![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on October 20, 2008, at 13:03:45
In reply to Re: My T story, posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 11:56:09
I can understand why you would think in your case you were culpable as well. For one thing, when you're in a relationship "in my case" is always a factor. I know it is with me. Moreover, it is a fine ethical line. How much are clients responsible?
But that's where the power comes in. Where the power lies, there lies the responsibility. Many clients in long term therapy are going to be seductive in one way or another. We try to engage our therapists, if not into a love relationship, then at least into a loving relationship. I am guilty of the same thing. But to the extent I succeed, it is because my therapist allows me to succeed. Trying to become special to a therapist is almost the job of a long term relationbased therapy client. Getting them to care, getting them to bend the boundaries. We *should* feel free to do that, to at least a limited extent.
Because of the power differential, it's the therapist's responsibility to tell us where the boundaries are and to hold us to it. Even if you were a full fledged therapist, you would still be the client in your own therapy.
I don't want to belabor the point, because I realize you're just trying to come to terms with everything.
I guess it just concerned me that you take so much responsibility for it. When you have clients yourself, I'll bet you'd say that no matter how attractive and appealing a client is, and no matter how much they are attracted to you, it's *your* responsibility, not theirs, to determine the boundaries.
I'll say no more.
Posted by Kath on October 20, 2008, at 13:27:47
In reply to Re: My T story » Kath, posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 12:16:13
Posted by stellabystarlight on October 20, 2008, at 16:20:39
In reply to My T story, posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 8:23:32
Hi Morgan,
"...the pain of a therapy office..." I'm so sorry.
I understand what you're going through. I haven't had an affair with a T, but I've been in a similar situation. It's very painful - a no win situation. It hurts to stay and it hurts to go. I think you said it's only been 2 weeks, so it must be a struggle to keep away from him. I know it's especially hard when it's secretive and you can't share it with friends for support. Take one day at a time, and be kind to yourself...nurture you. If you're like me, you'll go through many stages before you're "over" him. Stages of protectecting him, blaming yourself, blaming him, loving him, hating him, etc., and finally forgiving and moving on.
And your T... No, he was not honorable, and I can go on about his failures, etc. But I think it's good that you're looking at your part in this sad affair for the sake of understanding yourself better, and to avoid repeating another painful mistake. I'm assuming he's married, since didn't mention going over to his place, and you had to go out of town to be with him.
I just wanted to let you know that you have my support. Take care and keep posting.
Stellabystarlight
Posted by lucie lu on October 20, 2008, at 16:33:26
In reply to My T story, posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 8:23:32
Morgan,
Thanks for telling us about what must have been, in the words of Dickens, the best of times and the worst of times. I admire your courage in taking the course that you did and also being able to share it with us. As a community, we are committed to supporting one another and helping each others journeys to health. Only sometimes it's hard to know what that journey is and how best to support it.
I think what is being expressed in this thread, besides recognition and empathy, is concern and a protectiveness for you. There have been some babblers who have been badly hurt by their Ts, and we are all well aware of the potential hazards imposed by the power differential. So I think there is a natural tendency here to express caution about such relationships while recognizing the courage that it might take to get out of (or avoid) one. That sort of natural response does not rule out, hopefully, a willingness to get to know you and your unique history (and future) more fully. And if that includes being in the relationship with this T, then so be it. I guess one view is that we might usefully provide a sounding board for this particular issue and perhaps, at times, a devil's advocate, which may not be available to you otherwise (except your best friend, who it sounds like you trust). But if you don't feel that is useful and just want and need support for the feelings and emotional hardships you are going through, I would hope we can support you in those ways too.
Glad you decided to post :)
Best,
Lucie
Posted by Nadezda on October 20, 2008, at 16:54:44
In reply to Re: My T story » Kath, posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 12:16:13
Hi. I may have this wrong, but the impression I was left with was that you're waiting two years in order to be with your ex-T.
This concerns me greatly, as it seriously may prolong and deepen the damage, not only the "therapy" you had with him, but possibly deprive you of several years of your life, which will be on hold. Plus, there is no way of knowing if at the end of two years, there's really any future for you and your ex-T.
You may believe that you'll be with this man after two years. But you're at a time of life when you can meet many people and form many different types of bonds, and gain a great deal of experience. I feel very strongly that losing out on this because of the questionable commitment of someone who's already violated your trust, as a therapist (and who, on top of that, is the department chair in your department at school--a further level of power that required his utmost care in his relationship with you), is a very real risk.
Even if he is available after two years, if you were to have more experiences, you yourself might realize a lot more about him and the relationship, if you were to go on with your life-- things which, if you wait for him, you won't have a chance to learn.
This seems to me to be a very compromising situation, which could possibly do you a lot of damage, beyond having a badly miscarried therapy.
I know this is difficult, but we all need to take the reality of transference a good deal more seriously than I think we seem to. We also need to take much more seriously the fact that an hour with someone is quite different from a whole run of days and the daily existence with someone. I sometimes feel that we pay lipservice to transference-- But I think it's hard to see around the experience we have in the room, to consider quite seriously that the person we see as infinitely kind, attentive, and thoughtful is not so wonderful to his wife. I hope this is understood as supportive and not critical of anyone. I just think it's quite understandable that we do-- and it underlines why the responsibility is much more on our T to take the role of the one who oversees the boundaries of the relationship, and who safeguards our interests in that sense. Yes, we have some responsibility too-- but not one that is comparable to that of our T.
Nadezda
Posted by JouezMoi on October 20, 2008, at 17:00:48
In reply to Re: My T story » Morgan79, posted by lucie lu on October 20, 2008, at 16:33:26
Wow!.. The reality is that T's are human too. They struggle with the same emotions as the rest of us.
Every now and again they would meet a client with whom the chemistry feels so good. Under these circumstances they are supposed to seek consultation on how to best handle the situation.
This, however, does not change feelings which can be as strong for the therapist as it is for the client. Looking at both sides of the table, Ts seem to be just as vulnerable as clients, but under the rules, they are not supposed to be. They share so much with so many people. It is a hell of a difficult job, I think.
And .. your T is single on top of that, which makes him even more vulnerable given the level of intimacy that is the essence of the therapy relationship. This is risky for both of you. Is it really real?
I know of a case of a faculty starting to date a graduate student of his. It was kept hidden, though so many people knew. He could have lost a tenure opportunity because of it, and was advised to break it off. He was very discreet until she was no longer his student. They dated and were married in two years.
It is not impossible. I see the power relationship in this case, as similar in some ways.
Humans will never be perfect, and I am not saying that any T who does this needs excusing, I just think that it is possible for the two people in the room (client and T) to be subject to the same vulnerabilities of the intimacy, and the risks are great on both sides.
Posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 17:25:44
In reply to Thanks for sharing... » Morgan79, posted by stellabystarlight on October 20, 2008, at 16:20:39
No, he is not married. We are both single. I have been to his home, and he has been to mine. I miss him making me breakfast on Sunday's. :(
He knows he messed up, and he has told me so many times how this has been on of the biggest mistakes of his life. He has said, he would do it over only if it didn't hurt me.
~Morgan
Posted by stellabystarlight on October 20, 2008, at 17:48:12
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing... » stellabystarlight, posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 17:25:44
> No, he is not married. We are both single. I have been to his home, and he has been to mine. I miss him making me breakfast on Sunday's. :(
> He knows he messed up, and he has told me so many times how this has been on of the biggest mistakes of his life. He has said, he would do it over only if it didn't hurt me.
My flu meds must be affecting me... I read your post again and I misunderstood a few things, sorry.So he's single, and you've been spending time together in the "outside world" making breakfast on Sundays...wow, must have been lovely. I can't imagine what sort of mental gymnastics you had to do to keep your various relationships straight. Well, I can actually - It's confusing and it hurts, a lot. I would like to echo Lucie's post, especially about if you ending up going back to him...so be it. We'll support you anyway. I know you miss him like heck. Stay strong. You can tell yourself maybe in 2 years, but keep living your life. You might just meet an incredible man who can love you without so much pain. Hugs to you.
Stellabystarlight
Posted by muffled on October 20, 2008, at 18:08:05
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing... » stellabystarlight, posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 17:25:44
Morgan, I too admire your bravery.
This is gonna be very very hard.
Do you have other support persons in your life? You will need them.
If he is that important to you, then I think its that important that you stick to it and make your boundaries VER VERY clear.
Are you going to phone or email? What will you do if you meet in public?
Your behaviour will be different, people will notice. What will you say?
Hard to imagine noone else noticed that there was a relationship btwn you two?!
So you terminated with him as soon as you two realized there was 'more' going on? or did you continue?
Has HE talked to another T about this? This is not so uncommon and to be in the open, he should seek consultation.
Do YOU have a T? Or was he still filling in a T role for you? You should be able to talk about this with someone IRL.
If neither of you can talk about this to anyone, then WHY NOT? what are you hiding?
I am not asking for answers here, just these are things to think about IMHO.
So, hope things settle and whatever will be in the end, will be.
Take care.
Muffled
Posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 19:23:33
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing... » Morgan79, posted by stellabystarlight on October 20, 2008, at 17:48:12
I need to talk to him, and we have to talk about who we are to one one another. He has sent me five text messages today, he wants to move away from all this, and get a job somewhere else.
What was I thinking when we were playing house? I should have known he would lose everything, but that wouldn't matter to me. But he would resent me in the end. He says he wouldn't, but I know he would. It would be natural, he spent years in getting advanced degrees so I can take it all away?
I don't know what to think. My mind is not clear, and I don't trust anyone anymore. I don't even want to be a t anymore. My goal in life was to help children who are "at risk." I can't even help myself, so how can I help children?
~Morgan
Posted by JayMac on October 20, 2008, at 19:26:54
In reply to My T story, posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 8:23:32
Hi Morgan,
First of all, I don't think I've welcomed you yet. A warm welcome to you!! =) Thank you for joining Babble!With regard to your T story, I don't know that I can provide any more insight than that's already been provided. I would just like to reiterate that you must have a whole lot of courage and integrity for getting out! It shows that you have hope for a healthy relationship, one that allows for open honesty for the whold world to see.
We are all more than happy to offer support!
Thank you for sharing your story and a part of yourself =)
Hugs!
JayMac
Posted by stellabystarlight on October 20, 2008, at 19:53:35
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing... » stellabystarlight, posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 19:23:33
> I need to talk to him, and we have to talk about who we are to one one another. He has sent me five text messages today, he wants to move away from all this, and get a job somewhere else.
>
> What was I thinking when we were playing house? I should have known he would lose everything, but that wouldn't matter to me. But he would resent me in the end. He says he wouldn't, but I know he would. It would be natural, he spent years in getting advanced degrees so I can take it all away?
>
> I don't know what to think. My mind is not clear, and I don't trust anyone anymore. I don't even want to be a t anymore. My goal in life was to help children who are "at risk." I can't even help myself, so how can I help children?
>
> ~MorganYou're being too hard on yourself. Love...especially the romantic love is not rational...transference or real (it feels the same.) So he wants to start a new life with you? I've heard the same from a man. It was wonderful to hear, but also terrifying at the same time. I have to ask, is there any chance that what you're really fearing is that you don't really love him? Maybe that's why you fear his "resentment in the end?" Just have to ask?
It is confusing. You've been in and are in an intense confusing relationship. You should at least give yourself a break for trying to do something about it, Morgan. You're going to be a better helper to children for having experienced these painful, difficult situations. You're just trying to sort it out...
Stellabystarlight
Posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 20:44:26
In reply to Re: My T story » Morgan79, posted by JayMac on October 20, 2008, at 19:26:54
Jaymac,
Thank you for the welcome and support! I am sorry I am almost at a lost for words right now. I don't know what I expect everyone to say. I just wish I could wake up and be in his arms.
~Morgan
Posted by happyflower on October 20, 2008, at 21:20:20
In reply to My T story, posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 8:23:32
Hi Morgan,
I wanted to also welcome you to Babble. It is hard to comment on this without bring my own stuff to the table about my formal T (long story). Can you see another T to help you with this all? You don't have to disclose who he is if you don't want to.
It takes huge strength to walk away from who you love and trust, and to do it for him, shows how much you really care.
Good luck with everything, keep going to school and do what is the best.
As far as you being a therapist soon(so am I), doesn't negate HIS responsibility to keep the boundaries.
I know of more than one T in training who has a relationship with their T which isn't ethical and it is by no means the client fault even if you are a T in training. You can't help what you feel. Neither can he, but he has the responsibility to keep himself ethical in the relationship.
Does any of your friends or family know about this? Because it would only take one of those people to turn him in, even without your consent. I hope things work out for you because I have seen so many people including me that gets hurt so deeply, it is worse than any of the abuse I received as a child. Take care of yourself.
Posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 21:42:26
In reply to Re: My T story, posted by happyflower on October 20, 2008, at 21:20:20
Happyflower,
I have thought about seeing a therapist, but not sure if I am ready. I just don't want another therapist telling me how unethical he was, and I should turn him in. I will not. Been thinking about traveling to another town for counseling, but I am not ready at this point. I had two female t's in the past, and I tend to issues with females because of issues with my mother and grandmother, and another male therapist wouldn't be a good idea.
His best friend knows and his wife. They are both t's and talked to both of us. THAT WAS SO AWKWARD. She has emailed me and thinks we should all meet. GROUP THERAPY??? The relationship was great, but could have uncomfortable and weird moments.
I don't have much family that I speak with on a regular basis, and my bestfriend knows. She is seven hours away, but she has been calling me everyday. We are like sisters, her mom took me in when I was 17. She asked me to transfer schools, but I can't do that at this point in my life. I am still uncertain and have to sort things out.~Morgan
Posted by seldomseen on October 21, 2008, at 6:08:04
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing... » stellabystarlight, posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 19:23:33
First I would like to add my welcome to babble. I've certainly received a lot of support here. It's also a great place to vent! I just have a couple of thoughts about your situation.
"What was I thinking when we were playing house? I should have known he would lose everything, but that wouldn't matter to me. But he would resent me in the end. He says he wouldn't, but I know he would. It would be natural, he spent years in getting advanced degrees so I can take it all away?"
You are not taking anything away from this man at all. If there are ramifications from his actions YOU did not cause it. He willingly and with advanced knowledge of the potential consequences of his actions entered into a relationship with you. That was HIS choice.
"I don't know what to think. My mind is not clear, and I don't trust anyone anymore. I don't even want to be a t anymore. My goal in life was to help children who are "at risk." I can't even help myself, so how can I help children?"
I understand your crisis of confidence here, but would like to point out that you can and already are protecting yourself. You got out of the situation to give yourself time to think and regroup. You're helping yourself a lot.
It's easy to blame yourself for this entire mess, but, to be totally honest, he is much more culpable than you. Way way more.
I think the primary thing that you need to be focused on now is healing your broken heart.
Take care
Seldom
Posted by rskontos on October 21, 2008, at 10:49:51
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing..., posted by seldomseen on October 21, 2008, at 6:08:04
I just want to welcome you to Babble. I read your story yesterday. As a mother of a daughter probably your age or close to it I tried to think about what I would say to her. I could not come of with much else except to say that if he is 12 years older and he is the professional no matter what level of training you are in the midst of getting you are still in training he is not. So therefore he is as Seldom said more to blame. You take responsibility which is admirable but don't be too hard on yourself.
Now whether or not this love would last, do we ever know that? No we don't.
I think you are wise to extract yourself from this situation for now and possible for always.
I think if you did not think something was wrong about the situation in the first place you would not have ever left. So you did what you felt was right for you. That is never a bad thing. To have space to think about what you need to do is always a good thing.
Venting is always good too.
We, at least, I want you to know judgment is not part of Babble. We just want you to be safe. As i would with my daughter I don't want you or any Babblers to get hurt. Therapy can open that door or possibility. I am glad you protected yourself.
Now I do know you are hurting because you miss him. But take the time to understand where it is coming from and let him have some space to understand himself too.Again, glad you are here and thanks for sharing.
rsk
Posted by Morgan79 on October 21, 2008, at 17:11:38
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing..., posted by seldomseen on October 21, 2008, at 6:08:04
seldomseen,
Thank you for the warm welcome. I am still trying to sort things out. I am still in shock about the last two years of my life. He gave me the confidence to go back to school and to train to be a t, and now I am not sure of anything anymore.
~Morgan
Posted by Morgan79 on October 21, 2008, at 17:18:21
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing...Morgan, posted by rskontos on October 21, 2008, at 10:49:51
rsk,
Thanks for welcoming me and your insight. It is hard because I never really had a mother that I could go to. I have trouble trusting females, so that is why I went to a male t. My mother and grandmother both hurt me, and my ex t helped me heal with that. Now everything seems like it wasn't real, and he was waiting for me to become attracted to him. Does that make any sense? I was at a bad point and I feel like he helped me to become so strong and made me depend so much on him.
I just feel like everything is hazy and unclear.
~Morgan
Posted by JouezMoi on October 21, 2008, at 18:05:18
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing...Morgan, posted by Morgan79 on October 21, 2008, at 17:18:21
Morgan, what you have described is normal. Almost thinking that he may have manipulated the attraction (expecting it, waiting for it), wondering if it was real, everything feeling hazy ... even choosing to train to be a t. It sounds like classic 'erotic' transference... "in love with T". At the same time, that happens in normal everyday life too, with attraction, relationshipps and bonding... there is a degree of transference in that even. Many of us on this board have been through that, except you and T acted on it. This should have brought some sort of reality to the situation. You seem to still have a sound sense of groundedness in reality, and based on this, you will be fine. Give yourself time, you are doing what feels right for you right now, and if that means distance between the two of you, that is your choice for you. Don't be hard on yourself.
Posted by JoniS on October 22, 2008, at 0:31:57
In reply to My T story, posted by Morgan79 on October 20, 2008, at 8:23:32
Morgan
Welcome to Babble. My heart hurts for you. I hope that you will take some of the advice of Babblers - dont be hard on yourself, dont blame yourself. Someone said the experience will make you a better t (in response to you doubting your abilities) I am sure that's true. You are learning some hard life lessons. Even with your schooling, the responsibility to keep the boundary lies totally with your t. I know you love him, but dont take blame for him.I am sadly in love with my t but I Have no relationship with him other than client - t. I fantasize about haveing a relationship AFTER 2 years, but it's just my pathetic fantasy.
You are strong to break away and take care of yourself. I wish you well, whatever the outcome. I cant imagine the pain, grief, .... that you are going through. I hope you will lean on good friends and maybe eventually when you're ready get a new (maybe female) t to help you through this.
((((Morgan))))Joni
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 22, 2008, at 7:18:58
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing...Morgan, posted by Morgan79 on October 21, 2008, at 17:18:21
(((Morgan))): If you educate yourself about t/client relationships, etc....it will clear some things up:
In Session by Debra Lott
Sex in the Forbidden Zone by Peter Rutter (it is about professionals who betray clients
No matter what the behavior or provacation from the client, the t is totally responsible for what happens in the therapy room. They are supposed to have boundaries; it can get very confusing when the boundaries shift. There is also a lot of information on the internet regarding client/t relationships, ethics, etc., etc...
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by Morgan79 on October 22, 2008, at 10:40:46
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing...Morgan » Morgan79, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 22, 2008, at 7:18:58
Sassy,
Thanks for the hugs and support. I would like to clear up a few things...
"If you educate yourself about t/client relationships, etc....it will clear some things up:"
I have read several texts about the dynamic of t/client relationship and In Session. Each t/client dyad is unique and I know what we had was true love and not transference. He did not remind me of anyone I ever encountered. Yes, he was older, but he was not the first older man I ever had a relationship with."There is also a lot of information on the internet regarding client/t relationships, ethics, etc., etc..."
I know intellectually he broke every board of ethics in the field; however, my heart still loves him more than words could ever describe.Thanks for your support.
~Morgan
Posted by rskontos on October 22, 2008, at 12:04:19
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing...Morgan, posted by Morgan79 on October 21, 2008, at 17:18:21
Morgan,
I understand the lack of a mother and grandmother. my mother was well she was sick and cruel and should not have children. I have been a better mother I hope. Well I know I have. Anyway, I know that unreal feeling. I don't think he was waiting for that. i hope and let's give him the benefit of the doubt that it just happened. But it was up to him as the therapist to set the boundaries and leave them there.
You see, you were the vulnerable one in this situation. He was not. He was the professional one who no matter his feelings should not acted upon them because no matter it was not good for you. The eventual outcome is shaky at best and can be damaging at worse.
I mean I think what the true question is:
No matter the situation, married or unmarried, can anything ever come out of a relationship between therapist and therapee that doesn't harm the patient that came to the therapist for healing and safety from something already damaging in their background when the therapist allows a cross of boundaries he/she knows should not ethnically be crossed? Now maybe, and only maybe, if therapy is done and over with termination behind something might and only then might be possible. But in the end can anything beneficial come from a crossing of the boundaries such as this?
I don't think so but I don't know for sure. I am no expert this is only my opinion.
I don't want to hurt you. I just want you to understand that he should have made you stronger that is a goal of therapy and it is effect of therapy a person will depend on their therapist but it is the therapist's job to help steer them at some good point to stand on their own in a safe manner. With good safe boundaries. Your T just crossed them and before you were strong enough to deal with this in a manner that would not leave you unharmed. This is I think why boundaries are very important early on.
Anyway, I am sorry you are hurt. You deserve peace. I am sorry you miss him but of course you do. As you said you depend on him. He became an important figure in your life. I hope you get some comfort from us here at B abble.
I hope you seek another therapist to help you from the hazy unclear position he put you in. I am not sure you can do this alone.
Best wishes, and be good to yourself during this time. Don't be too hard on yourself. If you are like most of us here, it is too easy to be hard on yourself versus anyone else.
rsk
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 23, 2008, at 8:17:38
In reply to Re: Thanks for sharing...Morgan, posted by Morgan79 on October 22, 2008, at 10:40:46
> Sassy,
>
> Thanks for the hugs and support. You are most welcome! I would like to clear up a few things...
>
> "If you educate yourself about t/client relationships, etc....it will clear some things up:"
> I have read several texts about the dynamic of t/client relationship and In Session. Each t/client dyad is unique and I know what we had was true love and not transference. He did not remind me of anyone I ever encountered.But you (we) cannot know what is in our subconscious; he may be the parent you never had,
Yes, he was older, but he was not the first older man I ever had a relationship with.
Looking for a father figure, perhaps (I never knew my father)...it's only human and natural to look for what we never had....in order to re-frame and fix the past.
>
> "There is also a lot of information on the internet regarding client/t relationships, ethics, etc., etc..."
> I know intellectually he broke every board of ethics in the field; however, my heart still loves him more than words could ever describe.
>
> Thanks for your support.I hope it works out, but first I would do a lot of therapy with another t....there is so much of the subconscious going on here.....wants, needs, vuleranability, etc....
i still recommend "Sex in the Forbidden Zone" by Peter Rutter; it should be read by therapists and clients, alike.....
Hugs, Sassy
> ~Morgan
>
This is the end of the thread.
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