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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 23 to 47 of 59. Go back in thread:
Posted by ksvt on November 20, 2000, at 20:04:57
In reply to Re: Vaya con Dios Hannah, posted by B Day on November 20, 2000, at 12:43:21
>Hannah - let me add myself to the chorus of people sorry to see you feeling so awful and leaving this board. Obviously we were all a little slow in picking up on what was happening to you. I hope you can channel some of the anger you seem to feel towards yourself to clawing your way out of this temporary pit. Good Luck ksvt
Hannah,
>
> I'm also sorry to see you go. You seemed to be having a pretty rough time of it last night.
>
> As I mentioned last night, you will be missed.
>
> Prays and best wishes,
>
> B
Posted by ksvt on November 20, 2000, at 20:39:29
In reply to Re: Vaya con Dios Hannah, posted by B Day on November 20, 2000, at 12:43:21
>Hannah - I really hope you're ok. I came to this Board tonight in a pretty horrible frame of mind. I had an appointment with my therapist today where we mostly just talkied about how the last couple of years of therapy have done very little to curb my rather rampant and persistent suicidal ideation. I've come to look at it as an untreatable symptom that is just a part of me now and not necessarily related to depression. It's a pretty awful thought that I'm just going to spend the rest of my life drifting in and out of states where I'm either not thinking about myself at all, or ruminating all the time and feeling very self destructive. I can't figure out what's worse, worrying that I'm wasting my time in therapy or worrying that my therapist is going to bail out on me out of a sense of pure frustration that I can't seem to get it. I know this is probably an unintended result of your posts, but reading through this thread, has forced me to direct myself outward. What you've been going through sounds alot worse than my preoccupations. I hope things start looking up for you. Pax ksvt
Hannah,
>
> I'm also sorry to see you go. You seemed to be having a pretty rough time of it last night.
>
> As I mentioned last night, you will be missed.
>
> Prays and best wishes,
>
> B
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 20, 2000, at 20:52:52
In reply to Re: What I meant to say..... , posted by Dr. Bob on November 20, 2000, at 9:14:56
> > Sorry if anyone's feelings were bruised. Nothing that can't be cured by chocolate I trust.
>
> I don't think I can consider that very respectful of others' feelings, so I'm going to go ahead and block this "handle".
>
> Bob> > Sorry if anyone's feelings were bruised. Nothing that can't be cured by chocolate I trust.
>
> I don't think I can consider that very respectful of others' feelings, so I'm going to go ahead and block this "handle".
>
> BobDr. Bob do you mean your feelings or did you block Hannah for disrespecting fantasy characters?
I realize she disrespected your person but she did apologize. The chocolate was a reference to Lumptonia, a fantasy. The Lumptonians she insulted were fantasy characters. It's your board and you can ban anyone you want to but I think it's interesting to consider what's real and what's part of a game. Are you the protector of Lumptonia and all it's fantasy characters? Do they have the same "rights" and "obligations" as other posters?
If somebody maligned my butt and called me EVIL I might ban them too but I think I would consider the insult ridiculous enough that any apology would suffice. Was the apology disrespectful of your feelings personally? Or is Hannah being banned for not being respectful of the fantasy characters' feelings?
I'm not trying to cause any controversy,though I obviously disagree with your decision. I am interested to know how you see your relationship with the Lumptonians. They should consider their fantasy quite a success if you've been drawn into it yourself.
Posted by coral on November 20, 2000, at 21:21:15
In reply to Re: What I meant to say..... » Dr. Bob, posted by Dasypodidae on November 20, 2000, at 20:52:52
Dear Dasypodidae,
While I've been a participant in Lumptonia, I am not a fantasy character and got slammed pretty hard by Hannah, as did a couple of other real people. While I do not presume to speak for Dr. Bob, it wouldn't surprise me if the blocking was a response to cumulative attacks.
I sincerely wish the very best for Hannah and am so terribly sorry for any part that I may have played in her difficulties.
While I am loathe to risk offending anyone, I am uncomfortable with the term "fantasy" as I am interpreting its use. If I have misinterpreted, please allow me to apologize in advance. In absolute sincerity, the humor of Lumptonia is very real and has been a very bright spot in some horribly dark days for me.
Something that Shar said earlier --- and I am paraphrasing, that there seems more going on here than just two threads. I'm wondering if she's right.
Could it be possible that humor is on trial here?
Coral
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 21, 2000, at 5:21:29
In reply to The Dark Night of the Unlumpy, posted by Hannah on November 19, 2000, at 23:14:08
And how were the rest of us to know that the chocolate thing was a reference to Lumptonia?? I know you're all getting very protective of it, but I read the comment as very dismissive of anyone elses feelings.
~sighs~ Maybe non-lumptonians simply aren't good enough any more to post / read anything anymore, and anything bad that happens can easily be explained away as a "lumptonian thing". Just bear in mind other people - please.
Nikki
Posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 6:11:51
In reply to The chocolate comment..., posted by NikkiT2 on November 21, 2000, at 5:21:29
Dear Nikkie,
My reference had nothing to do with the chocolate comment or anything Lumptonian at all. Obviously, I'm completely misunderstanding your point.
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 7:43:16
In reply to Re: The chocolate comment..., posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 6:11:51
I'd like to try, for now, limiting Lumptonian references and expressions to the "Labrassador" thread. OK
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20001117/msgs/3028.htmlWill do!!!!! THANKS DR BOB!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 21, 2000, at 7:53:13
In reply to Re: The chocolate comment..., posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 6:11:51
Coral - it was directed at Dasypodidae!! Sorry, should have put the name of the poster on there!!
Hectic hectic day at work, brain not in full gear, and it's my birthday!!!! Had to cancel lunchtime drinkies cos of too much work.. so unfair!! :o)
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 8:04:39
In reply to Restricting Content per Dr Bobs decree :o), posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 7:43:16
Good Morning Hannah
I'm posting a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem for you and anyone else who is struggling. My favorite phrase is "that year of now done darkness". Because the fact that it will end or even the possibility that it will end is something to cling to. And encouraging you to hope, wish day come, and not choose not to be.
NOT, I’ll not, carrion comfort, Despair, not feast on thee;
Not untwist—slack they may be—these last strands of man
In me ór, most weary, cry I can no more. I can;
Can something, hope, wish day come, not choose not to be.
But ah, but O thou terrible, why wouldst thou rude on me 5
Thy wring-world right foot rock? lay a lionlimb against me? scan
With darksome devouring eyes my bruisèd bones? and fan,
O in turns of tempest, me heaped there; me frantic to avoid thee and flee?
Why? That my chaff might fly; my grain lie, sheer and clear.
Nay in all that toil, that coil, since (seems) I kissed the rod, 10
Hand rather, my heart lo! lapped strength, stole joy, would laugh, chéer.
Cheer whom though? the hero whose heaven-handling flung me, fóot tród
Me? or me that fought him? O which one? is it each one? That night, that year
Of now done darkness I wretch lay wrestling with (my God!) my God.
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 8:13:15
In reply to Re: The chocolate comment... » coral, posted by NikkiT2 on November 21, 2000, at 7:53:13
I think you may have misunderstood me a little but I think Dr Bob has solved the problem by asking posts on that unfortunate subject(in my personal opinion no offense to anybody else) to be restricted to one thread.
Happy Birthday!!!!!!!!!
D
> Coral - it was directed at Dasypodidae!! Sorry, should have put the name of the poster on there!!
>
> Hectic hectic day at work, brain not in full gear, and it's my birthday!!!! Had to cancel lunchtime drinkies cos of too much work.. so unfair!! :o)
Posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 8:20:28
In reply to Re: The chocolate comment... » coral, posted by NikkiT2 on November 21, 2000, at 7:53:13
Dear Nikki,
Ooops!! Sorry...
HAPPY BIRTHDDAY!!!!!! And, they're working you too hard! On your birthday? Not fair!!!!!
Just celebrate your birthday for a week! :)
Coral
Posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 11:10:37
In reply to Re: The chocolate comment..., posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 8:20:28
OK, how did y'all know it was Nikki's B-day?
Happy Birthday, Nikki! Celebrate!
Posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 12:20:18
In reply to Re: The chocolate comment..., posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 11:10:37
Dear Noa,
I divined that it was Nikki's birthday through an ancient and secret ritual by considering the alignment of the oak leaves as they fell during the recent cold blustery weather.... :)
Actually, I found out by answering a post that wasn't meant for me (would that make me guilty of evesreading???) when she pointed out my error by kindly taking on the responsibility of my mistake, indicating she wasn't thinking clearly because she had too much work to do to celebrate her birthday!
Warmly,
Coral
Posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 15:06:30
In reply to Re: To Noa, posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 12:20:18
Thanks for solving the mystery--sometimes I am amazed at what I miss around here!
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 21:16:10
In reply to Re: To Noa, posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 15:06:30
I don't have anything to say except that just because some people make fun of you doesn't mean they're right. There are still people who do want you to hang on and will try to listen to you and help you. I encourage you to hang on. I hope you find a place where people are willing to be kind to you. Keep in mind that the other people on this board (including me) have problems too. And some of the cruel and sarcastic threads may be the reflection of that rather than intentional attempts to inflict pain on you. That's giving them the benefit of the doubt, but why not? I hope your Samaritan got in touch with you and things are looking up. I noticed your attempts to reach out to some of the others and to give support or comfort as well as your unfortunate attempt to join the "games". I think you're worth a lot as a person and hope you can learn to see that too. God be with you.
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 21:28:03
In reply to Hi Hannah and other Suicidal people, posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 21:16:10
Here's a link to the about site for mental health. It has loads of links. I know there are lots of other resources out there. In fact so many, it's kind of overwhelming. I know the Depression site at About has a chat room if you like that kind of thing. I know how hard holidays can be.
http://mentalhealth.about.com/index.htm?rnk=c2&terms=Mental+Health
> I don't have anything to say except that just because some people make fun of you doesn't mean they're right. There are still people who do want you to hang on and will try to listen to you and help you. I encourage you to hang on. I hope you find a place where people are willing to be kind to you. Keep in mind that the other people on this board (including me) have problems too. And some of the cruel and sarcastic threads may be the reflection of that rather than intentional attempts to inflict pain on you. That's giving them the benefit of the doubt, but why not? I hope your Samaritan got in touch with you and things are looking up. I noticed your attempts to reach out to some of the others and to give support or comfort as well as your unfortunate attempt to join the "games". I think you're worth a lot as a person and hope you can learn to see that too. God be with you.
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 21:49:55
In reply to Hannah if you're out there, posted by ksvt on November 20, 2000, at 20:39:29
today where we mostly just talkied about how the last couple of years of therapy have done very little to curb my rather rampant and persistent suicidal ideation. I've come to look at it as an untreatable symptom that is just a part of me now > >
Me too ksvt me too. Prozac totally stopped the sudden overwhelming suicidal impulses I had when I was younger and I am grateful for that. But it didn't touch the slower persistent but less overwhelming thoughts. I don't know why I'm posting this gloomy report about myself. But it made me feel less alone to know that someone else is struggling with this. Thanks and I wish the best for you.
Posted by shar on November 21, 2000, at 22:20:52
In reply to Re: Suicidal people, posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 21:28:03
There is a website for people in crisis and contemplating suicide. It is www.metanoia.org and is a very good place to visit if someone is feeling like acting on their suicidal feelings.
I have had unrelenting suicidal ideation since I was a young child (good training from the "you should never have been born" club, I think). As an adult, the only respite I had was a short time on Zoloft before it pooped out. I hope it will go away if I find the right mix of ADs, but so far it has been quite stable, always there.
If someone is not clear about how they are feeling, or talks in code, or mixes cruelty with sarcasm and "cries for help" I am not likely to see that person as someone genuinely asking for help. Most people on this board, in my experience, who are feeling desperate or suicidal are pretty blunt about it, or angry, -- but quite clear. I "hear" that (as do many others here that respond to that sense of despair that comes through).
Shar
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 23:27:36
In reply to Suicide Web Site, posted by shar on November 21, 2000, at 22:20:52
> There is a website for people in crisis and contemplating suicide. It is www.metanoia.org and is a very good place to visit if someone is feeling like acting on their suicidal feelings.
>
Thanks for posting that,I'm going to go check it out.
> I have had unrelenting suicidal ideation since I was a young child (good training from the "you should never have been born" club, I think). As an adult, the only respite I had was a short time on Zoloft before it pooped out. I hope it will go away if I find the right mix of ADs, but so far it has been quite stable, always there.
I'm sorry. It must be horrible. I hope you will find the right mix too. At least the Zoloft let you know that it was possible to feel some other way. Of course I guess in some ways that was a mixed blessing since now you know what you are missing. I used to think what if the final horror was that everyone felt the way I did and just didn't talk about it and there was no other possibility. Anyway I really am sorry.
>> If someone is not clear about how they are feeling, or talks in code, or mixes cruelty with sarcasm and "cries for help" I am not likely to see that person as someone genuinely asking for help. Most people on this board, in my experience, who are feeling desperate or suicidal are pretty blunt about it, or angry, -- but quite clear. I "hear" that (as do many others here that respond to that sense of despair that comes through).
I guess it takes all kinds of listeners. I think people can sometimes have a hard time communicating overpowering emotions. I heard an almost overwhelming sense of pain and despair and hopelessness and anger and rejection. I certainly don't intend any criticism of you for hearing something different.
D
Posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 7:56:23
In reply to Re: Suicide Web Site » shar, posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 23:27:36
>I certainly don't intend any criticism of you...
D--
None taken. I'm very sure of what I didn't hear.Shar
Posted by ksvt on November 22, 2000, at 12:37:25
In reply to Re: Suicide Web Site » Dasypodidae , posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 7:56:23
> >I weigh in here with immense trepidation, I know people on this board are super sensitive to even the hint of criticism. However, dysypodidae kindly acknowledged my last post, and dasypodidae and shar have been discussing something that's pretty uppermost for me now. Thinking about suicide has been something of an obsession of late. This is something I've struggled with, not since childhood like you Shar, but for about 5 years or so since I started being treated for a second episode of major depression. For me, it's like a voice that's always lurking in the background and sometimes comes to the forefront and gets loud and persistent. It doesn't seem to take a hell of a lot to trigger it and at some point it does quiet down, but the frequency and length of the "visits" can make it very tough to deal with. I have 2 kids, a 12 year old and a 15 year old, who but for occasional displays of the dual personalities of adolescents, are great kids. I can be very critical of the job I do as a parent and I can think that they deserve a more competent, less self-absorbed parent but I have never ever deluded myself into thinking that they would be better off if I killed myself. I don't view this as doing anyone any favors issue - this is just me finding it oppressively tough to live with me. As I'm sure you all know, thinking this way is profoundly isolating. It's not something I can share with my husband. I feel lately like my pdoc has sort of withdrawn from the scene, and I really don't think there is anything he can do anyway.Lastly, I'm so embarrassed by my lack of progress on this issue, that I really don't think I can talk about it much with my therapist. I'm really sort of afraid that she's going to give up on me, which is sort of stupid since I've sort of given up on me. So right now I just brood about it (unwillingly), and feel like I'm engaged in a huge exercise in futility. Those of you who have ever watched Star Trek will remember the watchwords of the Borg "resistance is futile."
When I first started coming to this board, I was overwelmed by the amount of support and caring that I saw. My feelings now aren't quite as charitable. I see lots of examples of nonresponsiveness or flip responses or insensitive responses or no responses. When Dr. Bob posts one of his "be civil" responses, people seem to be knocking each other over to come back to him, but the person who posted the original offending comment, and the reasons the remark was made, gets very easily lost in the shuffle. Hannah, may have had some rough edges, but she also could be very kind. I think it sucks frankly that she was blockedand blocked so abruptly. You may not have read her remarks as truly suicidal, but I certainly read anger and despair. I thought the level and immediacy of her distress should have been taken into account, before her voice was cut off. A person shouldn't be ignored or their suicidal ramblings discounted simply because they're not likely to carry through with their threats. I've been asked on numerous occasions if I considered myself to be "at risk." I always thought that this was an absurd question because the term "at risk" seems to be a psychiatric term and I'm not qualified to draw medical conclusions. Nearly all of the time I've said no because I think the image of my children will always stop me. However, trusting that I won't take that last step doesn't make thinking about it any more tolerable. Knowing that I'm going to spend the rest of my life drifting in (mostly in apparently) and out of these states, can be very intolerable. ksvtI certainly don't intend any criticism of you...
>
> D--
> None taken. I'm very sure of what I didn't hear.
>
> Shar
Posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 12:56:18
In reply to Re: Suicide Web Site » Dasypodidae , posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 7:56:23
Where do I start--these last few posts are about so much. I'll start here with one topic, and post about others in another post.
Unrelenting suicidal feelings are oppressive. An oppressive life. Maybe I am wrong, but I have to think that it is worth continuing the search for a better med combo to ease this opression.
I guess at this point, I don't expect myself to never experience any suicidal thoughts or feelings, but I do expect to have periods without them, in fact I expect to have most days of my life without them. Sure, when I think about it, they are in there, deep down and can be brought up sometimes. I am not "rid" of them. But I think you all deserve to live life without them on the surface all the time.
I know you have each worked very hard to try to find the right combo of meds and have worked hard in therapy, too. So, encouraging you to keep the search up is not meant to imply that you haven't been searching.
Last year, I never would have believed it possible to be free of that oppression. But here I am--not "rid" of the suicidal thoughts put away somewhere, quieted somehow, but I am free of the oppression of not being able to tolerate myself each waking moment I live.
If your pdoc is weary, it is time to consult a consultant for new ideas you and your pdoc can try.
Posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 13:09:57
In reply to Re: Suicidal Feelings, posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 12:56:18
I think sometimes people do express desparate feelings in a mix of other stuff and it can get lost in the shuffle and misunderstood.
I didn't agree with some of the hostile manner of Hannah's posts and feel she did provoke hostile responses sometimes. But I also felt people jumped on her too much too, and some even tried to corner her or goad her into more hostile exchanges after she said she wanted to participate peacefully. And then, when she expressed suicidal feelings, it was a shame that they were lost in the hostile exchange from her side and from others.
I would like people to be more straightforward when asking for help, but we have seen that that is hard for a lot of people. I wish everyone could reserve the impulse to react hostilely to a hostile message---and then either ignore it, or respond with a more measured response, or reread it and see what else was in it, not just reacting to the hostility.
I am still not happy about the sarcastic thread about group dynamics because yes, even though it applies to all bboard group dynamics, I think it still is not respectful of the sensitive nature of this board, and that it *appears*, even if that wasn't the intent, to make fun of someone who is in great distress, and who may still be reading this board even if she cannot post here. It also seems that at least one other person felt it might have been about her, and now she doesn't feel safe here.
I came here(there was only one board then, actually) a year and a half ago in tremendous distress and found incredible support that may have helped to save my life. I am invested in this place, as I believe many others are. I feel a lot of us who come here are in pain and that calls for sensitivity. I also love humor and wouldn't want it gone, but I feel we have to be mindful of the special nature of this board.
Posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 15:05:16
In reply to Re: Suicidal Feelings lost in the melee, posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 13:09:57
> >someone who is in great distress
Noa,
Maybe I missed the post to which you are referring (if you had Hannah in mind). I don't remember a post in which she stated she was in distress, or great distress, or suicidal, or desperate, or any post in which she accepted support when it was offered or went on to talk about how she was actually feeling. Not that any post had to be an eloquent masterpiece, but just a clear statement of her feeling suicidal and in despair or something.If there is such a post, please direct me to it.
If there is not such a post, then you are speculating about what she meant just as I am. It becomes a matter of individual interpretation, since we are not mind-readers and cannot know what she meant to convey.
Thanks,
Shar
Posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 16:13:38
In reply to Suicidal Feelings and Interpretations of Posts » Noa, posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 15:05:16
Shar,
I agree it was hard to really see the suicidal crisis because of the "noise" from the hostile words.
Here is what I was thinking about when I posted earlier:
In the very first post of the thread, entitled The Dark Night of the Unlumpy, Hannah wrote:
> Has anyone ever had any contact with the Samaritans? They are a suicide prevention group. It is possible to e-mail them through an anonomyzer so that they do not have your e-mail address. This is that address
>
> samaritans@anon.twwells.comand she signed it:
> Despaired but not departed
> Hannah(http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20001117/msgs/2943.html)
In another post, she asks,
>Where is my Samaritan?
a reference to not having heard backfrom the online suicide hotline.
She also says, in this post,
>Death to all unlumpy Hannahs!!!!!!!!!
(http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20001117/msgs/2978.html)
Then, she does express thanks to Angela for trying to support her:
>I appreciate your kindness. Thanks (np) »» Angela5
(http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20001117/msgs/2962.html)
In a subsequent post, she asks,
>Are you making fun of my suicidal crisis? It's really really hard to make a noose out of a whip. That dang Samaratin is taking his time replying too.
Sorry--I lost the address for that post and if I try to get it I will lose this window.
I recognize she made it hard to see that she was in a bad state--and suicidal-- but I think she was.
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