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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mmcasey on June 19, 2003, at 9:31:51
I've read a lot of the posts by Shar about waiting till your 50 to kill yourself. At first when she said that to me, I was actually kind of offended. But now, especially with the post that explained the reasoning behind that, I understand more. But I just want to say that, being young, 50 seems incredibly far away. It is further away than the amount of time that I've been alive. In some ways, when I am feeling in a more positive mood, that seems like a good thing, like... there is so much time for things to change and get better. Who knows what the years may bring, both for me personally, as well as new developments in research? Maybe next week I'll become happy (highly unlikely!) or maybe in a few years (possible?). But then, in a more negative and hopeless mood, the idea of having to go through another year like this seems rather unbearable, never mind another 26 (well, okay 25 + 1/2)! It just seems like, after having gone through approximately half my life feeling pretty badly for the most part and several years of feeling on-and-off suicidal, why should I think that anything can ever change? I know that's just depressive narrow-minded thinking when I feel okay, but it's hard to keep that in mind at other times.
Lately, I have been feeling fairly positive and hopeful that things can really get better, but we'll see how long that lasts...
Just some thoughts.
Posted by mmcasey on June 19, 2003, at 9:33:14
In reply to About waiting till your 50, posted by mmcasey on June 19, 2003, at 9:31:51
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2003, at 9:42:34
In reply to About waiting till your 50, posted by mmcasey on June 19, 2003, at 9:31:51
I'm getting closer to fifty, but I don't really feel like the I'm free to make that choice. It would hurt too many people in my life. I made the choice to marry and have a child. I don't feel like I could justify choosing something that would hurt them.
That being said, I have no expectation that things will ever get better. I have everything I ever wanted. All I can do from here is lose things. I have a home, a decent husband, a wonderful son. Yet thoughts of suicide hang around me like... I don't know. Things can't get any better than this. There is no possibility. My life is perfect. Except for wanting to be out of it.
Posted by OddipusRex on June 19, 2003, at 10:40:53
In reply to Re: About waiting till your 50, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2003, at 9:42:34
Approaching geezerdom myself, when I first saw those one liners I thought it meant that things were going to get better when you hit 50!
And I think there is some reason to believe it will. At least for women. The hormones settle down. There are rumours of postmenopausal zest. And wise crones and time to yourself. New beginnings. Fewer pressures. Less competition. Autumn was always my favorite season. So I'm going to hang on to my hopeful illusions.I don't think I could set a deadline and then just stick to it. Much too logical and dispassionate and I think suicidal feelings are illogical and passionate at least the acute ones. At times like that it's hard to imagine morning coming much less a new decade.
Posted by shar on June 19, 2003, at 17:47:49
In reply to Re: About waiting till your 50, posted by OddipusRex on June 19, 2003, at 10:40:53
> Approaching geezerdom myself, when I first saw those one liners I thought it meant that things were going to get better when you hit 50!
(ahem! cough! cough!) Geezerdom?? Hmmmm, I'm 51.
It would be a great disappointment to me if the message I sent was that things got better when one hit 50. No, nay, nein, never. Things will never get better. We will never overcome our own personal idiosyncratic dx's and demons. There will never be a certainty to any happiness we do experience. We will never live without pain. We will always wish we were dead--if that's where we come from. And, that is definitely where I come from. Suicidal ideation has been with me for as long as I can remember (in the single digits, early, like about 5 years old). I don't believe it will ever be gone, I don't believe my depression will ever be gone, I don't believe life will be anything approaching a bed (or even cot) of roses. Period.
Some things one cannot overcome, no matter what one does, and/or how one does it.
To be less entirely dark, there are things that may lend to one's life *enough* pain-absence to continue on. A shift can occur that takes the landscape from entirely desolate and bleak for decades, to a point of light on the horizon. One point of life/light. A little bitty old thing, one tiny good thing, that may take away enough of the hellish, brutish reality to allow one to go on. Maybe. Maybe not. Where does one draw the line? At 20? At 21? At 30? When one has lived more years suicidal than not (for me, that would have been age 11 or earlier).
So, where does 50 come from? The idea of honoring the self enough, in some existential sense, to give everything a try, to make a valiant effort to feel better, to honestly be able to say "I tried" before making that final decision. Well, maybe someone has tried enough by the time they are 11. What think ye? No? Not enough life experience? Still enough time to make a change?
Well, maybe one has tried enough by the time they are 20. That's almost twice 11. No? There may be more? There may be time for meds to be developed or therapy to help?
OK. How about 33? That is 300% (?) more than 11. Still too soon? 33 years of a living nightmare wanting to die is too soon? Certainly not!!
When can I say I've given it all I have, given the medical community time to invent a drug that will cure me, given therapy enough time to actually work, find another way? Well, for me, that's a half century. I can say that after the half-century mark, I have given everything I know about a good, healthy chance of succeeding.
Why suffer the intervening years? No real reason. A belief that what awaits me after my suicide may not be what I hope for. A hope that something here might change. Might change *just enough* to make crawling through another day ok.
No Pollyanna idealism here. Not about my life, anyway. Things get better at 50? Sounds like a Hallmark card, and doesn't reflect my reality; in fact, it makes me think I've been terribly unclear if that's what people heard.
It's much more scientific, and not at all scientific, and mostly just something I could wait for. I could endure all the deeply ingrained pain, because after 50 years, I could happily exercise my option to die. [At one time, I had a personal taboo about suicide, but as the time went on, and the pain went on, that became less and less important--I no longer cared whether the place I went to was better.]
Suicide is a major life decision. It should not be taken lightly. Just as entering into any major event (such as marriage) should not be taken lightly. Marrying in the midst of passion someone who you've known only a week is silly. Killing oneself in the midst of passion is irreversible.
I did want to at least try to be clear about why 50. And, now, I don't have to draw back in horror at the idea that I mean life gets better in any way at any time.
Shar
Posted by OddipusRex on June 19, 2003, at 19:38:39
In reply to Re: About waiting till your 50, posted by shar on June 19, 2003, at 17:47:49
Oh I understood you very well after I read your first explanation. I just don't agree with you. And you don't agree with me. That's okay. Please don't be disappointed by thinking you'd accidentally posted something hopeful.Tis not so!!! And have a slightly less grim day if possible which it's probably not :)
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>
> It would be a great disappointment to me if the message I sent was that things got better when one hit 50. No, nay, nein, never. Things will never get better. We will never overcome our own personal idiosyncratic dx's and demons. There will never be a certainty to any happiness we do experience. We will never live without pain. We will always wish we were dead--if that's where we come from. And, that is definitely where I come from. Suicidal ideation has been with me for as long as I can remember (in the single digits, early, like about 5 years old). I don't believe it will ever be gone, I don't believe my depression will ever be gone, I don't believe life will be anything approaching a bed (or even cot) of roses. Period.
>
Posted by mmcasey on June 20, 2003, at 9:33:23
In reply to Re: About waiting till your 50, posted by shar on June 19, 2003, at 17:47:49
But, even after 50... you are still alive... ?? So, you still don't think that you've given life a fair shot, or you still think that things could get better? Just wondering.
Posted by shar on June 20, 2003, at 11:37:04
In reply to Re: About waiting till your 50 » shar, posted by OddipusRex on June 19, 2003, at 19:38:39
Why, thank you, OR! I hope you have a less-than-grim day as well.
xoxo
Shar
> Oh I understood you very well after I read your first explanation. I just don't agree with you. And you don't agree with me. That's okay. Please don't be disappointed by thinking you'd accidentally posted something hopeful.Tis not so!!! And have a slightly less grim day if possible which it's probably not :)
>
>
>
>
> .
> >
> > It would be a great disappointment to me if the message I sent was that things got better when one hit 50. No, nay, nein, never. Things will never get better. We will never overcome our own personal idiosyncratic dx's and demons. There will never be a certainty to any happiness we do experience. We will never live without pain. We will always wish we were dead--if that's where we come from. And, that is definitely where I come from. Suicidal ideation has been with me for as long as I can remember (in the single digits, early, like about 5 years old). I don't believe it will ever be gone, I don't believe my depression will ever be gone, I don't believe life will be anything approaching a bed (or even cot) of roses. Period.
> >
>
Posted by shar on June 20, 2003, at 11:39:32
In reply to Re: About waiting till your 50 » shar, posted by mmcasey on June 20, 2003, at 9:33:23
Good observation, MM.
A little over one month before my chosen date, the landscape and my world view shifted *just enough* to make it worth going on.
Shar
Posted by OddipusRex on June 20, 2003, at 21:09:43
In reply to Re: About waiting till your 50 » mmcasey, posted by shar on June 20, 2003, at 11:39:32
Posted by shar on June 20, 2003, at 22:25:57
In reply to maybe your' right shar everything is black (nm), posted by OddipusRex on June 20, 2003, at 21:09:43
Posted by Snoozy on June 21, 2003, at 23:20:28
In reply to Re: About waiting till your 50, posted by shar on June 19, 2003, at 17:47:49
I'm wondering about the experiences of others who have lived with suicidal thoughts for 10, 20 or more years. I started feeling the desire to not exist in childhood. And I think I have subconsciously since then expected that I would kill myself within the next few years. I don't mean that I had a plan or anything, but more as a comfort - I'm not going to have to go on like this for a long time. I suppose in a way this makes sense as a coping mechanism. I can be feeling ok - not good, but ok. But if I think that I'm going to go on pretty much like this for another 10 years, that's just unbearably depressing. One day at a time, I guess.
Has anyone else had similar thoughts/feelings?
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2003, at 12:38:01
In reply to Re: About waiting, posted by Snoozy on June 21, 2003, at 23:20:28
It's funny. I was just reading about this. What I read said that some people feel powerless to change their lives. And that ironically, the knowledge that they can end their lives gives them the ability to continue the struggle to live. It's a coping mechanism.
Sounds about right to me. I see it as my way out if disaster ever strikes. Disaster isn't all that clearly defined, but it would be whatever I don't think I have the strength to live through. Knowing that I have the ability to end my life keeps me from being paralyzed by fear.
At other times I might dream of it as others dream of Tahiti.
The book I was reading suggested that it is a habit that can be broken, but that as in any coping mechanism, it shouldn't be removed unless other coping mechanisms are first put in place.
Posted by yesac on June 22, 2003, at 12:45:12
In reply to Re: About waiting, posted by Snoozy on June 21, 2003, at 23:20:28
>subconsciously since then expected that I would kill myself within the next few years. I don't mean that I had a plan or anything, but more as a comfort - I'm not going to have to go on like this for a long time. I suppose in a way this makes sense as a coping mechanism. I can be feeling ok - not good, but ok. But if I think that I'm going to go on pretty much like this for another 10 years, that's just unbearably depressing. One day at a time, I guess.
Yes, I feel exactly like this. In recent years, I have at times become almost completely convinced that within a year or two I would try to kill myself and either succeed or end up in a psychiatric hospital. It comes and goes. I think that the idea of killing myself is a definite coping mechanism/comfort. I've heard of people who have some kind of plan with their therapist (or whoever) that they will not kill themselves for 3 years or something. I would NEVER want to make this kind of commitment. I strongly hesitate to even say to therapists that I won't do it within the next week - at least when I feel really suicidal - because I know that I'll have to stick to my word. But eventually I feel that I must say it or else they'll have to involuntarily hospitalize me.
Posted by yesac on June 22, 2003, at 12:49:50
In reply to Re: About waiting » Snoozy, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2003, at 12:38:01
> The book I was reading suggested that it is a habit that can be broken, but that as in any coping mechanism, it shouldn't be removed unless other coping mechanisms are first put in place.What was that book? There is some book that came out this year that has caught my eye at the library... written by a woman who lived with suicidal thoughts for many years (18?) and then developed some kind of method of overcoming them.
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2003, at 18:25:38
In reply to Re: About waiting » Dinah, posted by yesac on June 22, 2003, at 12:49:50
Whooooo. I'm embarassed to admit which book. It would reveal just how obsessive I can be. Suffice it to say that it's one of the books that my husband shakes his head about and mutters about my working on my doctoral thesis. In other words a professional book written for professionals or maybe students. (Hangs head in shame)
Posted by fallsfall on June 22, 2003, at 20:36:32
In reply to Re: About waiting » yesac, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2003, at 18:25:38
"Professional" books are just about the only ones I read. I have a card for the University Library, so I have lots of choices.
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2003, at 20:42:41
In reply to Re: About waiting » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on June 22, 2003, at 20:36:32
I'm thinking of trying to get an alumni card so I can read to my hearts content now that I'm insolvent.
Do you know that when my husband met a few times with my therapist, the only thing I swore him to secrecy about, the only thing I was embarassed/ashamed about, was my reading habits? I made him swear on a stack of bibles on threat of divorce if he mentioned how many psych books I read.
I've gotten a teensy bit more honest about that, because he knows about this board and my familiarity with psych terms. And just last week I had to explain to him what a SPECT scan was, and the other week what DBT was. It is not an inspiring feeling.
I think maybe I should read less. :(
Posted by yesac on June 24, 2003, at 12:17:37
In reply to Re: About waiting » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2003, at 20:42:41
I found out the name of that book that I was referring to in an earlier post to Dinah. It's called...
"How I Stayed Alive When My Brain Was Trying to Kill Me: One Person's Guide to Suicide Prevention"
Posted by yesac on June 24, 2003, at 12:20:46
In reply to In case anyone's interested..., posted by yesac on June 24, 2003, at 12:17:37
Posted by Brio D Chimp on June 24, 2003, at 13:40:31
In reply to In case anyone's interested..., posted by yesac on June 24, 2003, at 12:17:37
> I found out the name of that book that I was referring to in an earlier post to Dinah. It's called...
>
> "How I Stayed Alive When My Brain Was Trying to Kill Me: One Person's Guide to Suicide Prevention"You need to put double quotaion marks :)
Posted by yesac on June 24, 2003, at 14:12:47
In reply to Re: In case anyone's interested...link » yesac, posted by Brio D Chimp on June 24, 2003, at 13:40:31
> You need to put double quotaion marks :)I tried that but it told me there was no link. I don't know, maybe I did it wrong or something. At least I tried!
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 24, 2003, at 16:17:36
In reply to Re: In case anyone's interested...link » Brio D Chimp, posted by yesac on June 24, 2003, at 14:12:47
This is the end of the thread.
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