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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Trotter on November 11, 2008, at 14:10:36
I am a 50yo male suffering from long term depression. I have been having mindfulness-based talk therapy (45yo male therapist) for several years which has helped me manage the depression.
A few months ago I started seeing a psychodynamic therapist (40yo female). I was inspired by Thomas Lewis' book "A General Theory of Love" to explore the possible underlying cause of my depression, my avoidant attachment style, and the associated lack of close relationships in my life.
Yesterday I decided to stop the psychodynamic therapy because I did not feel it was providing anything my mindfulness therapist wasn't. To this point we had only talked about things going on in my life. Nothing really emotional had happened. Anyway, as the session approached it started to feel like I was about to break off with a girlfriend. Not because I viewed her this way, I am not attracted to her, but the feelings prior to the impending 'break-up' were the same. I am sure I would not have felt this way with a man.
Anyway we discussed this in session. She said I would benefit from developing a close attachment through years of therapy with her. I got the impression that the closer the attachment and dependency on her the more I would get out of it. The fact that she is a woman would help address the rejection I experienced from my mother when I was a baby, and the resultant coping/defence strategy I adopted (self-reliance). This would help me have more fulfilling relationships outside therapy. In theory, I can see the potential for this.
Part of me is resisting this. I sense that for this to really work for me I need to let go and leave myself open to fall in love with this woman, with full knowledge that it is just therapy and the relationship has no future outside therapy. However, in addition to the confronting issues of trust, love and loss of control, it just seems 'wrong' and 'unnatural' to do this.
I can see the potential, but it seems like a huge committment to take on trust, when I don't know if it will help me anyway. Another part of me says that this might be a real turning point for me if I am willing to take it. I agreed to another session, before which I really need to resolve which way I want to go. Quit or allow myself to fall in love (not lust!) with my therapist. I know this may seem a bizarre attitude, but I see any concept of middle ground as 'holding back' and would restrict the potential for real gains. The more I 'surrender' my control and encourage myself to love, perhaps even from a submissive perspective, the more I will get out of it. This is really scary territory for me.
Any thoughts on this?
Trotter
Posted by sassyfrancesca on November 11, 2008, at 14:40:21
In reply to To quit or fall in love with my therapist, posted by Trotter on November 11, 2008, at 14:10:36
All I can tell you is that I fell in love with my therapist 5 years ago.
It is excruciatingly painful.
How about allowing yourself to fall in love with a woman who is available?
"The closer the attachment and dependency" will make it more difficult for you to leave when you feel you need to. Dependency is one of those bug-a-boos in therapy, which happens but is difficult to handle.
It sounds to me as if you have already figured out why you are avoidant and lack a close reationship. It started with your mother.
If you "surrender" yourself to your therapist....feelings being what they are....what if you do fall in love or have such intense transference, it becomes unbearable?
I belong to a site: A_Most_Heartbreaking_Love (Yahoo group) and it is for people dealing with painful attachment and love feelings for their therapists.
This sounds dangerous, and in the end, you would be the one to be hurt and confused.....in this arena, it is never "just" therapy. There are and would be many, many conflicting feelings and emotions.
Sassy
Posted by Dinah on November 11, 2008, at 14:56:48
In reply to To quit or fall in love with my therapist, posted by Trotter on November 11, 2008, at 14:10:36
Hmmm...
I need to think about everything you said a bit more. Something about the way she phrased things niggles at bit at me, though I'm not sure why.
But I did want to comment on this.
"Quit or allow myself to fall in love (not lust!) with my therapist. I know this may seem a bizarre attitude, but I see any concept of middle ground as 'holding back' and would restrict the potential for real gains. The more I 'surrender' my control and encourage myself to love, perhaps even from a submissive perspective, the more I will get out of it. This is really scary territory for me."
It doesn't seem a bizarre attitude to me at all. I can understand how you might feel that way.
There is a middle ground between holding back and falling in love. It's *loving*. No falling involved. No surrender of control. No submission. No expectations of anything further. I suppose it could, but doesn't need to, involve dependence. It definitely involves attachment, trust, a few leaps of faith, the risk of loss, the risk of abandonment. It's an opening of oneself, so it's scary, yes. But it's not the start of something else. It's an end in itself.
I don't know if it's something you can set out to do. I don't know if it's a side effect of therapy. No matter whether she's an analyst or not, it seems odd to me to set out to develop a close attachment over a period of years. It seems more reasonable to me to commit to try to open yourself to another person, for the benefits that brings. A close attachment might result, if the fit is right, and the therapist is open. It might last years, but if it does, it will be a natural outgrowth of the relationship.
Would you feel more comfortable to think of going in and opening yourself to this analyst, who happens to be a woman?
The fact that it felt like breaking up with her might mean that you have some attachment to her already. But it might just be the conditioned response of a male about to choose to stop seeing a female. Evolution hard wires us for some things, and that would be a sort of instance of transference maybe? Feelings from other situations bringing themselves into this situation event though they aren't a real part of this relationship? That's kind of how it works, isn't it? Finding yourself feeling these things, but with a therapist not a "woman". Talking about what it feels like, what it reminds you of, what fears it brings up, etc. Then by working through that with the analyst, you'll be more free to enter into relationships with real "women" without the baggage of your automatic responses that might not really apply.
If you have perfectly satisfactory relationships with women, or largely satisfactory relationships with women, or you are doing ok in general, it might not be worth the time or money.
But if not, maybe you've just experienced your first jolt of what this kind of therapy can be. If you allow yourself to carry over other feelings you feel toward other people to her, you can experience it more often. (Assuming she's skilled enough to notice and deal with the transference properly).
Hmmm... Looks like I commented on the rest anyway. :)
Posted by JouezMoi on November 11, 2008, at 16:52:38
In reply to Re: To quit or fall in love with my therapist, posted by Dinah on November 11, 2008, at 14:56:48
Trotter,
I think you should continue. If you fall for her, let yourself. Let yourself feel all the feelings that you do ... motivated, stimulated, alive, frustrated, pained, loved and even rejected ... the whole spectrum. Let yourself feel what attachment is and let yourself realise that the pain of the eventual detachment is nothing to fear either. It is part of life and part of death which is life.
Go brave. I had issues similar to you and therapy really helped me. My bio-chemical issues will always be there, but the psychological ones were addressed in a way that I never imagined nor appreciated until long after 'termination' .. which by the way never really happens. Bonds remain, relationships are .. and they are in their own form, whatever they are. With all the knowledge I had on the process, .. I fell (albeit fighting) hook, line and sinker... the 'transference' thing (no one knows my story ... I don't need to reveal it). I have no regrets ... none.
Posted by seldomseen on November 11, 2008, at 16:54:13
In reply to To quit or fall in love with my therapist, posted by Trotter on November 11, 2008, at 14:10:36
As usual, I agree with Dinah and see the absolute wisdom in her words. I completely agree, there doesn't have to be a fall, just a growing attachment, trust and relationship.
If you commit yourself to therapy with this woman I myself predict that you will actually go through a range of emotions, some exceedingly uncomfortable, some really really nice.
To me, it almost sounds as though when you say love, you mean trust. Meaning you trust her to handle, care for, and treat you all at the same time.
It happens and is not all bad by any stretch.
I'm glad you posted here and can so articulately express how you feel and what your concerns are.
Keep us posted, and remember, there really isn't a wrong decision here. It's all about your comfort level and what you think you need/want the most out of therapy.
Seldom.
Posted by Trotter on November 11, 2008, at 19:26:23
In reply to To quit or fall in love with my therapist, posted by Trotter on November 11, 2008, at 14:10:36
Thanks so much for your thoughts. They pretty much reflected my concerns, both in the positive and negative.
I am worried about forming a close attachment and then having to deal with the eventual breakup. The fact that this is a big issue for some people is of concern. In my favor though, is that I am not one to get overly attached to people, unlike, say, someone who suffers from borderline personality disorder. I can be hurt by break-ups, but I am probably in a lower risk group. In fact I have always been the one to break off a romantic relationship. Maybe being on the receiving end might be a good thing.
On the other hand, I don't really see that I have major relationship issues, other than not bonding as closely as others. My relationships are not characterized by pathological transference (as far as I know). At least my therapist has not brought any to my attention. I am just very independent. It's not like I don't trust others, I just prefer to be self-sufficient. That is not to say I am not open, as you can probably tell from my posts.
I am really still in two minds, and have to make a decision before I see her tomorrow. Not having done long term therapy like this before it is hard to know if it is worthwhile. It's a big committment. My gut feeling is that I don't really need it, but maybe I do ...
Trotter
Posted by muffled on November 11, 2008, at 22:17:37
In reply to To quit or fall in love with my therapist, posted by Trotter on November 11, 2008, at 14:10:36
Hi Trotter, this is Muffled.
I dunno what to say, I am terrified of attachment so I not much use, my instincts say R U N! But my instincts are kinda messed. LOL!
Alls I wanted to say was, did your male T have any comment on this, or do you no longer see him?
Best wishes.
Muffled
Posted by Trotter on November 12, 2008, at 16:18:03
In reply to Re: To quit or fall in love with my therapist » Trotter, posted by muffled on November 11, 2008, at 22:17:37
Dr Thomas Lewis in "A General Theory of Love" says that building dependence on one's therapist is a desirable thing. He says, "A parent who rejects a child's desire to depend raises a fragile person." I think that is the case with me. Maybe to 'fix' things I need to spend years in a dependent and loving relationship with my therapist, to strengthen those neural connections, so they become part of who I am, so that I can connect better with people, and have more fulfilling relationships.
Perhaps I will hang in there for a few more sessions and perhaps guide things in this direction and see what transpires.
Trotter
Posted by JouezMoi on November 12, 2008, at 17:02:10
In reply to Re: To quit or fall in love with my therapist, posted by Trotter on November 12, 2008, at 16:18:03
Trotter, I like your reference and reasoning. It is a courageous step. Be brave. And, fight the urge to run. With me the urge to run was strong, as in most attachment-avoidant "independent" persons ... but I found that once I gave in and stopped running, I discovered wonderful things about myself and my ability to have relationships. I am still a work-in-progress, and there are times when I regress. At those times, I reach out to my ex-T and something about that process or action, gets me back on track. Eventually I am now finding ways to reach out to others beside my ex-T. It may be difficult at times, but I think it is worth it. Bon chance.
Posted by rskontos on November 12, 2008, at 17:43:25
In reply to Re: To quit or fall in love with my therapist, posted by Trotter on November 12, 2008, at 16:18:03
..Dr Thomas Lewis in "A General Theory of Love" says that building dependence on one's therapist is a desirable thing. He says, "A parent who rejects a child's desire to depend raises a fragile person." I think that is the case with me. Maybe to 'fix' things I need to spend years in a dependent and loving relationship with my therapist, to strengthen those neural connections, so they become part of who I am, so that I can connect better with people, and have more fulfilling relationships...
Trotter,I think you answered it yourself. Or at least the words of Dr. Lewis did. I know from my experience that I came from a childhood that produced fragile inside while appearing strong outside. And I don't trust nor do I form attachments. As my sister and I always say, leave a back door to leave from.
And I too think therapy is often sometimes to re-evaluate its necessity. I am still in it though so I am trying to correct the mess my parents made.
Not sure the mess is able to be corrected, but Dr. S thinks so. So we will see, and as they say, "Time will tell".
I think you should go for it.
Good luck and keep us posted.
rsk
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