![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on December 14, 2006, at 23:46:58
Most of you know that I talk to my therapist about this board and what it means to me. He is pretty supportive and he thinks the collective wisdom here is pretty amazing. But for some reason, I didn't tell him until today about pseudoname's suicide. He was shocked and very sad for all of us. But then the hard question -- "How did it make you feel?"
Me: "I didn't know him that well. We corresponded a few times, mostly I just read his stuff. I was shocked at first and then realized I felt this wave of understanding about his choice. I felt sad for those left, but for him I am hoping he found relief."
T: "Does it call up those feeling in you? It is an ongoing battle you, yourself, fight."
e: "I think I'm envious that it is over for him. It feels like it will never be over for me."
T: "That makes me sad. I think at some point you are going to have to choose wanting to live in order to really feel better. And I think we need to keep talking about how much of wanting to die is an old wish, the only escape a young girl could imagine."
And so the conversation went. He asked gentle questions and at the end I told him not to worry. He said he always holds the worry - that his main concern is that I will get triggered and pushed over the edge impulsively. That when I'm planning or talking about it, he feels like he has more of handle on where I am.
This is such an hard topic for me. It feels like the ultimate self-abuse secret to keep. It is the epitome of split living - inside a mess and wanting to not wake up tomorrow and outside decorating a Christmas tree and planning a party. I am ready to put these thoughts away for awhile, I made a deal with myself. I even told my therapist today that I'm much more worried about my birthday - which is a month away, because it is a "significant" number this year. Was I hinting? Do I want him to lecture me? Sometimes when we talk about this I feel so cold and removed. Is this a reenactment of keeping secrets from my mother -- I wanted her to guess my terrible secret and save me -- do I want that now? Or am I truly almost done? And if you knew everything I was dealing with, you might agree I have reason to be done. Maybe the ideation itself is "just" a coping mechanism, a way to imagine an end to pain and grief and frustration.
I don't know why I'm posting this. Maybe I'm looking for a frank conversation about a topic that is so hard to discuss. Maybe I'm just tired.
Posted by jammerlich on December 15, 2006, at 1:19:49
In reply to Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger, posted by Daisym on December 14, 2006, at 23:46:58
I've been sitting here for what seems like forever trying to get my thoughts in some sort of order, but they just won't be organized. I'm not really sure what you're looking for in the way of responses and it's sort of an 'all over the place' kind of topic. So, I'm just going to throw it out there and not worry about whether it makes sense. I hope that's o.k.
I'm envious of pseudoname. I feel sad for the people he left behind, but I'm envious of him. He did the thing I think of every day and am just too cowardly to do myself. And do you know why I'm scared? Because then everyone would know how not together I am. Oh my god, they would *know*. Why do I need to keep up this illusion of strength? Even in my passing? I really just don't understand it.
It's so hard to talk frankly with our T's about it because, if you say the wrong thing, they have the power to have you hospitalized. That's the problem for me, at least. And I'd really like to talk about it. I'd like to tell her how I've researched on the internet to find ways that make this horrible thing a little less horrible for me and for the people who love me. I'd like to talk with her about how I've wanted not to be here for as long as I can remember. Is it what I really want or just something that's become a habit of sorts? Seems like a pretty important thing to figure out.
If you ask me, life sucks. Yes, there are moments of joy, but they're mere distractions from all the crap. I'm not sure if I could ever see it as flipped.....where the crap is just a distraction from the joy. If it's o.k. to be individuals in so many other ways, why is it not o.k. to be an individual in this way? Why does not wanting to be here mean something is "wrong" with you? Maybe it's just another way in which people are different. Could it just be survival of the fittest or something? More things I'd like to discuss.
And I think about "The Sea Inside," a movie I saw sometime ago about the right to die. One line really stood out to me: "Living is a right, not an obligation." Very powerful. I can't get it out of my mind.
Keep talking to your T, Daisy. He seems so good in that he tells you how he feels, but doesn't seem to freak out. I don't know if you're hinting or not. Maybe you're just making it clear this is a topic that needs to stay at the forefront for now. Whatever it is, he'll figure it out.
Sorry if this was all completely unrelated to what you said. My mind is a blur and I keep doubting whether I should even post this. But, I will. I just hope I don't regret it later.
Posted by cubic_me on December 15, 2006, at 7:38:59
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger » Daisym, posted by jammerlich on December 15, 2006, at 1:19:49
DaisyM and Jammerlich,
I too don't know where to start with this topic, we think about it so much and seems so difficult to articulate.
I can completely understand the conflict between getting on with things and wanting to die. I don't know how we do it, and I don't know if you've experienced doctors not treating you as seriously because you're able to function. That's been a problem for me.
>
> And do you know why I'm scared? Because then everyone would know how not together I am. Oh my god, they would *know*. Why do I need to keep up this illusion of strength? Even in my passing? I really just don't understand it.It's not just me...my main reason for staying alive is so that my parents (and most other people) don't find out about what's gone on with me.
The Christmas period is so difficult, I really hope things start to look up for us all when the stress of December is over. I try to be optomistic, but it doesn't always work.
Posted by Fallsfall on December 15, 2006, at 7:44:52
In reply to Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger, posted by Daisym on December 14, 2006, at 23:46:58
I only have a minute (or I'll be late for therapy!)...
I understand the place in your mind that Pseudoname holds. Can I hold another place in your mind?
4 years ago I was miserable - no, that is not a strong enough word - I was ... I can't even describe it, it was so awful. I was having suicidal thoughts all of the time, but I had also chosen a plan, and worked out all of the details so that the impact on those I love would be as small as it could be. I hadn't chosen a date, but I wasn't far from doing that. Life was not worth living.
Today, I am doing so well. I'm in school, my library is about to install a new circ system (and it was ALL my doing!), I have a plan for a thesis (I know, GG - I'm nuts, I don't have to do a thesis...), I know what I want to do for work when I graduate. I washed my kitchen floor yesterday and cleaned two bathrooms the day before.
I understand the desire to escape and not have to deal with all of it. But please hold this other image in your mind. That it is possible to move past that stage. That is it possible that life can be pretty awesome.
It is hard work. But it is worth it.
Posted by toojane on December 15, 2006, at 10:03:30
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger » Daisym, posted by Fallsfall on December 15, 2006, at 7:44:52
> 4 years ago I was miserable ... Life was not worth living.
> Today, I am doing so well... it is possible to move past that stage. That is it possible that life can be pretty awesome. It is hard work. But it is worth it.
How? How exactly did you "move past"? What did you do? I want to find a manual somewhere that says if you do this and this and that you will be well.Is mental illness something every one can "move past" if they only do the right things or are some people just stuck, no matter what they do? If you have honestly tried everything to be well and nothing works, is it ever okay to show compassion for yourself and say that is enough suffering?
Posted by muffled on December 15, 2006, at 14:26:30
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Questions » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on December 15, 2006, at 10:03:30
I think part of the problem is WHEN?
How long does a person have to suffer before its OK to die?
6 mo.? 6 years? What is the magic number?
After how many treatments does it become acceptable? 5, 10?
I dunno. Cuz it seems to hurt so many. Aperson may think their life is not worth much, but its so shocking and so hurtful to so damn many. Like ripples in a pool of water when you throw a rock in it.
At what point can you say, there is NO hope?
I may feel like I just too tired to fight anymore, but then I get a second wind, and I fight on.
I think if its to the point where even loved ones start saying its too much, then you might start to thinking, mebbe its time.
The other thing is how?
I went thru that.
Not very many good choices....
All messy one way or another....
I think when it is time for me to go, I will go into the wild forest in the back of beyond, and walk, and keep on walking.
Another hiker 'lost' in the woods.
Accidently.
But you will notice I am still here.
I have not given up the fight, even though its so very hard at times.
Sometimes I literally get by, moment to moment.
And the moments add up. And they pass.
And sometimes I have moments of SUCH joy.
I work in a city drop in center 1x/wk, and sometimes, when I exchange a smile with someone, my hearts warms, and glows, and hope returns.....
At least while I alive, I got a chance...
I not hurting people too much, in fact I do some good,
and maybe, just maybe, it'll be OK.
But thats just me.
In no way could I possibly judge anothers pain.
Muffled
Posted by Declan on December 15, 2006, at 15:53:34
In reply to Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger, posted by Daisym on December 14, 2006, at 23:46:58
FWIW I tell myself that I will save my suicide up to avoid the almost certainly nasty last bit.
This gives me more satisfaction now than it will likely give me then, what with the messiness of the various options.
At least this way it's kinda like I'm less trapped.We put up our Christmas tree today.
Can we just accept that life is often unavoidably painful for many of us?
Does that help at all (though I certainly don't suggest it does)?
Posted by Declan on December 15, 2006, at 16:02:46
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Questions » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on December 15, 2006, at 10:03:30
is it ever okay to show compassion for yourself and say that is enough suffering?
My answer to that is 'yes, of course'. It's just that suicide is painful for those left behind.
I never thought (does anyone really?) that suicide is the coward's way out.
And if life has no meaning apart from that which we give it, where does that leave us?
But still, feelings are only feelings.I hope these random reflections do not annoy anyone.
Posted by annierose on December 15, 2006, at 16:33:35
In reply to Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger, posted by Daisym on December 14, 2006, at 23:46:58
I'm sad that the choice still looms so close to the surface for you. I know it sounds like instant relief, but the choice would be filled with regret.
Imagine if you are able, my view of "heaven". I hope that when I die, my soul allows me to "visit" the friends and family I left behind. Maybe not forever, maybe it's for as long as my heart needs, but I'll get a glimpse.
Imagine my regret if I made the choice to end my life. I would not only witness the pain of those left behind, but from far away, I would see my daughter's wedding (maybe she made a tearful prayer to herself about the mother that left her), the birth of her first child, my son and his family, buying their first home, etc. etc. I would miss so much. And so would they.
Twenty years ago, I was in that dark place. And although there is pain in my life now, it's not that penetrating knife-in-my-heart sort of pain. I manage it (some days better than others) and I know that it does pass.
I am happy that 25 years ago I sought treatment. As we all know, it's not quick, and it comes with a different sort of pain, but an attachment was built. And through that attachment, I was able to work out some of my issues and go forward with my life. And you will too. You are working with a wonderful therapist who cares for you deeply. He is holding your hand and hoping you don't let go. As am I.
I value you as a person and as a friend. I know my bad days are a little brighter when I hear "You got mail" and it's from Daisy. I smile knowing that a caring soul and comfort is only a click away. Your boys feel that and more.
You are so worth the fight.
Posted by canadagirl on December 15, 2006, at 16:42:34
In reply to Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger, posted by Daisym on December 14, 2006, at 23:46:58
As James Hollis (Jungian pyschologist) says, we need to remember there are sunlit meadows as well as swamplands of the soul. Jung suggested that 80% of our shadow is gold. The snow is sparkling there in the shadows if we are willing to peer deeply.
Posted by toojane on December 15, 2006, at 16:44:42
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Questions » toojane, posted by Declan on December 15, 2006, at 16:02:46
> But still, feelings are only feelings.I've heard this before but never understood it. A feeling is just feeling so what exactly does that mean? That it is finite or passes or what? Suffering is only suffering, so? I'm genuinely confused by the sentiment.
It is like people who say a flashback is only a memory. Anyone who has been tormented by flashbacks knows how absurd that statement is. It isn't just a memory. You are supposed to realize that it isn't really happening but actually it is. If you are in flashback, the whole event is happening exactly the same way it did the first time, except it's never finished. It repeats over and over again. There is no present or past or memory in the throes of PTSD. When it feels, sounds, smells, tastes and looks completely the same how is it possible to say it isn't "really" happening.
Posted by Declan on December 15, 2006, at 17:28:12
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Questions » Declan, posted by toojane on December 15, 2006, at 16:44:42
Feelings come and go, but also pain is just a sensation. For example, I have some pain from a couple of things. As long as it is not *too* bad, I am content *enough* to feel that I am not my pain. I would of course prefer it otherwise, and if the pain were worse I would prefer to be dead. But as it is I'm here (talking to you) and that is OK.
I'm in my 50s now and I didn't feel this kind of distance from my uncomfortableness when I was in my 20s. The effect of experience? I don't want to sound too hopeful.
Posted by madeline on December 15, 2006, at 17:31:44
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Questions » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on December 15, 2006, at 10:03:30
I don't know if mental illness is something you ever move past, but I do think it is something that you can move with.
But you have to move.
What I have done in the past is just simply say to myself, Okay - today I will do one thing or I will set one goal or I will do one thing that has the potential to give me one ounce of pleasure.
I promise myself that no matter how crappy I feel, I will go do that one thing. Whether it's ride a roller coaster, walk until I find a wildflower, buy a cupcake, change the paper towels or watch the sunset. I discipline myself and I do it.
You start finding things to do that you look forward to, a little hope creeps in, and you start to build momentum and a positive change.
But the most important thing to me was to just do it. Don't wait until you feel better, just do it now.
Maddie
Posted by Dinah on December 15, 2006, at 17:35:04
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger » Daisym, posted by jammerlich on December 15, 2006, at 1:19:49
> "Living is a right, not an obligation."
I think my thoughts on this is that the choices we make in life ultimately do make living an obligation.
I chose to get married, have a son, form connections with others who care about me.
Even if (and there's certainly no guarantee) suicide would end my pain, it's not like it would disappear into the ether. It would disburse and maybe even grow, planted by me into each and every person who'd care if I live or die.
I'm absolutely terrified of living. But I'm also terrified of hurting others. It's what keeps me going some days. I carry those thoughts of escape through to past when I die, and to the consequences to others.
(Responsibility OCD as a positive thing, I guess.)
Besides, my husband and therapist would be soooo angry with me. I hate it when they're angry with me.
Posted by Dinah on December 15, 2006, at 17:41:59
In reply to Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger, posted by Daisym on December 14, 2006, at 23:46:58
> Maybe the ideation itself is "just" a coping mechanism, a way to imagine an end to pain and grief and frustration.
Maybe not just, but maybe you should consider how much it may be? Things always seem less impossible to bear for me, if I think that there's an end to them, or I have some control.
I have a mental set of contigencies where I think, ok, this would be the point. But one of those contingencies did come about, and I did survive. But it was such a scary idea that I'd be paralyzed by fear all the time.
I'd miss you an awful lot, Daisy. The world is a better place for you being in it, however it might not feel that way sometimes.
Posted by Dinah on December 15, 2006, at 17:43:49
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger » Daisym, posted by Dinah on December 15, 2006, at 17:41:59
> I'd miss you an awful lot, Daisy. The world is a better place for you being in it, however it might not feel that way sometimes.
I meant feel that way to you sometimes, of course. It always feels that way to me.
Posted by Daisym on December 15, 2006, at 18:33:34
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger, posted by Dinah on December 15, 2006, at 17:43:49
I can see that lots of people have thought about this topic in lots of ways. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has done internet searches...I even read a bunch of articles about the effects on therapists who lose clients this way. Like somehow I could make it better if I only did it right.
I think I believe that Dinah is right -- living is an obligation -- but I also think that you have an obligation to yourself at some point too. Perhaps this is where the compassion comes in for your own suffering. Is it easier to think of letting go when someone is in terrible physical pain? Why should mental pain be so different?
My therapist tells me that feelings aren't static. They evolved and change and so whatever I'm feeling now is unlikely to remain the way I feel next week , or month or year. He likes to say, "you don't know. You can't know. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem."
Thank you to all who said they would miss me. I believe that I would be missed and I'm so touched by that. And I believe that I still have things left to do and I can make a difference for other people. But I also believe that I've less and less resources within myself to keep making each day a productive day. Can a person decide "I've done enough?"
Kids though...that's the thing. There are ways to do this that wouldn't look like you did this. Accidents happen. But still, you left them. There is no getting around that.
People tell me not to lose hope. But what am I hoping for? I also wonder how much anger is wrapped around this. Logically I think suicide is an angry response to the world but that is an intellectual process, not what I really feel. Mostly I'm appalled and angry at myself because I keep going back to this.
Posted by Declan on December 15, 2006, at 21:37:17
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger, posted by Daisym on December 15, 2006, at 18:33:34
Some kinds of pain are more central than others. Pains that can't be externalised are more difficult to bear.
This is what makes psychological pain so difficult. The pain of sciatica, for example, is easier to bear than the pain of opiate withdrawal.
Fear is hard to bear. That which robs us of dignity and self respect is hard. Having to bear these things in the absence of hope is hard.
My main concern is not to make a bad situation worse, having made enough mistakes to be frightened of adding to the list.What Dinah said about the dispersal and planting of pain sounded right to me.
The absence of comfort and the great need for it is part of the human story.I'm not trying to suggest anything at all about the worthwhileness of life.
Is this what they mean when they say 'Be Here Now'? I always feel I am and wish I wasn't, no doubt missing the point.
Posted by Daisym on December 15, 2006, at 23:50:57
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger » Daisym, posted by jammerlich on December 15, 2006, at 1:19:49
I've been sitting here for what seems like forever trying to get my thoughts in some sort of order, but they just won't be organized. I'm not really sure what you're looking for in the way of responses and it's sort of an 'all over the place' kind of topic. So, I'm just going to throw it out there and not worry about whether it makes sense. I hope that's o.k.
****It's always OK to just "think out loud" in an unorganized way. We'll muddle through together.I'm envious of pseudoname. I feel sad for the people he left behind, but I'm envious of him. He did the thing I think of every day and am just too cowardly to do myself. And do you know why I'm scared? Because then everyone would know how not together I am. Oh my god, they would *know*. Why do I need to keep up this illusion of strength? Even in my passing? I really just don't understand it.
****Sounds like something you are good at - and it probably makes other people feel OK. I've taken care of my family by not letting on how screwed up I am my whole life. So I don't want to suddenly let them know by dying. But this need to hide all your pain is probably one of the reason you (and I) find ourselves in this lonely pit of despair.It's so hard to talk frankly with our T's about it because, if you say the wrong thing, they have the power to have you hospitalized. That's the problem for me, at least. And I'd really like to talk about it. I'd like to tell her how I've researched on the internet to find ways that make this horrible thing a little less horrible for me and for the people who love me. I'd like to talk with her about how I've wanted not to be here for as long as I can remember. Is it what I really want or just something that's become a habit of sorts? Seems like a pretty important thing to figure out.
****It is hugely important to figure out. You need to talk to her about this. Say it like you said it here -- tell her this is a discussion, not a declaration of intent. I don't know your therapist but most of them are trained to know the difference between ideation and intent. It was so hard for me to bring up the first time and it remains hard to talk about. This isn't where my therapist and I are doing our best dance together. He gets nervous but he admits it. He handles his own anxiety by increasing contact, which is fine by me most of the time. I have a way to contact him immediately if I need to, and we have a "contract" in place, meaning I have promised to call him if things get really rough.If you ask me, life sucks. Yes, there are moments of joy, but they're mere distractions from all the crap. I'm not sure if I could ever see it as flipped.....where the crap is just a distraction from the joy. If it's o.k. to be individuals in so many other ways, why is it not o.k. to be an individual in this way? Why does not wanting to be here mean something is "wrong" with you? Maybe it's just another way in which people are different. Could it just be survival of the fittest or something? More things I'd like to discuss.
****Keep trying to bring this up. I think it is OK to be an individual this way, but it is hard for other people to not hold hope for us. They want for themselves to believe that life is good "if only" --And I think about "The Sea Inside," a movie I saw sometime ago about the right to die. One line really stood out to me: "Living is a right, not an obligation." Very powerful. I can't get it out of my mind.
Keep talking to your T, Daisy. He seems so good in that he tells you how he feels, but doesn't seem to freak out. I don't know if you're hinting or not. Maybe you're just making it clear this is a topic that needs to stay at the forefront for now. Whatever it is, he'll figure it out.
****I bring it up when I need to. He brings it up when he is wondering. The younger I feel the harder some of this is to push away. Monday he wants to talk about how to call, what to say and when I should call him. Stuff I think I know but it is good to have a reminder that it is OK to need him.Sorry if this was all completely unrelated to what you said. My mind is a blur and I keep doubting whether I should even post this. But, I will. I just hope I don't regret it later.
****I hope you don't regret posting this. I hope you can find a way to talk about some of this with your therapist. It seems so important.
Posted by Fallsfall on December 16, 2006, at 8:50:23
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Questions » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on December 15, 2006, at 10:03:30
I think that for me the way "past it" was to start thinking outside the box. I had been seeing a therapist for 8 1/2 years - and I was becoming increasingly miserable (even while I was learning to cope better with being miserable). It wasn't working for me.
The turning point came when I said "As terrified as I am to make a change - to do something different - life can't get much worse than it is now." And I took the risk, and life got better.
I guess the bottom line is - if something isn't working, then try something else.
Was it easy? Of course not! Read the archives - I started posting here just before I made the change. It is all here.
For **ME** the change required was to go from CBT to Psychodynamic therapy. Each person will have their own path.
Posted by Poet on December 16, 2006, at 10:42:42
In reply to Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger, posted by Daisym on December 14, 2006, at 23:46:58
Hi Daisy,
Last week in therapy I asked my T to give me one reason I should stay alive. Yesterday in therapy my T said that I am *frequently suicidal* and that she admires my courage that I keep trying even though life is difficult for me. She's never said suicide is an old wish, but she has said having a plan is a form of comfort to me.
I don't think you want your T to lecture you, I know I don't want a lecture from mine, just an understanding of why I feel the way I do, and a willingness to sit with me and listen.
((((Daisy))))
Poet
Posted by antigua on December 16, 2006, at 13:28:05
In reply to Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger, posted by Daisym on December 14, 2006, at 23:46:58
Daisy, it's so hard to keep going, I know, especially when you are in the middle of it. Be nicer to yourself; remember you are going through a truly, truly difficult time this holiday season. On top of your therapy, you have the situation with your DH and the holidays to boot, to pretend you're o.k. It's o.k. NOT to be o.k. Indulge a little, but don't go over that edge.
A story for you. I was in hypnosis a couple of weeks ago and to make a long story short, I was supposed to pick a room to enter down a long, beautiful corridor. Some of the rooms held happy memories, others were scary. I was drawn to a scarier memory, I couldn't help it, about the anguish of the little girl after the sa. How she was stuck in that room and couldn't escape. (I was never allowed to leave my room at night). Well, in my mind I sealed the door so nobody could come in and I put one of those half-doors in. You know those that open at the top and the bottom is a regular door? I wanted the little girl to have a way to get out. It was so beautiful I can't explain it adequately. The birds were chirping, I could smell the earth and I remembered how much I loved to play outside as a child. It was such a visceral feeling--to leave the door so my little girl could go play in the woods and stamp in the brook, dancing and singing like I used to do, in my own safe places.
It's hard to remember that there were good things, too. This reminded me. As tough as it is now, I have faith that things will get better. I have to have faith, a belief in myself, because it's all I have. No one else can do it for me. I have to hold on and remember that bad feelings pass, although it can take time.
Your post triggered me a lot. I won't go into details about my own plan, but as I decorate the tree today with my two younger children, I feel such a huge sadness mixed in with the joy. I don't remember decorating a single tree when I was a child, although we always had them. While it is a good time of the year mostly, it can be so very, very sad too.
Just trust me, Daisy. This time will pass. I understand the envy you feel, but you are too important to too many people. Sorry to play the ultimate card, but your kids still need you. You are going through such a time of transition and I am in such awe in how well you really are handling it. You may not see it, but we see it here. You are brave to express your true feelings. Getting them out there is so hard.
I asked my pdoc how can I feel so good and SO bad at the same time? to want to end it all but to be so happy too? There's always the internal struggle, but it goes back to faith (and I'm not talking about religious faith), just faith in the goodness of the world and in my children and my life. To be brave enough to do what I need to do to get better. And I am better, but the moments always creep in; it's part of the process.
I hope I didn't hurt you by this. We really do care about you; and you are such an inspiration to so many others.
best,
antigua
Posted by littleone on December 17, 2006, at 21:05:35
In reply to Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger, posted by Daisym on December 14, 2006, at 23:46:58
> T: "That makes me sad. I think at some point you are going to have to choose wanting to live in order to really feel better.
Hi Daisy,
I wanted to say something to you, but I'm worried it will come out the wrong way and just sound terrible.
Re your T's comment above, it really struck a chord with me. I remember reading in "Got Parts" quite a while ago, it mentions something along the lines of how you need to choose to live and make a commitment to that promise before you can heal. I read that when I was feeling very unwell.
I remember that it made me feel real sad because I just couldn't make that promise/commitment. And all I could think was it was no wonder I wasn't getting any better.
I guess I could see that it was a necessary thing, but I just couldn't see how to do it. I couldn't give up my escape option.
Today, I am doing so much better. Today, that escape is no longer an option for me. Having said that, I still can't make a promise to live. I get worried I'll fall back in the pit and need that escape option. But even though I can't make the promise, I think I feel the promise inside me.
And I can tell it's made a big difference in my therapy. It feels like I've really leaped forward.
I really wanted to tell you what I did to make myself better. I *so* want to do that. But I really have no idea. Which scares me a lot. If I don't know what I did right, how do I know to do it again next time I'm unwell?
So I've asked my T for his thoughts and, if I can remember his answer, I let you know what he says. However, I often get lost in the fog when we talk about this stuff, so I might forget or get muddled.
I guess I wanted to say that it *does* get better. Even when it feels like it never will. I'm living proof for you. I wish I could give you more than that.
The other thing I wanted to say is that if you did take up that escape option, I would miss you terribly. I miss you a lot already when you go quiet on the boards. I really don't think you realise just how much you bring to us all here.
I know you're having a real rough time (and have been for ages now). I'm just so glad that you're still around to post about it.
I know you talked about the secret shame surrounding this for you. To me it seems like a lot of the replies you've received are very accepting of what you've said. I guess I wonder if you can feel that acceptance, if it helps with your shame and the secrecy, what the acceptance does for you and your wishes for this escape.
I know that for me, I was unable to recognise or feel acceptance until it was pointed out to me by my T. I have had to learn to feel the warmth that comes with acceptance. I guess I was interested in your thoughts because I'm working on some shame/acceptance stuff at the moment.
Posted by Daisym on December 19, 2006, at 1:05:14
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger » Daisym, posted by littleone on December 17, 2006, at 21:05:35
I thought I posted this last night, but it seems to have disappeared. So I'm trying again...
>
> I wanted to say something to you, but I'm worried it will come out the wrong way and just sound terrible.
***I'm not worried. Thank you for wanting to share with me.
>
> Re your T's comment above, it really struck a chord with me. I remember reading in "Got Parts" quite a while ago, it mentions something along the lines of how you need to choose to live and make a commitment to that promise before you can heal. I read that when I was feeling very unwell.
>
***I haven't read this book -- did you like it? I tried to give up looking for answers in books but I'm back to it again. My therapist just recommended that I read, and we talk about, "The Soul's Code" because I've been pretty distraught about how insidious the effects of abuse are.> I remember that it made me feel real sad because I just couldn't make that promise/commitment. And all I could think was it was no wonder I wasn't getting any better.
<<All I can promise right now is that I won't do something impulsive without giving my therapist the opportunity to talk to me. Sometimes I think I've promised to at least say good-bye. But sometimes I know I've promised to keep trying.
>
> I guess I could see that it was a necessary thing, but I just couldn't see how to do it. I couldn't give up my escape option.
>
<<I understand this feeling. I always think, if things get too hard, well...And then I think, can they possibly get harder than this?> Today, I am doing so much better. Today, that escape is no longer an option for me. Having said that, I still can't make a promise to live. I get worried I'll fall back in the pit and need that escape option. But even though I can't make the promise, I think I feel the promise inside me.
>
***I'm glad you can feel it. My therapist sometimes describes the changes I am making as new shoots, coming up out of the ground. But they are so fragile, when they get stepped on, they wither quickly. But it sounds like your change is taking roots deep inside yourself and you can feel it and know it will keep growing. Your therapist is a wonderful gardener.> And I can tell it's made a big difference in my therapy. It feels like I've really leaped forward.
>
> I really wanted to tell you what I did to make myself better. I *so* want to do that. But I really have no idea. Which scares me a lot. If I don't know what I did right, how do I know to do it again next time I'm unwell?
>
***I don't think it is anything you can duplicate, I'm guessing it has to be created each time for each situation. But having the confidence and knowledge that you did it once, so you can do it again, is probably the biggest thing to "learn" anyway. So don't sweat the details, just remember that you can make it through. And it sounds like you've learned how to get support and accept help, another huge thing for making it through.> So I've asked my T for his thoughts and, if I can remember his answer, I let you know what he says. However, I often get lost in the fog when we talk about this stuff, so I might forget or get muddled.
***That happens to me too. When I'm lost in the cloud of emotions, I can't remember his words. I just sort of "feel" my way through the session, does that make sense? Other times, I can remember verbatim what gets said. I'm glad I'm in the habit of journaling, because then I can go back and think about stuff more.> I guess I wanted to say that it *does* get better. Even when it feels like it never will. I'm living proof for you. I wish I could give you more than that.
>
***Offering yourself as living proof, just like Fallsfall did, is huge. And I thank you both for the hope. And I'm so glad you are both feeling better and moving back into life again. Expecting life to hold joy is a huge thing.> The other thing I wanted to say is that if you did take up that escape option, I would miss you terribly. I miss you a lot already when you go quiet on the boards. I really don't think you realise just how much you bring to us all here.
>
***Thank you for that. I sometimes think I talk too much here, or say the wrong things. Or I post about the same things over and over again. And I always feel like a stick in the mud. Sometimes I long to share a silly mood or start a silly thread, (remember the "what color are your therapist's socks thread?) but then it passes and I go quiet again. Why can't it be fleeting sad feelings instead of fleeting good feelings?> I know you're having a real rough time (and have been for ages now). I'm just so glad that you're still around to post about it.
>
**Thank you for that too.> I know you talked about the secret shame surrounding this for you. To me it seems like a lot of the replies you've received are very accepting of what you've said. I guess I wonder if you can feel that acceptance, if it helps with your shame and the secrecy, what the acceptance does for you and your wishes for this escape.
>
***Reading all the replies makes me think that this is a subject that too many of us struggle with. And it isn't well understood at all, even by most therapists. Are these thoughts due to the wish for escape from problems? Or are they a way to end the inner-pain? I'm not asking if anyone will miss me, I know I'll be missed. I know I'm loved by some and admired by others. What I've been trying to really understand is why the wish to die? Why not quit my job? Or become reckless? Or numb out with drugs or alcohol? Why do I immediately go to the most extreme option, instead of equally unacceptable choices, but less permanent? There is a seductive fascination about this for me, the thought of rest and relief.> I know that for me, I was unable to recognise or feel acceptance until it was pointed out to me by my T. I have had to learn to feel the warmth that comes with acceptance. I guess I was interested in your thoughts because I'm working on some shame/acceptance stuff at the moment.
<<I think first you have to accept yourself and whatever happened to you. And you have to forgive yourself for what you couldn't do, or any bad choice you might have made. And then you have to gather up your courage, maybe borrow some from your therapist, and be yourself with your family and friends. Being yourself around others, taking in their warmth and their sincere acceptance of you, is a wonderful step towards really healing. But it is scary as hell for me. I guess I think I'm less accepted as real, IRL. Here on Babble, you guys only see what i want you to see. And I don't have to take care of anyone but me, but I CAN take care of as many people as I choose to.Today I had a Christmas Tea Party. It was so beautiful. I worked for days, setting up tables with real china and tea cups and silver. I baked and cooked and even made a scratch cranberry tart. There were 18 very special friends, my mom and two of my sons. We had so much fun, there was a whole hat theme and everything. I wrote a poem for the invitations and let everyone know that this was my way of thanking them for all the support for the past year. I have been so blessed with so many who have helped with the separation and move, and the kids, and everything. And they like each other too, so that makes it easy to get everyone together. I took the opportunity to tell them all how much I love them and how thankful I am for them.
And yet, in this quiet aftermath, I still feel that deep sadness. I told AnnieRose - My heart feels their love and yet my soul is still crying. How can this be? What do I want? Maybe I'm just too broken for love to heal.
Posted by littleone on December 20, 2006, at 20:44:11
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Suicide - Trigger » littleone, posted by Daisym on December 19, 2006, at 1:05:14
> > I remember reading in "Got Parts" quite a while ago,
> >
> ***I haven't read this book -- did you like it?Yeah, I love it. I keep re-reading it over and over. It really appeals to a younger part. It's about DID, but I still found a lot in it that was helpful to me. Plus it is very positive and encourages you to talk to your T a lot.
> I tried to give up looking for answers in books but I'm back to it again.
I know that I tend to do that when I want more control or I don't want to trust in my T and the process. It's so nice to get book names from your T to read.
<<All I can promise right now is that I won't do something impulsive without giving my therapist the opportunity to talk to me. Sometimes I think I've promised to at least say good-bye. But sometimes I know I've promised to keep trying.They sound like pretty good promises to me. Do you think there's at least one part of you that keeps making these promises and doesn't want to use that escape?
> My therapist sometimes describes the changes I am making as new shoots, coming up out of the ground. But they are so fragile, when they get stepped on, they wither quickly.Just remember that that doesn't mean the plant is dead. New new shoots get sent up to replace them.
> But it sounds like your change is taking roots deep inside yourself and you can feel it and know it will keep growing. Your therapist is a wonderful gardener.
This sounds so nice. It made me smile.
> ***That happens to me too. When I'm lost in the cloud of emotions, I can't remember his words. I just sort of "feel" my way through the session, does that make sense?
yeah, it does
> Why can't it be fleeting sad feelings instead of fleeting good feelings?It will turn around for you one day.
> *** What I've been trying to really understand is why the wish to die? Why not quit my job? Or become reckless? Or numb out with drugs or alcohol? Why do I immediately go to the most extreme option, instead of equally unacceptable choices, but less permanent? There is a seductive fascination about this for me, the thought of rest and relief.I don't know. I know I could never do those other things you listed because inside I believe that they are all bad things and I must be good at all costs. And that suicide isn't in my internal list of bad things because it was never ever talked about when I was younger to be able to call it bad. But that's me. I think you will have your own personal reasons.
> Today I had a Christmas Tea Party. It was so beautiful.
It sounds so nice and pretty and nice.
> There were 18 very special friends, my mom and two of my sons.
I can't believe you have 18 friends. How do you manage to keep that many friends. Even 1 is beyond me. And how do you have 18 plates and cups and forks and things. And you would have spent so long cooking everything and it would have gotten gobbled up so quickly.
> We had so much fun, there was a whole hat theme and everything. I wrote a poem for the invitations and let everyone know that this was my way of thanking them for all the support for the past year.
It sounds real fun and nice.
> And yet, in this quiet aftermath, I still feel that deep sadness. I told AnnieRose - My heart feels their love and yet my soul is still crying. How can this be? What do I want?
I don't know. I don't understand love and caring and stuff. I wish I could give your soul a tissue. Some of the aloevera ones so its nose doesn't get sore.
[] [] [] there's three little tissues for you.
> Maybe I'm just too broken for love to heal.
I don't know if it's love that's supposed to heal you. I thought it was acceptance or something else.
I think that those of us who get broken end up lots stronger at those broken places. I bet your T has some super duper super glue. Maybe you can't get glued yet because you're still working on how to fit the pieces together.
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