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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 0:40:26
In reply to Re: Never mind, posted by DAisym on October 12, 2008, at 23:33:28
I guess that's ok this time. But there will come a time when it won't be ok to leave him. When he might not be able to clean up after himself.
I always considered myself so fortunate that my father's last days didn't involve vomiting. He had been sick off and on in the months before hand. I was able to be there with him and talk to him and take care of him. I couldn't have done that if he were throwing up, I don't think.
My good fortune can't last. Some day my husband will need me, and I'd like to be better enough to be there for him.
I'd like my son not to be afraid of throwing up for fear of scaring his mom. I'd like him not to think of me running away when my husband was sick.
But I went to a website about emetophobia, and read up on gradual exposure, and realized that I just can't do it.
Maybe today isn't the right day to consider it. When my arousal level is so high. I suppose I could consider it later. It takes years, though, and doesn't necessarily work completely.
Freezing might be useful if I were about to be eaten by a mountain lion. But it's not so pleasant otherwise. I guess... that's what the end is. I mean, in an anxiety attack, you worry you're going to die, but you don't. The end of an anxiety attack, if the stimulus isn't removed, is the freeze. I need to look into that more.
Thanks, Daisy.
Posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 6:23:39
In reply to Re: So scared » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 0:31:29
I'm catastrophizing about my husband of course. Things will work out. I just don't think very well when I'm upset.
Posted by JayJ on October 13, 2008, at 7:55:39
In reply to So scared, posted by Dinah on October 12, 2008, at 20:09:57
This is obviously very upsetting to you, and I can see why. That level of guilt feelings with your loved ones is really, really painful. I'm not sure I have any major words of wisdom to help take away your suffering, but I was wondering if there is something your T can help you with here. Obviously this is a long-standing issue for you and maybe you've already done all you can do along this line, but one thing stands out in your initial post, and that is your brother. The frequency, specifics and duration of the stomach "difficulties" you describe must have been miserable to endure, but is there more behind that? Is the focus on this issue with him symbolic of more? If there were more there, perhaps healing that could ease the intensity and focus of your concerns on this particular subject.Maybe I'm completely off target, but I wanted to try to come up with something to offer you as help, besides my full sympathy. If nothing else perhaps recognizing that this is just one small facet of your life with your family and, although it looms large now, in the order of things it is minor compared with all of the other good things you bring to the relationships with your husband and son.
I hope you feel better soon.
JayJ
Posted by DAisym on October 13, 2008, at 12:24:25
In reply to Re: So scared, posted by JayJ on October 13, 2008, at 7:55:39
Dinah,
I believe that in extraordinary circumstances, we step up and do things we never thought we could. Or the Good Lord takes care of things and provides someone who is there at just the right moment. So worrying about "some day" isn't necessary. You really don't know.
If someone would have told me that as an adult I would pick another person's nose, change really horrid diapers, scoop up cat poop every day or watch a burn be debreeded on a child - my child - I would have said, "No way. Not me. I can't do it." But as a parent we do what we must, often without thinking and we collapse later. You just have to believe that. Stop beating yourself up. I'm always amazed at how things work out and what we live through.
Posted by muffled on October 13, 2008, at 12:59:41
In reply to Re: Never mind » DAisym, posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 0:40:26
http://www.emofree.com:80/tutorial/tutorgseven.htm?WT.seg_1=E_SupportEmailMessage_2_14
Yup, me, still beating the EFT horse!
Never done it myself.
Just the fact that my educated and respected T seems to think its a possible good thing causes me to wonder.
If it could step it down just a little for you.
I found this clip interesting in that it CAN be hard to find out what is behind the fears, ot that there may be multiple things that need to be adressed.OK, I'll shut up now.
Just wished you could feel a littl e better.
M
Posted by Phillipa on October 13, 2008, at 13:09:20
In reply to Re: Never mind, posted by muffled on October 13, 2008, at 12:59:41
First thing that pops into my pea brain is fear of worse diseases than a virus and the fear of getting older. That's me of course. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 19:54:21
In reply to Re: Never mind, posted by Phillipa on October 13, 2008, at 13:09:20
It's not really about being afraid of an illness.
http://www.emetophobia.org/emetophobia%20fear%20of%20vomiting.asp
Not all of this applies to me, as I'm not really afraid of vomiting myself.
Posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 19:57:54
In reply to Re: Never mind, posted by muffled on October 13, 2008, at 12:59:41
Please don't shut up! I love to hear from you.
I believe that EFT and EMDR work for some people. But they don't work for me.
If you think it might help you, you ought to give it a try.
Posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 20:06:29
In reply to Re: So scared, posted by DAisym on October 13, 2008, at 12:24:25
My therapist asked me if it was the disgusting part that got to me. I don't think it can be because in my course of dog owning, I've been involved with way worse stuff. The grossest thing I ever did involved draining a cyst.
While we were discussing it today, I pointed out that short term I can do things. I can blank out for a while. I just can't keep it up. He was asking me a lot of questions, and being so supportive. I think I understand more now how totally out of it I am during the whole thing. I get upset with myself because there seems to be no reason for my being unable to stay. But he reminded me how often my body makes autonomous decisions that I've had enough, and that it probably is beyond my conscious control or full awareness. I do see now how dreamlike it all is.
Posted by Phillipa on October 13, 2008, at 20:14:46
In reply to Re: Never mind » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 19:54:21
Dinah I flush public toilets with my feet and use my sleeves to open the doors. But this is because MRSA is found in bathrooms now. So it's something to be aware of. And I do try to avoid sickness. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 20:18:55
In reply to Re: So scared, posted by JayJ on October 13, 2008, at 7:55:39
My therapist was saying that this couldn't possibly have started when I think it did, with my brother. That my reaction was too infantile. Then he assured me he didn't mean the bad sort of infantile. He meant the primitive sort of infantile.
I told him about the dream, and how my mother thinks it could actually have happened, but how I didn't think it was possible that I could dream about it because I'd have been nine or ten months old, most likely. I don't really believe I could have memories from that age. But my therapist thinks it explains things better. I'm not sure how. I had the dream before my brother came, but the fear only exploded out of control after he came. I had it before, but it didn't drive my life.
The dream was about being in what seems to be a playpen with three other babies. One of them throws up and is taken away to be cleaned up, but I'm left dirty. It would be linked with abandonment, because that would have been when my mother put me in daycare for the first time to go back to work.
Then the obvious parallel when my brother came to live with us, another abandonment.
To my mind it has to be symbolic rather than a real memory.
But the knowledge has never helped much. I've known forever. Even back when I was uncommunitive with my therapist when I was an adolescent.
Posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 20:42:12
In reply to Re: So scared » JayJ, posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 20:18:55
He didn't let me distract or divert or float away. He kept my feet to the fire. But the whole time I felt held and cared for. I feel so safe when he's physically present. It's magic.
Posted by JayJ on October 14, 2008, at 6:46:33
In reply to Re: So scared » JayJ, posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 20:18:55
Thanks for being so willing to share. I admire that a lot. There really does seem to be a lot about your brother on your mind in relation to the problem. Are you sure the "dream" really preceded him. I have similar things about early childhood, where I am pretty sure the "memory" images I have in my head were created by picking up fragmented bits of information about that really early period but much later, when I was in the 8-9 year range. They certainly look like real memories, but I'm almost certain they're not because of some factual details.The symbolism in your dream is certainly consistent with the sense of contamination you talk about and not knowing when or if you are going to be able to get over it. I probably shouldn't keep pushing in this way, but how do you feel about your brother now, and how did you feel about him then? Perhaps importantly if you can get to it, how does the "now" you feel about the "then" him and the "then" you. He certainly seems to loom large in the whole issue. Of course, as you say, sometimes knowing this stuff doesn't get you past it. I just can't help wondering if you have missed or buried some incident back there. Do your "incantations" ever work to overcome it, and does such a mystical or magical approach to heal your psyche mean something in this whole area?
Sorry, I shouldn't keep harping on this, I guess it sounds like such fertile ground to me, but you have probably been over it and over it.
I really wish I could help, but at least you certainly have all of my best wishes and sympathy.
JayJ
Posted by Dinah on October 14, 2008, at 13:13:29
In reply to My therapist is so cool, posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 20:42:12
Sometimes he just doesn't understand, doesn't remember, falls asleep, doesn't hear me, says completely the wrong thing, or all of the above.
I think it's unfortunate that when I feel bad, I want to see him every day (and those words don't do the petulant tone justice). And when I feel bad, I think I annoy him so he really can only put up with me a few times a week.
Today he asked me if I'd ever vomited on myself, and told me that he was once driving in his car...
At which point I broke into strong hysterics, put my hand over my ears, sobbed, and finally floated away. I think I scared him. :(
I will assume he was driving in his car and thought that he might ask me if I'd ever thrown up on myself. I need to never be able to visualize my therapist and vomit together.
He was a little weird with me after that. I think I scared him.
It's a good thing that I feel fairly confident in his care and positive reward for me, or days like today would upset me. Instead, I really want to see him tomorrow, but I think the message I left him was probably too garbled for him to understand that, even if he does have time to see me, and can bear to see me.
Posted by Dinah on October 14, 2008, at 13:27:22
In reply to Re: So scared, posted by JayJ on October 14, 2008, at 6:46:33
I don't think I quite understand. Can you give a for instance?
My memories of the dream are by now more memories of memories than memories. I do remember telling my mother about them when I was still trying to explain to her why I was so upset. And I remember they got worse after my brother came to live with us prior to his adoption. He was five or six and I was, I think, ten or eleven. When he almost threw up on me, I had my first panic attack, and things went from bad to worse to even worse until I ended up at the psychiatrist's taking thorazine. But I refused to talk to him about what was wrong because if people were going to be mad at me or not believe me, I wasn't going to tell them the truth. I'd rather they be angry with me for something not true.
I wish my mother would have believed me. It would have been easier to address the problem then, before layers and layers of defenses and dissociation got built piece by piece on top of the basic foundation.
I think my therapist is just now starting to believe me, after all these years. My fault more than his. I guess I still had all those old fears about someone important to me not believing me, or being angry, or laughing or something. It is kind of stupid, really, fear of being around someone who vomits.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on October 14, 2008, at 15:42:02
In reply to My therapist is a total idiot sometimes, posted by Dinah on October 14, 2008, at 13:13:29
Dinah,
I'm so sorry this happened! I know once there is a picture in my mind of the therapist doing/being/saying something it feels like it gets stuck in my head forever. I totally understand your response. I'm so glad to hear that you can hold his positive regard for you at the same time that you feel annoyed with him and misunderstood by him. Would it be selfish of me to feel inspired by this? I hope he can make more time for you this week. I'm *sure* if he can't it has *nothing* to do with not being able to bear you.FMD
Posted by Dinah on October 14, 2008, at 17:02:11
In reply to Re: My therapist is a total idiot sometimes, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 14, 2008, at 15:42:02
He did see past my attempts at giving him an out, and called me back to say he has something tomorrow at his other office but not Thursday.
I'm looking forward to seeing him at that office, because he was the best he's been in a long time there, while he was perfectly dreadful today at his usual office.
It took me a long time to be able to hold the good and the bad together. I still fail at times, but this time I think I can manage to write it down to a bad day. Of course, I might be able to hold onto him better if he had had a good day today and I left feeling warm and held. I might not have needed tomorrow's session. Which will be the third day in a row, and will definitely stretch his tolerance.
Thanks, FMD
Posted by JayJ on October 15, 2008, at 7:18:46
In reply to Re: So scared » JayJ, posted by Dinah on October 14, 2008, at 13:27:22
I'm sorry if I am continuing with this beyond it's use. I guess it's because it echos some of my own work right now, not in the specifics of your "issue", but trying to claw through fragmented memories, and perhaps, as you say memories of memories, to try to figure out the basis of my own difficulties. Of course I'm sure that's what the great majority of us are doing, but for some reason I got caught up by your open and generous description of your problem and then thinking about its possible origins. I guess the specificity of this particular issue makes it seem it should be possible to pinpoint the "cause". However, as I said before I know you have been struggling with this for ages, so the chances of me coming up with any great insight are minimal. Hopefully at least it helps knowing that we are thinking about you.
Now I can see the time frame of the progression of the problem, it changes my thoughts a little, and I understand now that something was clearly there prior to the appearance of your brother. It looks like he just took over and combined the issues related to his appearing on the scene with your pre-existing anxieties to form a full blown trauma that you are still struggling with. From what you say, it sounds like there are two issues to address, the origin of the early anxiety and then the basis for the later "trauma". From what you said initially, it sounds like both are based in inadequate care for you, leading perhaps to a sense of "abandonment" right at the time when a girl can really use a little extra support. To borrow from another thread, could this time frame in anyway have coincided with the onset of your periods and all of those issues? Maybe it's a bit young, but if anyone already has problems with "bodily fluids" I can imagine the onset of menstrual problems might really just add in to top things off.
Part of my previous questions were trying to get at what you felt/feel about your brother. Did you hate him as a usurper but not be able to express it openly? Then perhaps the anger came out focussing on a trait of his that nobody can really like and you had already expressed concern about? It might have been a relatively safe way of expressing your anger/pain and getting back at him, maybe even getting some attention for you, without having to address the real issue directly.
OK, enough - I hope I haven't offended you at all with anything I've said. That would be the last thing I want. Perhaps I'm just stretching my exploring muscles for my own search, but it really is meant with the best of intent for you.
I hope all goes well.
JayJ
Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2008, at 8:21:14
In reply to Re: So scared, posted by JayJ on October 15, 2008, at 7:18:46
> I'm sorry if I am continuing with this beyond it's use.
Not at all! I'm sorry if I worded my question abruptly. I appreciate your input, and just wanted to make sure I understood the question properly. A lot of times "for instances" help me do that.
> I guess it's because it echos some of my own work right now, not in the specifics of your "issue", but trying to claw through fragmented memories, and perhaps, as you say memories of memories, to try to figure out the basis of my own difficulties.
Perhaps I don't do that as much as I should. Between the time involved and my talent at dissociation, memory is tricky for me in some ways. I can remember some specifics, but I often can't place them in context. Perhaps that's the reason that I also grab onto details that would place them, and assure me the memories are real. In this case, the memory of the discussion with my mother is solid, while the memories of the things we discussed (apart from the conversation) aren't as strong. I'd have held on to that memory because it was something I could check every once in a while with her recollections, at least back when her memories were a bit more reliable.
I do hold on to them, because the entire thing is inexplicable to me, and I'm always hoping one day I'll find the key. My strongest current theory was formed with big contributions from the ideas expressed by Babble poster noa. (Thank you, noa)
My thought is that early on, before my brother, and not necessarily from events in my dream but possibly from events that sparked my dreams, my amygdala "learned" that vomit was a life threatening event that demanded instant action. I have very clear memories of the summer before my brother came, when I was in a long car trip with a cousin with a weak stomach, I had a lot of the same symptoms but no panic attacks.
The experiences with my brother strengthened that link between vomiting and a very strong, immediate, faster than thought amygdala response. At the same time, my OCD kicked in and pushed the whole thing far past a phobia into a way of life.
Because of the invalidation of my fears, particularly by my mother who was up to then the closest person in the world to me, my dissociative tendencies kicked in. Between that and the healthy coping mechanisms I learned but somewhat misapplied, I erected a piecemeal scaffolding of coping mechanisms that not only distanced and protected me from the fear, but also protected the fear from me. It's hard for me to touch the fear with conscious thought or will or logical thoughts.
> Part of my previous questions were trying to get at what you felt/feel about your brother. Did you hate him as a usurper but not be able to express it openly? Then perhaps the anger came out focussing on a trait of his that nobody can really like and you had already expressed concern about? It might have been a relatively safe way of expressing your anger/pain and getting back at him, maybe even getting some attention for you, without having to address the real issue directly.
Well, I did "hate" the usurper. For taking my parents (because of course he was the new puppy and got a lot of their attention), and also for bringing this element of terror into my previously safe house. If my parents had handled it better, it might have gone better. But I was pretty good at expressing it. He wasn't half bad at expressing his feelings for me either.
I do think you're on to something. I've often noted that my obsessions are a way of focusing my attention and anxiety about lots of things into one fear. I had lots of stuff going on in my life. My brother coming, my best friend leaving, moving to a school where I was tormented and bullied, fights with my mother, my uncle coming to stay with us for a while. Not all at 10 or 11, but in the few years around that time. And my hormones did kick in with the usual emotional impact, although my actual period started later.
While I wasn't shy about expressing my feelings concerning any of these things, my theory goes something like this.
Just as gulf storms get sucked into the vortex of a hurricane, a lot of the energy of the rage and fear and hatred (towards my brother and my classmates) and my grief (at effectively losing my mother) and my frustration (at my impotence to change any of it) got sucked into the vortex of my fears about vomit. It traveled over the warm waters of secrecy, because my fears were met with disbelief and anger, and because secrets confer power. It all became the perfect storm for my amygdala.
> OK, enough - I hope I haven't offended you at all with anything I've said. That would be the last thing I want. Perhaps I'm just stretching my exploring muscles for my own search, but it really is meant with the best of intent for you.
Again, not at all. Writing this to you helped consolidate various thoughts that have been bouncing around in my brain but that I haven't yet coalesced into a full narrative. That's one of the biggest benefits I've found on Babble. Other posters not only provide insight and wisdom, but answering them allows me an opportunity to structure my whirling thoughts. So I thank you.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2008, at 8:57:32
In reply to Re: So scared » JayJ, posted by Dinah on October 15, 2008, at 8:21:14
> My thought is that early on, before my brother, and not necessarily from events in my dream but possibly from events that sparked my dreams, my amygdala "learned" that vomit was a life threatening event that demanded instant action.
Actually this makes perfect sense.
Whatever the facts were that sparked my dream (and I still doubt it was memories from that early) the dream was showing that in my mind I had linked someone else vomiting, perhaps the sights and smells and sounds, with abandonment.
To a young child, in an evolutionary sense, abandonment *was* a life threatening emergency. A child too young to fend for itself would likely die if abandoned without intervention. After I had linked abandonment and vomit, linking abandonment and death would be totally logical to my amygdala. Since the amygdala is a pretty primitive part of the brain.
It makes me wonder... I do have that aspect of borderline personality disorder. Frantic efforts to avoid real or perceived abandonment. Intense abandonment fears and disproportionate distress at anything perceived as abandonment.
Perhaps that's all linked to an early experience of abandonment, and my amygdala being sensitized to respond that way.
Posted by JayJ on October 15, 2008, at 15:29:39
In reply to Re: So scared » JayJ, posted by Dinah on October 15, 2008, at 8:21:14
One last round :)
One more possible suggestion and one comment on a comment of yours:
>It's hard for me to touch the fear with
conscious thought or will or logical thoughts.This made me wonder a little. I see that it would probably be really tough for you, but perhaps you could try to actually read up everything on what this "thing", vomit, really is - it's role in food digestion etc. Avoid any focus on it's wrenching psychic form, but look at it in it's "dry" scientific details. Maybe if you could demystify it by taking it apart into the mundane fine details it might lose some of its power over you? Just a thought.
>because secrets confer powerThis is a real truth. I've not often seen it addressed so directly, but I've thought about it in that way before and I think that this "small" fact has a really profound effect in producing the hidden me. Part of me is determined to get to the bottom of everything and allow me to open up to the world, but I sense a large chunk of me wants to hold on to this hidden power that you allude to. I guess the loss of power would give rise to vulnerability, which is still a major fear. I would like to get rid of the parts that plague me and at times paralyze me, but losing my "secrets" would in some ways seem like a real loss. Even with all this thinking about it, something inside is still saying things like, "the secrets are mine - nobody else knows anything about them - ha! - mine, mine, mine." "I'm holding my secrets over everybody's heads and there's nothing they can do - ha!" "DH upsets me, s'OK I've still got my secrets - that'll teach him"
I'm a big girl really :)
JayJ
Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2008, at 18:57:26
In reply to Re: So scared, posted by JayJ on October 15, 2008, at 15:29:39
I did do that at one point. Try to find out all about it. It helped some. A lot of things help some.
I printed out my conceptualization for my therapist. He actually asked to keep it, which is something he almost never does. He says it was as close to an ah-hah moment he's found with me on the topic.
I wanted to know if understanding it would actually help. He said he didn't think it would necessarily help directly, but it would give the information on how to address the fear keeping in mind where it comes from. Then he tied in some of my recent imagery to what I had written. For example, I referred to my wanting to call him as soon as it had happened as holding my arms out (like a small child) wanting to be picked up and emotionally held. Of course as soon as he said it I realized how much that echoed the imagery of the dream.
It's amazing how dense I can be sometimes. :)
I'm feeling better for the moment. If no one else comes down with it, I might have time to pull myself together.
Posted by Midnightblue on October 15, 2008, at 21:50:47
In reply to Never mind, posted by Dinah on October 12, 2008, at 21:40:04
Dinah,
I hate to ask, but is it the sound, sight, or smell that bothers you most? I do think it is connected to your brother.
MB
Posted by WaterSapphire on October 17, 2008, at 0:32:32
In reply to Re: Never mind » muffled, posted by Dinah on October 13, 2008, at 19:57:54
(((DINAH))))
Hopefull you will be able to find some way to handle it. A lot easier said than done sometimes. Do you find yourself handling some situations sometimes, better than others with the physical reactions? You mentioned something that sounded sorta like what happens to me but when it happens, I feel like my head is going to explode and feel flush and faint. Sorry, my brain is a bit slow this late in the middle of the night.
Hope you are doing ok...
Posted by Dinah on October 17, 2008, at 18:51:03
In reply to Re: Never mind/triggers for Dinah » Dinah, posted by Midnightblue on October 15, 2008, at 21:50:47
The whole thing bothers me. The idea of it even. The very concept. So in that sense no one part is worse than any other part.
In a practical sense, it's the sound that I most often can't avoid. I can close my eyes on the slightest warning. But it's harder to close my ears.
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