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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 30. Go back in thread:
Posted by Marie1 on May 21, 2001, at 20:14:54
In reply to Marie..., posted by Kristi on May 20, 2001, at 14:23:25
Hi Kristi,
First of all, thank you for the kind words. As for my coping skills, that's debatable. The day I "remembered" the childhood sexual abuse, my husband and I were going to New Orleans for the weekend. I met him at the airport without half my luggage (I pack too much anyway!) and without telling my daughter's babysitter where we'd be! And here I thought I was handling it so well! Seriously, I felt sort of shellshocked, still do, for that matter. And there's not many people I want to talk about this to for obvious reasons. So it's nice to be able to safely get things off my chest here with people who can relate. I'm so glad you found this board. Please, don't apologize for any of your posts! (Unless, of course, Dr. Bob slaps your wrist with one of his "be civil" requests! :-})
Anyway, dysthymia is a sort of constant, low grade depression that people suffer from. I suspected I was depressed because I couldn't figure out why I was so unhappy all the time. The reaction from my family (not my husband) was - get it together. Stop whining. Eventually I got on Prozac and felt much better. Then my brother (32 yrs. old) killed himself, totally out of the blue. His computer journal left no doubt as to his state of mind (undiagnosed depression). Of course, I gained a lot of credibility by his suicide, but, ohmygod, at what cost.
Sorry, now I'm the one who is rambling. I just want to point out that we (my biological family) have this tendency towards depression. I had dysthymia, but then last year fell in to the pits of a full blown, suicide-craving, major depression, which is how I ended up in therapy, never realizing these things that I have repressed. I think my pdoc is wonderful, besides being very good at what he does. I guess he could tell by listening closely not only to what I said, but how I said it, that there were "issues". Besides, I freely admitted to him my tendency to over-indulge in alcohol (self-medicating) and other substance abuse, mostly the stimulating kinds.
It's too soon for me to decide if I'm glad this stuff came out. I feel very ashamed although I know I wasn't responsible. Actually, I think somewhere inside (not consciously) I made the decision to tell. It was like, all these things sort of came full circle and the timing was right. I hope this is making sense to you. In the interest of brevity, I'm trying to cram alot into a few paragraphs and it probably only makes sense to me...:-}
I'll be happy to share this experience with you...won't feel so alone or, well, pathetic. As to your situation, maybe your "inner self" will let you know when the time is right. Maybe that's why you found this place and are looking for opinions. Take it slow, but IMO, if you're ready to let go of your secrets, you will come out a "healthier" you. Take care.Marie
Posted by Marie1 on May 21, 2001, at 20:47:27
In reply to Re: Marie..., posted by shelliR on May 20, 2001, at 21:41:49
Hi Shelli,
I hope I can answer your question without causing more confusion because, frankly, it's not all that clear to me, even. The short answer is - no, I didn't have memories of sexual abuse before it came out in therapy. I had suspected things but never wanted to "go there". For instance, my sister told me of her abuse experiences (same perpetrator) and my immediate reaction was that I believed her, even though she is sort of known for histrionics and suffers from a credibility problem. The rest of my family still doesn't believe her, but I always did. Almost as though it had happened to me... Then these strange sexuality issues made me wonder. But if anyone had ever asked me if I had experienced sexual abuse (an over-used term, I know), I would have emphatically said "no". I think, because of unconscious messages I was giving my pdoc (do you understand that?), he thought I was repressing something and under his skillful questioning, I suddenly realized that what had happened to my sister had actually happened to me too. Even as I began to remember, I was denying it and then downplaying the whole thing, until I just had to admit it to myself. As I've learned about myself, this is my basic M.O. - I squash things until they have very little significance to me, at least on a conscious level.
I've only been in therapy a little over a year now, so this stuff is relatively new to me. And I think I remembered these things because it was time to. As Kristi said, it's mindboggling to realize the capacity we have for self delusion. But I guess that capability is a good thing.
If you don't mind my asking, how long have you been dealing with repressed memories? And what makes you remember them? Also, how do you deal with the shame involved (if you feel shame, that is)? Hope this makes sense to you. Take care.Marie
Posted by shelliR on May 21, 2001, at 21:23:52
In reply to Re: Marie..., posted by geekUK on May 21, 2001, at 19:50:15
> Im sorry I have to agree with noa,
> hypnotherapy has been shown in some studys to create memorys. One classic study involves Participants veiwing a video and then undergo hypnosis and are asked questions. one example from a 'bank robbery' film was "What was the numberplate of the getaway car?" Some peolpe gave some indication they saw it but couldnt make it out, some even gave a few letters + numbers to the experimentor- The licence plate was never in the film. The memory was created. You could try and search 'Psychology'+'Eye witness memory'+ 'hypnosis to read more. I was never that interested in it so I cant help more. Hypnosis is something I would not do personally. Before you do make sure you trust the therapist as suggestion will create memorys. possibly try other methods. and definitly review some litrature. If you get hypnotherapy you may come to the conclusion that the memorys cant be fully trusted and this will probably also make it harder to get to real memorys underneath. If you run into problems getting the right reading material put up a post and I'll try to lend a hand. oh well to bed perchance to sleep
> M"Since trauma arises from an inescapable stressful event that overwhelms people's coping mechanisms, it is uncertain to what
degree the results of laboratory studies of ordinary events are relevant to the understanding of traumatic memories." (Van Der Kolk). There is also a difference between repression and dissociation. Almost all of the studies you are referring to (1) don't involve trauma, and (2) focus on repression rather than dissociation.I would spend more time looking at the studies that collaborate the repressed memories: studies that use hospital records as conformation of later recalled memories, and studies out of a women's therapy center associated with Harvard that show that more than 70% of abused women with once repressed memories had their accounts collaborated by others who were either there, or knew in some other way. The number of therapists "planting memories" is minisule compared to the number of victims of sexual and physical abuse who used dissociation as a defense so they could survive horrible things.
Shelli
Posted by shelliR on May 21, 2001, at 21:55:27
In reply to Re: Marie... » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on May 21, 2001, at 20:47:27
Hi Marie.
Thanks for the answer. It sounds like you are doing really well after only a year. I have been working on this stuff for about six years, but I was (and still am) highly dissociated. I really don't know if I'll ever know all the memories-- have all of the parts of the memories. For the last year and a half I have been dealing with a severe depression and no new memories have come up. When things first came up though I had absolutely no idea. It just started as a voice inside of me telling what "I" had done.
The voice was very matter of fact at first; later started called me names (wh.re, etc.). Not how anyone else has told me they first knew.I believe your question about shame is such a pertintent one. I think the things that I still won't fully remember do have to do with being afraid of shame. The things I really know about and believe are things that happened at age three. I think I am able to remember and accept them because at age three I don't blame myself, so the shame element is not there. No matter how many times my therapist tells me I was not responsible at age eight, it still is hard for me to accept. So I think I stay blocked. I have the information, but not the reality of the details. I question my beliefs, but my sister doesn't.
I know I asked the question first, but since things are starting to come up on the board about "implanting" memories, it is hard for me to talk any further about this on a public board. It is a topic that greatly upsets me; actually really makes me very very angry. When that happens, I think the best thing for me is to withdrawal from the conversation. I do not want to get involved in defending hypnosis (although now I use mostly EMDR) or repressed memories.
Horrible things happen to children , so horrible that the only way to cope is to "forget". The horrible things were not created by our therapists.
And I'm so sorry that you have to deal with shame at all.
Shelli
Posted by Kristi on May 22, 2001, at 0:05:29
In reply to Re: Marie..., posted by Noa on May 21, 2001, at 11:26:35
> I would be very careful with the hypnotherapy thing. There may be good reasons you cannot remember those years, and if you use hypnotherapy to try to remember, you need to be sure the pace will go slow, and t hat the practitioner is highly skilled. Also, there have been cases here in the US where people underwent hypnotherapy, often with "truth serum" type of drugs, where it was found that the hypnotherapy was highly suggestive to the patient, and harmful.
Thanks for your advice. If I do decide to do this, I will do a lot of research first.. and go in as knowledgeable as I possibly can! Definately something I won't jump in to.
> I think it used to be that therapy was thought of as an uncovering process, but I think the emphasis is less on this now, because it isn't always so helpful to force things out.
Posted by Kristi on May 22, 2001, at 0:09:08
In reply to Re: Marie..., posted by geekUK on May 21, 2001, at 19:50:15
> Im sorry I have to agree with noa,
> hypnotherapy has been shown in some studys to create memorys. One classic study involves Participants veiwing a video and then undergo hypnosis and are asked questions. one example from a 'bank robbery' film was "What was the numberplate of the getaway car?" Some peolpe gave some indication they saw it but couldnt make it out, some even gave a few letters + numbers to the experimentor- The licence plate was never in the film. The memory was created. You could try and search 'Psychology'+'Eye witness memory'+ 'hypnosis to read more. I was never that interested in it so I cant help more. Hypnosis is something I would not do personally. Before you do make sure you trust the therapist as suggestion will create memorys. possibly try other methods. and definitly review some litrature. If you get hypnotherapy you may come to the conclusion that the memorys cant be fully trusted and this will probably also make it harder to get to real memorys underneath. If you run into problems getting the right reading material put up a post and I'll try to lend a hand. oh well to bed perchance to sleep
> M
Thanks for your offer in helping to find the right reading material. Very nice of you. That's a pretty "wow" story about the liscence plate..... Hmmmmm. Thanks, Kristi
Posted by Kristi on May 22, 2001, at 0:12:18
In reply to Re: Marie... » Kristi, posted by Marie1 on May 21, 2001, at 20:14:54
Hi Marie,
I was very "into" your story... and I know stuff like that is difficult to publically state. Is it possible that I can talk to you about it on a more private level? If you would be into that, let me know and I'll give you my e-mail address. Sounds like so many similarities.........
Take care, Kristi> Hi Kristi,
>
> First of all, thank you for the kind words. As for my coping skills, that's debatable. The day I "remembered" the childhood sexual abuse, my husband and I were going to New Orleans for the weekend. I met him at the airport without half my luggage (I pack too much anyway!) and without telling my daughter's babysitter where we'd be! And here I thought I was handling it so well! Seriously, I felt sort of shellshocked, still do, for that matter. And there's not many people I want to talk about this to for obvious reasons. So it's nice to be able to safely get things off my chest here with people who can relate. I'm so glad you found this board. Please, don't apologize for any of your posts! (Unless, of course, Dr. Bob slaps your wrist with one of his "be civil" requests! :-})
> Anyway, dysthymia is a sort of constant, low grade depression that people suffer from. I suspected I was depressed because I couldn't figure out why I was so unhappy all the time. The reaction from my family (not my husband) was - get it together. Stop whining. Eventually I got on Prozac and felt much better. Then my brother (32 yrs. old) killed himself, totally out of the blue. His computer journal left no doubt as to his state of mind (undiagnosed depression). Of course, I gained a lot of credibility by his suicide, but, ohmygod, at what cost.
> Sorry, now I'm the one who is rambling. I just want to point out that we (my biological family) have this tendency towards depression. I had dysthymia, but then last year fell in to the pits of a full blown, suicide-craving, major depression, which is how I ended up in therapy, never realizing these things that I have repressed. I think my pdoc is wonderful, besides being very good at what he does. I guess he could tell by listening closely not only to what I said, but how I said it, that there were "issues". Besides, I freely admitted to him my tendency to over-indulge in alcohol (self-medicating) and other substance abuse, mostly the stimulating kinds.
> It's too soon for me to decide if I'm glad this stuff came out. I feel very ashamed although I know I wasn't responsible. Actually, I think somewhere inside (not consciously) I made the decision to tell. It was like, all these things sort of came full circle and the timing was right. I hope this is making sense to you. In the interest of brevity, I'm trying to cram alot into a few paragraphs and it probably only makes sense to me...:-}
> I'll be happy to share this experience with you...won't feel so alone or, well, pathetic. As to your situation, maybe your "inner self" will let you know when the time is right. Maybe that's why you found this place and are looking for opinions. Take it slow, but IMO, if you're ready to let go of your secrets, you will come out a "healthier" you. Take care.
>
> Marie
Posted by Kristi on May 22, 2001, at 0:19:21
In reply to Re: memories » Marie1, posted by shelliR on May 21, 2001, at 21:55:27
> Hi Marie.
>
> Thanks for the answer. It sounds like you are doing really well after only a year. I have been working on this stuff for about six years, but I was (and still am) highly dissociated. I really don't know if I'll ever know all the memories-- have all of the parts of the memories. For the last year and a half I have been dealing with a severe depression and no new memories have come up. When things first came up though I had absolutely no idea. It just started as a voice inside of me telling what "I" had done.
> The voice was very matter of fact at first; later started called me names (wh.re, etc.). Not how anyone else has told me they first knew.
>
> I believe your question about shame is such a pertintent one. I think the things that I still won't fully remember do have to do with being afraid of shame. The things I really know about and believe are things that happened at age three. I think I am able to remember and accept them because at age three I don't blame myself, so the shame element is not there. No matter how many times my therapist tells me I was not responsible at age eight, it still is hard for me to accept. So I think I stay blocked. I have the information, but not the reality of the details. I question my beliefs, but my sister doesn't.This is so interesting to me. I can't say I can relate........ YET anyway, but I'm already learning alot here.
> I know I asked the question first, but since things are starting to come up on the board about "implanting" memories, it is hard for me to talk any further about this on a public board. It is a topic that greatly upsets me; actually really makes me very very angry. When that happens, I think the best thing for me is to withdrawal from the conversation. I do not want to get involved in defending hypnosis (although now I use mostly EMDR) or repressed memories.I'm sorry if your feeling uncomfortable Shelli... I'm the one who brought the topic up to begin with. I understand why you don't want to get involved in the tread and in defending hypnosis.. but I am certainly intrested in your view. I really am. But again, I understand if you want to stay away from the topic. Thanks for your views so far...... I appreciate them. I'm sure the fact that the board as been kind of hostile lately doesn't help any...... Kristi
> Horrible things happen to children , so horrible that the only way to cope is to "forget". The horrible things were not created by our therapists.
Agreed!
> And I'm so sorry that you have to deal with shame at all.
>
> Shelli
Posted by shelliR on May 22, 2001, at 5:37:12
In reply to Re: memories-shelli, posted by Kristi on May 22, 2001, at 0:19:21
Hi Kristie.
.< I'm sure the fact that the board as been kind of hostile lately doesn't help any...... >I just wanted to say that I don't think that either Geek UK or Noa has shown any hostility concerning hypnosis. I just don't agree with their perspective.
There are a few reported cases of implanting memories: one is a hospital incident in which doctors are being sued for convincing patients that they had been sexually abused, but this is not the norm. It's just this whole thing about repressed memories and "false" repressed memories has gotten so much press in the last few years that it often leads to really heated debates. It has become the mission of some people (The False Memory Group and Eliz Loftus, PhD) to convince the public that there is no such thing as repressed memories, that they are all implanted by therapists. That idea is so ludicrous and it upsets me so much that the uninformed public is believing them, that I can't deal with it. When a repressed memory becomes accessible, you know it. And if my therapist could implant memories, I would certainly have recall of all my memories by now!
But I'm still glad you were able to bring the topic up on the board. How memories become accessible and how to deal with them when they do become assessible are really important topics.
Shelli
Posted by shelliR on May 22, 2001, at 5:46:35
In reply to Re: memories- » Kristi, posted by shelliR on May 22, 2001, at 5:37:12
I forgot to say that in the hospital incident, I believe people were on very high amounts of medication, (benzos, etc.)
Posted by Kristi on May 22, 2001, at 9:02:32
In reply to Re: memories- » Kristi, posted by shelliR on May 22, 2001, at 5:37:12
> Hi Kristie.
>
>
> .< I'm sure the fact that the board as been kind of hostile lately doesn't help any...... >
>
> I just wanted to say that I don't think that either Geek UK or Noa has shown any hostility concerning hypnosis. I just don't agree with their perspective.No no...... I didn't mean that at all. Not at all,.. and to Noa and Geek... I hope you didn't take it that way. I was talking in general. You have both also helped me in gaining knowledge!
> There are a few reported cases of implanting memories: one is a hospital incident in which doctors are being sued for convincing patients that they had been sexually abused, but this is not the norm. It's just this whole thing about repressed memories and "false" repressed memories has gotten so much press in the last few years that it often leads to really heated debates. It has become the mission of some people (The False Memory Group and Eliz Loftus, PhD) to convince the public that there is no such thing as repressed memories, that they are all implanted by therapists. That idea is so ludicrous and it upsets me so much that the uninformed public is believing them, that I can't deal with it. When a repressed memory becomes accessible, you know it. And if my therapist could implant memories, I would certainly have recall of all my memories by now!
>
> But I'm still glad you were able to bring the topic up on the board. How memories become accessible and how to deal with them when they do become assessible are really important topics.
>
> Shelli
Posted by Kristi on May 22, 2001, at 9:05:37
In reply to Re: memories- » Kristi, posted by shelliR on May 22, 2001, at 5:37:12
What a pain I am... but again.... sorry to Noa and Geek Uk. The only thing I implied was to shelli's statement of a topic that angers her so she didn't want to go to into it... I was more or less referring to another very long thread that was very controversial. I just didn't want this to turn into that..... I'm sorry... :-)
> Hi Kristie.
>
>
> .< I'm sure the fact that the board as been kind of hostile lately doesn't help any...... >
>
> I just wanted to say that I don't think that either Geek UK or Noa has shown any hostility concerning hypnosis. I just don't agree with their perspective.
>
> There are a few reported cases of implanting memories: one is a hospital incident in which doctors are being sued for convincing patients that they had been sexually abused, but this is not the norm. It's just this whole thing about repressed memories and "false" repressed memories has gotten so much press in the last few years that it often leads to really heated debates. It has become the mission of some people (The False Memory Group and Eliz Loftus, PhD) to convince the public that there is no such thing as repressed memories, that they are all implanted by therapists. That idea is so ludicrous and it upsets me so much that the uninformed public is believing them, that I can't deal with it. When a repressed memory becomes accessible, you know it. And if my therapist could implant memories, I would certainly have recall of all my memories by now!
>
> But I'm still glad you were able to bring the topic up on the board. How memories become accessible and how to deal with them when they do become assessible are really important topics.
>
> Shelli
Posted by Marie1 on May 22, 2001, at 9:09:21
In reply to Re: memories » Marie1, posted by shelliR on May 21, 2001, at 21:55:27
Shelli,
I respect your feelings regarding the controversial aspect of the repressed memory thing, but I'd like to get your opinion on one last thing if you don't mind. I think you are absolutely on target about the shame. That feeling has been the greatest hindrance in discussing the abuse with my pdoc. I think it makes sense to want to avoid that feeling (as you said), and makes me want to avoid any further discussion which may result in more memories. My question to you is: do you think it's necessary to remember *everything* in order to get past this (if that's even possible)? I'm really feeling reluctant to go to my therapy app't, this week because I know he'll want to talk about it. A trip to the dentist for root canal would be a day at the beach in comparison! :-}
Kate
p.s. I think I can understand how in some cases a therapist can "implant" a memory, but how could they manage to infuse the associated shame? I would think that's a whole different thing altogether.
Posted by Marie1 on May 22, 2001, at 9:28:21
In reply to Re: Marie...Marie, posted by Kristi on May 22, 2001, at 0:12:18
Kristi,
If you want to let me know your e-mail address, I'll be happy to send you mine. I have to admit, I'm very paranoid about anonymity; if I didn't feel safe here I would never have posted most of the things that I have. "Marie" isn't even my real name. Its funny that I should be so paranoid because I can really soapbox on the issue of mental health and the attached stigma. I blame my brother's death, in part, on the stigma; it's even harder to admit to when you're a guy, I think. I'm glad to see so many men posting here who are "out of the closet" - and I don't mean gay!! :-} Take care.Marie
Posted by shelliR on May 22, 2001, at 9:50:11
In reply to Re: memories » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on May 22, 2001, at 9:09:21
> Hi Kate,> My question to you is: do you think it's necessary to remember *everything* in order to get past this (if that's even possible)? I'm really feeling reluctant to go to my therapy app't, this week because I know he'll want to talk about it. A trip to the dentist for root canal would be a day at the beach in comparison! :-}
>
I think your first question is the answer I would give, that it may not be possible to remember *everything* and I've been told by different people (therapists included) that it's not necessary. But the other part, about the shame, I think is imperative. I think (and it's just my opinion, of course) that it's absolutely necessary to talk about what you know about it enough to not feel the shame. If you are reluctant to talk about it with your therapist, you should still be talking about it.Shame is the a horrible feeling to carry around. It affects your total self esteem and is probably the most important thing that anyone wants to get rid of in therapy, whether they have been sexually abused or not. Most everyone carries around shame from the past and I suspect that is what most people spend a lot of time in therapy about. Shame is the worst because it usually has to do with something that's not our fault (different from embarrassment, or guilt). So yes, keeping talking!
Shelli
Posted by Kristi on May 22, 2001, at 10:13:23
In reply to Re: Marie...Marie » Kristi, posted by Marie1 on May 22, 2001, at 9:28:21
Marie,
Understood.... and thanks for the information you shared so far. I'm truly sorry for all you've been through. Take care.... and I'm sorry if I've brought out things you didn't want to talk about, Kristi... :-)> Kristi,
> If you want to let me know your e-mail address, I'll be happy to send you mine. I have to admit, I'm very paranoid about anonymity; if I didn't feel safe here I would never have posted most of the things that I have. "Marie" isn't even my real name. Its funny that I should be so paranoid because I can really soapbox on the issue of mental health and the attached stigma. I blame my brother's death, in part, on the stigma; it's even harder to admit to when you're a guy, I think. I'm glad to see so many men posting here who are "out of the closet" - and I don't mean gay!! :-} Take care.
>
> Marie
Posted by shelliR on May 22, 2001, at 12:05:19
In reply to Re: memories-, posted by Kristi on May 22, 2001, at 9:02:32
> > .< I'm sure the fact that the board as been kind of hostile lately doesn't help any...... >
> >
> > I just wanted to say that I don't think that either Geek UK or Noa has shown any hostility concerning hypnosis. I just don't agree with their perspective.
>
Kristie, now it's my turn to apologize. I should have phrased my statement, that I wanted GeekUK and Noa to know I hadn't felt any hostility from them. I just wanted to make that clear since I wanted to bow out of the repressed memory discussion. The way I phrased it, it sort of got coupled it with your statement, which was not my intent. It was clear to me that you were talking about hostility from other threads, not this one. And I'm sure it was clear to them also.Shelli
Posted by Marie1 on May 22, 2001, at 14:57:33
In reply to Re: Marie...Marie, posted by Kristi on May 22, 2001, at 10:13:23
Kristi - no problem, really. And as Shelli has said, I guess I need to talk about it. Take care.
Marie
> Marie,
> Understood.... and thanks for the information you shared so far. I'm truly sorry for all you've been through. Take care.... and I'm sorry if I've brought out things you didn't want to talk about, Kristi... :-)
>
>
>
>
>
> > Kristi,
> > If you want to let me know your e-mail address, I'll be happy to send you mine. I have to admit, I'm very paranoid about anonymity; if I didn't feel safe here I would never have posted most of the things that I have. "Marie" isn't even my real name. Its funny that I should be so paranoid because I can really soapbox on the issue of mental health and the attached stigma. I blame my brother's death, in part, on the stigma; it's even harder to admit to when you're a guy, I think. I'm glad to see so many men posting here who are "out of the closet" - and I don't mean gay!! :-} Take care.
> >
> > Marie
Posted by geekUK on May 23, 2001, at 21:56:02
In reply to Re: Marie...-geek, posted by Kristi on May 22, 2001, at 0:09:08
> > Im sorry I have to agree with noa,
> > hypnotherapy has been shown in some studys to create memorys. One classic study involves Participants veiwing a video and then undergo hypnosis and are asked questions. one example from a 'bank robbery' film was "What was the numberplate of the getaway car?" Some peolpe gave some indication they saw it but couldnt make it out, some even gave a few letters + numbers to the experimentor- The licence plate was never in the film. The memory was created. You could try and search 'Psychology'+'Eye witness memory'+ 'hypnosis to read more. I was never that interested in it so I cant help more. Hypnosis is something I would not do personally. Before you do make sure you trust the therapist as suggestion will create memorys. possibly try other methods. and definitly review some litrature. If you get hypnotherapy you may come to the conclusion that the memorys cant be fully trusted and this will probably also make it harder to get to real memorys underneath. If you run into problems getting the right reading material put up a post and I'll try to lend a hand. oh well to bed perchance to sleep
> > M
>
>
> Thanks for your offer in helping to find the right reading material. Very nice of you. That's a pretty "wow" story about the liscence plate..... Hmmmmm. Thanks, Kristiyeah, I know its a pretty story, but seriously I would worry about the possibility of having some unreliable memorys that you could never know if they were true, but I guess thats the same with all memorys.
M
Posted by Kristi on May 24, 2001, at 0:49:47
In reply to Re: Marie...-geek » Kristi, posted by geekUK on May 23, 2001, at 21:56:02
I agree.... I guess I'm just not willing to take that chance. I'm glad you brought that up... about the plates, really made me think. So thanks! Kristi
> > > Im sorry I have to agree with noa,
> > > hypnotherapy has been shown in some studys to create memorys. One classic study involves Participants veiwing a video and then undergo hypnosis and are asked questions. one example from a 'bank robbery' film was "What was the numberplate of the getaway car?" Some peolpe gave some indication they saw it but couldnt make it out, some even gave a few letters + numbers to the experimentor- The licence plate was never in the film. The memory was created. You could try and search 'Psychology'+'Eye witness memory'+ 'hypnosis to read more. I was never that interested in it so I cant help more. Hypnosis is something I would not do personally. Before you do make sure you trust the therapist as suggestion will create memorys. possibly try other methods. and definitly review some litrature. If you get hypnotherapy you may come to the conclusion that the memorys cant be fully trusted and this will probably also make it harder to get to real memorys underneath. If you run into problems getting the right reading material put up a post and I'll try to lend a hand. oh well to bed perchance to sleep
> > > M
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your offer in helping to find the right reading material. Very nice of you. That's a pretty "wow" story about the liscence plate..... Hmmmmm. Thanks, Kristi
>
> yeah, I know its a pretty story, but seriously I would worry about the possibility of having some unreliable memorys that you could never know if they were true, but I guess thats the same with all memorys.
> M
Posted by mila on May 24, 2001, at 22:45:06
In reply to Re: memories- » Kristi, posted by shelliR on May 22, 2001, at 5:37:12
Hi Shelli
here's a good link that supports your postition on recovered memories.
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Taubman_Center/Recovmem/Archive.html
best wishes
mila
Posted by shelliR on May 24, 2001, at 23:31:28
In reply to Recovered memory project Shelli, posted by mila on May 24, 2001, at 22:45:06
> Hi Shelli
>
> here's a good link that supports your postition on recovered memories.
>
> http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Taubman_Center/Recovmem/Archive.html
>
> best wishes
> milaThanks Mila. I have actually seen that site and feel grateful for the people who are spending the energy to combat the illusion that repressioned memories can not exist.
I really wonder about Elizabeth Loftus, PhD who is spending all her time writing papers denouncing the possiblity of repressed memory based on laboratory experiences and testifiying against victims who have recovered memories. She has to know the truth, in fact she wrote an early paper about repressed memories which is never quoted by her or the press. It makes me wonder what she is repressing.
Shelli
Posted by mila on May 25, 2001, at 8:13:34
In reply to Re: Recovered memory project Shelli » mila, posted by shelliR on May 24, 2001, at 23:31:28
Hi Shelli,
I do not have much to say about Liz Loftus, except that she is a hell of a researcher... in her area of expertise. She was active in the 70-80ies and well into the 90ies in cognitive and social research into memory mechanisms. Historically, personality psychology (the one that deals with repression and other defence mechanisms) was in decay then, mostly because of impressive advances in cognitive and social psychology and abandonment of freudian dogma which fathered the concept of repression to begin with. Not only freudian theory proved next to impossible to verify experimentally, its adherents being considered by American scientific establishment members of a cult, Freud himself was proven to be guilty of implanting memories of abuse in his patients.
Anyways, Liz Loftus era is over, and personality psychology is lifting its head again. There are exceptionally interesting studies on defence mechanisms being undertaken, and very impressive books being published. There is yet much to discover about just how our memory works and what influences it and how. Loftus is not wrong, she is not completely right. This is only due to her specialization. As far as legal aspect concerned, you know very well that we need both good attorneys and prosecutors, so that no criminal will go unpunished, and no innocent person would be thrown to jail. Loftus was helping attorneys, so to speak, but personality psychologists might help a bit to the prosecutors nowadays by proving that repression is in fact very real.
I feel awful that people who suffered from abuse and got some grip on it and are on their road to recovery have to prove themselves to anyone. This societal attitude of disbelief is cruel and perpetuates the cycle of abuse. It is called blame the victim strategy. First they tell you that it is all in your head, and next that it is all your fault anyways. No good. I am glad to live in some better times, today. Loftus's rise to power and intellectual reign made many a sufferer's life more miserable, that is for sure. But it is only because there was no opposing/complementing her line of work scientific force then.
love
mila
Posted by shelliR on May 25, 2001, at 9:05:57
In reply to Re:Loftus Shelli, posted by mila on May 25, 2001, at 8:13:34
Mila,Basically, reading your post made me feel sick inside. I thought I had learned to not get involved in any discussions concerning false memories, but your mention of the website documenting uncovered, collaborated repressed memories, led to me to let down my defenses about it.
>Loftus is not wrong, she is not completely right.
Either there are repressed memories which become conscious or there's not. Since there are and they are collaborated ,and since she says that there are absolutely not--that it is impossible, she is absolutely wrong in that particular area. If you can justify her participation in dozens of trials against rapists as fair representation in the court system, fine; I see her as a woman who took on a lie and relently held on to it despite so much contrary evidence and tried to spread it. And attempted to revictimize truama survivors.
And as far as her research being brilliant--we must have a very different sense of what is brilliant. I also have a masters degree in psychology and I can analyze methodology as well as the next person. Many of her studies involve Ns of 1, 2 or 3. And her biggest N is the holocaust--no interviews just interpretation. Brillant.
Of course you are free to believe and write what you want on this board. But any posts directed to me by you and probably anyone else regarding false memories I will no longer read. It's not even debatable and wastes my emotional energy.
I hope this time I have learned what thought I had already learned.
Shelli
Posted by mila on May 25, 2001, at 12:13:48
In reply to Re:Loftus » mila, posted by shelliR on May 25, 2001, at 9:05:57
Thank you , Shelli,
it's been great talking to you. You inspired me.best wishes
milaP.S. the story that you are telling is fascinating and gripping, I just read an article about Loftus that made me understand you better (I have never repressed any of my memories of abuse, rape, murder attempt,and torture, so I am on a different side of the fence, so to speak.) Thank you for being here and speaking out. You are beautiful.
http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/articles/psytoday.htm
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