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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 39. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Emme on July 2, 2003, at 22:40:15
I *was* doing much better. I was out of agony at least. But something happened tonight to set me back. A lively debate with an old friend. I didn't think it was viscious or anything like that, but we both have opinions. I obviously frustrated and tired him and he said he was tired and left (we'd been planning to get a movie). I should have been more in tune with his being stressed out to start with. I sent an e-mail message saying I was sorry he left feeling frustrated and suggesting we try to get back to enjoying each other's company by planning something fun.
But that doesn't help me. I am feeling such overpowering guilt that I can't stand it. In the past half hour I've cut myself in several places because I need to do something to punish myself and ease the guilt. I feel like I could keep doing it. I also feel like I could just take all of my medicine and swallow it, but I know I'm at least in control of that impulse. I just feel like a bad bad person.
Posted by Sabina on July 2, 2003, at 23:16:15
In reply to help, please...., posted by Emme on July 2, 2003, at 22:40:15
emme,
forgiving myself for the wrongs i do, and then perceive in a heightened state to be much worse than they are, is the most difficult thing for me. i often feel like i ruin everyone and everything i go near. i rarely cut or drink the pain away anymore. i created another outlet that is helping me steer away from those activities. i call it my rescue list. there are two columns, one each of short and long term goals, plans, and diversions to choose from...some more attainable than others for challenge and variety. some of mine are as simple as make up a grocery list or as complex as teaching myself to play the piano. even working on the rescue list has kept me from some black moments. the point is that i'm trying to redirect that energy that makes me want to take all my meds at once or punish myself. worst case scenario i've put the urge off for an hour or two with some activity or other. best case, i've made progress at a project or task that makes me feel a little better about myself. bottom line, i know i can't really say anything to make it better for you tonight, but it's something i'm working on as well. i still spend my fair share of time curled up in a ball crying and screaming and trying to find reasons to stick around. personally, i think it's great that you were pro-active and already emailed him about making a plan to do something fun together soon. be proud of yourself that you had the courage to at least make that effort. a "bad, bad person" wouldn't have noticed or cared that her friend left in a funk and even a lot of well meaning but frustrated people probably would have numbed themselves out and pretended it never happened. i do know what you're going through, and i will keep you in my thoughts.
bina
Posted by kara lynne on July 2, 2003, at 23:34:07
In reply to help, please...., posted by Emme on July 2, 2003, at 22:40:15
Oh Emme,
Is there anyone you can call to talk to? I wish I could just sit and be with you until you felt better. Trust that nowhere in his mind are you anywhere as bad as you feel. Chances are he'll forget about it by tomorow, and if he doesn't it still doesn't matter. You didn't do anything wrong! Not one thing! So he was tired, he'll live. I don't know what that comes from--who told you you were so bad so early that you feel you need to punish yourself. We are not responsible for deciphering everyone's moods so that we can respond to everything perfectly. It's impossible. But we are responsible to try to figure out how to let any light and love come in to ourselves when we are imperfect. I know it's hard, it's the hardest thing in the world, but it's the most important thing in the world.Try to think of yourself if it's at all possible, as someone else for a moment. What if I came to you and told you I felt so bad for reading someone wrong, that I made them mad and frustrated and had to cut myself because I was such a horrible person? I have made people mad and frustrated. I'm sure I do it daily! It's ok though, if they get mad. It doesn't mean we have to die because of it.
You have sent me such supportive posts, Emme, a bad person just wouldn't do that. Please be gentle with that person I like. Is there anything you can do--even to distract yourself for awhile? Go watch a movie yourself, do one small thing you need to do that would involve your physical energy. I have heard, but I don't have personal experience, that holding ice to your skin may get you through moments where you feel like cutting. Try it.
We have to stop punishing ourselves, Emme. We just have to.
I am sending love and prayers to you tonight. Please write and tell us how are you doing.
Posted by whiterabbit on July 3, 2003, at 0:25:44
In reply to help, please...., posted by Emme on July 2, 2003, at 22:40:15
I know it's hard to pull your focus away from this imaginary wrong, but you're punishing yourself for absolutely nothing. Your deep concern over this person's feelings for possibly seeming inconsiderate shows you to be a kind and loving person, the very opposite of your self-image. Your friend didn't go away hurt and angry as if you had been selfish and insulting, and the truth probably is no more than it seemed: he simply got tired and decided to go home and get some sleep. Nothing more. He would doubtless be horrified to know how you're suffering over this;
don't punish yourself, sweet girl. There's so much REAL evil and unspeakable cruelty in the world - don't waste your kind heart.
-Gracie
Posted by Emme on July 3, 2003, at 0:54:03
In reply to help, please...., posted by Emme on July 2, 2003, at 22:40:15
Thank you so much Sabina, Kara Lynne, Gracie. I'm fried, but your sweet responses are really comforting. I manage to internalize so many bad things about myself - I'll try to see if I can internalize what you guys wrote. Thanks for the ice cube suggestion. I'm sooo tired, but I'm not sure I'll sleep much. Thank God for J.K. Rowling. I'll write more sometime tomorrow....
Posted by kara lynne on July 3, 2003, at 15:34:56
In reply to Re: help, please...., posted by Emme on July 3, 2003, at 0:54:03
How are you feeling today? Any better? I'm off to work, but I'll check back later to see if you've posted.
(((emme)))
Posted by kara lynne on July 3, 2003, at 18:19:59
In reply to Emme, posted by kara lynne on July 3, 2003, at 15:34:56
Don't mean to be pushy, just checking in...
Posted by whiterabbit on July 3, 2003, at 18:24:32
In reply to help, please...., posted by Emme on July 2, 2003, at 22:40:15
Emme are you getting live help? As special as this site is, sometimes you need the hands-on
kind of help. Do you have a therapist or support group? Are you taking medication? Have you considered a short hospitalization? A hospital with a GOOD psychiatric program can be extremely helpful (I've experienced both at two local hospitals - very good treatment and very mediocre treatment). Think about it and write me if you have questions - I've been around the psychiatric block more than a few times and learned some stuff the hard way.
-Gracie
Posted by Emme on July 3, 2003, at 19:03:20
In reply to Emme...?, posted by kara lynne on July 3, 2003, at 18:19:59
> Don't mean to be pushy, just checking in...
Thanks. You're not pushy at all. I had plans that took me out of town most of the day. I wanted to cancel, but I couldn't get in touch with the person to cancel. So I had to go and I had a forced distraction, which was a probably a good thing. I was way tired. I ended up being awake until at least 3 am. I should have taken something to help me sleep, but I was afraid that if I took it that late I'd be a zombie today.
I'm looking at the cuts I put on myself and am relieved that they just look like I had a bad encounter with a briar patch or an annoyed cat. Thanks for responding to me. Posting last night - and getting such kind responses - was one strategy to get myself to stop hurting myself. The emotional intensity I was feeling has faded some, but I worry about it coming back...whoosh and down the rabbit hole and it's awful.
No response to my e-mail message to my friend, but he may not have checked it yet.
Emme
Posted by Emme on July 3, 2003, at 19:32:43
In reply to Re: help, please...., posted by whiterabbit on July 3, 2003, at 18:24:32
Hi Gracie,
> Emme are you getting live help? As special as this site is, sometimes you need the hands-on
> kind of help. Do you have a therapist or support group?I did call my pdoc's office this morning to check in and left the message that I was having a setback. She's made it clear I should call if I need her and is doing her best to be supportive. My therapist is on vacation. Believe it or not I was actually out of town during the afternoon today. I managed to follow through with plans, even though I was tired and dispirited and didn't want to go.
> Are you taking medication?
Yeah. Too darned many of them. :( But nothing seems expendible at the moment.
> Have you considered a short hospitalization? A
> hospital with a GOOD psychiatric program can be > extremely helpfulYeah, I've thouht about it, my doctor and I have mentioned it, and there are times I've started to want it. It's never discounted. If I get too much worse.... But in the meantime, my pdoc has had me schedule an appointment for a consulting opinion with someone she recommends highly. It's at the end of July (and it's going to be wicked expensive). She wants a fresh set of eyes and ideas.
> (I've experienced both at two local hospitals - very good treatment and very mediocre treatment). Think about it and write me if you have questions > - I've been around the psychiatric block more than a few times and learned some stuff the hard way.
Actually, if I could ask a few questions maybe I'd feel less scared of the whole idea...
What made the good treatment good? What made the mediocre treatment bad?
Did the doctor in the hospital communicate with your regular pdoc?
Were you treated with respect?How much of your own clothing/possessions are you allowed to have with you? Do you get any privacy?
Were you allowed to leave the floor and go outside at *all*?
I know this sounds silly, and maybe I have really distorted ideas about what happens when you're in the hospital, but I think I am terrified of the idea of loss of personal freedom. At my worst I'm sure I wouldn't care because I'd be in so much pain. But if I started to improve, then I could see myself totally freaking out not being able to go outdoors.I'm open to hearing anything else you think would be helpful. Thanks so much and thanks for helping yank me through another hellish night.
Emme
Posted by Emme on July 3, 2003, at 20:34:28
In reply to help, please...., posted by Emme on July 2, 2003, at 22:40:15
I just spoke to my friend on the phone. I invited him to join me at a July 4th party. He declined for perfectly reasonable reasons. But his tone of voice was cool. I think he's mad. I think he is concluding that I'm not someone he wants to hang around with. I still feel guilty.
You see, a few weeks ago he witnessed me have a brief incident of rage - I yelled at a stranger who was nasty to us. But my reaction was out of proportion. That's not normal for me - I *rarely* lose my cool like that. I'm not known for being hot headed. I was mortified and he was furious. At that time I was so guilt ridden that I was up most of the night and cut myself. I talked to my pdoc and to my therapist about it and that helped. And it seemed like the friendship stood a chance of getting back on track.
So even though last night wasn't a rage incident or directed at anything personal, I think the intensity of our discussion turned him off. Plus he's stressed in general.
You guys are probably right that I didn't really do anything wrong. At least I'm trying to tell myself that. He does tend to be a bit preachy and opinionated himself, which makes me feel like I'm being lectured at, and so I tend to play devil's advocate, and I end up being more contrary than I normally am. But we've had a mostly pleasant friendship for a number of years. I guess I hate the person that I become sometimes and feel terrible that I can't act more consistently like the person I want to be. (does that make sense? Boy am I rambling).
Anyway, I still feel out of sorts and guilty, and can't concentrate. I guess the improvements I'd made over the last few days were just not sturdy enough to withstand anything stressful.
Thanks for listening.
Emme
Posted by fallsfall on July 3, 2003, at 22:45:15
In reply to Re: help, please.... » whiterabbit, posted by Emme on July 3, 2003, at 19:32:43
> Actually, if I could ask a few questions maybe I'd feel less scared of the whole idea...
>
My experience is that each hospital is different about many, many things. Maybe you could get a tour and then you could ask about the specifics of the hospital near you.I was on a locked unit for two weeks both 8 years ago and 1 year ago (same hospital). (2 weeks is actually pretty long these days)
> What made the good treatment good? What made the mediocre treatment bad?
>
My hospital had bunches of groups. In the groups we learned about things - Cognitive distortions, Self Esteem, Medications, Relaxation, etc. We were working more on general strategies - not so much on our individual issues. You could talk with a staff member 1-1 about your issues. The groups were really important.> Did the doctor in the hospital communicate with your regular pdoc?
Not very well. I had tried a bunch of SSRIs and the doctor in the hospital needed to choose another for me. I thought he should consult with my pdoc to find out what my pdoc has learned about me. The hospital guy didn't try very hard to get in touch with my pdoc. Eventually I called my pdoc and relayed the info to the hospital doc. I was not happy about that. The pdoc did really short psychotherapy as well as med management. He wrote a summary for my therapist when I left.
> Were you treated with respect?I was always treated with respect.
>
> How much of your own clothing/possessions are you allowed to have with you?I wore all my own clothes and had my own toiletries. I brought some toys (cards, walkman, etc.)
They did check EVERYTHING I brought in and EVERYTHING anybody else brought for me. They wouldn't let me have anything "sharp" (includes knives, pins, screwdrivers, anything that you could use to hurt yourself), no belts/ties, (some hospitals take shoelaces). Even if you aren't going to hurt yourself, someone else could "borrow" your stuff so they can't let it be there. You can have certain things for short periods of time (razor for shaving, scissors for a craft, etc). I found it more amusing than aggravating.
Do you get any privacy?
Private rooms are few and far between. They want you to be socializing. I could always (almost) find a corner to read or write or whatever. I didn't feel a lack of privacy.
>
> Were you allowed to leave the floor and go outside at *all*?Hospitals have different safety levels. As you become safer and calmer you can move up a level. Each level has "restrictions" - things you can and cannot do.
The most restrictive (and most people never do this level) says you have to be within an arm's reach of a staff person (someone gets assigned to watch you).
Another level you can't leave the unit and staff check on you every 15 minutes.
The first level that can leave the unit has to leave and stay with a staff member.
Another can go to particular places, but has to call on the phone when they get there.
At the top, you have access to the hospital and grounds (which were beautiful at my hospital - trees, grass, swings(!!!)).
If you were off the unit you had to come back every so often (30 minutes? 60 minutes?) so they knew you were OK.
> I know this sounds silly, and maybe I have really distorted ideas about what happens when you're in the hospital, but I think I am terrified of the idea of loss of personal freedom.
They restrict your freedom to keep you safe. There are other hospital units that are not locked - I don't know how they operate. I loved being restricted because it made me feel safe and taken care of.
At my worst I'm sure I wouldn't care because I'd be in so much pain. But if I started to improve, then I could see myself totally freaking out not being able to go outdoors.
Some hospitals have outdoor priviledges and some don't. Maybe you want to shop around for a hospital (do this before you HAVE to be there).
>
> I'm open to hearing anything else you think would be helpful.Both of my hospital stays were VERY helpful. Later I went to visit a friend at my hospital and I was afraid I would want to stay. But I could tell when I was there by watching the patients that I didn't need to be there, so it was OK to leave.
Your experience will depend a lot on who you are and what your issues are. Some people love it. Some people hate it.
Thanks so much and thanks for helping yank me through another hellish night.
>
> Emme
>
Good Luck!!!
Posted by kara lynne on July 3, 2003, at 23:38:25
In reply to talked to friend briefly, posted by Emme on July 3, 2003, at 20:34:28
Hi Emme,
Yes, you make perfect sense. I also have a lot of conflict around the expression of anger. I really understand the impulse to go directly to self punishment after the expression of rage.When you don't respond to the first 20 people who are nasty, the 21st might understandably be shaky. But anger in response to a nasty person is a perfectly understandable response. I know those "unbalanced" responses that come from having suppressed them for so long. But consider that your friend might also have his own issues around anger--his reaction isn't necessarily an accurate guage from which to judge yourself so harshly.
I certainly don't have any answers. It's easy for me to tell you to give yourself a break I would not offer myself. But I am trying.
I'm so glad you're a little better today, and that you have good help available. Love, K.L.
Posted by Emme on July 4, 2003, at 8:42:40
In reply to Re: help, please.... » Emme, posted by fallsfall on July 3, 2003, at 22:45:15
Thanks so much for your perspectives on the hospital. That helps.
Emme
Posted by Emme on July 4, 2003, at 9:04:43
In reply to Re: talked to friend briefly, posted by kara lynne on July 3, 2003, at 23:38:25
Hi. Okay. Today feels like it's starting out bad again. I've got to try to keep it contained somehow. My friend sent out a general e-mail to a number of people with an update on what he's been up to. At least I was on the list. But there was no response to the message I sent. I think he's choosing not do deal with it. You're right. He probably has his own issues too. Maybe it's not all me. Somehow I grew up with a big guilt complex over expression of anger. I wonder if my brothers feel the same way...they certainly express anger more.
All of this is a lot of emotional reaction over something relatively minor. My emotional reservoir is not well stocked.
Also, I tend to be extremely sensitive to what people say to me (or don't say), and how they say it. I just soak it up like a sponge and let it gnaw at my self esteem. And the bigger the conflict, the worse I'd feel of course. (Though in the past I didn't used to hurt myself.) I know I do it. But counseling hasn't gotten me to stop doing it yet. I guess I know what to talk about next time I see my therapist. Let's make a deal - we'll both try to give ourselves a break over the next difficult thing that happens. Thanks for the support and input.I hope you have a good 4th.
love, emme> Hi Emme,
> Yes, you make perfect sense. I also have a lot of conflict around the expression of anger. I really understand the impulse to go directly toself punishment after the expression of rage.
>
> When you don't respond to the first 20 people who are nasty, the 21st might understandably be shaky. But anger in response to a nasty person is a perfectly understandable response. I know those "unbalanced" responses that come from having suppressed them for so long. But consider that your friend might also have his own issues around anger--his reaction isn't necessarily an accurate guage from which to judge yourself so harshly.
>
> I certainly don't have any answers. It's easy for me to tell you to give yourself a break I would not offer myself. But I am trying.
>
> I'm so glad you're a little better today, and that you have good help available. Love, K.L.
>
>
Posted by Emme on July 4, 2003, at 9:08:41
In reply to Re: talked to friend briefly » kara lynne, posted by Emme on July 4, 2003, at 9:04:43
> I hope you have a good 4th.
> love, emmeUnless you're not in the U.S. I haven't been paying attention...Bad emme, bad emme.... ;)
Posted by noa on July 4, 2003, at 10:17:24
In reply to Re: talked to friend briefly » kara lynne, posted by Emme on July 4, 2003, at 9:04:43
Sounds like you are one of us--the 'flaming amygdala gang'. I recognize the instant panic that occurs in interactions with people when you feel overwhelmed with feelings, worried about having hurt them, or feeling hurt,etc. The trick is to try to get the thinking brain--the cortex--to talk to the reactive brain--which includes my 'favorite' part--the amygdala--to calm it down with reason and openness to the potential for solving problems thoughtfully.
It takes a lot of practice. I've gotten much better at it, but I still have my fight-or-flight moments big time (lately it is at work with my bully boss). When this happens, its total amygdala action--zoom--I flee. Thinking and reason are not in the room at all.
I guess what has changed over time for me is that I calm down quicker now. But I know what it is like to be totally flooded with feeling--it feels to me like reason and language are totally inaccessible and nothing will calm me down. When flooded with emotion, it can be overwhelming, which is I guess where the cutting comes in for you.
Can you find substitutes for cutting that would have similar physiological effects on your state of arousal? How about some sensory integration stuff--like brushing with those "cornbrushes" (not too hard though!). Sensory integration (ironically abreviated as SI same as self injury) uses deep touch. Dinah once mentioned another sensory integration technique that she uses sometimes--tightly wrapping oneself in a sheet or blanket.
Hope today is calmer for you!
Posted by kara lynne on July 4, 2003, at 13:40:30
In reply to Re: talked to friend briefly » kara lynne, posted by Emme on July 4, 2003, at 9:04:43
*Let's make a deal - we'll both try to give ourselves a break over the next difficult thing that happens. *
Sounds good to me Emme--ok, remember, we have a deal!!
In my family it was not the same for men as ait was for women; I was thinking that throughout our emails, so it's interesting that you bring it up. It was not the same in a lot of ways. Right now I'm just amazed at how unkind my father is being to me. It's as if he's punishing me for not being able to keep an abusive man around. It's very hard for me to come to terms with. *He* can sure be angry, but any show of mine invites instant rejection from him. Hey, he stopped talking to me the other day because I suggested he needed a shot of freon in his car air conditioner.
Anyway, remember our deal and keep posting. And yes I am in the US, but I hate the 4th of July; all I think about is how scared the animals get from the explosions (me being one of them, I guess). People do really stupid things and light dynamite in theaters and things like that. I try not to think about it too much.
Posted by fallsfall on July 4, 2003, at 14:20:52
In reply to Re: talked to friend briefly, posted by kara lynne on July 4, 2003, at 13:40:30
4th of July. I hate loud sudden noises. So I hate firecrackers, and balloons, and guns.
When I was little my family went to the local football field to watch the fireworks. I hated it. I sat through the whole show with my hands over my ears crying. Now that I've grown I still don't like fireworks, but I have kids so I needed to tolerate a certain amount. I eventually found that I could park my car away from the fireworks. We could still see them, but they weren't as loud, and you didn't feel them in your stomach. 2 of my 3 children came with me. The third went up close with his dad.
This year I am not planning to go at all.
P.S. The worst birthday party game: My best friend (and I) were probably 5. The game was to see how many balloons you could pop by sitting on them! I didn't play.
Posted by kara lynne on July 4, 2003, at 15:35:28
In reply to Re: 4th of July » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on July 4, 2003, at 14:20:52
Oh God. Balloons popping! Just the thought that they *could* pop is enough to drive me crazy.
When I was younger my parents used to take my poor, scared dog and me to my grandmother's house (remote, quiet area) on the 4th of July to spend the night. I'd be there now if I could! I try to send prayers to the animals--so many dogs run away and are lost on the 4th of July.
Thank you so much for understanding.
Posted by kara lynne on July 4, 2003, at 15:36:56
In reply to Re: talked to friend briefly » Emme, posted by noa on July 4, 2003, at 10:17:24
Just makes me want to start a band: "Noa and the Flaming Amygdalas".
Posted by kara lynne on July 4, 2003, at 15:41:36
In reply to Re: 4th of July » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on July 4, 2003, at 14:20:52
A friend of mine invited me up to Lake Arrowhead for the 4th of July. She said they do laser shows instead of fireworks due to the fire hazard. Now *that* sounds like a good idea to me!
Unfortunately I can't leave my cat; she's having such a difficult time adjusting to the move. Ironically she's deaf, and I think it adds to her hypersensitivity. Just what we need around here, some more hypersensivity! (I'm glad on days like these that she's deaf, however.)
Posted by fallsfall on July 4, 2003, at 17:09:32
In reply to fallsfalll---also..., posted by kara lynne on July 4, 2003, at 15:41:36
Laser Light show. That would be a great idea. You get the pretty without the bang.
I was thinking, hmmm if I were deaf I wouldn't hear the fireworks - but they reverberate in your stomach so I guess that's not a solution.
When I was growing up, my dog hid under a child-size table in my bedroom during thunderstorms. The fireworks weren't close to the house. I think my current dogs bark at the fireworks. One of the times I got the maddest was when a neighborhood kid was setting off fireworks on the street while my baby was trying to nap. Boy did he hear from me.
Posted by noa on July 4, 2003, at 17:41:32
In reply to Re: talked to friend briefly, posted by kara lynne on July 4, 2003, at 13:40:30
I HATE fireworks. I mean, they are pretty and all and I remember liking them when I was a kid, but now I hate them. It is the noise--the explosions, I think. And the crowds, too.
Posted by noa on July 4, 2003, at 17:42:54
In reply to Noa, posted by kara lynne on July 4, 2003, at 15:36:56
> Just makes me want to start a band: "Noa and the Flaming Amygdalas".
LOL! If only I were musical!!
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