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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SusanG on June 7, 2002, at 13:33:59
This is a sensitive topic and I wonder about the wisdom of my posting it, but I feel a need to say this.
I know I have read in posts or talked in chat about the notion of some of us being afraid to get better and not doing all we can to get well. I know this thought is offensive since we would probably cut off our right arms if it meant we could be rescued from this hell we experience. But I must confess that sometimes I think there is a tiny bit of truth in this for me. I resent it when told I'm not doing all I can to be well, or I'm even doing things to make my depression worse (perseverating, wallowing, etc). But once in a while I get a momentary taste of freedom from my own dark thoughts and while it feels wonderful, alive, and hopeful, I also get a little wave of something I can only describe as fear or a feeling of loss. I ask myself, why wouldn't I want to be better? I can come up with some ideas, though some fit better than others. And right now I am struggling to think clearly so I don't know if I even make sense.
Feeling depressed and hopeless is familiar to me now. I have almost forgotten what I used to feel like when I wasn't depressed. I get attention and support when I feel bad; maybe I won't have this if I get better. Maybe somewhere deep inside I don't feel I deserve to be happy and I am punishing myself by remaining in this state. Perhaps I am punishing others by being miserable and therefore miserable to be around. I devote a lot of time to my depression including reading posts and chatting on PBO. If I get well, I will not have this in my life and what will fill the void? I've forgotten how I spent my time when I was happy. If I am not depressed, does this mean I have no excuses now and must accomplish things? Cultivating hobbies, etc., sounds overwhelming to me but maybe that is still the depression talking. Being depressed is familiar to me; maybe I am afraid of change, even if it is good change.
Most of the time I wish with all my heart to be free of this pain but there is that tiny part of me that says I'd better look very closely at myself to see if I am, in fact, doing all I can to help myself. And if not, I'd better figure out why not and do something to address that. Just my thoughts about me here and wondering if this fits for any of you. Please don't be offended by my suggestion that this could be the case. I'm sure it is not true for the majority but if it helps someone to discover what might be holding them back, then I am glad I mentioned it.
Posted by Penny on June 8, 2002, at 4:43:18
In reply to Afraid to get better?, posted by SusanG on June 7, 2002, at 13:33:59
My thoughts exactly. I have discussed this concept with my therapist at length, and just before this latest downturn, I was feeling 'better'. I tried to go two weeks without seeing my pdoc, and boom, I'm back in the hole. Why? Because I WANT to see him? I do think that's part of it.
But I also think that the 'fear of getting better' is a symptom of the illness. B/c if we were truly 'well' we wouldn't be fearful of feeling happy. So I've had one of my clinicians acknowledge that while it is true that I might feel strange while undergoing a temporary reprieve from depression, she doesn't buy the 'fear of getting better' stuff. B/c she said it puts me in a position of being even harder on myself. If you think about it...it's like blaming yourself for not getting better. And we ALL know that, if really given the choice of living depression-free, we would. Because it's hell.
So, I guess what I'm asking, Susan, is for you to try to do the same thing I try to do and NOT BLAME YOURSELF by thinking 'I might not be doing everything I could be to get better.' No, you're probably not, b/c it would take a well person to do all of those things. You crave the attention b/c you NEED it. If you could choose to be well and not have to travel to the pdoc frequently and take meds and all that, you probably would make that choice. But it's not a choice, and you don't need to be so hard on yourself.
It takes one to know one, I know...
Love, Penny
Posted by SusanG on June 8, 2002, at 16:10:29
In reply to Re: Afraid to get better? » SusanG, posted by Penny on June 8, 2002, at 4:43:18
Thanks very much for your response, Penny. I have been worried that this would generate negative responses from those who might be offended by even the suggestion that this idea could have some validity so I am relieved and grateful for your kind reply. I know it is probably silly, but I don't post often because usually when I do I am filled with anxiety about whether my post will be misunderstood, make me look foolish (or worse), or possibly offend someone. It's good to know that someone knows what I am talking about here and I appreciate your therapist's perspective. I will have to see if I can use that logic to "redirect" myself when I get those feelings. Thanks again for taking the time to respond and for your thoughtful words.
Sue
Posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 19:08:38
In reply to Afraid to get better?, posted by SusanG on June 7, 2002, at 13:33:59
it not being afraid of getting better..I think you've let somebodies cynicsm get to you...its much more complicated....your life now is who you are...so how are you going to stay better...what if the medication poops out ?
so you dropped all your friends ..you suddenly got well...
I suffer from Seasonal depression which is very interesting for getting insight into the process ..I know its going to happen...I know when its going to happen..I know when i'll come out of it...and i've noticed this..about march I start feeling high and happy..and start fighting with to be free from the misery I attract in the winter..(people usually) i'm like a rocket, because I know I won't go back into depression for 6 months..and I just let people know that...
I used to think I was BP//but thats not what i'm trying to tell you..before I had it figured the seasons were doing my head in..I had periods where I knew I was feeling better..but had all the dread of change you talked about...
thats a sensible dread...to throw away support, friends, habits that protect you..would be crazy if you don't know if you'll slide back or your prozac poops or life throws so much CR%P that you get hit right back to psychosis zone...
what you say makes perfect sense...unless you have a depression which comes in and out like clockwork you need to keep your toe in these deeper waters which is part of the structure of who you are.
Posted by shar on June 9, 2002, at 22:16:29
In reply to Afraid to get better?, posted by SusanG on June 7, 2002, at 13:33:59
This is a button of mine...people saying that sort of thing. Especially some of the folk I know -- ie, well, no wonder she still has cancer, she has such NEGATIVE THOUGHTS----arrrggghhh. As if the only people who recover only have positive thoughts!
IMHO the 'staying sick on purpose' school of thought is pretty much baloney, whether physical or mental health is being discussed. It is pretty easy to spot noncompliance...people don't take medication, miss dr.'s appointments, eat or drink things that are forbidden--on a regular basis.
The 'staying sick' school of thought is a little more insidious because IMHO it focuses on the fact that one isn't doing ALL ONE CAN to get better. That is, a sick person might have 75 things to do to get better, and maybe they only do 65.....that leaves 10 things the 'staying sick' school of thought can point to and say "see, you aren't REALLY trying to get better, if you were you'd be doing these other 10 things." (All these numbers are made up; for example only.)
Well, IMHO it is another way to blame the sick person for being ill. Out of those 75 things we need to do to get better, probably 10% (7) of them make a major difference--let's say meds, therapy, diet, exercise, and 3 other things. Those things probably make up 97% of what it takes to get better. The remaining 68 things account for 3% of what it takes to get better. (Again, numbers are just made up.)
I believe if one is basically giving it a good go, doing the most important things, then they do not fit into the 'wanting to stay sick' category. It isn't about doing EVERYTHING -- in other words, 100% compliance. Nobody can do 100% of what it takes all the time. It IS about making a serious effort to heal, doing the best we can, understanding we can't always control the factors that might make us less compliant (for example, depression-related fatigue may inhibit our exercise). Also acknowledging that at times we just don't do everything we can; we could be cranky, tired, too down, lonely. We don't have an immunity to the trials and tribulations around us.
Do we find sometimes that the idea of losing depression is unsettling? Yes, probably. It would be a change on many different levels of our lives, it would bring dramatic and new things into our lives. And that can be a little scary. Especially if we know there are good things we'd lose -- like getting cared for or attended to. Why wouldn't we feel nervous? Maybe we'd have to stop and deal with some of that. (Or feel nervous about it coming back!)
The one time I found a med that was effective in alleviating my depression/dysthymia I was an elated person. I didn't find I missed depression at all. I reveled in the energy I had, gloried in how 'gregarious' I had become, it was so easy to talk to people, go places, do things. I don't think I once thought about what I'd given up or wanting to be depressed again...nor have I seen many posts here that talked about that.
IMO we don't need to put too much weight, emphasis or credibility onto the idea that we want to stay sick. Or that we're afraid to get better. If we do have some of that, I bet it's like 4% of our total thoughts about depression. Not material.
Ranting Shar
Posted by Tabitha on June 10, 2002, at 2:03:39
In reply to Afraid to get better? (Long and slightly ranty), posted by shar on June 9, 2002, at 22:16:29
Thank you, shar, I found your post really validating. It's exactly true that when I'm feeling better I certainly never miss feeling bad. But when I'm not feeling as good as I want to feel, I feel like I've failed (as if it's all my fault).
My therapist has suggested I don't think I deserve to be happy. Whether that's true or not, usually such thoughts just add a load of guilt on top of the already less than happy state.
Posted by SusanG on June 10, 2002, at 14:52:51
In reply to Afraid to get better? (Long and slightly ranty), posted by shar on June 9, 2002, at 22:16:29
Shar, I knew I would push some buttons with this and that's why I was hesitant to post but I do appreciate you taking the time to respond. I guess my primary goal here is to think out loud about myself and to hear the perspectives of others. What I'm doing to exacerbate my depression may be entirely unique to me or may apply only to a few others. Putting things down in a post makes them more concrete and I'm hoping this will allow me to process my thoughts and feelings in the hope of MOVING ON. I realize these are concerns I should be bringing up to a therapist but I am not having a lot of success with my psychiatrist (you may have seen my post) so I turn to the very knowledgeable people here to help me sort this out. It is immensely helpful and I appreciate everyone's feedback.
You are right, no one can give 100% effort 100% of the time. Doing what I can at any given moment is probably all I can ask of myself. This weekend I spent time being happy and just enjoying life for a few hours. For the first time in almost a year I didn't allow that little voice inside my head to ask, "What are you doing being happy? Don't you remember you are depressed?" I LET myself feel good and I enjoyed it for as long as it lasted. Some of the sadness returned because, of course, it isn't so simply resolved just by giving myself permission to be happy. But at least for a short time I removed that one factor. At any rate, please don't be offended by this as I am sure it doesn't apply to you or the vast majority, if not all, of the posters here. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.
Posted by shar on June 10, 2002, at 22:49:43
In reply to Re: Afraid to get better? , posted by SusanG on June 10, 2002, at 14:52:51
G Susan,
I sure hope you don't think my rantiness was pointed toward you personally! It isn't at all; plus, I know that there can be truth to an issue for some folks and not for others--for a thousand reasons. So, I am definitely not trying to change your spot, make you think differently! No way!Now, I would hate to see you give yourself a ration of unwarranted shit because someone was blaming you for "staying" depressed, but that doesn't seem to be the case here at all. You seem to be undertaking a considered exploration of what's going on with you. That is healthy and courageous.
We sure do tippy toe on this board, don't we?
I am not in the least bit upset or offended or anything like that by your post or response, I like to say what's on my mind, and I expect others will do the same (if not, I hope they start!). It won't hurt me if someone believes something other than what I do.
I am delighted to hear that you had some hours of pleasure with no niggling voice to interrupt you. I hope you are finding the path to many more hours of the same!
Shar
> Shar, I knew I would push some buttons with this and that's why I was hesitant to post but I do appreciate you taking the time to respond. I guess my primary goal here is to think out loud about myself and to hear the perspectives of others. What I'm doing to exacerbate my depression may be entirely unique to me or may apply only to a few others. Putting things down in a post makes them more concrete and I'm hoping this will allow me to process my thoughts and feelings in the hope of MOVING ON. I realize these are concerns I should be bringing up to a therapist but I am not having a lot of success with my psychiatrist (you may have seen my post) so I turn to the very knowledgeable people here to help me sort this out. It is immensely helpful and I appreciate everyone's feedback.
>
> You are right, no one can give 100% effort 100% of the time. Doing what I can at any given moment is probably all I can ask of myself. This weekend I spent time being happy and just enjoying life for a few hours. For the first time in almost a year I didn't allow that little voice inside my head to ask, "What are you doing being happy? Don't you remember you are depressed?" I LET myself feel good and I enjoyed it for as long as it lasted. Some of the sadness returned because, of course, it isn't so simply resolved just by giving myself permission to be happy. But at least for a short time I removed that one factor. At any rate, please don't be offended by this as I am sure it doesn't apply to you or the vast majority, if not all, of the posters here. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.
Posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 23:46:56
In reply to Afraid to get better? (Long and slightly ranty), posted by shar on June 9, 2002, at 22:16:29
that was great really well put, hope you don't mind re-using bits for my employment officer ?
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 11, 2002, at 17:12:54
In reply to Re: Afraid to get better? » SusanG, posted by Penny on June 8, 2002, at 4:43:18
Penny, just thought I'd toss in that it's clear to me from your messages that you really want to be well. You are pushing to get the help you need and create a life, not succumb to illness. People who don't want to be well don't look for jobs, treatment, or doctors. You are SO motivated. :D
bookgurl99
Posted by Penny on June 12, 2002, at 10:24:20
In reply to Re: Afraid to get better?, posted by Bookgurl99 on June 11, 2002, at 17:12:54
Bookgurl,
Thank you so much for these words. I do want to get better, it's just so hard playing a waiting game with meds, treatment programs, etc., not to mention waiting on jobs, worrying about money, etc. I feel like I've been waiting forever. But I try to remind myself on more optimistic days (like today) that I can hang on for a little while longer and, hopefully, things will improve.
Penny
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 12, 2002, at 20:55:56
In reply to Afraid to get better?, posted by SusanG on June 7, 2002, at 13:33:59
On getting well:
I've been rebuilding my life from what I lost due to this struggle. (Needing to complete incomplete coursework, arrange payment with hospitals, find a job,reconnect with friends, etc.). Sometimes I do great -- I wake up and cross things off my to-do list, follow a structure, even exercise and eat perfectly. Then other days -- like today -- I am a lazy layabout. I try to blame it on the heat or other things, but it's just more an inertia that develops from being out of practice of being well. But I find that if I can just get my morning started off right -- get out of bed on time, follow my 'healthy morning routine' then my brain is set for productivity.
Meanwhile, though, I want to beat myself up for taking a day "off," even though when I was well I would have done this every once in a while without seeing it as evidence of my dysfunctionality.
Aren't mentally ill people allowed to chill out in front of MtV with frozen yogurt too?
Posted by Cecilia on June 13, 2002, at 2:40:40
In reply to Afraid to get better?, posted by SusanG on June 7, 2002, at 13:33:59
I think I`m afraid to get better. It`s like I have a set-point for happiness. I`m not bipolar but just go back and forth from extreme depression to moderate depression. I`m terrified of the pit of extreme depression, but also terrified of happiness The therapist I saw for seven years told me at the end "I can`t help you, you obviously need to be depressed." Well, that`s blaming the victim, but probably there`s some truth in it. I definitely don`t get support or attention for being depresssed; I`m one of those people who tries to pass for "normal" and can`t imagine ever telling anyone about being depressed. Mainly it`s feeling I don`t deserve to be happy; a deep sense of badness to the core. Plus fear of having to do things I`m terrified of. The weird thing, is, I`ve forced myself to do many of these things over the years, but I think that deep down there`s a sense that as long as I`m depressed I`m not REALLY doing them, just going through the motions, so it doesn`t hurt as much if I fail. Cecilia
Posted by tabitha on June 13, 2002, at 3:22:34
In reply to Re: Afraid to get better?, posted by Cecilia on June 13, 2002, at 2:40:40
Great insights, about the set-point. I can't imagine a therapist saying that though, I'd feel dumped. How did you handle it?My therapist suggested I think I don't deserve to be happy. I can't connect with it though. It's more I just can't imagine myself happy. She asked what it would take to make me happy, and I drew a complete blank. Maybe that's fear of the unknown. I think I (and many people) just don't have a model for happiness. My mother was depressive, and having the same temperament is a kind of closeness. If I develop some new happy self it's like losing that connection, you know?
Intellectually I can say sure, it's fine to become happy, but at some level it would be like moving to some unfamiliar (thus terrifying) universe.
Posted by dave40252 on June 14, 2002, at 9:42:05
In reply to Re: Afraid to get better?, posted by Cecilia on June 13, 2002, at 2:40:40
I don't think i am afraid to get better, but this thread has given me things to think about - the comment, "I`ve forced myself to do many of these things over the years, but I think that deep down there`s a sense that as long as I`m depressed I`m not REALLY doing them, just going through the motions, so it doesn`t hurt as much if I fail.." has a familiar feel to it -
since begining treatment i have had intermittent brief periods of time when i have felt good - like how "normal" people must feel - when it happens i sure wish i could hold on to it. But there is a place i get to when i am on my way down where i almost feel like i am welcoming back the darkness - its almost as if i am mentally doing what i can to hasten the slide - and then that goes away when i start hurting real bad, then i just want to get better again
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