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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 47. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by CarolynAnn on October 11, 2000, at 19:18:34
I find myself wondering, now that I have been on anti-depressants for several years...and up and down as I needed to make changes...who I am. Is the real me the depressed (or dysthymic) person, or the more or less "normal" person on the meds? And how does my "spirit" fit into all this. Has anyone else had thoughts about this?
Posted by Racer on October 11, 2000, at 20:21:02
In reply to Who Am I?, posted by CarolynAnn on October 11, 2000, at 19:18:34
Great topic, since it's got to be almost universal.
Let's see, I know that I feel more like what I think of as me when I'm not depressed. These days, I can feel myself getting into that teenage angst thing when the depression starts: you know, that 'the cheerleaders don't like me, I have no normal friends, I can never wear the right clothes' sort of thing. (For real: I have a terrible memory of walking up to a group of my 'friends' in about eighth grade, and hearing them talking: "and she was wearing blue pants and a purple top! Can you believe it?" and one of them, who always acted like my great friend, asking: "dark purple or light purple?" Talking, of course, about me. Let's not get into a fashion debate, but that sort of thing sticks around, at least in emotional reactions.)
Babbling on like a brook...
OK, so the medicated me isn't really me. The Real Me doesn't need a nap every single day, and can sleep through the night. The RM doesn't have the same kind of 'electrically charged' feeling in the head. But the RM is not the depressed me, either. The depressed me looks around and sees no hope, no joy, just more grayness and pain. The RM sees some of the same things the DM sees, but sees hope shining from around the edges. For example, I'm not employed, the DM tells me that I'm not employable, that I'm economically worthless. The RM says, yeah, it's hard to convince someone to hire you, BUT you've got some skills that are worth three times what anyone would have to pay you. Does that make sense? Both see the same employability problems, wide range of skills, without much depth, but the RM sees the hope: I only need one job.
I'd say that the Real Me is the one who has been able to go off the meds, before the next depressive episode takes over. So, I get to be the RM for a few years at a time, then I have to take meds again.
Or, maybe, the REAL Real Me is the whole package: someone suffering from recurrent depression, who has to take meds for a few years, then gets to go off them, then back on. That's possible too.
(Another quick note, though: my depressions are a little different in recent years: it's not that I'm so worthless, more that I can't stand to struggle to make a living anymore. It's usually money problems that trigger my depression. Questions about whether I'll ever be able to support myself financially. These questions hit me in all states, but mostly can be at least partially controlled.)
Posted by shar on October 11, 2000, at 22:17:22
In reply to Me! Me!! ME!!! I've done that!, posted by Racer on October 11, 2000, at 20:21:02
That is a wonderful and thought-provoking question. While Racer has periods of "normalcy" between bouts of depression, mine has been a constant in my life since teen years (that's about 30 years worth).
I guess I look at it like, in the past 20 or 10 or 1 year(s) I have made progress in being able to have a little self-love (like taking care of myself physically, or at least not harming myself) and coming to terms with a lot of trauma and abuse I experienced and sort of giving it a place inside me, but not having it be the only place there is or the most important place. And letting myself have my feelings, and being sober. Things like that.
So, even though I may have been depressed and suicidal while accomplishing some things, I got on to a better path. And that I did not do without a healthy dose of divine intervention, prayer, meditation, etc.
The real me is the totality of the person writing this. Tonight, a little tired, but not hating the fact that tomorrow will come. Still with wounds to heal (some old, some new) and lots to learn. A survivor with a life of my own, things I'm grateful for, and a teeny flame of hope for the future.
Shar
Posted by Jena Lyn on October 11, 2000, at 22:32:20
In reply to Me! Me!! ME!!! I've done that!, posted by Racer on October 11, 2000, at 20:21:02
I think about this all the time ... it seems like who I was for years before I was on meds and in therapy, the girl I was was always SEARCHING for the real me ... and I think that only now am I starting to discover her. I think the real me is who Im BECOMING. Im learning to let go of all the insecurities that have held me back for SO long, and Im finding out that Im a pretty great person inside...and it took therapy, and my meds for me to find that out ...
Jena
Posted by noa on October 12, 2000, at 10:20:04
In reply to mirror mirror on the wall..., posted by Jena Lyn on October 11, 2000, at 22:32:20
Good questions.
I think this is related to the thread I and medlib and ksvt have been doing on deep (non-verbal) self-experiences.For me, I have had such divergent experiences of my self depending on my mood, etc. and they have been experienced so separately, like switching tv channels. When watching one, I cannot see the other at all. Over time, in therapy, I have worked toward bringing them together, as seeing the whole me, depressed and not depressed, as one me. The metaphor that helps me is Picture-in-picture technology, like an inset in the tv screen to see more than one channel at a time, or like having two windows open on the computer at the same time. It has been slow, painstaking work to get to this point. These two senses of my self are still different, but I can at least "view" them at the same time, sometimes, and see them both as really me.
But I had to accept the idea that both are part of the real me, because I wanted so badly for the non-depresssed me to be the Real Me. But because I wanted it so badly, I was perpeutating the pendulum experience of my self, I think. Like running away from Depressed Me, only to be totally devasted if it snuck up and caught me by surprise again at some later time.
I think that people who struggle with mood disorders, especially if early in life, do miss out on some important developmental time in terms of developing a stable sense of self. But even those who are hit with Depression later in life struggle with identity. William Styron talked about not recognizing himself, for instance.
Posted by Ted on October 12, 2000, at 12:57:24
In reply to Who Am I?, posted by CarolynAnn on October 11, 2000, at 19:18:34
I think of it as the "old me" versus the "new me". Face it, none of us are CNPs (that's Chronically Normal Persons), and I like it better that way. CNPs seem to lack the "spark" that makes us unique. Of course, when we are depressed, life is miserable, not only for us, but for everyone around us as well. I don't care if we have to take meds to stay out of the depression hole. The "new me" is *definitely* the best. Well, maybe the "hypomanic me" feels better, but I don't want to go there anymore. :-)
Ted
Posted by noa on October 12, 2000, at 16:11:20
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by Ted on October 12, 2000, at 12:57:24
I am glad you feel that way about yourself, but I myself can't say I like any of the effects of my depression in the way you are talking about. On the other hand, it has forced me to deal with it, to grow, etc. I still would give it up in a heartbeat if I could, and would opt for what you call CNP-ism for sure.
Posted by chdurie2 on October 12, 2000, at 21:21:50
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by noa on October 12, 2000, at 16:11:20
> I am glad you feel that way about yourself, but I myself can't say I like any of the effects of my depression in the way you are talking about. On the other hand, it has forced me to deal with it, to grow, etc. I still would give it up in a heartbeat if I could, and would opt for what you call CNP-ism for sure.
Ted-Noa took the words right out of my mouth. As I read your words, I was wistfully thinking how much I'd love to be a Chronically Normal Person (great expression!)Bring me Leave It to Beaver and Donna Reed anyday. Right now I'm watching ER, and our depressed, druggie Dr. Carter has just resentfully checked himself into a three-month rehab program, and we know that although there may be a couple of dramatic bumps along the way, we also know that he'll make it and be a new, improved Dr. Carter. I wish I could have that sense of certainty about climbing out of my depression/anxiety, ocd, add and borderline problems.
It's a wonderful dream. I doubt it will ever be real.
Caroline
Posted by hello on October 12, 2000, at 21:53:35
In reply to Who Am I?, posted by CarolynAnn on October 11, 2000, at 19:18:34
I can completely relate. I am just starting antidepressants- which is more stressful than I ever imagined. I've gone from one crap therapist who told me I have late 20's angst and that life isn't supposed to always be fun, to one that said I'm a high risk case because of my drug use. Now I'm filtering though my friends- I can't drink, do drugs, and the anti-d
s make me too tired for anything. I am not convinced it's worth it. I am on Celexa, which has side effects of anxiety and insomnia. That's what my problem was in the first place! Sorry, just had to let off some steam. It's good to see other people are evaluating how this works and not just accepting the personality changes
Posted by Cindy W on October 13, 2000, at 9:52:39
In reply to Re: mirror mirror on the wall..., posted by noa on October 12, 2000, at 10:20:04
> Good questions.
>
>
> I think this is related to the thread I and medlib and ksvt have been doing on deep (non-verbal) self-experiences.
>
> For me, I have had such divergent experiences of my self depending on my mood, etc. and they have been experienced so separately, like switching tv channels. When watching one, I cannot see the other at all. Over time, in therapy, I have worked toward bringing them together, as seeing the whole me, depressed and not depressed, as one me. The metaphor that helps me is Picture-in-picture technology, like an inset in the tv screen to see more than one channel at a time, or like having two windows open on the computer at the same time. It has been slow, painstaking work to get to this point. These two senses of my self are still different, but I can at least "view" them at the same time, sometimes, and see them both as really me.
>
> But I had to accept the idea that both are part of the real me, because I wanted so badly for the non-depresssed me to be the Real Me. But because I wanted it so badly, I was perpeutating the pendulum experience of my self, I think. Like running away from Depressed Me, only to be totally devasted if it snuck up and caught me by surprise again at some later time.
>
> I think that people who struggle with mood disorders, especially if early in life, do miss out on some important developmental time in terms of developing a stable sense of self. But even those who are hit with Depression later in life struggle with identity. William Styron talked about not recognizing himself, for instance.Noa, your posts are always so well-thought out and articulate! Agree that it's hard to have a good sense of self if the mood disorder starts early in life (it was that way for me).
Posted by Ted on October 13, 2000, at 14:27:18
In reply to Re: Who Am I? Ditto...I'd love CNP, posted by chdurie2 on October 12, 2000, at 21:21:50
Noa, Hello, Chdurie2, and all,
(This is gonna be a little long, so bear with me)
Please re-read my post. Depression is hell -- no mistaking that. But once treated successfully, don't you find yourself feeling different from CNPs? Remember, we have had experiences that CNPs will never have. Most of our experiences are terrible, but because of them, we can understand and relate to others much better. And our experiences often provide creativity that others lack.
When I came home from the hospital in May, 1999, after a week in psych ICU for bipolar disorder rapid cycling, I was talking with a neighbor. He is in his 50s and he asked me what depression was. What did it feel like, etc. He had never experienced depression in his life! Now, if one of us has a friend who is suffering a bout of depression, don't you think we would be more understanding than my CNP neighbor?
Another example: before I was diagnosed, I considered all drug addicts to be low-life failures that did not deserve help. My perspective is so different now, it is difficult for me to explain. I now understand that most addiction is an attempt to self-treat depression, bipolar disorder, ADD, etc. Addicts are sick people like all of us, and they need the same understanding and treatment. I now believe once treated, most addicts would avoid street drugs & excessive alcohol.
A little about me: I'm 39. I have known depression & bipolar-II disorder since I was 9. I didn't understand until I was about 13 what depression was. I would rapid cycle from long periods (months) of depression to short periods (days to weeks) of hypomania. When I was in college, I jokingly called it "manic-depression" not knowing how correct my self-diagnosis was! It wasn't until Jan 1999 that I sought help. This was after 3 major depressive crises, each lasting more than 2 years, and a long period of depression with no hypomania lasting 4-5 years. I couldn't handle the paxil I was given, so I stopped it. As my depression worsened, I sought a pdoc and was given zoloft. Over the next 6 days, I cycled from severe hypomania (or moderate real mania) to *severe* depression three times (each cycle was 48 hours). On the verge of suicide, my wife took me to the local hospital. My meds were adjusted (depakote added, then wellbutring also) and now I am on the road to feeling really rather well, though far from CNPish :-). My experience has taught me that there are *millions* of people with similar or worse conditions that need help and support. I do my part by making annual cash donations (with matching funds from my employer) to the hospital where I was treated to be directed to their PICU ward.
Take care all,
Ted
Posted by shar on October 13, 2000, at 21:20:36
In reply to Re: Who Am I? Ditto...I'd love CNP Noa and all, posted by Ted on October 13, 2000, at 14:27:18
Gosh, No CNP for me please. I have weirdnesses that are part of me aside from depression that I'd want to keep. I love being around people who are interesting, eclectic, curious, have in depth knowledge of trivial things, maybe eccentric, and whose decorative little boxes sitting around are never empty.
I want to keep my eccentricities, and other oddnesses, and wouldn't be Mrs. Beaver for the world and all its gold. Now, if I could be not depressed and/or suicidal most of the time, I'd really love that.
And, I have a hard time believing there is a "normal" -- if your neighbor, Ted, had never experienced depression (even situational), I'd think he was not very tuned in or self-aware psych wise. Not criticism, just observing that in MY EXPERIENCE many CNPs seem to sometimes lack a certain depth or breadth of feeling or awareness.
Oh--I was a housewife (as it was called in those days) for a few years, and the gin rummy was good but that was THE high point of the week.
Shar
Posted by coral on October 14, 2000, at 8:25:51
In reply to Pass on the CNP » Ted, posted by shar on October 13, 2000, at 21:20:36
What great thoughts, insights, and questions! I'll pass on the CNP, too. I say this on the healing side of my second "diagnosed" clinical depression. I don't believe I was truly depressed before these two episodes (6 years apart), but I certainly engaged in self-destructive behaviors. Admittedly, in darker moments, I've craved the life of the CNP who routinely goes to work every day at 9:00, home at 5:15, does grocery shopping on Thursdays, and has dental appointments every six months, right on schedule . . . but that desire passed rather quickly. In the darkest moments, all I wanted was peace. The only constant in my entire life of 49 years has been writing. Would I sacrifice that creative talent to be free of pain? No.
Of all the things about me that have varying degrees of truth, my writing is pure truth -- even though I primarily write fiction. For me, the struggle seems to be allowing myself to be who I really am, rather than who other people want me to be. I was intrigued by the "RM" me and "DM" me and confess that my core identity never separated that way. I am me, sometimes depressed, mostly not. In fact, I go to the opposite extreme and see depression as this beast who has crept into my house, intent on stealing my soul and see anxiety/panic attacks as vicious, little demons like a horde of hungry mosquitoes. Mosquitoes that pack the wallop of an F-14.
I'm being buffered right now w/meds (Zoloft, Librium, and Ambien) like a great, big inner tube in a roiling sea and am carefully monitoring how soon I can let the inner tube go and swim on my own. The driving force? My writing. I can't "get to that spot" to write while on these meds and that void is like breathing very thin oxygen, enough to stay alive, but not living. Who am I? Right now, a writer wearing mittens.
Posted by Rzip on October 14, 2000, at 12:25:15
In reply to mirror mirror on the wall..., posted by Jena Lyn on October 11, 2000, at 22:32:20
> I would like to find the "real me" too. And I am in therapy. But I am very manipulative, even when I do not intend to be. So, therapy is not exactly working right now. I noticed that a lot of you guys are on meds. Isn't it scary to be on meds? Considering it is not a natural product of your body. What if it does more harm than good. Afterall, these meds effects your brain, a very essential organ.
I am very much against taking meds. I am not sure why. My therapist thinks it is because I do not want to get better. She is probably half right.
Cordially,
RzipI think about this all the time ... it seems like who I was for years before I was on meds and in therapy, the girl I was was always SEARCHING for the real me ... and I think that only now am I starting to discover her. I think the real me is who Im BECOMING. Im learning to let go of all the insecurities that have held me back for SO long, and Im finding out that Im a pretty great person inside...and it took therapy, and my meds for me to find that out ...
> Jena
Posted by Ted on October 14, 2000, at 14:53:16
In reply to Pass on the CNP » Ted, posted by shar on October 13, 2000, at 21:20:36
Hi Shar,
>Gosh, No CNP for me please. I have weirdnesses
>that are part of me aside from depression that
>I'd want to keep.We sound like twins! My wife and I joke that no one else would want us because of our respective weirdnesses. :-)
>I love being around people who are interesting,
>eclectic, curious, have in depth knowledge of
>trivial things, maybe eccentric, and whose
>decorative little boxes sitting around are never
>empty.That's me alright! No one has *ever* called me normal. :-)
> And, I have a hard time believing there is
>a "normal" -- if your neighbor, Ted, had never
>experienced depression (even situational), I'd
>think he was not very tuned in or self-aware
>psych wise.I agree 100%. But he, his wife, and their kids are closer to Ward & June Cleaver & Wally & The Beaver than you can imagine.
> Oh--I was a housewife
"domestic logistician"
>and the gin rummy was good but that was THE
>high point of the week.Uggh. I would hang out in the library or something. Anything! :-)
Take care,
Ted
Posted by shar on October 14, 2000, at 19:19:43
In reply to Re: mirror mirror on the wall... » Jena Lyn, posted by Rzip on October 14, 2000, at 12:25:15
Rzip,
About the meds, we all have to make our own decisions. On Psychobabble you will find people who share your view in abundance, people who are willing to try almost anything to get out of hell, and people who feel they've tried everything and will give meds a chance, and people who only want to go the natural route (vitamins, herbs, supplements, etc.), and people who are just beginning to think about trying meds.It is a personal decision, and mine is the one about trying to get out of hell, the deep dark black pit of paralyzing breathtaking and heart shattering pain. I figure my brain without meds wasn't doing so well, and after 25 years or so decided to try meds--reluctantly.
I am not in hell while on meds, but I would like to feel even better. And I will continue to give meds a chance, based on my own research, information I gain from others, and meetings with my p-doc.
But, again, it is a personal decision based on each individuals different personal reasons. For me it is scary, but not as scary as hell.
Shar
Posted by cs on October 15, 2000, at 11:29:57
In reply to Who Am I?, posted by CarolynAnn on October 11, 2000, at 19:18:34
Carol ANne, When I had my first severe depession 5 years ago, the depressed person was not me! Once I started feeling the effects of the anti-depressants the real me came back. When in the depression I felt like "I had died", and it was like mourning your own death. I believe that anti-depressants don't change you but help you be yourself. CS
Posted by ksvt on October 15, 2000, at 15:36:21
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by cs on October 15, 2000, at 11:29:57
> Carol ANne, When I had my first severe depession 5 years ago, the depressed person was not me! Once I started feeling the effects of the anti-depressants the real me came back. When in the depression I felt like "I had died", and it was like mourning your own death. I believe that anti-depressants don't change you but help you be yourself. CS
My therapist frequently tries to get me to compare myself pre-depression and post-depression. I can remember times when I was significantly more non-functioning than I am now, but I can't remember what it felt like to be depression free. I think this is because regardless of whether or not I was clinically depressed, I was certainly dealing with the same set of insecurities and self esteem issues that I am now. I'm not sure what a CNP is. I fantasize about being a different person from the one I am now, but even my fantasy of a depression free life involves a woman who struggles with mood swings. Maybe I've just become more realistic (and hopefully eventually less perfectionist). How do you reconcile what we go through with the fact that many people probably think many of us are CNPs? I know better, but I work very hard to mask my depressive periods, and I think I do a decent job at it. My life as a depressed person is a very internalized one. I'd love to hear from others for whom this is also true. ksvt
Posted by CarolynAnn on October 15, 2000, at 18:23:58
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by ksvt on October 15, 2000, at 15:36:21
> Wow...I hadn't checked the board for a few days, and was I ever surprised to see so many responses to my topic! Thank you all! I still haven't figured out who I am...and maybe that's what life is...a task of discovering who you are! But I know that my very first symptom of SRI "poop-out" is a personality change. Lots of irritability and difficulty with decisions. I know that before I ever took antidepressants I struggled with a lot of insecurity, shyness, lack of self-esteem. But now I only seem to need to deal with those issues when depressed. For me, taking antidepressants (when I found one that worked) was like taking a magical self-esteem pill. When I am not depressed I am self confident, outgoing and much more capable of caring for others. Definitely a nicer person. Nicer to myself as well as nicer to those around me. So I guess what I am wondering is, is the "essence" of me the "good" me or the "bad" me? I have spent quite a few years in therapy...it never helped much. Only the medication has made a difference. Now my p-doc doesn't even try therapy...as long as the meds are working, there seems to be no need for it...and when they're not working I just can't deal with it. Thanks for listening!
Posted by Ted on October 15, 2000, at 20:33:31
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by cs on October 15, 2000, at 11:29:57
CS,
That's great. What about me, who has known only depression for most of my life? Only now I am feeling the effects of depression that is neither continuous nor severe.
Ted
> Carol ANne, When I had my first severe depession 5 years ago, the depressed person was not me! Once I started feeling the effects of the anti-depressants the real me came back. When in the depression I felt like "I had died", and it was like mourning your own death. I believe that anti-depressants don't change you but help you be yourself. CS
Posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 8:26:20
In reply to Re: Pass on the CNP, posted by coral on October 14, 2000, at 8:25:51
>I was intrigued by the "RM" me and "DM" me and confess that my core identity never separated that way. I am me, sometimes depressed, mostly not. In fact, I go to the opposite extreme and see depression as this beast who has crept into my house, intent on stealing my soul...
Being able to see the depression as an external threat is a good thing, something I work at all the time. Sometimes I can, sometimes, the depression is in me, and I cannot see it as outside. Sometimes it is a mixture--it is a beast but I am the beast.
I am curious, you mentioned having two episodes, 6 years apart, and I wonder how old you were at the first episode, and whether you think age of onset might be related to this phenomenon of depression-self blurring.
Posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 8:29:03
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by cs on October 15, 2000, at 11:29:57
>I believe that anti-depressants don't change you but help you be yourself. CS
Again, I wonder if because your first episode was recent, you already had a solid sense of self, so it is clearer to you that DM is not you at all.
Posted by CarolAnn on October 16, 2000, at 9:29:48
In reply to Re: Who Am I?, posted by CarolynAnn on October 15, 2000, at 18:23:58
Hey CarolynAnn,
Not only are our names similar, we also seem to have the same type of depression experience. I haven't found an anti-depressant that really works, but my doctor gave me Adderall (a stimulant) for my extreme fatigue, and when I first started taking it, I felt like a 'normal' person for the first time in my life. It was like a 'fog' lifted off my brain, and for the first time in my life, I could 'see' who I was. Unfortunatly, after the first couple months, the Adderall lost most of it's effectiveness, now it mainly just gives me a little energy boost. I think I'm going to try Adrafinil, which I will have to order from an internet company(it's not available in the US.).
Well, I wish you good luck in finding a good antidepressant, I've been thru most of them, and haven't found the right one yet. Take Care, CarolAnn
Posted by coral on October 16, 2000, at 15:56:16
In reply to Re: Pass on the CNP » coral, posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 8:26:20
Dear Noa,
The first episode was when I was 41 and the second one (now) is happening at 49. With the first depressive episode, I lost 3 1/2 years before getting appropriate intervention (11 docs in all) and it took me a year to heal. This episode hit last month. With the first one, I felt as if I'd been knocked down the rabbit hole with Alice. With this one, I intellectually know what's happening - it's just the emotional side that's a mess, but I am healing. I'm not sure what you meant about age playing a part -- if I just deal emotionally, the black beast wins. I have to keep thinking and processing what's coming through this depression.
Posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 17:43:39
In reply to Re: Pass on the CNP to Noa, posted by coral on October 16, 2000, at 15:56:16
Sounds like you were hit hard, Coral.
What I meant was that for people who start having depressive episodes earlier in life, maybe the Me-not Me question is more of an issue than it would be for people, like you, who first experience depression later on, well after their sense of self is established and solid. Maybe that is why you are able to see the depression as outside your self, although it is an effort, as you say. Just a hypothesis.
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