![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 56 to 80 of 80. Go back in thread:
Posted by fallsfall on September 20, 2003, at 17:39:01
In reply to octoprime, posted by kara lynne on September 20, 2003, at 16:27:36
"All signs point to a Dead End in my relationship; I doubt therapy will change that."
Why did you email him yesterday?
Posted by kara lynne on September 20, 2003, at 18:21:58
In reply to You know the answer » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 20, 2003, at 17:39:01
Because when he asked (emailed) if I wanted to talk last week I told him I thought I did. It was after that that he called. I'm confusing us both.
I'm going to go try and meditate--something I don't do very often. But I *really* want to call him right now, so I'm going to try that first. Then I have dinner plans with a friend, so that might get me through the night. Tomorrow I will look into finding a support group. I should have done that today, but I slept most of it away and then did errands.
Posted by fallsfall on September 20, 2003, at 21:40:59
In reply to Re: You know the answer, posted by kara lynne on September 20, 2003, at 18:21:58
Hope you had a nice dinner.
Don't call him.
Good luck finding a support group tomorrow.
(((((Kara)))))
Walk shepherdess walk
And I'll walk, too
We'll find the ram with the ebony horn
And the gold footed ewe.The lamb with fleece of silver
Like summer sea foam
And weather with a crystal bell
That leads us all home.So walk shephardess walk
And I'll walk too
And if we never find them
I won't mind shall you?Good night, Kara.
Posted by octopusprime on September 20, 2003, at 23:06:24
In reply to octoprime, posted by kara lynne on September 20, 2003, at 16:27:36
kara lynne,
please try to get some sleep. when a person hasn't slept, all judgement on life issues goes out the window. don't decide what to do about your ex until you are rested and have taken good care of yourself.
i'm glad you're going out with friends, meditating, etc. although they are poor replacements for what we have lost, they are indeed the nourishment for our souls as we travel through these difficult times.
i know how hard it is to let go. i understand why you are having trouble even though you call your relationship "a dead end". kara lynne, you have to live your own life as you see fit.
i'm going to keep asking you tough questions though, as you make decisions moving forward. kara lynne, you are tired and hurting. please give yourself a rest. i'm sure you have an idea of just how wrenching it will be (or how wrenching it is) to talk to your ex, with or without a third party.
please reconsider this. i think you should save your emotional and physical energy for kara lynne. you're tired and hurting. you need all the resources you can get your hands on to help get well.
Posted by kara lynne on September 20, 2003, at 23:21:50
In reply to Re: octoprime, posted by octopusprime on September 20, 2003, at 23:06:24
octoprime,
It's a good thing to consider. But about that sleep-I can't seem to get enough. I just truly don't know anymore whether talking to him would be harder than this is. I do think it might make me feel better if I talk to him and I'm in a stronger place.Thank you. I like tough questions. Please keep asking them.
How are you doing?
Posted by bozeman on September 21, 2003, at 0:39:05
In reply to Re: octoprime, posted by kara lynne on September 20, 2003, at 23:21:50
1) He's just as addicted to destructive behaviour as you are
2) You wouldn't be doing either one of you any favors by prolonging the agony via calling, taking his calls, emailing, reading/returning his emails, going to joint therapy, or even thinking about him any more than you positively absolutely have to
3) If he "ain't got it" in the last five-plus years, he "ain't about to get it" now
4) Joint therapy? Sounds like another excuse for him to project his failings on you. He needs therapy, all right, but on his own, without you handy to blame for his shortcomings.
5) You deserve better
6) Alone is better than a relationship that tears you down and rips you apart
8) You are doing so much better than you think you are
9) Did I mention you deserve better?
10) You are trying to be responsible for yourself and your effect on others -- this is part of why it's so hard for you to let go (the thought that maybe there was something else you could have done.) He's doing everything in his power to shift responsibility anywhere, everywhere, but to himself. These philosophies are fundamentally incompatible because the two individuals involved will consistently bring out the worst in each other and harm each other, even if unintentionally.
11) YOU DESERVE BETTER!!!
12) If I (the Queen of What-Else-Could-I-Have-Done? and But-Maybe-He-Isn't-As-Big-A-Jerk-As-I-Think) can steel myself to NOT call, not take calls, not go to dinner, not cave in, not buy back into his grandiose bullcrap, then there is Hope, you keep after it, girlfriend, there's Hope for You Too
13) Ice cream really does make things better
14) I've never stopped thinking about you, even though I still don't have a computer of my own
15) Lattes also really do make things better
16) SSRI's (when they work) also make things better because they (when they work) give you a break from your own relentlessness
17) You deserve a guy who treasures the sweet soul you are -- not one who tries to twist you to feed his ego and dodge reality (however surreptitiously)
18) You ARE loved and appreciated, by people who are capable of it. (we just can't reach you right now. :-) He is not capable of either loving or appreciating you, because he doesn't love and appreciate himself. Don't torture yourself by trying to "fix" what you'll never be able to fix -- his internal insecurities. The pain of the loss (the loss is real, even if he isn't) -- the pain won't stop for a while, maybe a long while, but don't make it worse by digging the wound open again. Let him go. Do whatever you have to, play music real loud (Tina Turner works for me, but everyone's different), go for a walk, go shopping (window shopping if you have to), watch comedy movie marathons until you fall asleep (one of my favorites.) Bury your face in kitty fur and listen to loud purring (unconditional love in a fur coat.) Take bubble baths and get massages, or massage your own feet (sounds crazy, but it triggers the "I feel loved" circuit for a lot of people). Spend lots of time with a four-legged furball (being needed and depended-upon does wonders for me, but everybody's different, I suppose.)Take care of YOU, sweetie, and let him fend for himself. He's in your past, not your future.
(((kara lynne)))
Love,
B.
Posted by kara lynne on September 21, 2003, at 3:24:54
In reply to Kara Lynne . . . a few thoughts, posted by bozeman on September 21, 2003, at 0:39:05
My long lost love! Where have you been?! I'll *buy* you a computer! Just stay here with me!
I have buried myself in fur until my sinuses can take no more. Then I bury myself some more. I like that massaging your own feet triggers 'I am loved'. It also gets those reflexology points.
I would ask you more questions about your relationship because I identifed so much, but I don't know when you'll be back. You were indeed able to withstand the grandiose bullcr*p? So you don't think it means anything that he says he's sorry, and that he loves me? That he goes to 12 step meetings? But then he talks about his parties with all the industry people over so they can see he lives in a really 'good looking' house and his business will profit? Those parties that I was never good enough for, that business that he said I was a 'detriment' to. I keep wanting to go to him to pick pieces of myself back up from the floor of his mind.
I'm busted--you got me. I was right on my way out psychically, about to re-enter the house of Self Destruct, center stage. And yes, therapy does indeed "sound like another excuse for him to project his failings on me." boze, that was brilliant.
Tonight I was almost fooled. I really was beginning to think there was a chance. I don't know if that just means I've reached my pain threshold and can bear no more, or because I truly believe it. Why would he bother at all with me if he didn't love me? Or would it just be a scenario where we go to counseling and I mention that we never got married, and he lists all my shortcomings as the reasons why. And lists all the ways in which I would have to change to accomodate his lifestyle? And then it will become all about his life once more and I will die on a diet of crumbs instead of finding true love, or at least my own life. It could very well be.
For a minute (when I thought the SSRI was working) I considered that maybe it was possible to forgive someone for saying those vicious things to me, if he were truly sorry and demonstrated enough intention to heal things between us (which of course he hasn't). And I began to wonder how much my depression made things worse between us. But I think you have a good point in that I am trying to look at how my actions affect us both, and he is trying to look at how my actions affect him.
It was just getting to the point that life without him was almost as bad as life with him because of the obsession. If I can't stop thinking about him all the time what's the point? Tonight I was considering---just *considering* what it would be like to date him. But then we got to such a low that I truly don't know if anyone with a modicum of self esteem would ever consider it--and I'm trying to act like a person who has some. Katherine Hepburn put up with Spencer Tracy's abusive tirades. Who's to say, really? My counselor with her southern upbringing, would not in a million years for a million dollars ever give the time of day to someone who said to me what he did. I thought I felt that way too.
It's easier when it's black or white. Although he apologizes, I guess he just doesn't see things the same way I do. I don't think I could expect to be treated with the kind of respect I would like, but then I don't know if that is a realistic expectation anymore.
I don't want to sell out. I still like the idea of doing another round as a stronger, better me, but that wouldn't happen if his M.O. is to keep me insecure. Maybe not even consciously--it just may be that what you see is what you get with him. And what kind of motivation is that for me anyway? What part of me wants to go back: my heart? my ego? What can I possibly hope to resolve with this man? And yet he is saying he wants to. Have I already given him too much of myself even by doing this? Aarrggh.
-Unconditional love in a fur coat-.
What could beat that?It was so good to hear from you, and thank you for every word.
((((((bozeman)))))))
Posted by octopusprime on September 21, 2003, at 6:32:08
In reply to Re: octoprime, posted by kara lynne on September 20, 2003, at 23:21:50
well kara lynne it's 4:19 am on sunday morning and i'm starting to write this post.
i'm having many of the same pangs you are this weekend. gotta call, he said he loves me, he wouldn't want me to hurt. gotta call, sleeping alone is not doing it for me. gotta call, don't know how to explain to well-meaning family and friends why he's gone.
but i didn't call.
this scab i'm not picking.
it hurts, i mean, my heart physically feels heavy right now.
but then i think - what would i get from talking to him? more hurt. what if he rejects me again? can't face that, so i won't call. do i really want to carry on a relationship with somebody that would leave me at the drop of a hat without talking about it? no. so what would calling him achieve? nothing. so i tough it out.
i'm throwing money at my bad feelings in hopes that they will go away. on friday i left work early to go for a hike around a lake. yesterday i spoiled my cousin's kids rotten. tomorrow i have an aromatherapy massage. tuesday is my first drum lesson.
i was thinking about this when i was walking around the lake. i'm dying to call my ex, find out what the heck he was thinking and to see if he's miserable without me and thinks he made a huge mistake. but i would sabotage my own efforts to heal and get over him. i've decided to give myself some time to build a new life for me. right now i'm still mourning the old, and i haven't had time to construct anything new. i think two months, three months, is a good no-contact timeframe for me. i need to give myself a shot.
((kara lynne))
i hope you slept better.
talk to your doc and tweak your meds if you're not feeling rested.
Posted by fallsfall on September 21, 2003, at 8:11:41
In reply to Bozeman!!!, posted by kara lynne on September 21, 2003, at 3:24:54
You asked a question: Why would he bother at all with me if he didn't love me?
Love is not the only reason that people want to be together.
I think that you fill a need for him. He needs to be powerful, so he orders you around. He needs to be wanted, so he strings you along. He needs to be better, so he puts you down.
Love is when you want to enhance the other person's life. He only wants to enhance his own. That is not love.
You know how to love him. He doesn't know how to love you.
You need to wait until you find someone who can love you. That someone is waiting for you.
Posted by fallsfall on September 21, 2003, at 8:14:08
In reply to Re: octoprime, posted by octopusprime on September 21, 2003, at 6:32:08
Good for you, Octoprime.
It is so hard and hurts so much, and it takes so much willpower. When you get to the other side you will know that you have done the right thing. Take care of yourself (drum lessons sounds Great!). Life is better on the other side.
Posted by Dinah on September 21, 2003, at 10:04:18
In reply to Kara Lynne . . . a few thoughts, posted by bozeman on September 21, 2003, at 0:39:05
Posted by octopusprime on September 21, 2003, at 15:04:44
In reply to Re: octoprime » octopusprime, posted by fallsfall on September 21, 2003, at 8:14:08
((fallsfall)) thanks
how in the heck did you get to be so wise in these matters? i hope it's not through horrible experience ...
Posted by kara lynne on September 21, 2003, at 15:20:13
In reply to fallsfall is wise, posted by octopusprime on September 21, 2003, at 15:04:44
Hope you're feeling better today. Good for you for not calling! See, now he realizes the gem he lost--exactly what my ex doesn't seem to notice.
You're a lot stronger than I am at the moment. I feel like I fell off the wagon or something. I did do 3 months without seeing him and then I had my 'slip'--wanting this current contact. I do feel like the distance had made me a little stronger than I would be otherwise though, and hopefully I won't stay here (wherever this place is) long.
Thanks for being here.
Posted by kara lynne on September 21, 2003, at 15:29:54
In reply to Re: Bozeman is wise » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 21, 2003, at 8:11:41
and octopi, and everyone else who has posted.
-Love is when you want to enhance the other person's life. He only wants to enhance his own-
Beautifully put, as usual. And a good answer to my question, because I am really grappling with it. He says he's sorry, that he loves me. I have to ask myself if that's enough--if anything is different. I'm guessing we could 'date' if I agreed to. I could come over to his grand new digs, he'd take me to dinner, we'd both be on our best behaviour and we'd do fine like that. For the rest of our lives. I think that's about as far as he can go.
Maybe this idea of someone wanting more with me is just not going to happen. It is possible, isn't it? I know, if I keep acting like I don't deserve it it won't happen.
Back to bed.
dreaming of lullabyes
Posted by octopusprime on September 21, 2003, at 19:55:43
In reply to octopi, posted by kara lynne on September 21, 2003, at 15:20:13
kara lynne, thank you for your good thoughts. i'm not feeling particularly well today. i've got a bit of a headache and i've honed lazy slothdom to an artform. not predisposed to go anywhere or do anything. figure i'll try again tomorrow.
see, here's the magic of not calling him. i don't know if he misses me. i don't know what he's doing. but since i don't have to see him or talk to him, it really doesn't matter how he feels any more. so i project onto him - he's miserable without me! feels like a heel! he's realized what a huge mistake he made! and since i don't call him, my pronouncements are as good as true. although it doesn't cook me dinner at night, it feels better than the truth, which is probably less flattering to my ego.
kara lynne i have reasoned out for you my choice for non-contact. you have made the choice for contact. i hope you understand why you have made that choice, and if contact for whatever reason feels worse to you than non-contact, please take steps to stop.
you know your own heart. don't forget to keep healing for yourself, and not for him. taking pains to track his movements or thoughts detracts from tracking your own and making sure you are moving forward.
kara lynne, you are strong. you were in it 5 years to my barely 1. and i've had experience in being dumped, maybe perversely it gets easier? bleh. keep moving forward and doing what's best for you.
Posted by fallsfall on September 21, 2003, at 21:43:34
In reply to Re: Bozeman is wise/ fallsfall is too, posted by kara lynne on September 21, 2003, at 15:29:54
>>Maybe this idea of someone wanting more with me is just not going to happen. It is possible, isn't it? I know, if I keep acting like I don't deserve it it won't happen.
Give me one (any one) reason that I should think that someone else will not love you and make you happy in the future (how old are you?). P.S. telling me that he didn't make you happy is not a reason. All that says is that one person can't do it. There are 3,154,526,396 men in the world (and 3,154,526,397 women), so I guess you have 3,154,526,395 men to go (and however many women).
>>I could come over to his grand new digs, he'd take me to dinner, we'd both be on our best behaviour and we'd do fine like that. For the rest of our lives. I think that's about as far as he can go.
So your only goal in life is to go to dinner and be on your best behavior?
I'm a little confused, Kara. Are you talking/writing to him? Are you seeing him?
[P.S. I'm a little crabby tonight, so if this isn't particularly tactful, please forgive me...]
Posted by fallsfall on September 21, 2003, at 21:45:09
In reply to fallsfall is wise, posted by octopusprime on September 21, 2003, at 15:04:44
8 1/2 years of therapy.....
Posted by kara lynne on September 21, 2003, at 23:08:19
In reply to Re: Kara is wise, too » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 21, 2003, at 21:43:34
My age might be that reason!
fallsfall, I've written you at your other address. I hope it gets there...
Posted by kara lynne on September 23, 2003, at 15:36:41
In reply to kara might have been unwise./ fallsfall, posted by kara lynne on September 21, 2003, at 23:08:19
I can understand why no-one would want to read this. I'm passing out awards to anyone who will.
I had to seriously consider whether or not I wanted to get back with the ex. Sending the letter was good, but apparently it was not the closure letter I originally intended it to be. Instead it got me through to another level--of what I don't know.
So I had a moment. I felt good and strong and we talked--about the letter, about our feelings. It seemed to be a good conversation. He called the next day and said he was so encouraged that he wanted to see me. I left a message that I was busy--because I was too afraid. My moment of power had passed.
It's been 2 days and nothing. I was happier knowing I wanted to talk to him--at least I felt clear. But maybe this is where my thinking is off---he *did* ask to see me and I said no. Maybe I'm expecting too much and should have just gone with what he was offering, when he was offering it. Maybe this idea of being 'pursued' is romantic illusion. After all, we had an honest conversation and his message seemed heartfelt. And now I'm left to interpret the silence in 150 ways; silence that *I* initiated.
fallsfall reminded me of a most important point that we didn't discuss--him dealing with his verbal abuse if we ever did get back together. It's the 'I'm working on him and me and us and he's working on_____?' question.
In certain ways I feel better that we talked. To hear him you'd really believe that he loved me--until I don't hear from him for a few days, or until he can't squeak out a sentence with any commitment words without almost vomiting.
I know I have to focus on my own life. Like my counselor says, I have to be ok with or without him. That is key.
That is what I will take with me today.
Thank you.
I haven't thought of the award yet.
Posted by Tabitha on September 23, 2003, at 17:45:02
In reply to Words for the unwise?, posted by kara lynne on September 23, 2003, at 15:36:41
I read your post-- and not just for the prize.
So you may go another round with this guy. Or not. I know how agonizing the struggle can be. Try to be gentle on yourself.
Posted by kara lynne on September 23, 2003, at 18:03:12
In reply to Re: Words for the unwise?, posted by Tabitha on September 23, 2003, at 17:45:02
Thanks. My prize is that people will still talk to me.
Posted by fallsfall on September 23, 2003, at 22:21:37
In reply to Re: Words for the unwise?, posted by kara lynne on September 23, 2003, at 18:03:12
Yeah! Kara's talking to me!
I don't yet understand how things are "worked through" in therapy. Your issues with your ex relate back to your parents. I think that you need to start finding out how they relate and then do whatever the magic thing is that therapists do when you "work through". I think that you will experience the pain of being apart from your ex until you do that.
I am going through the same process with my old therapist. She "disengaged" from me (seemed bored, didn't initiate anything etc.) the same way my mom did (she doesn't understand emotions). I'm seeing the connection, and I understand why my therapist's behavior hurts me so much (she was finally giving me the nurturing I wanted from my mother - but then she stopped). I don't know what the next step is. Last session we talked about my therapist and what went on between us. I see him again on Thursday. I'll tell you if I know more then!
It is so hard. But this really isn't about your ex - he just happens to be in the right place.
(((((Kara)))))
P.S. Don't call him. Think about it some more first.
Posted by kara lynne on September 24, 2003, at 0:47:17
In reply to Re: Words for the unwise? » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 23, 2003, at 22:21:37
I meant that's *my* prize, not the prize I'm giving for the people who are still talking to me.
Thank you for telling me not to call him tonight fallsfall. One night at a time. I was going to, but I came here first. I'm glad you're still cheering.
I was supposed to have my last therapy session with that guy today, but I had to reschedule because of the job interview--that he had set up--which was cancelled.
So now I need a therapist to 'work things through', I guess.
thanks.
Posted by Kirbdawg on November 16, 2003, at 20:43:16
In reply to I said that wrong/ fallsfall, posted by kara lynne on September 24, 2003, at 0:47:17
At 17, I fell in love with a fifteen year old girl. Over a period of 3 years, we lived together with her family. I loved her very much. Then... she told me one day that she needed her space... it was the last time I ever held her again.
A couple of years later, I was still miserable,... she was still a part of me. I ran off to the Marine Corps... spent six years there. I eventually got married to a woman I didn't love, got two kids with the package, and had two of my own. After 9 years of being faithfull to a slut wife, she ran off with one of her friend's x-husband. It wasn't all bad... my career was a success... only because I loved it more than the drama waiting for me when I got home.
My x-wife, fucked away all my friends. She took my house, my children, and what little dignity I had left. But, no matter what life drags me through.... it's still that little 15 year old girl that has hurt me the worst.
I still love her so much... even now,15 years latter. I think my life would be perfect, both our lives, if she had only loved me for a day longer.
I'm 34 now, broke, completely alone, and still crying,... it's just me and a picture of her I found at classmates.com. If I had to relive my life again, I would have killed my self right after we broke up and saved myself all these years of grief and hopeing. I should kill myself now... but there's no one left in my life to miss me.
I love you Mendi... there hasn't been a day that goes by that I don't think about you. I'm still in love with you...
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 17, 2003, at 3:07:16
In reply to ... » kara lynne, posted by Kirbdawg on November 16, 2003, at 20:43:16
> My x-wife, f*cked away all my friends.
I'm sorry about that, and about being such a prude, but please don't use language that could offend others:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
This is the end of the thread.
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