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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 80. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kara lynne on September 14, 2003, at 21:25:14
Since I know more people here than at babble grief I'm going to post this here.
I wrote a letter to the ex and he wrote back, finally acknowledging that there is no hope. Last night I dreamt he came to me instead and asked me to marry him.
I don't know what's going on--it's been 3 months and I feel worse than ever. I don't feel a bit stronger. To top it off he said he had to go because he had an interview to give, but that he had a 'lump in his throat' and hoped he would do ok. That's a perfect illustration--he could jot out a letter but had to get back to work, the truly important thing in his life.
We weren't good together, but I still feel like I want to be with him. I know him--his life is filled with people and things so that he doesn't have to confront himself. I know he'll be busy, and have many opportunities to be with women who admire him. How do I stop torturing myself with this?
His letter of finality opened the wound back up. He displayed his typical passivity, acting like there was *nothing that he could have done* to make anything better, but acting so sad that it is over. He would have anybody believing that he ever tried--and making me feel crazy because I know in my heart he didn't. And it's impossible for me not to take that as total and complete rejection. My counselor said it is not a rejection, but an admission that he cannot do any better. I don't see it that way; I think if the 'prize' were a good enough one, he would have worked a little harder.
He says 'we' can't get over our anger. Why would he be angry--because I wanted to get married after five years? Because he felt pressured around the issue of children which he never wanted? But then he was always angry--that I never liked his 'work' enough, even though he spent all his time working to the complete detriment of the relationship. He spent all the time after we moved in together doing drugs, but he'll never take responsibility for how much that ruined things between us. Only that I couldn't be supportive enough to him, or involve myself with his friends and work associates more. I guess he'll find someone who will.
And what...I will sit here and rot for the rest of my life? I know I have to push myself, but I have been unbelievably tired lately. I know it's emotional, but it's also physical. My blood pressure is really low, my heart rate is low (not from exercising). I have no energy and I want to sleep all the time. It's a major struggle for me to think about going to pick up food for myself. It's exhausting for me to even think about going to a doctor.
Ok, well it's said and done. It's over. It's over, but it will never be over in my heart.
Posted by kara lynne on September 14, 2003, at 22:54:49
In reply to I feel like I want to die without him., posted by kara lynne on September 14, 2003, at 21:25:14
Where are you? I really feel like calling him. I am trying to talk myself out of it. I feel like I have to have *his* love and only his love--which is of course unattainable. It is probably the root of all my pathos.
I know I shouldn't call him when I'm feeling this needy--I know it's the addictive nature of this dysfunctional relationship. And yet I was so close a little while ago--I just wanted to call and hear his voice, and get him to say something caring, and everything would be ok again. I had to tell myself that it was not ok when I was with him, I was miserable. I was miserable, I was miserable, I was miserable. WHY then, do I want to call him so much?
Maybe I will try to write you at your other address. Thank you for listening.
Posted by fallsfall on September 14, 2003, at 23:04:48
In reply to I feel like I want to die without him., posted by kara lynne on September 14, 2003, at 21:25:14
You are right, your heart will always remember. But you need to move on.
Do you have stuff around that reminds you of him? Pictures, knick-knacks, dishes, linens, books, CDs, furniture, etc? This might be a good time to remove them from your life.
KNOW that you are lovable. It is so obvious to me that you are lovable. If it is hard for you to see, please ask me.
KNOW that you are lovable.
Choose something that you've always wanted to do (I did a Cake Decorating class), not something that requires a big commitment - 1 session, 4 sessions. Maybe going to a live play. Something that you can plan, look forward to, and then enjoy. You can plan it for 6 or 8 weeks out if you are afraid you won't have the energy for it.
Find a new therapist. We can talk about this on Psychological Babble. Do you have any prospects?
Know that you are lovable.
Don't call him.
Know that you are lovable.
Peppermint Stick with Hot Fudge, Whipped Cream, Nuts and a Cherry (the one with 5 scoops, not 3).
I know it is hard. Even though I know I won't go back to my old therapist, I was missing her something fierce tonight. Knowing that the relationship is DONE is important. It doesn't stop the missing, but, at least for me, it helps me stay more (not completely, but more) realistic.
Buy that Teddy Bear.
Posted by Tabitha on September 14, 2003, at 23:06:09
In reply to fallsfall?, posted by kara lynne on September 14, 2003, at 22:54:49
Hi KL, see if this helps.. do you ever try to talk to your own little girl self? She's gotten the message that she's not OK, that if she were only better, he would have tried harder, so there must be something wrong with her. She thinks it's her fault he left, because she's not good enough, and she's desperate to change that. She just wants to feel good enough and lovable. You can tell her this.. tell her it's not her fault she left, tell her you don't blame her, and that you'll take care of her and love her all the time, no matter if there's a man in your lives or not. Picture holding her and comforting her. Only you can soothe her pain right now. Calling the 'ex' won't do it. She needs you.
Posted by octopusprime on September 14, 2003, at 23:29:21
In reply to I feel like I want to die without him., posted by kara lynne on September 14, 2003, at 21:25:14
kara lynne -
don't call him!
call the pizza or sushi or indian food delivery person instead for a meal. when it's too hard to pick up food, that's when it's time for delivery. order enough for leftovers.i'm not sure if you are at all a spiritual person, but it's time to call upon any or all guiding spirits for strength. you are on the right path, even though it hurts and it feels like you are going to die and you don't know where the end is in sight.
i will be asking for you, for an end to your suffering and a sign that there is light at the end of the tunnel for you. there are creatures of beauty and grace in the universe, you are one of them. if you can visit a place where there is beauty and stillness, a garden or a park, it might help remind you.
you can't change him! please don't ask what you can do to change him, you can't. be sad and grieve, it hurts. you did nothing wrong. you were yourself. in time you will give yourself to somebody who can give you what *you* need.
peace to you
Posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 0:01:47
In reply to Re: fallsfall?, posted by Tabitha on September 14, 2003, at 23:06:09
Yes it does feel that way. I don't know if it's the child or the adult or both, but I feel like if only I had been better he would have tried harder. Isn't that true though? I keep thinking about when times were better, the first time he told me that he loved me, the way he touched my hair. And all I can think is that he will be doing that to someone else. And now I'm just older and even that is wrong--you know? It's not ok for women to get older in this world.
But the child inside is feeling quite desperate; I want to drive over to his house--the great house I would be living in right now if I hadn't done something so wrong, or just been an innately unloveable person. I was reading over some of our early emails after the break up and he said he loved me, even though I made it very difficult for people to love me because of my (I think he said accusing, or something). But he did used to say toward the end that it was so difficult to love me, as if it were my fault. And I do think I got that message from my parents, that only they would ever love me--as trying as it was--as I was just so difficult.
So yes, I do believe that I am unloveable. I don't understand why he wouldn't fight for me. I have to find a way to fight for myself anyway, even in the face of that. This little girl does not think she can love herself if she is not loved by him--maybe I can stop abandoning her, now that it has come to light. Thank you for reminding me that she needs that before anything.
Posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 0:20:32
In reply to Re: I feel like I want to die without him. » kara lynne, posted by octopusprime on September 14, 2003, at 23:29:21
Thank you for your beautiful post. We've never had any contact and I appreciate it so, that you would give me such support. I don't have words to tell you how much your words meant. I am a spiritual person at heart, but I am finding it so excruciatingly difficult to believe in any higher power these days. I don't understand this degree of relentless emotional pain. I just don't feel like I can endure it any more. I know there are people who suffer more than I do, I don't mean to sound self indulgent.
And you're right, I still am holding out hope, and wishing I could change him. Or that he would want to change. Or that I could change so that he would love me.
I am grieving again like I did when we first broke up. I guess that's what I don't understand--it feels like it's endless.
Thank you for telling me not to call him--I need to hear that, as you might have picked up.
Thank you so much. Oh how I wish to know those guides.
Posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 0:34:42
In reply to Re: I feel like I want to die without him. » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 14, 2003, at 23:04:48
Thank you fallsfall. I do need to move on. It is something I have never learned to do well--let go and move on. I honestly don't think I've ever really let go of anything, as sick as that sounds, and with as much self awareness as I have--or at least tried to have.
Thank you for saying I am loveable. I will try to say the words even if I don't believe them. I don't understand why he wouldn't love me if I am loveable.
I didn't know that you ended the relationship with your old therapist that recently. You have done really well and it's an inspiration to me. I am going to look into other prospects and I will let you know on therapy babble.
I just sometimes wonder in the deepest, most broken part of my being, if I can ever really get well. There is something so old and cobwebby in there that does not believe it-- a shadow-self, standing frozen in some time warp, just waiting to die. And I really don't want to, fallsfall. I don't want to believe that, it's just coming up to rear its ugly head lately.
I am going to go eat the only paltry excuse for ice cream I have right now--orange sherbet.
I'm so glad you're here.
Posted by octopusprime on September 15, 2003, at 0:45:51
In reply to Re: I feel like I want to die without him. octopus, posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 0:20:32
kara lynne, you are welcome
i posted to you because i have been lurking and i read your story.i have ended a relationship recently, and my heart breaks for me and for you and for everybody that has loved and lost.
i'm typing these things for me and for you - in giving you strength i can give me strength.
i'm going to tell you one story before bedtime. last night i felt so weak and i wanted comfort from my ex. i was going to drive by his house, see if he was there, if i could talk to him. i stopped myself and went to the beach, at night, instead.
i sat by the waters edge. i tossed rocks into the water, a rock for something i loved or liked about him, a rock for something i didn't like.
and then i prayed to whoever might be up there for an end to suffering, and for guidance in my journey. i thought of me, of my grandfather who lost his wife, of my cousins who lost their parents, of everyone that loved and lost. and i cried.
when i finally looked up, i saw a heron about six feet away from me. i love those birds. they're beautiful, with the long necks. i thought to myself "it's a sign. a sign that there are creatures of beauty and grace in this world. and that when i am ready for them to appear, they will come to me"
and i went home and i was peaceful.
oh i cried today and i hurt, but there is peace.
i hope this is of comfort to you. peace, eat something, sleep well.
ps don't call
Posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 1:48:21
In reply to Re: I feel like I want to die without him. octopus » kara lynne, posted by octopusprime on September 15, 2003, at 0:45:51
Your story is a beautiful one, and comes as I am having to practically sit on my hands not to call him. I have been able to up until now, I don't know why this is so difficult tonight. I guess it's the finality.
You mean I shouldn't call him in utter desperation and beg for him to love me? I shouldn't interrogate him as to whether or not he is with someone else and go out of my mind with jealousy? I shouldn't drive over there and find him with her and stand before them a raving lunatic? And this is what I think I want to do.
I'm so impressed that you were able to find the beauty and grace within yourself last night, to handle your pain as you did. I will pray to find some of that myself.
Thank you for lurking and sharing your story with me. I hope you continue to post, you have someone here most interested in listening.
Posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 4:49:49
In reply to Re: I feel like I want to die without him. octopus, posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 1:48:21
I will try to remember what Tabitha said, that my little girl needs me right now, not a call to my ex.
I really don't understand what's compelling me tonight. Maybe there would be some benefit from my calling him if I want to this badly. On the other hand, considering it's almost 3am, maybe I should re-think the whole thing.
I just read an article about Kate Hepburn and Spencer Tracy. She said she put up with his drunken abusive tirades because she knew they belonged together. She considered every moment with him 'bliss'.
I didn't like the tirades. But I wonder if I dislike this missing him even more.
I'm sorry to everyone who's given me such thoughtful advice tonight that I'm still such a basket case. I'm just going to take a sleeping pill and pray to get through the rest of the night.
Posted by Susan J on September 15, 2003, at 7:51:13
In reply to 2:45 am, wanting to call him., posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 4:49:49
Hey, you. :-) I posted this on the *grief* board, too, but adding it here so you see it.
Don't call. :-) Perhaps his therapist is telling him it's *highly unrealistic* for the two of you to get back together because the therapist *knows* your ex isn't ready to be in *any* type of healthy relationship.....
And, I know this sounds goofy, but I swear it works for me. Keep repeating to yourself, you don't need him, you are wonderful without him, life will be wonderful without him, you don't need him, life is good, you don't need him.
I promise you, if you make this part of your *life tape* it will come true. Right now, you are dwelling on how much it hurts to not be with him, and the repetition of those thoughts, coupled with the painful emotions, just reinforces the bad feelings. Repeating to yourself that life will be good, that you are strong without him, that you don't need him, will replace the negative thoughts and start helping you feel better.
Hang in there. You are much stronger than you think...... :-)
Susan
Posted by fallsfall on September 15, 2003, at 8:42:46
In reply to 2:45 am, wanting to call him., posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 4:49:49
Kara,
I hope the sleeping pill worked. You can take sleeping pills at midnight, too. Or even 11PM...
(((((Kara)))))
You are lovable. But just because a person is lovable doesn't mean that *everybody* in the world is going to love that person. You don't love everyone. You love some people. You are closer to some people than you are to others. If you aren't close to someone, that doesn't make them unlovable. Haven't you noticed occasionally a very strange couple? What comes to mind (and understand that I am a nerd) is a really nerdy couple, and you say to yourself "Who would want him? Who would want her?", and then you realize that you might not want him, but she does. They are good for each other - they might not be good for anyone else, but they are good for each other.
So, if he doesn't love you that doesn't say anything about you. It says something about the fit between the two of you. You are still lovable, you just need to find the right person to love you.
Speaking of that... He made you miserable. He was not good for you. You deserve better.
Do not call him. Do not drive past his place. Do not email him. Do not stop by his work.
There are other people in the world. There are lots of people who will love you. Just not him (but since he makes you miserable, I think that is it OK that he doesn't love you).
There is nothing wrong with you.
If I knew we were on at the same time (at the top of this thread) I would have stayed up to talk to you.
Get some good ice cream.
Posted by octopusprime on September 15, 2003, at 10:45:35
In reply to Re: I feel like I want to die without him. octopus, posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 1:48:21
> Your story is a beautiful one, and comes as I am having to practically sit on my hands not to call him. I have been able to up until now, I don't know why this is so difficult tonight. I guess it's the finality.
((kara lynne))
It hurts so much. Like an amputation, losing part of yourself. Even if that part of yourself is not a part you want to keep.I think you are losing something brand new tonight, and that's hope for change. The denial of reality is gone, and now the wrenching depths of loneliness is setting in. I am so sorry for your loss.
>
> You mean I shouldn't call him in utter desperation and beg for him to love me? I shouldn't interrogate him as to whether or not he is with someone else and go out of my mind with jealousy? I shouldn't drive over there and find him with her and stand before them a raving lunatic? And this is what I think I want to do.you know he loves you, kara lynne. he's told you and showed you. he will probably always love you. you don't need to beg him to love you, he already does.
but he has been very clear that he can't give you what you need. begging, pleading, crying, screaming - though you may think they are cathartic, though you think you can guilt him into change - are fruitless. you know this.
it doesn't make you a bad person for wanting to try. it's especially hard when there is love, but all the nasty side effects of being human get in the way. but when you don't see him, you can keep the love and throw away the rest. in silent dignity, by yourself, you can keep a loving memory of him alive.
it's a choice not to call him, to sublimate your own pain. it's a tough choice.
>
> I'm so impressed that you were able to find the beauty and grace within yourself last night, to handle your pain as you did. I will pray to find some of that myself.kara lynne, i also made a choice to try and find the answers in myself and in my spiritual advisors. i warn you that you might have to make this choice, and commit to it, before it can work.
but i wanted to remind you that the spiritual world works in mysterious ways, ones that we can rarely see here on earth. it's not the spirits that are making you suffer, but only by submitting to the suffering and asking for their guidance can you start to find a way.
you will be in my thoughts.
i hope you slept well and things look better before well-rested eyes.
Posted by octopusprime on September 15, 2003, at 11:30:26
In reply to I feel like I want to die without him., posted by kara lynne on September 14, 2003, at 21:25:14
one more thing:
i have been comforted by reading many of the letters in the advice archive at
http://www.breakupgirl.net(there are thousands of letters in there, it will take some time to get through - a great way to fill empty hours!)
kara lynne, you are not alone or abnormal!
Posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 12:03:27
In reply to Re: 2:45 am, wanting to call him. » kara lynne, posted by Susan J on September 15, 2003, at 7:51:13
Thank you Susan. I can only imagine what he's told his therapist--part of the whole break up was because I overheard him on the phone with his therapist trashing me pretty good. I hope you're right and that *is* why his therapist told hime that, though.
Boy, last night was brutal. I might just as well have been on the floor twitching with D.T's going through alcohol withdrawal. I just wish I could be assured that the cravings will diminish.
Thanks so much for your support. I will try what you suggested. Whatever I'm doing isn't working so well!
Posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 12:17:13
In reply to Re: 2:45 am, wanting to call him. » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 15, 2003, at 8:42:46
dear fallsfall,
I would have loved to have known you were up, but this is the next best thing.I am at a new stage where I really feel like I made a mistake. I haven't felt this yet, or at least this strongly. I don't know whether it's because I feel too inadequate to create a life for myself, or if it's because I really blew it and should have stayed with him. I feel so crippled right now---I don't even *want* a life feeling this sad. I know he doesn't struggle with this--even in his email he said he had to go give an interview in 10 minutes. Gee, I'm glad he could take time out of his busy schedule to drop me a line.
I do have to remind myself that I will not get what I want if I call him. I guess I just have to stop punishing myself with doubt, but it seems impossible. I really don't feel any better off without him and it's hard not to interpret that to mean something other than it does.
I wasn't a better me around him. But I'm not a better me around me yet either-- I'm not in very good company at the moment. Except for everyone here, that is.
Thank you for being here. I have a counseling appt. today and am seeing that therapist tomorrow--for what probably will be the last time.
It's too early for ice cream.
Posted by Susan J on September 15, 2003, at 12:19:05
In reply to Re: 2:45/ fallsfall, posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 12:17:13
Posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 12:27:54
In reply to Re: I feel like I want to die without him. octopus, posted by octopusprime on September 15, 2003, at 10:45:35
Dear octopus,
You bring up a quality so foreign to me right now--dignity. It's a good quality even just to think about. How would a woman with dignity handle herself in this situation? Most likely she wouldn't call her ex at 2:30am begging for him to love her.I am riddled with doubt right now. I can't see the forest for the trees. I thought I knew he wasn't good for me, but now I honestly do not know that. Maybe I *could* have seen it through and been alright--if I could just have felt secure enough in the relationship. If I could just have felt secure in a relationship where my man wouldn't communicate, keep his word, and was bound to become verbally abusive from time to time. But if I had more of the qualities he's looking for, if I were just a confident, self-possessed woman with her own life, maybe he *would* have kept his word, wanted to marry me, not been abusive.
Thus we have the makings of self-torture.
I am going to pray for guidance today, o.p. Thank you so much for helping me through this.
Posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 13:46:06
In reply to Re: I feel like I want to die without him. octopus, posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 12:27:54
I have no shame. I am a quivering mass of protoplasm.
I took a walk.
I called about a job prospect.
If you're lucky I might even shower.What if I just called and told him I miss him and I love him and I'm sorry things couldn't work out? And I helped him pick out a ring for his new girlfriend?
Posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 14:11:59
In reply to Re: I feel like I want to die without him. octopus, posted by octopusprime on September 15, 2003, at 10:45:35
I have added it to my list of favorites.
Right now I believe I will never love again.
If I accomplish something I want to share it with him.
If I buy a new outfit I want to wear it for him.
If I look pretty I want to look pretty for him.I put on nice clothes today and it's really weird--I don't want to wear them out of the house. It doesn't mean anything unless he sees me in them.
I will keep them on.
I will leave now.
Posted by fallsfall on September 15, 2003, at 14:44:55
In reply to Never too early for ice cream!! :-) (nm) » kara lynne, posted by Susan J on September 15, 2003, at 12:19:05
I second what Susan says!
I used to have chocolate almond chip ice cream for breakfast when I was in high school
Posted by fallsfall on September 15, 2003, at 14:55:27
In reply to mama, posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 13:46:06
You took a walk! Good for you.
You called about a job prospect! Awesome.
Don't call him. His new girlfriend will have to live with his limited taste.
Kara, Until you are feeling a little better, don't call him. It WILL get better. Someone said above that you are now going through the reality that it is over. I think that is really true. But your life hasn't stopped in the meantime. Calling about a job prospect is BIG! I know it is hard to see yourself loving again, but I really think that you will. It will get better.
This is one of your quotes: "If I could just have felt secure in a relationship where my man wouldn't communicate, keep his word, and was bound to become verbally abusive from time to time. "
Why would you ever want to do this? Your next sentance said something about it being your fault that he did those bad things. I guess I don't see how you could force him to be quiet (did you put duct tape on his mouth?), force him to go back on his word (Did you make the things he promised impossible?), and I really don't see how you could have forced him to be verbally abusive. He talked for himself. He chose what to say. You did not CAUSE that.
The combination of this and saying goodbye to your therapist is an awful lot. If you think that your therapist could be helpful at all to you in this crisis, you might consider postponing letting him go. You just have an awful lot on your plate (and it ain't ice cream).
P.S. I had a large hot fudge sundae with Mint Explosion ice cream and marshmallow and nuts and a cherry. I wish I could tell you I feel all better, but at least there was a nice sugar high for a while.
Posted by Emme on September 15, 2003, at 18:17:13
In reply to I feel like I want to die without him., posted by kara lynne on September 14, 2003, at 21:25:14
Hi Kara Lynne,
I saw your above post. I'm so sorry you're feeling so sad and vulnerable. It's going to take time to get over this and it's so hard. You had a lot of emotional energy invested and now the relationship is gone. You've got a lot of grieving to do. You *can* do this.
He's still the same unhealthy person he was. He was bad news several weeks ago and he's still bad news. Never ever lose sight of that for one instant. Whoever suggested removing reminders of him from your environment had a good point. Stay as far away from him as you can in every respect so that you can focus all your energy on YOU.
You just seem like a really good person and you deserve 1000% more than what he gave you. Please do as many nice things for yourself as you can.
Okay, gotta go back to my drug-induced state of semi-consciousness. Thninking of you.
Emme
Posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 18:20:43
In reply to Re: mama » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 15, 2003, at 14:55:27
I had a very helpful session with my non-therapist counselor today. She helped me realize that my desperation is the child wanting to connect with people that can't; my father, my mother, my ex. My ex *could* not connect in any meaningful way--he had it connected with some sort of power struggle, issues he's never resolved with his smothering, repulsive mother. (I'm sorry to say that, but she's obese and domineering and insulting--while being overly romantic with him. I think I mentioned awhile back that he called me a pig in one of his tirades--that really seemed interesting to me because while I am many things, fat is not currently one of them. *He* is overweight, and his mother is obese. It was almost as if he were looking at her and yelling.)
To be close to me would mean submitting, signing over his will or something. That he would have to give up his precious___??? Autonomism? Aesthetic? I don't know. He was always so keen on his hipper than thou aesthetic.
I realized that he critiqued my letter instead of responding to it. I want to say that to him so badly! I want to shake him and ask him why he wouldn't fight for me. He actually took my gut wrenching words and told me it was 'very well written, coherent and thoughtful'. I couldn't put my finger on why that made me so crazy. Now I can.
Unfortunately I am still crazy. My counselor suggested it is that desperation before a paradigm shift--where the old patterns die and come up--hopefully--for their last death throes.
I still want to call him and make him connect to me. That is my pattern. I try to get people that cannot connect to connect with me, or I am not valuable.
Not a great plan.
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