Shown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by jammerlich on January 4, 2006, at 22:30:05
In reply to I think I've decided how I feel, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 19:59:17
> I think it feels sad and lonely.I think so too, Dinah. That's why I said before that, to me, it seemed the same as keeping your distance to avoid being hurt again. I find that distance to be sad and lonely, but often times very necessary. And I hate it, even when it's necessary. I want a place that's warm and cushiony and always absolutely safe, but I'm not so sure such a place even exists. Is hoping for it the same as hoping that money grew on trees? Futile?
And it makes sense that you feel angry. It's understandable, really it is. I'd be angry too. I AM angry. For you and for me. Can you tell him you feel angry? What about T3, can you tell her? That's assuming you even want to.
(((((Dinah)))))
Posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:41:41
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by jammerlich on January 4, 2006, at 22:30:05
> I want a place that's warm and cushiony and always absolutely safe, but I'm not so sure such a place even exists. Is hoping for it the same as hoping that money grew on trees? Futile?
Imagery...
I do believe...
One can learn to find that from within oneself...
To find that in company or communion with oneself...And to find brief moments of it in the company of strangers
And sunsets
And with the people in ones life that one does have some kind of a connection to
And yeah it is a bit different...
But I do believe...
It can fulfill that need
That driveBut mustering that is a skill...
And it has to be learned
And it requires practiceBut there is no incentive to learn or to practice
When it seems to magically occur in the presence of one other human being...
Posted by sleepygirl on January 5, 2006, at 3:57:16
In reply to I think I've decided how I feel, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 19:59:17
Posted by JenStar on January 5, 2006, at 11:06:28
In reply to I think I've decided how I feel, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 19:59:17
hi Dinah,
I think anger is a step up from the feelings of loss. Maybe it means you're working your way through the grief cycle? You had a really strong attachment to your T, and it's natural that it will take time to work through it.But like other posters said, you ARE strong, and you ARE capable, and you WILL be OK! :)
Would it help to talk to T3 about these emotions you're going through? Or T1?
Take care.
JenStar
Posted by Poet on January 5, 2006, at 18:33:20
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 21:13:04
Hi Dinah,
I'd feel angry that T1 may have used Hurricane Katrina as an excuse to stop seeing me and I assume his other patients. I'd be curious as to how he worked out therapy sessions with them, if he did.
I'd feel owed an explanation. I'd feel owed an apology. I'd feel owed assurance that I did nothing wrong.
((((Dinah))) I am so sorry that T1 has let you down like this. I know that T3 might not be the best T for you, but she does seem to understand what may have happened. Talk to her if you can. Vent to us.
Your anger needs an outlit. Don't hold it in because it'll turn against you and you don't deserve it's wrath.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 13:40:19
In reply to How I Would Feel, posted by Poet on January 5, 2006, at 18:33:20
I don't think I'll be seeing T3 again.
My therapist took a consulting job so that I couldn't see him for six weeks (and had only limited and unsatisfying email contact) in November, when not only Katrina but some personal family issues had me in crisis. But he's back now (well, about three hours away), and he comes down to town once a week and sees back to back clients for eight hours. Fortunately he schedules me to be the first one. :) I also go to where he is whenever I can for a second session. But I won't be able to do that for a some time because my latest work project involves being in contact with others, so I can't make up a day by working at night or on weekends. He says that he's moving back here this summer, but the basis of that seems iffy to me. He may be back, but he may not be too. I'll believe it when he tells me he's sold his house. Of course, I might be gone by then myself if my husband's job moves and he can't find another here. (which he probably can't)
It did upset me that he in effect deserted me for six weeks, with no assurance that he would be able to see me long term when he got back. (He says he told me he was coming back, and wasn't deserting me, and that he did come back. But that's not exactly what I remember he said.)
To my knowledge, he didn't contact any of his other clients until December, and only one other one than me tracked him down.
But...
There were ways in which he did what he could. He saw me at the house he was staying (not his house) in the casual clothes he had packed for the evacuation, a couple of times during the period we were all evacuated. I drove several hours to see him, but it was still above and beyond I guess to meet in a virtual stranger's living room.
That's why I know it's not entirely reasonable to be angry. It just hurts to get the reminder that you aren't anywhere near as high on the priority scale as they are.
Posted by happyflower on January 6, 2006, at 15:09:05
In reply to Re: How I Would Feel » Poet, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 13:40:19
Hi Dinah,
The fog had lifted my brain for a little bit, but your post kinda sound how I sort of feel. But your case is much more severe.
When I called my T this week, because I needed a session before next week, and he didn't call me back not only did I feel abandoned, but I felt he had enough of me. Now if he was a real friend, he would of wanted to talk to me without an appointment, without being paid, and would have made time for me. Sometimes reality really stinks. So feeling "left" makes me very angry, maybe it reminds me of my childhood or DH, and when I trusted my T , he left me too.
I get your anger, and I get why you want to avoid putting yourself into that position again. It seems like you like T3 but have doubts about her too, I wouldn't want to get myself attached either. But yet getting reattached to T1, after he "left" you probably doesn't feel good either, because what if he doesn't "come back". Being abandoned would really suck a second time. I would be worried about it too. Feeling attached sometimes feels good, but sometimes it is very scary when it might get taken away. It makes me think of foster children and how awful it must be for them. Well I offer you hugs ((((Dinah)))), I hope you can find strenght in yourself to allow yourself to trust one of them. (but I am saying do as I say, not as I do) I am still having trouble too in this area and maybe my mind is still cloudy, so I hope I don't offend in anyway..
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 17:58:05
In reply to Re: How I Would Feel, posted by happyflower on January 6, 2006, at 15:09:05
I'm trying to reattach to my therapist (T1). I just am ambivilant sometimes.
It's like the pain I feel when my dogs die. It hurts like anything, but I wouldn't want to give up the love and attachment just because it's going to hurt some day.
I know he doesn't care about me like I care about him. I know that's going to hurt me and anger me sometimes. I know that he or I could move, and I could get really really really hurt.
Ironically, if he hadn't bought a house three hours away, told me that he wasn't sure he could continue to be my therapist, and left for six weeks, I would have probably refused to move no matter what. No matter what the financial burden would be to my family. So maybe the rupture was for the best.
You know, I think if it weren't for this life changing event, he really would have done his best to give me forever therapy.
I mentioned it yesterday, and he said that he thought that on some level I did want that. I told him what do you mean some level? Of course I want that!
Sigh.
But of course that's more important to me than it is to him.
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 18:00:58
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by annierose on January 4, 2006, at 21:26:15
I'm ok. Thanks to medication maybe, but I'm ok.
I'm not always angry either. I'm really good at forgetting things I don't wish to remember. But T3's words brought it all back to me, which is probably one reason I was angry with her.
I do talk to my therapist about my anger from time to time. But he's reasonably good at forgetting what he doesn't want to hear too. :)
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 18:05:03
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by jammerlich on January 4, 2006, at 22:30:05
I don't think I'll be seeing T3 again, even if my therapist terminates me.
It *is* lonely. I talked to my therapist about it. His take was that different therapists have different world views. And that as much as they try to remain neutral, their world view does show through.
My therapist believes that it's worth taking the risk to care about others, and to depend on others, even if you get hurt. That people are interdependent and that that's a good thing. That what she was saying *was* a lonely sad thing. But that it also wasn't either/or and that there were a very few times when you have to face things alone.
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 18:07:54
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by JenStar on January 5, 2006, at 11:06:28
I'm not sure I'm as strong as people think I am. I'm not sure if it counts as strength if you have to be on relatively heavy duty medication to function. Even if the heavy duty medication enables you to function relatively well. You wouldn't want to see me right now without Risperdal.
I do talk to my therapist about it.
I just wish things could be different.
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 18:08:30
In reply to frustrating :-( (nm), posted by sleepygirl on January 5, 2006, at 3:57:16
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 18:14:59
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:11:21
I'm really sorry about your Dad, Alexandra. It does sound not dissimilar. When push comes to shove, I'm not even on his radar, prioritywise. His family and his own wellbeing is. And that makes sense.
And it's not just him. I've lost at least half my doctors. And all of the ones I've seen regularly. Although my psychiatrist says that he might at some point return. And he can manage my meds long distance till then.
It would be so easy to decide to rely only on myself, given the circumstances. If there's anything Katrina did, it was to show how ephemeral attachments can be.
My therapist says that T3's style and philosophy are very helpful for a number of types of clients. That it can be very empowering. But that in his opinion, it's not right for everyone.
I don't want to be that lonely.
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 22:01:51
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:11:21
> And he allowed you to not work on finding those needs fulfilled by yourself or by other people in your life.Plus...
There's a reason for that. At least a reason for the other people in my life part. And it's a good reason. But it's not a reason that people would easily understand. I think you might, and a few others, but not many people would. :(
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 22:13:32
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 18:14:59
i know things have been hard for you. and i know that is an understatement. things have been really really really really very very hard for you. and that you have been struggling. and that you have been taking a lot of medication to help yourself through.
but.
remember what happened? (don't dwell on it). my point is... given recent events... given the upheval in your life... ANYONE would be having a really very hard time of it. and that is not to undermine your pain or struggle at all. it is to attempt to go some way towards normalising it.
you are stronger than you think, dinah.
you are a rock...
you are very nearly as solid as dr-bob methinks...
even when sh*t was going on for you...
even when you stepped down from moderating...
if something happened...
you pulled through
and did what you needed to do
and thats not to say that inside... things weren't really very jolly hard.
but that is to say you are one hell of a lot stronger than you think.
i used to feel really very afraid for you.
for what you might do if something happened to your therapist
but things sorta did happen a little like that
and...
you pulled through.
not to say it wasn't really very very hard.
but you pulled through.
you are one hell of a lot stronger than you think.> When push comes to shove, I'm not even on his radar, prioritywise. His family and his own wellbeing is. And that makes sense.
yes. it makes sense...
but...
from your point of view...
it is going to hurt.
and it is understandable that it is going to hurt.
because you love him.
and you want him to be there
so you can feel good around him
safe and secure
forever.he might like you a whole bunch...
but he does not really love you.
but then
by the same token
you do not really love him either.
you love the way you feel sometimes
when you are around him
and to you that feeling...
arises magically from his presence
and cannot be obtained
except from a few very special people who pop up every now and then in your life
but i think...
i think...
that feeling arises 'magically' because...
he is totally focused on you
on validating your feeling
on doing everything he can to have you feel that special way
and that is what is
addictive
that keeps you going back
because you think you can only get that from him
and if he isn't around then you are afraid you will never feel that way again.
it keeps you going back
and i know you said he protested your attachment...
at times...
but it really does gotta feel kinda good for the ego when someone seems to love you the way you seem to love him
only it is not real love...
because...when he isn't able to validate you
when he isn't able to validate you totally
when things come up for him and he is unable to do that
then you don't feel connected
then you feel frustrated
then... you feel angrybecause... you think he has the power to make you feel better
if only he woulddinah
i really think you deserve better
than being so totally dependent on someone who is only going to leave you one day because...
that is life.
and it isn't choosing between him or going solely alone...
interdependence is best
but not dependence on one individual
and not dependence on oneself alone
interdependence with different people
with different aspects of the environment
about fostering those feelings in response to a variety of people
a variety of things
so if something happens to one
for a time or perminantly
then it is not the end of the world
or more importantly
it won't hurt so goddamned muchbecause...
you are stronger than you think
and i would really like to see you get better
and yeah it might be hard
but i think you can do itand i don't know that he is helping so much as encouraging you to remain dependent on him
and
that will only result in hurt
rage
pain
:-(
you deserve better> My therapist says that T3's style and philosophy are very helpful for a number of types of clients. That it can be very empowering. But that in his opinion, it's not right for everyone.
and that he would rather... you continue to see him...
take the power back...
thats what i think you need to do...because...
he can do what he likes really...
you are there...
waiting...
and i think that is something we inherit...
an ideal we inherit...
the devoted woman
but i think it lets the guy get away with one hell of a lot...
and it involves self sacrifice
for what?
furthering anothers interests?therapy is supposed to be about you...
but it isn't supposed to be about what you think you want... what you think you need...
it is supposed to be about helping you coaxing you cajoling you talking to you figuring out relatively objectively what would be best for you
so that you can function better with your relationships in the real world.
not so you can be magically fed these good feelings when your therapist is in the mood
nope.
> I don't want to be that lonely.its not about being lonely...
its about learning how to feel happy and connected and attached to a variety of people and a variety of things. i feel a wonderful sense of connection with a variety of people... with a variety of things... sometimes in response to nature... sometimes with myself... oftentimes with people off the boards... i need to get better at fostering that... i think... everybody does? but why foster that, why work towards fostering that if you believe you just need to be with your t to magically get that feeling?i don't know that he is helping you get better...
feel happier...
be a stronger person...i think he is fostering your sickness...
by keeping you dependent...i do.
fwiw...> My therapist believes that it's worth taking the risk to care about others, and to depend on others, even if you get hurt.
so that you need to continue to care about him?
i'm sure he does...
i think it is unwise to depend on one other person so much...
to give them the power to hurt you so very very very much... if something should happen to them.
i think someone who really cared about you would try and help you become interdependent with different people and different things so that if anything happened to them... you would hurt yes. but not hurt so very very much as you have.> That people are interdependent and that that's a good thing. That what she was saying *was* a lonely sad thing. But that it also wasn't either/or and that there were a very few times when you have to face things alone.
i think she is in to interdependence too...
the difference seems to me to be that no matter how much your therapist *says* he is into interdependence in practice, with his *actions* he seems to encourage you to be solely dependent on him...i don't think she wants you to face things alone...
i think she wants to help you figure out how to be interdependent with a variety of people / things...
ultimately...
harder work
but more helpful to you.because...
you jolly well can be a rock, dinah.
and i wish to god i had that.
i wish to god i could be like that.
but my personality...
makes that a little too variable
and rocks aren't supposed to fly out from under youand thats not to say that everything is okay on the inside...
but it is to say that you could lead a damned good life dinah
with lots of meaningful connections...
i just want something better for you is all.
sorry if i hurt :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 22:16:37
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 22:01:51
> > And he allowed you to not work on finding those needs fulfilled by yourself or by other people in your life.> There's a reason for that.
well i would love to hear that...
do you think i would understand?
because sometimes... i don't seem to understand :-( or i do understand but i don't agree :-( it can be hard to figure which it is at times...
it doesn't just have to be people...
and as for 'other people in your life'
one can have a moment of connection with a passing stranger...
not just your family
i didn't mean just thatjust in case you thought i did...
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 23:11:42
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 22:13:32
I know that some people here see me that way, Alexandra. Maybe not the people who've been around the longest. Because they've seen me be as far from a rock as possible.
But I'm not like Dr. Bob. Heck, I don't even know if Dr. Bob is Dr. Bob. For all I know he hides under the bed and shakes for a few hours before hitting the boards when things are rough. :)
But a lot of that is just appearance, Alexandra. And lots of therapy. It's true that I can walk away easier now rather than get all caught up in things. I used to cry and shake so bad that I could barely type. Heck, I couldn't type. My posts would come out gibberish. And that doesn't happen so much anymore. Part of that came from processing hundreds of babble upsets in therapy. Parts of it came from exposure therapy of a sort. And part of that is that I learned to walk away and fall apart elsewhere before coming back to the computer. And part of it is because there are a heck of a lot of expectations on "Dinah" to behave a certain way. wry smile.
I'm not a rock, Alexandra. I'm really not.
Sometimes I can put on a good show. Even IRL.
I don't think he encourages my dependence so much as he encourages me to keep doing what's working for me. And comparatively it does work for me. For various and sundry reasons. I think maybe he's sort of results oriented.
Now maybe other therapists would see it and say there are other paths to the same results that would be better for me in the long run.
Maybe.
But I'm not willing to give up on what I know works for me to try what might or might not work for me. Not when there may be no going back.
When it stops working for me, I'm willing to try new things. When it starts working for me again, and when the new things don't turn out so well, I return to what I know does work.
Do I really love him? Yes and no, I suppose. Partly I love who I make him to be in my mind. But partly I love the person he is, flaws and all. When he took the job that took him away I told him that I used to say that I loved him enough to want what's best for him as long as it didn't interfere with him being my therapist, but that when it came down to it I guessed I loved him enough to want what was best for him without reservation. Although that didn't mean I wouldn't be furious with him. And if he ceases to give me what I need, I might terminate with him, but that doesn't mean I won't always love him.
Depending on your definition of love, I suppose. :)
I'm awfully glad he's my therapist, not my husband. I don't want to spend my free time with him. But it's love of a sort.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 23:35:33
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 23:11:42
ah. i do of course make a distinction between dinah who posts as dinah, and dinah who posts as a moderator on this forum.
and dinah who posts as a moderator on this forum seems very much like a rock to me :-)
being a rock... doesn't mean that things aren't really very hard on the inside... being a rock doesn't mean that you can't go and shake in bed for a couple hours both before and after being a rock. being a rock just means being able to be a rock enough of the time when you need to be.
and when you need to be... you pull through. and that says nothing at all about how much you may or may not struggle as you are doing it. and how much you may or may not be able to function before and after doing it.
> But a lot of that is just appearance, Alexandra.
don't underestimate that. like i said... i couldn't do it. or... i can't do it yet. and i really don't think it would be realistic for me to envisage being able to do it any time in the near future.
> It's true that I can walk away easier now rather than get all caught up in things.
hmm. maybe acting like a rock... has ramifications for how one feels on the inside too? i really do think that there is some truth into the 'acting your way into feeling different' idea. it is not the cure. but it can be part of the cure. to do something regardless of how you are feeling on the inside... to do it... to find you have done it well... to take some pride in your achievement... to have a little more faith in ones own ability to pull through... to have a little more confidence so that next time... one shakes that little bit less. and over time in this way... but it is of course a hard road...
> I don't think he encourages my dependence so much as he encourages me to keep doing what's working for me. And comparatively it does work for me. For various and sundry reasons. I think maybe he's sort of results oriented.
okay.
a while ago now...
before all this sh*t went down in your life
(your father then new orleans)
you were getting to the point...
where you were really thinking...
that while you had progressed with your therapist
you perhaps hadn't made as much progress with him as you could have with another
or that at the very least you didn't seem to be making as much progress with him anymore as you thought you could be making with another therapistand you were talking about
and you were thinking about
whether it might be time to move onbut the thing that kept you there
(if i remember rightly)
was the good feelings you feel in his presence when he is 'on form'.
that was the thing that was keeping you there...
and then after your father passed on...you needed the feelings
and i have sympathy
i dobut since then...
you have shown that you are stronger than you think...
not to say it isn't really very hard...
but i don't think you *need* those feelings the way you think you do
and i don't think they (or something similar that is what you NEED to feel connected and happy) have to solely occur in his presence
and i think that the point that they do occur in his presence
stops you working towards developing that connection with other people
(people who you don't have to pay)
because yes it does come down to that too
getting those feelings from RECIPROCAL relationships
rather than from when you are able to pay someone to focus solely on you...and i think you CAN do this
i think you CAN learn to get a whole heap better at doing this
and i think you WILL find that a whole heap more rewarding and personally satisfying ultimately
i really really doyou don't need to buy it dinah.
of course... it will be different.
i think there is a sense of connection that people NEED
and some people are more interdependent than others
(which is to say they get that sense of connection with other people more than with communion with themself / aspects of the inanimate environment)and then...
there is something else...
that we don't NEED
though we might come to think we do...
and i think it is this latter thing that your therapist gives you...and that is helpful when it is used to facilitate people getting the first...
and that is unhelpful when it prevents people working on getting the first...
but i might just be raving...
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 23:49:35
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 23:35:33
Check your babblemail. :) I explained a bit more.
To tell the truth, I don't remember what happened before Daddy and before Katrina. I think I was getting a bit bored, and I think I was beginning to think I could do with once a week therapy. Or that I might want to augment my therapy a bit. Or that I might want him to challenge me a bit more. I think I may have expressed some admiration for those therapists who were more likely to make deep interpretations. But I don't ever remember ever seriously considering leaving him except when I was in a snit.
But then again, I called a repair company for the house the other day to find out when my appointment with them was, because I had forgotten to write it down. Turns out I had never made an appointment with them. :) My memory isn't what it once was. Perhaps it never was.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 7, 2006, at 0:02:08
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 23:49:35
ah.
i'm not scared at all :-)
i do enjoy talking to you :-)
we haven't had a chat in a while
(and you haven't said 'Alexandra' in that tone you get for a while now)
;-)
(though i'll try and avoid that one)
;-)
but must have food...
chat to you tomorrow
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on January 7, 2006, at 0:03:16
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel, posted by alexandra_k on January 7, 2006, at 0:02:08
ps
no, actually... i don't think you ever got to the point of saying you were going to leave...
it did seem to be more about transfering the attachment onto someone else...
possibly...
(my memory ain't up to much either)
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 10:07:18
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel, posted by alexandra_k on January 7, 2006, at 0:02:08
Do I have a tone? Goodness. :)
But where did I use it? Talking about my image? I gotta admit that's a bit of a burden sometimes. I can be a very bratty brat sometimes, and coming here is a bit like donning a nun's robes. :) I try to put that feeling aside, but it's hard.
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 10:09:24
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 10:07:18
Oh, I get it. I *haven't* used the tone. :)
Forgive me. I just woke up. (Yes, I know the time!)
Posted by 10derHeart on January 12, 2006, at 18:54:57
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel - Alexandra, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2006, at 10:09:24
...well, that's when I sit up and take notice ;-)
I adore reading your discussions.
Never stop....'kay?
Posted by Dinah on January 12, 2006, at 19:46:19
In reply to When that *A* in Alexandra gets capitalized....., posted by 10derHeart on January 12, 2006, at 18:54:57
This is the end of the thread.
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