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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by crushedout on July 19, 2005, at 20:57:14
In reply to Anytime » crushedout, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2005, at 20:55:00
Posted by thuso on July 19, 2005, at 22:09:00
In reply to Admin addiction, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2005, at 20:17:54
> And general poster to poster friendly advice, not directed to anyone but rather to everyone. Dr. Bob hasn't hit the boards yet. Does anyone have anything they'd like to amend before he does?
>I was wondering why it was so quiet on the Admin board. I'm really curious to see his reaction to all that was said and what actions he takes. So many posts have been made on Admin since he last posted, I wonder how long it will take him to read them all. Poor guy!!! hahaha!
Posted by alexandra_k on July 20, 2005, at 1:21:33
In reply to Re: Admin addiction » Dinah, posted by thuso on July 19, 2005, at 22:09:00
I like admin too.
Sometimes it worries me a little how much.
Sometimes I think it detracts me from the purpose of the boards...
Sometimes I worry about how upset I can get over there sometimes.
Sometimes I think it is a good thing. I'm learning stuff over there. I really believe that.
Balance I suppose...
Posted by greyskyeyes on July 20, 2005, at 12:39:01
In reply to Admin addiction, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2005, at 20:17:54
Yeah, for me it was like this phase I went through when I watched "Days of Our Lives" (apologies to any soap opera watchers, I mean no offense!). I was a bit embarrassed that I did it and I found the whole situation ludicrous yet I couldn't turn away from the plot twists as they grew exponentially weirder...
Lucky for me I'm such a rabbit when it comes to confrontation, otherwise I would have lept boldly into the fray.
Posted by partlycloudy on July 20, 2005, at 13:10:38
In reply to Re: Admin addiction, posted by greyskyeyes on July 20, 2005, at 12:39:01
It's the only time in my life I've been grateful for being laid up on the sofa recovering from a root canal. Who knows the trouble I could have put myself into?? Instead I opted for physical pain and drug induced relief. Reading text on a screen was wayyyy beyond my abilities!!
I'm quite the sucker when it comes to passionate discourses on that board. I am learning when to turn away, though. Most times I find that my attempts at responding to posts that I find inflammatory turn out less than satisfactory.
pc
Posted by Jazzed on July 20, 2005, at 16:00:42
In reply to I've become an Admin junkie, posted by crushedout on July 19, 2005, at 13:56:42
>
> I used to be a psychology board junkie but now the only board I'm really hooked on is Admin. I don't know what happened to me. Maybe this post belongs on the Substance Abuse board.I'll have to check it out again. Last time I went there it seemed like either an argument in every post or it went over my little puddin' head! LOL
Glad you're feeling in control of those babbly addictions! LOL
Jazzy
Posted by crushedout on July 20, 2005, at 16:15:19
In reply to Re: I've become an Admin junkie » crushedout, posted by Jazzed on July 20, 2005, at 16:00:42
oh, it's an argument bonanza jazzy. that's what makes it so compelling. many people (myself included) are attracted to conflict. i guess cuz it's not boring. and it can be a real distraction. and also make us feel better about ourselves, the same way watching people humiliate themselves on jerry springer might.i dunno, i'm just throwing these ideas out there.
actually that's an interesting thing for us to brainstorm: why do we like admin/conflict?
i think dinah and others have touched on this already.
Posted by Dinah on July 22, 2005, at 12:28:32
In reply to Re: I've become an Admin junkie » Jazzed, posted by crushedout on July 20, 2005, at 16:15:19
I told my therapist approximately the same thing I said in my post above. About how intense it is until you realize that very few things that happen there haven't happened a few times there already.
(P.S. This was sort of a segue into the session after a tough time getting there on both our parts. I didn't focus the session on Babble - this time.)
He told me about the concept of the drama triangle. How all a good drama needs is three parts, a victim, a perpetrator, and a rescuer. And how the parts can be fluid, so that a single person can move from one to another over time, then back again.
I'm not sure *all* drama is that simple, but it does sound familiar as far as Admin goes. Without naming names or anything, what do y'all think?
How about you, Dr. Bob?
Posted by greyskyeyes on July 22, 2005, at 15:07:31
In reply to Drama triangle, posted by Dinah on July 22, 2005, at 12:28:32
> He told me about the concept of the drama triangle. How all a good drama needs is three parts, a victim, a perpetrator, and a rescuer. And how the parts can be fluid, so that a single person can move from one to another over time, then back again.
>
> I'm not sure *all* drama is that simple, but it does sound familiar as far as Admin goes. Without naming names or anything, what do y'all think?Yes, that describes Admin perfectly! I'd say in many cases the perpetrator shifts (or tries to) to the victim role. The victim becomes a rescuer to a rescuer who in turn has become the victim. And, particularly in the last couple of days' drama, there are a LOT of rescuers here! (a tribute to Babblers, I suppose... guess we're all a lot of wannabe white knights :) )
Posted by Atticus on July 22, 2005, at 15:26:53
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » Dinah, posted by greyskyeyes on July 22, 2005, at 15:07:31
Do you think that Bob sometimes (purposefully or inadvertantly) plays the part of casting director for these three roles by giving an answer that seems not to be an answer at all, by allowing hostile exchanges to go on for far too long before jumping in, or by using what seem to be inconsistent criteria for PBCs and blocks? I can't say one way or another for certain, obviously. It just strikes me that if someone appears to be more interested in group interaction dynamics than in individuals, then that someone would find it very interesting to goose someone into switching roles in mid play. Simply a thought. Atticus
Posted by Dinah on July 22, 2005, at 16:03:11
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » greyskyeyes, posted by Atticus on July 22, 2005, at 15:26:53
I don't think so. I just think that even Dr. Bob has a real life. As much as we'd like him to be sitting in his office waiting for us.
And that's why I didn't step in on a more timely basis as well.
Posted by Dinah on July 22, 2005, at 16:09:06
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » Dinah, posted by greyskyeyes on July 22, 2005, at 15:07:31
Well, this isn't the first time, and won't be the last. I just thought it was an interesting way to view the dynamic.
Since we were in private, we were of course able to name names. But we concentrated on me (naturally enough). In particular my windmill tilting tendencies and my recognition that trying to help often backfires. I tend to see my backing off as a wry recognition of my impotence rather than a lack of caring. But my therapist sees it as a healthy backing out of the triangle which is more likely to help everyone than trying to help would be.
I'm still not absolutely sure of that. I've been on the receiving end of kind words of support too many times to think they are better left unsaid.
Maybe it depends on the form of "rescue" offered?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 22, 2005, at 23:13:33
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » greyskyeyes, posted by Dinah on July 22, 2005, at 16:09:06
i think there is a difference between 'helping' and 'rescuing'.
like there is a difference between 'having a hard time with something' and 'playing the victim role'.
i've noticed... when people turn on each other dr-bob often allows (perhaps even mildly encourages) us to join together and turn him into scapegoat instead.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 22, 2005, at 23:18:46
In reply to Drama triangle, posted by Dinah on July 22, 2005, at 12:28:32
ok... so i'm not too keen on the old drama triangle... one of my old p-docs tried to suggest that playing one of those corners might just be the story of my life. and in round about our second session together! ok... so it was probably just one of those bad timing things and i should probably think on it a little more...
i believe i said something like 'well, thats all very well but if you don't know how to play it differently then what are you supposed to do?' and maybe that is it. i think there are typical patterns of thinking / perceiving / responding that are associated with each of those roles. so when you see yourself get into those patterns you can recognise it.
but then what are you supposed to do?
you need an alternative conceptualisation in order to be able to jump off.
otherwise... there is little to do but to shut the hell up.
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 4:59:37
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 22, 2005, at 23:18:46
The terminology is, perhaps, unfortunate. That is to be sure.
For example, I don't really see myself as a "victim" here at Babble, although I certainly remember it from middle school. I also remember, with disapproval, the kids who were afraid to help me publicly for fear of becoming a victim themselves. I also sort of remember that my tendency to stand with those even more victimized than myself in middle school brought down a lot on my own head.
Nevertheless, I see the dynamic he's talking about at Babble. Not that I would call anyone a perpetrator or victim. That's a bit extreme. But I suppose theories tend to be a bit ummm... stark, so as to better make their point.
Hmmm... In civility terms...
Someone (and the someone could include Dr. Bob) is the subject of an uncivil post, say without provocation. Any number of people on Babble will try to help that poster in different ways. Some of the ways involve being uncivil themselves (and becoming up for admin actions themselves). In addition, the target of the original uncivil post might respond uncivilly, and may also try to defend the posters who came to his/her defense. Some or all of the people trying to help will become targets of incivility themselves.
So without using the original unfortunate terminology, a good drama on Admin usually (but not always) involves a post percieved as uncivil, the subject of the uncivil post, and nearly always given the generous nature of Babble, defenders of the recipient of the uncivil post. In the course of the drama, the recipient and those defending the recipient can stray outside the civility lines themselves, and the recipient can defend the defenders, and the defenders can become recipients of uncivil posts. And outside of uncivil, there are also those not uncivil posts that still make one feel quite awful.
There, that takes the prejudicial language out of the original theory while maintaining the spirit. Because I certainly don't think of perpetrators and victims, even though I do think of rescuers. :)
I think my therapist was using this theory because he believes that my desire to rescue makes me a likely recipient of incivility, and is not always particularly appreciated by either the recipient or the poster of a post that falls outside the civility guidelines. And that moreover, giving into the urge to rescue merely prolongs and escalates the drama, which isn't in anyone's best interests.
As I said, I'm not sure I agree with all of it. I find it very hard to say nothing at all when I see someone hurting, even if it does escalate the situation. And I have a lot of resentment towards the bystanders in Middle School.
He says he's brought it up before, and maybe he was, but I wasn't ready to hear it. Because I don't remember it.
But I do see the dynamic at play in Babble on occasion, in escalating situations. And I wonder if some of the excitement on the Admin board could be contained by keeping the dynamic in mind.
Mind you, I certainly understand (most) sides of the triangle and sympathize with the goals.
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 5:02:18
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 4:59:37
In bringing the theory from my therapist, I kept the original language he used, because I was thinking about it purely theoretically.
However, I can see that the language is rather prejudicial, and I should have amended it to Babble friendly terms.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 18:54:54
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 4:59:37
> Someone (and the someone could include Dr. Bob) is the subject of an uncivil post, say without provocation.
Yeah. Though typically that someone genuinely believes they are the victim. They are the victim and so they are justified in being the perpetrator in attacking someone else...
>Any number of people on Babble will try to help that poster in different ways. Some of the ways involve being uncivil themselves (and becoming up for admin actions themselves).
So in attempting to rescue the victim they perpetrate against the perpetrator. And thus the original perpetrator who already felt victimised now comes to feel even more victimised - and the situation escalates...
>In addition, the target of the original uncivil post might respond uncivilly,
Confirming the perpetrators perception of the perpetrator being a victim
>and may also try to defend the posters who came to his/her defense.
To protect them. Perhaps by persecuting / being uncivil in the process.
And so the situation escalates.
Then along comes Bob / Dinah and out come the PBC's / blockings. Everyone gets to feel like the victim and turns against the 'arbitrary and capricious civility rules'.
Sigh.
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:16:47
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 18:54:54
Hmmm... Yes, I had forgotten that essential fact.
And that the person who perceives themselves as a victim might be posting to Dr. Bob in order to "rescue" others, so that they see themselves both as victim and rescuer.
It's quite a theory.
What's the counter to it again?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 19:28:10
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:16:47
> What's the counter to it again?
I guess we can only take responsibility for our own responses.
What are you supposed to do differently???
Being civil probably helps.
And trying not to type-cast oneself / others.These are mental health boards.
Sometimes people have episodes.
I don't know.
Try to understand from their pov I guess.
So that one doesn't have the urge to typecast them and respond to the typecast by playing a typecast of ones own...
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:50:24
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 19:28:10
Maybe just keeping the dynamic in mind, and being open to examining our own roles in it might help.
I swear I don't remember him bringing it up before, but he swears he did. Maybe I wasn't ready to examine my role in it before.
I had sooo much anger toward bystanders that I couldn't even hear the possibility that bystanders might be doing the right thing.
Come to think of it, I still have that problem.
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:54:55
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:50:24
Bystanders from middle school I mean.
I told my son that there were probably a dozen girls who were actively mean to me. Another dozen that were actively nice, though none publicly while I was under attack. And the rest were bystanders. But it wasn't until years and years later that I was able to sort out in my mind the girls who were mean, and the bystanders. They all blurred into one mass of cruelty in my mind.
And I'm still not sure the teachers didn't bear as much blame as the bullies. I think I still see them as being as cruel as the bullies because they could have chosen to do something and didn't.
I'm still talking middle school, of course. :)
But now I'm talking myself back into the rescuing role, just when I'm slowly realizing how little I am able to help in that role.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 20:39:23
In reply to Re: Drama triangle, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:54:55
> But now I'm talking myself back into the rescuing role, just when I'm slowly realizing how little I am able to help in that role.
You can't change someones situation (mostly)
You can't change how others respond to them (mostly)
But you can help them see what is going wrong (if they want to know)
Maybe...
I would think of that as helping rather than rescuing.
Every perpetrator requires a victim.
Feeling victimised is the usual justification for perpetrating.
Rescuing... I dunno.
I don't know much about that.
Except that one can't save other people
Just like how nobody can save us.
I don't know.
Thinking about my mother now.
My main persecutor.
I feel mad that people turned their backs on the situation and didn't get me the hell out of there. I feel mad (though a little less so) that people didn't try to help me.
my father
my teachers
the rest of my family
the world. basically.I guess it is one thing to make the situation better (which might have counted as rescuing)
Another thing to have spent some time with me. To have talked to me. To have tried to help me deal with the situation.I don't know.
I'm all confused now.
Not you.
Me.Um.
Can you block me???
I'm really enjoying these discussions but my deadline is looming and I really have to do some work now... Being addicted to babble isn't really a problem in my life... aside from deadlines. could you block me until Friday night??
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 20:44:53
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 20:39:23
Not allowed to block you.
But if you like, I'll ignore your posts. :)
Thanks for chatting. It was clarifying to me, on both boards.
(BTW, I'm angry for you too. Somebody *should* have done something.)
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 20:55:33
In reply to Re: Drama triangle » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 20:44:53
> Not allowed to block you.
:-(
Not even if I call you something uncivil???
<joke>
Ok. Self control...
I'm going now.(But I'll check the boards a little later no doubt)
sigh.
Posted by Jen Star on July 23, 2005, at 21:04:39
In reply to Re: Drama triangle, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:54:55
hi Dinah,
I had some kids who were very mean to me in grade school, too. They would make fun of my clothes, my family's car, and the neighborhood in which we lived. They made fun of the fact that I was the best student in the class.It was only a handful of kids, but like you I remembered it as being "everyone", probably b/c there was no one who ever stuck their neck out to stand up for me. I'm sure kids were scared to be singled out themselves, and maybe felt sorry for me, but couldn't/wouldn't say anything.
But I believe that the gradeschool treatment had huge ramifications on my behavior and development into the person I am today. I'm extremely welcoming and friendly and barrier-breaking to others IRL. I think it's b/c I hated being treated as an outsider, and so I try to help outsiders fit in where I can. I'm sure there are all kinds of other things at play too but that's certainly one of them!
And maybe that's part of the reason that I am who I am on babble, whatever that is. It's so hard for me to analyze myself and my behaviors here, even though it's easy for me to make assessments of others, and probably easy for others to make assessments of ME. But it's hard to see into myself.
Anyway, I think I sometimes act as victim, sometimes as helper in the drama triangle. I think I like to TRY to be the helper, whether or not i'm actually helpful, partially based on my childhood experiences and how I tried to make myself beat that experience by being the one to help otheres, rather than the one who needs to be helped.
Thanks for bringing up the triangle idea, Dinah. Lots of food for thought there...
JenStar
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