Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 33. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 19:59:17
About what T3 said.
I think I don't like it one bit.
scowl.
I think it feels sad and lonely.
Posted by sleepygirl on January 4, 2006, at 20:09:07
In reply to I think I've decided how I feel, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 19:59:17
really Dinah? I read your previous T3 post
Any other thoughts on it?
Posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 20:42:07
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by sleepygirl on January 4, 2006, at 20:09:07
I think I might be angry, too.
That doesn't seem quite reasonable, though.
Posted by annierose on January 4, 2006, at 20:53:48
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » sleepygirl, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 20:42:07
Angry at who?
Posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 21:05:04
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by annierose on January 4, 2006, at 20:53:48
I think I'd rather be angry at T3, and I am.
But a bit at T1 as well, I suppose.
It was nice, what was. And I'm angry that it's in the past.
Posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 21:13:04
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » annierose, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 21:05:04
because Katrina isn't entirely to blame.
He could have told me he'd call back in a minute. And told his family that he had a patient in crisis, and he was sorry but this was his job. He needed to take a couple of minutes and talk to her.
He's made lots of choices that he blames on Katrina, but that he could have made differently if he had wanted to. He just didn't want to.
Posted by annierose on January 4, 2006, at 21:26:15
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 21:13:04
Anger is a funny emotion. It can swallow up your heart and soul, engulf you in its furry. Your T does want to help you now. I hope you can hold onto that and work with your anger in your sessions so you can break free of it.
I'm sad and worried for you.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:11:21
In reply to I think I've decided how I feel, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 19:59:17
I'm just picking up the conversation now after having read this thread and the one above...
(So if I'm way off I'm sorry)
> I know she can't play the same role as my therapist. She's a different sort of therapist, less warm more challenging.
I think I understand what you mean. But then... At this point... I'm not sure that you could have what you had (at some instances in time) with your old therapist... Because... Of the way things turned out there...
> I'm not sure that environment can provide me with the feeling of safety I need to really express myself emotionally.
I think... You are stronger than you think you are. I mean... It will be hard, don't get me wrong. And you might well have to figure out some signal for 'stop with the challenging and just validate me dammit'. But... You might learn how to express your self emotionally and express your needs and preferences in environments which are more... Well... More like the IRL relationships we encounter in our daily lives...
> She said the fact that he *did* leave, that he *did* abandon me, that I was let down when I relied on him was part of my history now, and that I couldn't undo that. That's why things could never go back to what they were, and that's why things *shouldn't* go back to what they were.
Yes.
And... That was bound to happen at some point.
That was why I was so concerned about how attached you were to your therapist.
Because I was worried about how you would cope were something like this to happen...
But it has happened...
And I appreciate that it has been really really really really hard for you...
But...
You are stronger than you think :-)
You are :-)> Hmmm... That sounded wrong. She didn't imply that he did anything bad or wrong in what he did. Just that the situation did lead to my effectively being abandoned.
Yeah... I remember having a similar conversation about my father...
> I think it feels sad and lonely.
> I think I might be angry, too.
> That doesn't seem quite reasonable, though.
Who said emotions had to be reasonable?
I think it is fairly understandable that you feel those things...
Because... I really do think that there was an ideal there. The ideal of someone who would be there... And who had the power... To have you feel okay and connected and safe... But... The danger is having that in response to one person... Is that no person is perfect. And no person can be there all the time. And so let down... Is inevitable. And painful yes. Like when I realised that my father wasn't coming back for me. That he didn't miss me. That he really didn't care about me particularly... (I'm not saying that that is how your therapist feels about you but I think it is similar...)And that hurt me so very much :-(
And... It took me a good 7 years to come to accept that... :-(That he wasn't there...
And I wouldn't feel those things with him around me anymore.
:-(I think... All children get that with one or other or both of their parents at some point...
Part of growing up...
But it can be so very painful...
> I think I'd rather be angry at T3, and I am.
Yes. It is a hard thing to have to face.
> But a bit at T1 as well, I suppose.
Yeah. I'd vaccilate between being a bit mad at my father for having left and feeling sad and alone but not angry - because I understood the urge to get away from my mother (like rationally you understand that it was a stressful time all round)
conflicting needs...
it is hard.
other people aren't supposed to have needs :-(
but of course...
they do
and thats not fair :-((((((Dinah)))))))
I think...
You really don't want to go through that again.
This t...
Sounds like she won't encourage your dependency quite the same...
But...
I really do think... That how you are feeling now... The difficulty you have had in not seeing your old t...
Well...
He fostered that
Because he allowed you to get so dependent
And he allowed you to not work on finding those needs fulfilled by yourself or by other people in your life.I don't think your new t would let that happen...
But it will be harder...
But...
Less hurt in the long run...
And maybe the time has come to work through some of those feelings...
Rather than seeking those feelings...
And indulging them...Which leads to this kind of hurt in the long run...
Posted by jammerlich on January 4, 2006, at 22:30:05
In reply to I think I've decided how I feel, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 19:59:17
> I think it feels sad and lonely.I think so too, Dinah. That's why I said before that, to me, it seemed the same as keeping your distance to avoid being hurt again. I find that distance to be sad and lonely, but often times very necessary. And I hate it, even when it's necessary. I want a place that's warm and cushiony and always absolutely safe, but I'm not so sure such a place even exists. Is hoping for it the same as hoping that money grew on trees? Futile?
And it makes sense that you feel angry. It's understandable, really it is. I'd be angry too. I AM angry. For you and for me. Can you tell him you feel angry? What about T3, can you tell her? That's assuming you even want to.
(((((Dinah)))))
Posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:41:41
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by jammerlich on January 4, 2006, at 22:30:05
> I want a place that's warm and cushiony and always absolutely safe, but I'm not so sure such a place even exists. Is hoping for it the same as hoping that money grew on trees? Futile?
Imagery...
I do believe...
One can learn to find that from within oneself...
To find that in company or communion with oneself...And to find brief moments of it in the company of strangers
And sunsets
And with the people in ones life that one does have some kind of a connection to
And yeah it is a bit different...
But I do believe...
It can fulfill that need
That driveBut mustering that is a skill...
And it has to be learned
And it requires practiceBut there is no incentive to learn or to practice
When it seems to magically occur in the presence of one other human being...
Posted by sleepygirl on January 5, 2006, at 3:57:16
In reply to I think I've decided how I feel, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 19:59:17
Posted by JenStar on January 5, 2006, at 11:06:28
In reply to I think I've decided how I feel, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 19:59:17
hi Dinah,
I think anger is a step up from the feelings of loss. Maybe it means you're working your way through the grief cycle? You had a really strong attachment to your T, and it's natural that it will take time to work through it.But like other posters said, you ARE strong, and you ARE capable, and you WILL be OK! :)
Would it help to talk to T3 about these emotions you're going through? Or T1?
Take care.
JenStar
Posted by Poet on January 5, 2006, at 18:33:20
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 21:13:04
Hi Dinah,
I'd feel angry that T1 may have used Hurricane Katrina as an excuse to stop seeing me and I assume his other patients. I'd be curious as to how he worked out therapy sessions with them, if he did.
I'd feel owed an explanation. I'd feel owed an apology. I'd feel owed assurance that I did nothing wrong.
((((Dinah))) I am so sorry that T1 has let you down like this. I know that T3 might not be the best T for you, but she does seem to understand what may have happened. Talk to her if you can. Vent to us.
Your anger needs an outlit. Don't hold it in because it'll turn against you and you don't deserve it's wrath.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 13:40:19
In reply to How I Would Feel, posted by Poet on January 5, 2006, at 18:33:20
I don't think I'll be seeing T3 again.
My therapist took a consulting job so that I couldn't see him for six weeks (and had only limited and unsatisfying email contact) in November, when not only Katrina but some personal family issues had me in crisis. But he's back now (well, about three hours away), and he comes down to town once a week and sees back to back clients for eight hours. Fortunately he schedules me to be the first one. :) I also go to where he is whenever I can for a second session. But I won't be able to do that for a some time because my latest work project involves being in contact with others, so I can't make up a day by working at night or on weekends. He says that he's moving back here this summer, but the basis of that seems iffy to me. He may be back, but he may not be too. I'll believe it when he tells me he's sold his house. Of course, I might be gone by then myself if my husband's job moves and he can't find another here. (which he probably can't)
It did upset me that he in effect deserted me for six weeks, with no assurance that he would be able to see me long term when he got back. (He says he told me he was coming back, and wasn't deserting me, and that he did come back. But that's not exactly what I remember he said.)
To my knowledge, he didn't contact any of his other clients until December, and only one other one than me tracked him down.
But...
There were ways in which he did what he could. He saw me at the house he was staying (not his house) in the casual clothes he had packed for the evacuation, a couple of times during the period we were all evacuated. I drove several hours to see him, but it was still above and beyond I guess to meet in a virtual stranger's living room.
That's why I know it's not entirely reasonable to be angry. It just hurts to get the reminder that you aren't anywhere near as high on the priority scale as they are.
Posted by happyflower on January 6, 2006, at 15:09:05
In reply to Re: How I Would Feel » Poet, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 13:40:19
Hi Dinah,
The fog had lifted my brain for a little bit, but your post kinda sound how I sort of feel. But your case is much more severe.
When I called my T this week, because I needed a session before next week, and he didn't call me back not only did I feel abandoned, but I felt he had enough of me. Now if he was a real friend, he would of wanted to talk to me without an appointment, without being paid, and would have made time for me. Sometimes reality really stinks. So feeling "left" makes me very angry, maybe it reminds me of my childhood or DH, and when I trusted my T , he left me too.
I get your anger, and I get why you want to avoid putting yourself into that position again. It seems like you like T3 but have doubts about her too, I wouldn't want to get myself attached either. But yet getting reattached to T1, after he "left" you probably doesn't feel good either, because what if he doesn't "come back". Being abandoned would really suck a second time. I would be worried about it too. Feeling attached sometimes feels good, but sometimes it is very scary when it might get taken away. It makes me think of foster children and how awful it must be for them. Well I offer you hugs ((((Dinah)))), I hope you can find strenght in yourself to allow yourself to trust one of them. (but I am saying do as I say, not as I do) I am still having trouble too in this area and maybe my mind is still cloudy, so I hope I don't offend in anyway..
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 17:58:05
In reply to Re: How I Would Feel, posted by happyflower on January 6, 2006, at 15:09:05
I'm trying to reattach to my therapist (T1). I just am ambivilant sometimes.
It's like the pain I feel when my dogs die. It hurts like anything, but I wouldn't want to give up the love and attachment just because it's going to hurt some day.
I know he doesn't care about me like I care about him. I know that's going to hurt me and anger me sometimes. I know that he or I could move, and I could get really really really hurt.
Ironically, if he hadn't bought a house three hours away, told me that he wasn't sure he could continue to be my therapist, and left for six weeks, I would have probably refused to move no matter what. No matter what the financial burden would be to my family. So maybe the rupture was for the best.
You know, I think if it weren't for this life changing event, he really would have done his best to give me forever therapy.
I mentioned it yesterday, and he said that he thought that on some level I did want that. I told him what do you mean some level? Of course I want that!
Sigh.
But of course that's more important to me than it is to him.
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 18:00:58
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by annierose on January 4, 2006, at 21:26:15
I'm ok. Thanks to medication maybe, but I'm ok.
I'm not always angry either. I'm really good at forgetting things I don't wish to remember. But T3's words brought it all back to me, which is probably one reason I was angry with her.
I do talk to my therapist about my anger from time to time. But he's reasonably good at forgetting what he doesn't want to hear too. :)
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 18:05:03
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by jammerlich on January 4, 2006, at 22:30:05
I don't think I'll be seeing T3 again, even if my therapist terminates me.
It *is* lonely. I talked to my therapist about it. His take was that different therapists have different world views. And that as much as they try to remain neutral, their world view does show through.
My therapist believes that it's worth taking the risk to care about others, and to depend on others, even if you get hurt. That people are interdependent and that that's a good thing. That what she was saying *was* a lonely sad thing. But that it also wasn't either/or and that there were a very few times when you have to face things alone.
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 18:07:54
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by JenStar on January 5, 2006, at 11:06:28
I'm not sure I'm as strong as people think I am. I'm not sure if it counts as strength if you have to be on relatively heavy duty medication to function. Even if the heavy duty medication enables you to function relatively well. You wouldn't want to see me right now without Risperdal.
I do talk to my therapist about it.
I just wish things could be different.
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 18:08:30
In reply to frustrating :-( (nm), posted by sleepygirl on January 5, 2006, at 3:57:16
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 18:14:59
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:11:21
I'm really sorry about your Dad, Alexandra. It does sound not dissimilar. When push comes to shove, I'm not even on his radar, prioritywise. His family and his own wellbeing is. And that makes sense.
And it's not just him. I've lost at least half my doctors. And all of the ones I've seen regularly. Although my psychiatrist says that he might at some point return. And he can manage my meds long distance till then.
It would be so easy to decide to rely only on myself, given the circumstances. If there's anything Katrina did, it was to show how ephemeral attachments can be.
My therapist says that T3's style and philosophy are very helpful for a number of types of clients. That it can be very empowering. But that in his opinion, it's not right for everyone.
I don't want to be that lonely.
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 22:01:51
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:11:21
> And he allowed you to not work on finding those needs fulfilled by yourself or by other people in your life.Plus...
There's a reason for that. At least a reason for the other people in my life part. And it's a good reason. But it's not a reason that people would easily understand. I think you might, and a few others, but not many people would. :(
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 22:13:32
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 18:14:59
i know things have been hard for you. and i know that is an understatement. things have been really really really really very very hard for you. and that you have been struggling. and that you have been taking a lot of medication to help yourself through.
but.
remember what happened? (don't dwell on it). my point is... given recent events... given the upheval in your life... ANYONE would be having a really very hard time of it. and that is not to undermine your pain or struggle at all. it is to attempt to go some way towards normalising it.
you are stronger than you think, dinah.
you are a rock...
you are very nearly as solid as dr-bob methinks...
even when sh*t was going on for you...
even when you stepped down from moderating...
if something happened...
you pulled through
and did what you needed to do
and thats not to say that inside... things weren't really very jolly hard.
but that is to say you are one hell of a lot stronger than you think.
i used to feel really very afraid for you.
for what you might do if something happened to your therapist
but things sorta did happen a little like that
and...
you pulled through.
not to say it wasn't really very very hard.
but you pulled through.
you are one hell of a lot stronger than you think.> When push comes to shove, I'm not even on his radar, prioritywise. His family and his own wellbeing is. And that makes sense.
yes. it makes sense...
but...
from your point of view...
it is going to hurt.
and it is understandable that it is going to hurt.
because you love him.
and you want him to be there
so you can feel good around him
safe and secure
forever.he might like you a whole bunch...
but he does not really love you.
but then
by the same token
you do not really love him either.
you love the way you feel sometimes
when you are around him
and to you that feeling...
arises magically from his presence
and cannot be obtained
except from a few very special people who pop up every now and then in your life
but i think...
i think...
that feeling arises 'magically' because...
he is totally focused on you
on validating your feeling
on doing everything he can to have you feel that special way
and that is what is
addictive
that keeps you going back
because you think you can only get that from him
and if he isn't around then you are afraid you will never feel that way again.
it keeps you going back
and i know you said he protested your attachment...
at times...
but it really does gotta feel kinda good for the ego when someone seems to love you the way you seem to love him
only it is not real love...
because...when he isn't able to validate you
when he isn't able to validate you totally
when things come up for him and he is unable to do that
then you don't feel connected
then you feel frustrated
then... you feel angrybecause... you think he has the power to make you feel better
if only he woulddinah
i really think you deserve better
than being so totally dependent on someone who is only going to leave you one day because...
that is life.
and it isn't choosing between him or going solely alone...
interdependence is best
but not dependence on one individual
and not dependence on oneself alone
interdependence with different people
with different aspects of the environment
about fostering those feelings in response to a variety of people
a variety of things
so if something happens to one
for a time or perminantly
then it is not the end of the world
or more importantly
it won't hurt so goddamned muchbecause...
you are stronger than you think
and i would really like to see you get better
and yeah it might be hard
but i think you can do itand i don't know that he is helping so much as encouraging you to remain dependent on him
and
that will only result in hurt
rage
pain
:-(
you deserve better> My therapist says that T3's style and philosophy are very helpful for a number of types of clients. That it can be very empowering. But that in his opinion, it's not right for everyone.
and that he would rather... you continue to see him...
take the power back...
thats what i think you need to do...because...
he can do what he likes really...
you are there...
waiting...
and i think that is something we inherit...
an ideal we inherit...
the devoted woman
but i think it lets the guy get away with one hell of a lot...
and it involves self sacrifice
for what?
furthering anothers interests?therapy is supposed to be about you...
but it isn't supposed to be about what you think you want... what you think you need...
it is supposed to be about helping you coaxing you cajoling you talking to you figuring out relatively objectively what would be best for you
so that you can function better with your relationships in the real world.
not so you can be magically fed these good feelings when your therapist is in the mood
nope.
> I don't want to be that lonely.its not about being lonely...
its about learning how to feel happy and connected and attached to a variety of people and a variety of things. i feel a wonderful sense of connection with a variety of people... with a variety of things... sometimes in response to nature... sometimes with myself... oftentimes with people off the boards... i need to get better at fostering that... i think... everybody does? but why foster that, why work towards fostering that if you believe you just need to be with your t to magically get that feeling?i don't know that he is helping you get better...
feel happier...
be a stronger person...i think he is fostering your sickness...
by keeping you dependent...i do.
fwiw...> My therapist believes that it's worth taking the risk to care about others, and to depend on others, even if you get hurt.
so that you need to continue to care about him?
i'm sure he does...
i think it is unwise to depend on one other person so much...
to give them the power to hurt you so very very very much... if something should happen to them.
i think someone who really cared about you would try and help you become interdependent with different people and different things so that if anything happened to them... you would hurt yes. but not hurt so very very much as you have.> That people are interdependent and that that's a good thing. That what she was saying *was* a lonely sad thing. But that it also wasn't either/or and that there were a very few times when you have to face things alone.
i think she is in to interdependence too...
the difference seems to me to be that no matter how much your therapist *says* he is into interdependence in practice, with his *actions* he seems to encourage you to be solely dependent on him...i don't think she wants you to face things alone...
i think she wants to help you figure out how to be interdependent with a variety of people / things...
ultimately...
harder work
but more helpful to you.because...
you jolly well can be a rock, dinah.
and i wish to god i had that.
i wish to god i could be like that.
but my personality...
makes that a little too variable
and rocks aren't supposed to fly out from under youand thats not to say that everything is okay on the inside...
but it is to say that you could lead a damned good life dinah
with lots of meaningful connections...
i just want something better for you is all.
sorry if i hurt :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 22:16:37
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 22:01:51
> > And he allowed you to not work on finding those needs fulfilled by yourself or by other people in your life.> There's a reason for that.
well i would love to hear that...
do you think i would understand?
because sometimes... i don't seem to understand :-( or i do understand but i don't agree :-( it can be hard to figure which it is at times...
it doesn't just have to be people...
and as for 'other people in your life'
one can have a moment of connection with a passing stranger...
not just your family
i didn't mean just thatjust in case you thought i did...
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2006, at 23:11:42
In reply to Re: I think I've decided how I feel » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 22:13:32
I know that some people here see me that way, Alexandra. Maybe not the people who've been around the longest. Because they've seen me be as far from a rock as possible.
But I'm not like Dr. Bob. Heck, I don't even know if Dr. Bob is Dr. Bob. For all I know he hides under the bed and shakes for a few hours before hitting the boards when things are rough. :)
But a lot of that is just appearance, Alexandra. And lots of therapy. It's true that I can walk away easier now rather than get all caught up in things. I used to cry and shake so bad that I could barely type. Heck, I couldn't type. My posts would come out gibberish. And that doesn't happen so much anymore. Part of that came from processing hundreds of babble upsets in therapy. Parts of it came from exposure therapy of a sort. And part of that is that I learned to walk away and fall apart elsewhere before coming back to the computer. And part of it is because there are a heck of a lot of expectations on "Dinah" to behave a certain way. wry smile.
I'm not a rock, Alexandra. I'm really not.
Sometimes I can put on a good show. Even IRL.
I don't think he encourages my dependence so much as he encourages me to keep doing what's working for me. And comparatively it does work for me. For various and sundry reasons. I think maybe he's sort of results oriented.
Now maybe other therapists would see it and say there are other paths to the same results that would be better for me in the long run.
Maybe.
But I'm not willing to give up on what I know works for me to try what might or might not work for me. Not when there may be no going back.
When it stops working for me, I'm willing to try new things. When it starts working for me again, and when the new things don't turn out so well, I return to what I know does work.
Do I really love him? Yes and no, I suppose. Partly I love who I make him to be in my mind. But partly I love the person he is, flaws and all. When he took the job that took him away I told him that I used to say that I loved him enough to want what's best for him as long as it didn't interfere with him being my therapist, but that when it came down to it I guessed I loved him enough to want what was best for him without reservation. Although that didn't mean I wouldn't be furious with him. And if he ceases to give me what I need, I might terminate with him, but that doesn't mean I won't always love him.
Depending on your definition of love, I suppose. :)
I'm awfully glad he's my therapist, not my husband. I don't want to spend my free time with him. But it's love of a sort.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.