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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tanner on September 19, 2001, at 16:27:48
I found out last week that my therapist's brother is a NYC fireman who is missing & presumed dead. She's terrific, a real pro, and I know that she won't resume seeing patients until she is ready to focus and concentrate, but I'm still worried. I'm already thinking, "how can I go in and complain about my trivial problems when she's dealing with this?" I'm afraid this will really get in the way of therapy. Is anyone else out there in this situation?
Posted by susan C on September 20, 2001, at 11:46:07
In reply to My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack, posted by tanner on September 19, 2001, at 16:27:48
I am so sorry to hear about the continueing troubles. I have not had this situation, but I would guess that, as a professional, she will return when she is ready, and be a professional. You didnt mention how you found out, but you might consider sending her condolances, something simple like a card appreciating your appropriate concerns for her and your thanks for her help to you in the past and is there anything you can do to assist and looking forward to her continuing assistance to you if she is up to it, that kind of vague general we are all in this together kind of note.
a positive forward look mouse
susan c> I found out last week that my therapist's brother is a NYC fireman who is missing & presumed dead. She's terrific, a real pro, and I know that she won't resume seeing patients until she is ready to focus and concentrate, but I'm still worried. I'm already thinking, "how can I go in and complain about my trivial problems when she's dealing with this?" I'm afraid this will really get in the way of therapy. Is anyone else out there in this situation?
Posted by Roo on September 21, 2001, at 10:47:19
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack, posted by susan C on September 20, 2001, at 11:46:07
I know what you mean. My therapist didn't even
lose anyone in the attack (I dont' THINK anyway),
but I felt very inhibited, self conscious, and
self JUDGEMENTAL sitting there talking about my
"trivial" problems. I expressed that a lot in my
session, how selfish I felt "whining about my
little problems" when something so huge had just
happened. But as they say in Zen meditation, treating
yourself with compassion is the first step to being
able to be compassionate with others. So i've tried
not to beat myself up or judge myself as selfish
or trivial.
Posted by triedit on September 21, 2001, at 22:35:33
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack, posted by Roo on September 21, 2001, at 10:47:19
Personally I think its an opportunity to be human and to see therapists as human.
Also, sometimes in giving support--no matter how little--we realize how good we are and how necessary each soul is.
Posted by Noa on September 25, 2001, at 16:44:37
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack, posted by triedit on September 21, 2001, at 22:35:33
> Personally I think its an opportunity to be human and to see therapists as human.
>
> Also, sometimes in giving support--no matter how little--we realize how good we are and how necessary each soul is.That is nicely put.
Several years ago, my therapist's wife died at a young age. I, too, experienced some of the self-conscious thoughts described in this thread, but my therapist was comfortable processing them with me, and helped me to feel that my feelings and needs and issues were still important, that comparisons are beside the point. I am sure your therapist, whom you describe as a real pro, will help you through the process.
Posted by Mair on September 25, 2001, at 18:02:39
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack, posted by Noa on September 25, 2001, at 16:44:37
> >
>
>
"Several years ago, my therapist's wife died at a young age. I, too, experienced some of the self-conscious thoughts described in this thread, but my therapist was comfortable processing them with me, and helped me to feel that my feelings and needs and issues were still important, that comparisons are beside the point."Sorry Noa, but I couldn't let this one pass without comment. I don't care how much of a professional your therapist is/was. I have a very difficult time imagining him being able to speak about this in detached terms with his patients. I'd like to hear more about this. I have recently found myself in the knowledge about some info about my therapist's personal life. I sort of feel like I should bring this to her attention (let her know i know) but I can't seem to bring myself to do this and i don't want to put her on the spot. It's nothing on the order of what you're talking about, but it's still awkward.
BTW welcome back although I'm sorry for the circumstances that brought you back.
Mair (fka ksvt)
Posted by robinibor on September 26, 2001, at 20:46:25
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack » Noa, posted by Mair on September 25, 2001, at 18:02:39
A very good friend of mine and Dick's came over for lunch today, then took a nap on my couch, then I drove her back to the agency where she works one day a week now as a therapist. She had a mastectomy three months ago, has been having chemo every three weeks...all that scary stuff. I have been very involved, helping her with nausea by doing what we used to do years ago for fun, listening and talking a lot. (I'm not a therapist myself, but I've learned a lot reading Dick's writings and other literature around the house.)
The point here is that she mentioned that one of her clients has not said one word to her about what has been going on. Even though all appointments now have to be on Wednesdays, and even some of those had to be canceled when my friend was not feeling well. Even though she wears a scarf on her head, and even her eyebrows are gone. You know, my friend feels a little sad that this client has not even said, "I hope you are feeling better." Or, "I missed you." Or at least acknowledged her struggle in some small way. She doesn't have to, indeed shouldn't, feel she needs to bring chicken soup or anything like that...but a word or two to show you care is never out of line.
Posted by Mair on September 27, 2001, at 22:20:05
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack, posted by robinibor on September 26, 2001, at 20:46:25
>Robin - Don't you think the patient would love to say something but doesn't know what to say? Or is conditioned to feel that she shouldn't intrude on the therapist's personal life? Or feels that she doesn't want it to seem that she's more concerned with how this jeopardizes her therapy? I'm not condoning her silence. I just think there may be reasons for it that go beyond a lack of caring.
Mair
Posted by shelliR on September 27, 2001, at 22:50:29
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack » Noa, posted by Mair on September 25, 2001, at 18:02:39
> > >
> >
> >
> "Several years ago, my therapist's wife died at a young age. I, too, experienced some of the self-conscious thoughts described in this thread, but my therapist was comfortable processing them with me, and helped me to feel that my feelings and needs and issues were still important, that comparisons are beside the point."
>
> Sorry Noa, but I couldn't let this one pass without comment. I don't care how much of a professional your therapist is/was. I have a very difficult time imagining him being able to speak about this in detached terms with his patients. I'd like to hear more about this. I have recently found myself in the knowledge about some info about my therapist's personal life. I sort of feel like I should bring this to her attention (let her know i know) but I can't seem to bring myself to do this and i don't want to put her on the spot. It's nothing on the order of what you're talking about, but it's still awkward.
>
> BTW welcome back although I'm sorry for the circumstances that brought you back.
>
> Mair (fka ksvt)Mair, I'm going to have to agree with Noa here. I think that one loses a spouse it may be a long time before they feel ready to date again, but I think it would not take that long to be able to focus outside oneself on a patient's problems. I think it may be exactly what the therapist needs, in terms of getting out of grief mode, distraction. I can see easily a therapist saying yes, he has suffered a great tragedy, but he is gettng lots of support around that and is feeling ready to return to his work. To say that he/she would not be able to set aside those feelings to help other people seems like a horrible double whammy for s someone's horrible loss. Not only have they lost a significant partner,but now you are asking that they also lose another significant part of their lives--work.
Perhaps, I misunderstood you?
Shelli
Posted by shelliR on September 27, 2001, at 23:13:43
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack » robinibor, posted by Mair on September 27, 2001, at 22:20:05
> >Robin - Don't you think the patient would love to say something but doesn't know what to say? Or is conditioned to feel that she shouldn't intrude on the therapist's personal life? Or feels that she doesn't want it to seem that she's more concerned with how this jeopardizes her therapy? I'm not condoning her silence. I just think there may be reasons for it that go beyond a lack of caring.
>
> Mair
Hi Mair
.
Now it this case, I would agree with you, and would worry about whether Robin's freind is handling her situation well as a therapist. As Mair says, the patient may have a multitude of reasons or not mentioning the therapist's illness;: fear of triggering the therapist, fear of intrustion, or even underneath t the patient may be resentful that the therapist is ill, just like at times small children feel this about a parent because it may interrupt their role to fully engage in childhood.If you friend feels sad about this, then I think she is putting too many expectations on the patient. The patient should not have to be a certain way, for your friend to feel okay. I think her feelings of sadness about this one patient makes me wonder if this is possibly not a good working situation. I can't believe that she could feel this way toward the patient, and not have it affect the therapy in a negative way. I wonder if your friend went back to work too early, and has too many expectations from her patients.
Since she has deacided to work during her treatments, and since this feeling may be getting in the way of the progress of the patient, I think it is the therapist's responsiblity to bring it up,. She might mention that the patient has kept silent about the illness, and ask how her illnesss is affecting her feelings about working with the therapist. If the patient feels an opening in discussing those feelings, then it might be helpful. If the patient does not feel comfortable talking about it, and the therapist is "sad", then I believe it is better to either pospone the therapy until the therapist is well, or talk openly about the option of the patient finding a new therapist, during the therapist's illness.
Aside from civility, it always worries me when therapists "expect" or need something from patients.
Shelli
Posted by robinibor on September 28, 2001, at 9:33:53
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack » Mair, posted by shelliR on September 27, 2001, at 23:13:43
All of what has been said is true. I just told this story here as a way of saying it probably wouldn't hurt to give an encouraging word to the therapist who lost his wife in the WTC attack.
In my friend's case, she actually was concerned about this patient's lack of feeling for others in general. That happens to be one of the patient's issues with friends and family--not seeing that see expects everyone to pay attention to her, at the same time never giving when another is in pain even when she is "okay" herself.
>
> Since she has deacided to work during her treatments, and since this feeling may be getting in the way of the progress of the patient, I think it is the therapist's responsiblity to bring it up,. She might mention that the patient has kept silent about the illness, and ask how her illnesss is affecting her feelings about working with the therapist. If the patient feels an opening in discussing those feelings, then it might be helpful. If the patient does not feel comfortable talking about it, and the therapist is "sad", then I believe it is better to either pospone the therapy until the therapist is well, or talk openly about the option of the patient finding a new therapist, during the therapist's illness.
>
> Aside from civility, it always worries me when therapists "expect" or need something from patients.
>
> Shelli
Posted by shelliR on September 28, 2001, at 10:28:25
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack, posted by robinibor on September 28, 2001, at 9:33:53
> All of what has been said is true. I just told this story here as a way of saying it probably wouldn't hurt to give an encouraging word to the therapist who lost his wife in the WTC attack.
Therapist who lost her brother. (All the stories are flowing together :-) ) Yes, definitely --it is never in bad taste to give an encouraging word, *even* to a therapist.
Posted by tanner on September 28, 2001, at 11:50:47
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack » robinibor, posted by shelliR on September 28, 2001, at 10:28:25
Thanks for all the feedback - it helps.
In this case, my therapist has to deal not only with grieving for her brother, but to offer support for all her clients who naturally are dealing with their own reactions to the tragedy and need to talk about it. Seems like it would be a tough position for her. [part of this is coming from me: I'm a classic care-taker and hate to think of anyone being uncomfortable or anxious].
Anyway, she began seeing clients yesterday, although I won't see her until next week.I'm sure we'll hash it out.....
Posted by Mair on September 28, 2001, at 21:11:23
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack » Mair, posted by shelliR on September 27, 2001, at 22:50:29
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> "To say that he/she would not be able to set aside those feelings to help other people seems like a horrible double whammy for s someone's horrible loss. Not only have they lost a significant partner,but now you are asking that they also lose another significant part of their lives--work.">
> Isn't that what would happen to many of us regardless of profession? At least for a time? The difference is that most of us can be distracted at work and maybe there's no one person who is going to be offended by that. I've definitely had therapy sessions where a therapist is really just not as "with it" as he or she might ordinarily be. I accept that as human nature although I'd almost rather they recognized that and cancelled an ocassional session if they're not up to dealing with someone else's problems. Obviously it depends on the therapist and the nature of his or her problem but I don't think these people are always able to detach as well as they maybe ideally should.My own therapist compartmentalizes very well and is very professional about things. However, for the last several sessions she's just looked to me like she is under some strain. I am concerned for her but also somewhat anxious and I don't quite know how or whether I should even address it. It seems like my raising it would suggest to her that I don't think she's doing a very good job now because there appears to be something else in her life interfering. Any suggestions as to what I should do?
Mair
>
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2001, at 8:18:16
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack » shelliR, posted by Mair on September 28, 2001, at 21:11:23
Hi Mair,
This has actually come up quite a few times in my own therapy, since I have an enormously sensitive mood barometer along with a tendency to weave fantastic stories about things I don't understand. Fortunately I have always have had a policy of absolute honesty with my therapist and have always mentioned it. He's good enough and professional enough to own up to the truth of my perceptions without defensiveness, while making sure to not make me feel responsible for his feelings. If you have a professional and competent therapist, I would bring it up in a nonjudgemental way. Therapy is difficult enough without an unspoken cloud hanging over it.
Dinah
Posted by shelliR on September 29, 2001, at 19:35:53
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack » shelliR, posted by Mair on September 28, 2001, at 21:11:23
>
Hi Mair.You are definitely presenting a pretty murky situation. You know something about your therapist that she doesn't know you know. True? So are you reading into your therapy situation something that is not there? Or is your therapist truly not giving you the focused attention that she should be.
"I accept that as human nature although I'd almost rather they recognized that and cancelled an ocassional session if they're not up to dealing with someone else's problems. Obviously it depends on the therapist and the nature of his or her problem but I don't think these people are always able to detach as well as they maybe ideally should."
From that paragraph, I would say that you are pretty angry and feel like she should have taken some time off. That you don't feel like she's up to dealing with your problems.
"I am concerned for her but also somewhat anxious and I don't quite know how or whether I should even address it. It seems like my raising it would suggest to her that I don't think she's doing a very good job now because there appears to be something else in her life interfering. Any suggestions as to what I should do?"
Well, so what if you're implying that she isn't doing a good job right now. She isn't, so why would it be so horrible to mention? You are in a very ackward situation, knowing details that she doesn't know that you know. I don't know if you should tell her that you have heard what is going on in her life, or just tell her that you feel something is wrong with therapy right now. I think which ever makes you feel the most comfortable. She does not *have* to know that you know. But she does have to know that you feel that she has not been giving you the focus that she usually does, and that feels makes you feel uncomfortable, concerned, angry, etc. It might be if you bring up the latter point on it's own, she will supply the information. It may be that she isn't sure if you know or not, and that might be distracting from her focus.
The important thing is that that she should be focusing on you totally. That is her job. This is not a friendship, when at times you or your friend may be distracted. When I work, I really do put everything else out of the room. (I am a portrait photographer, and my life totally does not into the studio with me. I could not work up to the standards that are important to me.) So you definitely need to bring it up. And my guess is whichever way you bring it up, it will come together in the same way, and the outcome will be the same. Take care of you; she is strong enough to take care of herself.
Sorry that I can't be clearer. You have mentioned before that you live in a small town so this is one of the disadvantages. Murky waters. I think I may have made them murkier, but if there is any corneal you can pick out of what I said, that would be good enough for me.
Shelli
Posted by Mair on September 29, 2001, at 22:07:23
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack » Mair, posted by shelliR on September 29, 2001, at 19:35:53
> Shelli (and Dinah too) thanks for the responses. I was not clear in one respect however. The experience I had with a therapist who clearly was distracted by personal stuff, was not with this therapist. My current therapist is very good about focusing during sessions. Having said that, she has looked different to me lately - like someone who is stressed about something - and I am concerned about it. It's also possible that my view about all of this is colored by this other information I have. I would love to have someone I could hash this out with some, but I don't feel comfortable doing it on this board. I've posted my email address, and if you're otherwise willing, please send me a note. If you don't want to give me your email address, that's fine - I'd understand.
Mair
> >
>
Posted by Dinah on October 2, 2001, at 23:11:58
In reply to I was probably too obtuse » shelliR, posted by Mair on September 29, 2001, at 22:07:23
Mair
I still think complete honesty is necessary in a therapy situation. It has to be affecting the effectiveness of your therapy to have knowledge of something in your therapist's life and feeling that it is taboo to mention it, and also to feel concern for your therapist over her noticeable change in demeanor. The tension of secrets is probably causing you difficulties in concentrating on your own concerns. I'm sure that you can think of some way to mention the problem as it relates to the therapeutic situation (using those good "I" messages) without sounding accusing and while emphasizing respect for the therapeutic boundaries. If she is as professional as you say she is, I'm sure she'll be able to handle the situation.
Of course, I don't know all the particulars, so take my advice for what it's worth.
Dinah
Posted by Mair on October 3, 2001, at 22:10:55
In reply to Re: I was probably too obtuse » Mair, posted by Dinah on October 2, 2001, at 23:11:58
> Dinah - thanks, your advice is worth quite alot. Without going into the particulars, you are right about needing to raise this issue, if for no other reason than that I sometimes think about it in the middle of sessions. I'm working on forcing myself to talk to her about it.
Mair
Posted by Noa on October 4, 2001, at 16:21:49
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack » Mair, posted by shelliR on September 27, 2001, at 22:50:29
Shelli, in fact one of the things he had said at the time was that working was helpful for him in coping. He had actually told me that earlier, when his wife was dying, that the stability of work and focusing on patients was helpful to him.
Posted by Noa on October 4, 2001, at 16:26:58
In reply to Re: My therapist lost a family member in WTC attack » Mair, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2001, at 8:18:16
Mair, I agree with Dinah. Therapists are professionals and maintain good boundaries (hopefully) but they're people, too, so sometimes patients pick up on some very real signals that the therapist is under strain of some kind. A good therapist will acknowledge it because it can actually be crazy-making to deny a patient's perceptions. A good therapist will be able to acknowledge it but know just how much to disclose without burdening the patient, especially if the patient is a caretaking type of person.
Posted by Noa on October 4, 2001, at 16:29:01
In reply to Re: I was probably too obtuse, posted by Mair on October 3, 2001, at 22:10:55
BTW, for me, raising the feelings around this kind of thing has led to very rich, productive work in therapy. (Hard work, but good work)
Posted by Mair on October 5, 2001, at 13:31:21
In reply to Re: I was probably too obtuse, posted by Noa on October 4, 2001, at 16:29:01
> Noa - I think I know what you mean. I think I've been hampered in therapy by my need to keep some real emotional distance between myself and others, including my therapist. This probably partly explains my approach avoidance about raising issues related to the patient/therapist relationship.
Mair
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