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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 11, 2009, at 23:08:23
I mean, I know it is coming. I do it over and over and over again. Just after this one that I'm approaching. This is the one I like - even though it is the hardest and most intense. This one gets me the connection and being seen and all of that. This is the one that's building this week. But then I lose it all in the phase after next and have to start all over. And that's the phase that hurts and makes me feel crazy and basically like a fool to ever love or trust or whatever. I just don't want to do that one. I want to go straight from this one (feeling love, feeling attachment, feeling connection, feeling cared for, feeling seen, feeling heard, and yes - the aching, the attraction) straight through to the feeling more comfortable and grounded AND seen and connected (the phase I just came out of).
Please? Can I just do that? How can I make that be my plan?
Posted by chumbawumba on May 11, 2009, at 23:20:36
In reply to Can I just skip the next phase? A Ramble., posted by FindingMyDesire on May 11, 2009, at 23:08:23
Are we talking about a love relationship here or rapid cycling bipolar disorder?
Posted by Phillipa on May 11, 2009, at 23:30:13
In reply to Re: Can I just skip the next phase? A Ramble., posted by chumbawumba on May 11, 2009, at 23:20:36
I'm guessing therapist????? Love Phillipa
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 11, 2009, at 23:45:11
In reply to Can I just skip the next phase? A Ramble., posted by FindingMyDesire on May 11, 2009, at 23:08:23
That's funny. I can be so totally in my own head that I forget some of the critical information!
What I'm describing here is my utterly intense and painful (and romantic) attachment to my T. At this point in my client-therapist relationship with her I have gone through these cycles so many times that I can feel them coming. I suppose that's a good sign that something is shifting.
But I still seem to go through it no matter what I understand about it intellectually. I just watch myself being taken over by the fear and pain, almost like I'm looking in from the outside.
Posted by chumbawumba on May 12, 2009, at 0:08:36
In reply to Re: Can I just skip the next phase? A Ramble., posted by FindingMyDesire on May 11, 2009, at 23:45:11
Oh OK
Well That's good in many ways. They say the establishment of transference is critical in the healing process.
Not to mention it's just good that you're able to fall in love. Consider that a blessing. Many cannot.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on May 12, 2009, at 8:49:08
In reply to Re: Can I just skip the next phase? A Ramble., posted by chumbawumba on May 12, 2009, at 0:08:36
Been in love with my t for 5 years. Very painful. Unfortunately he has led me on.....could write a book about what has happened between us.
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by workinprogress on May 12, 2009, at 12:47:01
In reply to Can I just skip the next phase? A Ramble., posted by FindingMyDesire on May 11, 2009, at 23:08:23
Hey again FMD-
I responded to this yesterday, but somehow it didn't get posted. There are too many confirms I think. Anyway.. I'll try again.
What I mostly said was, 1) I think it's great that you're recognizing patterns... that's huge in figuring out what's going on and how to do it differently. Do you know what triggers the phase you're trying to avoid? Can you explain/name the feelings that exist prior to it or within it? Do you think you can talk to your therapist about all of this? About recognizing the pattern and wanting to do it differently this time, but needing her help? It seems she might be able to help you talk it through and "pull it apart" a little. That's always helped me the most... "bringing it in"- even if it's scary.
That would be my suggestion for making it be your plan. You're halfway there in just understanding the pattern though!
Keep us posted and hang in there. At the very least know that you're ok, your feelings (all of them) are ok, and that this is probably part of your healing process. Learning to trust someone is HARD- and it takes TIME. I made a trust equation complete with symbols and put a little poster up in my bathroom (I really wanted to just TRUST my T and she kept saying "it takes time, you can't rush it"). It goes like this: "my equation for the big fear of abandonment"- time/time/time/time + love + empathy + consistency = the big T, TRUST.
So, for me, moving past fear in my relationship with my T involved all those things, but I finally got there. You can too!
((((((FMD)))))))
- WIP
> I mean, I know it is coming. I do it over and over and over again. Just after this one that I'm approaching. This is the one I like - even though it is the hardest and most intense. This one gets me the connection and being seen and all of that. This is the one that's building this week. But then I lose it all in the phase after next and have to start all over. And that's the phase that hurts and makes me feel crazy and basically like a fool to ever love or trust or whatever. I just don't want to do that one. I want to go straight from this one (feeling love, feeling attachment, feeling connection, feeling cared for, feeling seen, feeling heard, and yes - the aching, the attraction) straight through to the feeling more comfortable and grounded AND seen and connected (the phase I just came out of).
>
> Please? Can I just do that? How can I make that be my plan?
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 12, 2009, at 23:35:51
In reply to Re: Can I just skip the next phase? A Ramble., posted by chumbawumba on May 12, 2009, at 0:08:36
chumbawumba,
I love your name by the way. Is there a story there?Right, right - healing. It's a good reminder about the falling in love part. I just wish it didn't hurt.
Tonight is another night like the rest this week. A week is way, way too long. I have been listening to her voice mail messages over and over - pretty much on loop.
FMD
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 13, 2009, at 0:00:15
In reply to Re: Can I just skip the next phase? A Ramble. » FindingMyDesire, posted by workinprogress on May 12, 2009, at 12:47:01
WIP,
Wow! I just love your equation! May I borrow it?>"my equation for the big fear of abandonment"- time/time/time/time + love + empathy + consistency = the big T, TRUST.
>That is so awesome. Your post helped motivate me a bit to actively talk to her about this. I mean, I do talk to her about this and I would probably bring it up in some way - or she would. But somehow reading your post a few times has made me think about being more direct about it. I run into challenges sometimes with this. It can go something like this:
T (somewhat tentatively gauging my heightened fear and anxiety): "How are you? How was your week?"
In my head: "Oh my god! I missed you so much. This felt like a super long week and it was really hard and I started to feel disconnected and scared and then that made me want to push you away. And I got mad. But just seeing you now makes me wish we could hug and I could tell you how much I need you and I wish that you would start the session by telling me how much you care and that it's OK for me to have such big feelings and that you won't hurt me or leave me because of them and that I'm likable and I have value and I mean something to you. I want you to tell me I matter."
What I say: (earnestly trying to be as honest as I can be): "I'm OK. It was a hard week. It was hard to stay connected. I had a lot of feelings. I'm feeling anxious right now."
T (with a caring and patient look on her face): "Can you say a little more about what was hard or what might be causing the anxiety right now?"
In my head (and while rolling my eyes: "I'm such an idiot. I'm in the same stupid place I'm always in. Why can't I just be normal? Why am I so attached to her? I must make her crazy going over this again and again. She looks tired. I wonder if she's pregnant again. Why can't she just comfort me? Why am I so aroused right now? I wish I didn't want her so much."
What I say: "I don't know. Somehow I just feel disconnected again."
Yuck.
I just wish I could somehow tell her what I'm thinking. Seems more likely to help. I don't know. It's a losing battle for her. Anything she says (or doesn't say) in response to me is going to feel like a rejection and/or criticism.
I was just thinking today that she doesn't DO anything between our sessions. *I* do it all. Meaning that I leave a session feeling connected and seen and cared for and then I go about my life and come back a week later. Nothing has actually changed in terms of my real relationship with her. All that has changed is my relationship to her in my head. That's ALL ME. I make all of that up. I dissect her, determine what I have done wrong to lose her care (love), I rip myself apart for loving her - all on my own. And then I come back to her all disconnected.
I totally suck to be in a relationship with. Clearly.
Ooops, this post turned into a downer. Sorry!
What it was meant to say really, WIP, is that I'm going to try to do SOMETHING different. And I have two more days to figure it out.
Thanks again for writing. I hope you had seen my other (delayed) response to your other post. I appreciate you.
FMD
Posted by workinprogress on May 13, 2009, at 0:17:49
In reply to Re: Can I just skip the next phase? A Ramble. » workinprogress, posted by FindingMyDesire on May 13, 2009, at 0:00:15
FMD-
I don't have a ton of time, but you can absolutely borrow it. I wish I could send you the actual document with pictures, but there's no way here. Anyway... borrow away.
And if I might, you might consider sharing this post with her.... she probably can't give you everything you want, but she might be able to get closer if she understands your needs. I found that when I couldn't say how I felt I just read my journals. I don't do it anymore, but it was helpful.
Lastly... one little note about the arousal. It may be that you're attracted to her and want to date her (you've spoken of that before). BUT, consider for a moment the possibility that maybe you're attracted to her not as someone to date- but as a mother figure. A lot of what you say you want from her seems like a mother figure. She'll of course never be a partner or a mother, but she'll always be a better pseudo mother than a pseudo partner. Anyway, I'm a queer woman and have a woman T and I sometimes get aroused, but I DO NOT want to date her, because she's my "mom". The arousal comes from intense connection and being noticed and her telling me that yes, "I matter".
Anyway, good luck. I'll be thinking of you!
xo
WIP
> WIP,
> Wow! I just love your equation! May I borrow it?
>
> >"my equation for the big fear of abandonment"- time/time/time/time + love + empathy + consistency = the big T, TRUST.
> >
>
> That is so awesome. Your post helped motivate me a bit to actively talk to her about this. I mean, I do talk to her about this and I would probably bring it up in some way - or she would. But somehow reading your post a few times has made me think about being more direct about it. I run into challenges sometimes with this. It can go something like this:
>
> T (somewhat tentatively gauging my heightened fear and anxiety): "How are you? How was your week?"
>
> In my head: "Oh my god! I missed you so much. This felt like a super long week and it was really hard and I started to feel disconnected and scared and then that made me want to push you away. And I got mad. But just seeing you now makes me wish we could hug and I could tell you how much I need you and I wish that you would start the session by telling me how much you care and that it's OK for me to have such big feelings and that you won't hurt me or leave me because of them and that I'm likable and I have value and I mean something to you. I want you to tell me I matter."
>
> What I say: (earnestly trying to be as honest as I can be): "I'm OK. It was a hard week. It was hard to stay connected. I had a lot of feelings. I'm feeling anxious right now."
>
> T (with a caring and patient look on her face): "Can you say a little more about what was hard or what might be causing the anxiety right now?"
>
> In my head (and while rolling my eyes: "I'm such an idiot. I'm in the same stupid place I'm always in. Why can't I just be normal? Why am I so attached to her? I must make her crazy going over this again and again. She looks tired. I wonder if she's pregnant again. Why can't she just comfort me? Why am I so aroused right now? I wish I didn't want her so much."
>
> What I say: "I don't know. Somehow I just feel disconnected again."
>
> Yuck.
>
> I just wish I could somehow tell her what I'm thinking. Seems more likely to help. I don't know. It's a losing battle for her. Anything she says (or doesn't say) in response to me is going to feel like a rejection and/or criticism.
>
> I was just thinking today that she doesn't DO anything between our sessions. *I* do it all. Meaning that I leave a session feeling connected and seen and cared for and then I go about my life and come back a week later. Nothing has actually changed in terms of my real relationship with her. All that has changed is my relationship to her in my head. That's ALL ME. I make all of that up. I dissect her, determine what I have done wrong to lose her care (love), I rip myself apart for loving her - all on my own. And then I come back to her all disconnected.
>
> I totally suck to be in a relationship with. Clearly.
>
> Ooops, this post turned into a downer. Sorry!
>
> What it was meant to say really, WIP, is that I'm going to try to do SOMETHING different. And I have two more days to figure it out.
>
> Thanks again for writing. I hope you had seen my other (delayed) response to your other post. I appreciate you.
>
> FMD
>
>
>
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 13, 2009, at 0:37:58
In reply to Re: Can I just skip the next phase? A Ramble. » FindingMyDesire, posted by workinprogress on May 13, 2009, at 0:17:49
WIP -
Thanks for the loan! ;-)I sometimes share my journal with her, but it's been awhile. I think you might be right that this one would help. I'll think about that! And I get the part about her not giving me everything I want, which in reality I probably wouldn't want some things - but it's the part about being OK feeling the want. Right? I think.
I actually don't so much want to date her. I do feel in love with her and very attracted to her. But I know that it's in the context of this type of relationship. In reality if she even tried to shake my hand I'd probably freak out. LOL
I'm dealing with a lot of issues around my gender and sexuality. I don't feel seen by my partner - or the world really. But I think one thing I do is project the perfect lover scenarios onto her (because I can since I have no real information) and then have these fantasies as a way to imagine what it would be like to be truly seen. So, while all of that part is happening I'm not feeling so childlike around her and she is seeming like a "lover" to me. Her so much as acknowledging something I am trying to explain that is so deeply connected to my sense of self gets me all worked up. Plus, it does intensify things that she is my age and totally "my type." I mean, I suppose this is all happening as it should and may not have been so powerful had she not fit this description. *more sighing*
However, in re-reading my post I totally see a lot more of that mother connection than I had seen before. Sometimes I can't see that type of relation with her cause it's impossible to mix it up with the arousal feelings. Plus, my own mother is not such a "mother" type to begin with - which is part of my collection of issues around lack of mothering. phew.This is really the topic I'm most interested in discussing with others (the attraction/gender/sexuality piece). *sigh* Thanks for letting me know you are a safe person to mention this stuff to.
FindingMyDesire
Posted by antigua3 on May 13, 2009, at 12:00:57
In reply to Can I just skip the next phase? A Ramble., posted by FindingMyDesire on May 11, 2009, at 23:08:23
I think you got some excellent advice so all I'm going to say is:
I want to skip it too! If you figure out a magical way to do this, please let me know.
For me, I can see where I'm headed and I know how painful it's going to be--being denied the fulfillment of needs that were never met--so why can't I just skip over all this? I don't need to have it ground into my soul that I can't have what I missed, that I need to find ways of my own to fill that need, or to acknowledge that it's not going to happen and move on.
I'm with you, though. I want to skip to the end! Why pay for more pain?
antigua
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 14, 2009, at 18:34:14
In reply to Can I just skip the next phase? A Ramble., posted by FindingMyDesire on May 11, 2009, at 23:08:23
I thought I could really make a difference this time, but I can't. I was completely consumed with bad feelings last night and so have slipped away again. I don't usually let you all know I'm leaving, but here I go. I have really enjoyed being engaged this time. I'm sure I'll bounce back. Thanks so much for your endless support.
Posted by workinprogress on May 14, 2009, at 21:04:13
In reply to I'm not going to make it - disconnecting again, posted by FindingMyDesire on May 14, 2009, at 18:34:14
((((FMD))))
Can you put words to your feelings? Can you put into words what is going on for you? Not for us, but for you. I hope you're ok. Take care of yourself, be kind to yourself, and please try to share as much as you can with your T.
You're in my thoughts!
xo
WIP
> I thought I could really make a difference this time, but I can't. I was completely consumed with bad feelings last night and so have slipped away again. I don't usually let you all know I'm leaving, but here I go. I have really enjoyed being engaged this time. I'm sure I'll bounce back. Thanks so much for your endless support.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 18, 2009, at 16:46:21
In reply to Re: I'm not going to make it - disconnecting again » FindingMyDesire, posted by workinprogress on May 14, 2009, at 21:04:13
I can't start a new thread cause I just can't take up that kind of space right now yet I'm so desperate for connection. Here's how desperate I am: Saturday afternoon (just after therapy) I found myself on the sidewalk in the city where I live, crying. I was a little drunk too. (It was a destructive move, something I rarely do and since I'm a total lightweight it can be bad when I do it.) I started calling crisis lines. I do that cause they all annoy me so much that it pulls me out of my extra, shall I say, bad thoughts. I called a couple of friends too whose cell numbers I had. I guess I was coherent enough and a good enough lier that neither one of them thought I was in real trouble. However, I don't remember the conversations or messages I left. I called Kaiser too. They totally suck. Picture this. I'm totally crying uncontrollably. I call the psychiatric crisis line. They ask me for my Kaiser number. I say I don't want to give them my number I just need to talk to someone. They say, "Oh. I"m sorry. I really can't help you then." I hang up. It's good actually. Anger helps pull me out of it. I call information - still crying hysterically. I ask for a hotline. (I should just put these in my cell phone.) They give me a 1-800 number and connect me, but not after telling me to have a nice day. Turns out the number is in another city. A sweet sounding woman answers and asks where I'm calling from. Remember, I'm totally crying. When I tell her what city she says that she is sorry but can't help cause they don't serve my area and did I have a pen to write a number down for my area. Here's me. I am lying on the GROUND, on the dirty sidewalk. I'm drunk. People are walking by me just ignoring me cause we have so many sad homeless people that everyone is just used to seeing someone in this state. Of course because I'm hating her now I tell her yes, I have a pen and yes I'm OK or whatever I said to make sure she felt fine going home that night and getting sleep.
I called my therapist too. A few times. She doesn't check messages that often right after ending her day. Makes sense I guess. I didn't hear back from her for five hours or so. I'm not mad at her, but this doesn't work when I'm in this kind of crisis. I even called our couple's therapist. She actually answered. I have her cell number. I don't think I'm supposed to have it but I used it. She answered. She was just leaving the airport and couldn't talk. I have no idea what I said to her but based on the message she left me The Next Morning, I'm thinking she didn't know how bad a shape I was in. No one but anyone reading this knows I was on the street. Except, of course, those walking past me. Hopefully no one recognized me. Ugh. I'm stuck with unbearable shame today. And wondering how much I can share with my therapist when I see her. I think I need to tell her all of it. But then what?
Meanwhile, I told her on Saturday that I thought I needed to quit therapy cause it's too painful. She resisted a little, but not as much as I wanted in order to feel loved of course. She said I should at least come a few more times to work through the ending. Geez. No wonder I lost my mind, right? Am I that good of a lier? That's the part that scares me. And could she have please wanted to save me enough to give me a little more... something?
Anyway, this isn't the first time this has happened for me and here I am today at work acting like a normal person. Although, I'm having trouble focusing and I still have all the same issues I had yesterday and last month. So, am I bipolar or what? I mean look at me two days ago is like describing a movie or something. I'm freaking myself out.
Posted by antigua3 on May 19, 2009, at 7:42:20
In reply to Re: I'm not going to make it - (possible trigger), posted by FindingMyDesire on May 18, 2009, at 16:46:21
What a terrible experience for you. It seems like everyone let you down and you're left suffering in unimaginable ways. I'm happy you made it through, though, despite the price you've paid.
Try not to feel shame, although that of course is a totally natural reaction.
Sometimes I think we have to scream at the top of our lungs to be heard. Or at least that's what it feels like. You seemed to show enough control that nobody really heard you and I'm sorry for that.
I get the whole thing about wanting to leave therapy because it's too painful and then having your T (pdoc in my case) just seemingly going along with it when I wanted him to care enough to tell me "No, don't do it!"
I recently had the same experience. I made a decision to quit therapy because it was more painful than it seemed it had ever been. I left my pdoc a message saying so, knowing full well that he wouldn't try to make me stay. I understand now that it wasn't that he didn't care, but that he was respecting my decision. I did say I would come back for another appt (I had canceled my next one) to discuss my meds situation.
True to form, he left me a message to schedule my next appointment where we could talk about "next steps". I totally freaked out. I wanted him to stop me and here he was letting me go when I was at my most vulnerable. In his message he had put off my appt for another two weeks and I just lost it. Not only was he letting me quit therapy, but he was making me wait a really long time to see him again because he was going to be away. (He hadn't told me he would be gone and that was extremely upsetting as well. Abandonment issues rearing their ugly head.)
So I gathered up my courage and called him to tell him I couldn't wait that long. He was very kind and scheduled an earlier appt. I told him I knew he would let me go because he was respecting my decision. (I have wanted to quit for a while and the most I could get out of him was that he knew that if I walked out that door, I would be walking out a healthier person. He was absolutely right, but I wanted more, for him to care enough to tell me not to go.) He met that need, telling me it was really important, great in fact, that I had agreed to come back to talk about the meds, and that, in fact, he didn't think I was ready to leave. I was floored. I don't usually get what I want from him, but he seems to find a way now to meet my needs.
So, go back. Sometimes I think Ts use that "come back for a few sessions to wind things up" to get us back in there so we can talk about why we want to leave. For me, I sometimes think it's just a way they react in order to get us to come back and face the fears we have about therapy and really talk about why we want to leave. It often leads to some tremendous growth in talking about and releasing these feelings. I've discovered that while the urge to leave is definitely real, it needs to be explored. Just walking out the door, unless it's really not a good match for us with ours Ts, can be devastating.
These are just my thoughts, nobody else's.
So go back and tell her everything. Make her understand the depth of your pain and work together to find out what's triggering you so much.
Again, I'm sorry for what you're going through. It does feel weird though, doesn't it, when after an episode such as this we can just walk back into our lives and act as if nothing had happened. Nobody who knows me from the outside would ever recognize the depths of my pain because I'm so good at hiding it. Except in therapy. My T and pdoc get it and I was shocked to discover this, that my veil doesn't hide me in those rooms.
Please take care,
antigua
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 19, 2009, at 13:13:33
In reply to Re: I'm not going to make it - (possible trigger), posted by antigua3 on May 19, 2009, at 7:42:20
Thanks so much, antigua. I was hoping my little hidden post would attract some attention. It's funny how I watch myself play out the same behavior everywhere in my life.
Thanks, too, for sharing your storing. It is really so helpful to feel understood.
Thanks also for not shaming me about what I did and for being so out of control. I'm just trying to gear up for talking to her about it on Thursday.
And for telling me to go back. Our couple's therapist told me last night that if she could she would want to make me continue to go because she thinks (through watching me and hearing what I say about my relationship with my T) that the process is really good and is worth continuing and really significant - even if very, very difficult. It also helped when she told me that it would be good to find a way with my T to modulate things a bit, but she wasn't sure this was really possible. Somehow that made me "acceptable" and not too much. Cause I always feel like I'm too much and it's all my fault.
Anyway, thanks again. I really, really appreciate your time.
FMD
Posted by workinprogress on May 20, 2009, at 2:22:53
In reply to Re: I'm not going to make it - (possible trigger) » antigua3, posted by FindingMyDesire on May 19, 2009, at 13:13:33
FMD-
I'm on an out of town assignment and have been traveling/swamped. But, I wanted to say I saw your post today and I hear you and I feel for you. It sounds like Sat. was awful. And I agree with Antigua's assessment, your T probably really does want to talk it through and see if leaving really is the right thing. It doesn't sound like you REALLY want to leave, but just that it feels REALLY hard and REALLY hard to manage. So, maybe talk about that? And the more honest the better. About all the stuff we've talked about. My guess is she'll understand. And if she doesn't, well then maybe you should leave? But... I bet she will understand and empathize and maybe even come up with some ways the two of you can work together to make things a little bit easier.
I wish you luck. But again, you're not alone in your feelings, or certainly in feeling that sometimes the process itself is VERY VERY painful.
((((((FMD))))))
> Thanks so much, antigua. I was hoping my little hidden post would attract some attention. It's funny how I watch myself play out the same behavior everywhere in my life.
>
> Thanks, too, for sharing your storing. It is really so helpful to feel understood.
>
> Thanks also for not shaming me about what I did and for being so out of control. I'm just trying to gear up for talking to her about it on Thursday.
>
> And for telling me to go back. Our couple's therapist told me last night that if she could she would want to make me continue to go because she thinks (through watching me and hearing what I say about my relationship with my T) that the process is really good and is worth continuing and really significant - even if very, very difficult. It also helped when she told me that it would be good to find a way with my T to modulate things a bit, but she wasn't sure this was really possible. Somehow that made me "acceptable" and not too much. Cause I always feel like I'm too much and it's all my fault.
>
> Anyway, thanks again. I really, really appreciate your time.
>
> FMD
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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