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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by 10derHeart on March 3, 2005, at 16:56:19
In reply to missing my ex t, posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 13:29:04
I'm sorry, pinkeye. Dreams can be so powerful and it's the lingering on that really gets to me. Recurring, too? That might make me begin to dread going to sleep...yikes.
This may be a clumsy way to describe this, but your unconscious is maybe "at war" a bit with the more centered, confident, optimistic, giving pinkeye that I've detected in your recent posts. Maybe trying to drag you back somewhere...but I'm not quite getting a picture of why....unless something did happen lately?
Don't I recall you posting quite a bit - a while back - about this being such a persistent and painful fear - that he just didn't like you, but "had" to care for you in the ways he did? If I'm remembering close to right, posters reminded you of his actions speaking louder than anything -how much support he gave "above and beyond" and how that says everything about him liking you, despite that nagging, inner doubt. At least that's how I would roughly paraphrase what I recall.
I really, really feel for you on this. You know I do as I am still detaching VERY slowly from ex-T. 8 months post-termination. You and I share some awfully similar descriptions, feelings, and struggles, though at different points on a timeline. Wish I could make it hurt less. It's just hard period, I guess. Don't take this wrong, but your posts about it scared me and affirmed things for me, all at once. You understand the scary part, I think, 'cause you posted to me some wise things to expect, or look out for.
Wonderful blessings like T.s willing to treat each termination as unique to that person, and take a risk maintaining contact, can also be burdens, too. Like many other things in life. If only we could hang onto just the blessing part a little tighter, and release the sad, doubting other stuff. I am in the midst of it all myself.
Don't know what else to say right now. I wish that dream to go away for you. IMO, it simply represents your worst fears, not anything true or real. Wish I could talk to your unconscious - I'd tell it to stop that if there's no good purpose - enough is enough. ((pinkeye))
Posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 17:08:12
In reply to Re: missing my ex t » pinkeye, posted by 10derHeart on March 3, 2005, at 16:56:19
Thank you so much 10derHeart. I do remember the thread a while back where Dinah and Susan and others made me see things clearly.
And thanks for remembering that. You have written this very well and it is very comforting. Maybe it is just my worst fears. but somehow I want to grow up, not be hurt, to be there for myself and for others and I believed I was completely over it.. And poor guy, he didn't do absolutely anything wrong. You are right, if anything he went above and beyond to help me. But I still have that insecurity somehow.. that he did it just for duty..it is not going away and I am not able to come to peace with this thing.
Maybe time will heal more.. I wish this dream would stop. Why should I feel so very insecure I never understand..But it shooks me to the core.
Posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 17:11:57
In reply to Re: missing my ex t, posted by Susan47 on March 3, 2005, at 16:52:02
I feel sorry for you too Susan. Somehow you had a bad experience with your T, and I wish I could make that go away for you. Maybe if you connect deeply with this new T that you have, and be able to have a different outcome, you will heal a lot more. I wish the new person will take a lot of that hurt away from you.
I am hurt too - but mine is a different type of hurt. It comes from myself, not from him..
Posted by messadivoce on March 3, 2005, at 17:17:33
In reply to missing my ex t, posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 13:29:04
Pinkeye, I am sorry. I too have had dreams about my ex T and they really left me feeling shaken. It's frustrating, isn't it, to think you're doing "all better" and then suddenly you're back into the abyss. I keep telling myself that relaps are a part of the process...I hope you can remember that. Hang in there.
Posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 17:32:53
In reply to Re: missing my ex t » pinkeye, posted by messadivoce on March 3, 2005, at 17:17:33
thank you. it is very hard to let go of a T. I am realizing more and more everyday. It is very difficult to pick myself up and fill the emptiness by myself.
Posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 17:52:46
In reply to Re: missing my ex t, posted by Susan47 on March 3, 2005, at 16:52:02
your ex therapist is here right ? will you be able to go and meet him once more and explain the hurt that you are still going through? maybe kind of give him one more chance? and explain everything in detail? will that work?
I am hurt too, but I am not angry, and I know it is a much more soft hurt that I have. But you are struggling more than I do, and somehow I wish I could make that go away for you.
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2005, at 18:34:53
In reply to Re: missing my ex t » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 16:53:49
But on some level, a termination feels like abandonment. To everyone I think, and no matter what the circumstances. Logically you know that it had nothing to do with how he felt about you. But the very act of termination probably causes a very little part of all of us cry "What did I do to make Mom/Dad/Therapist leave????"
Posted by Susan47 on March 3, 2005, at 18:42:20
In reply to Re: missing my ex t » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 17:52:46
Right now I need the biggest hug you can imagine. Nothing can ever be the same for me again. I'm sorry.
Posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 18:45:07
In reply to Re: missing my ex t » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2005, at 18:34:53
> But on some level, a termination feels like abandonment. To everyone I think, and no matter what the circumstances. Logically you know that it had nothing to do with how he felt about you. But the very act of termination probably causes a very little part of all of us cry "What did I do to make Mom/Dad/Therapist leave????"
>
>
Yeah that is so very true. I do feel very abandoned. I feel I did everything right, yet he never liked me.it is very confusing. I was the one who initially told him I wanted to stop writing and keep only minimal contact. I was the one who told him that writing to him was taking a lot of emotional involvment for me. But now I feel abandoned.
Posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 18:47:17
In reply to Re: missing my ex t, posted by Susan47 on March 3, 2005, at 18:42:20
> Right now I need the biggest hug you can imagine. Nothing can ever be the same for me again. I'm sorry.
Here you have it - a big bear hug from me.
But I don't understand the second and third line of your post though. What do you mean by "Nothing can ever be the same for me again. I'm sorry". Why sorry?
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2005, at 18:48:33
In reply to Re: missing my ex t » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 18:45:07
Of course you do.
I think it's part of loss.
I know Daddy certainly didn't want to die, yet...
But just because you "feel" like he didn't like you, doesn't mean he didn't like you. Can you tell yourself that you feel that way, and it s*cks, and there are reasons you feel that way, but also keep in mind all the wonderful things he did that he wouldn't have done if he had disliked you.
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2005, at 18:49:38
In reply to Re: missing my ex t, posted by Susan47 on March 3, 2005, at 18:42:20
Perhaps not the biggest hug, but the biggest one the subject line would allow.
Posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 18:57:00
In reply to Re: missing my ex t » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2005, at 18:48:33
Yeah it is true. I just feel that way. Maybe it is a behaviour I picked up with my dad. He kept setting standards for me and asking me to achieve higher and higher, and I did all that. And I felt for a very long time, that my dad didn't approve of me howmuchever I did for him. And I did achieve a lot.. but somehow he kept asking me to go further and further. Whatever I did was never enough. Only after I cracked down completely and became depressed he stopped asking me to achieve futher. Even now, I feel he never unconditionally loves me.. I always had to earn it.
I remember when I first came to this country I used to feel so very bad with my pain, and I would feel so lonely and nobody to even talk to, and I would call up my father and cry my heart out, but my father will keep asking me to hang on and go on.
I sometimes feel like that now with my therapist.. I did everything he asked me to, yet he never approves of me, and doesn't like me. I know it is wrong to compare the two and my therapist was never like my dad, but somehow, that is what I feel.
Posted by Susan47 on March 3, 2005, at 19:04:56
In reply to ((((((((((((((((((((((((Susan))))))))))))))))))))) » Susan47, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2005, at 18:49:38
I saw him and he seems very very angry with me, although he denies it. I don't know if I'm imagining it or not. I've been delusional before, about lots of things. A LOT of things. That's what he knows about me, too. And I think he would use it to break me. Just now, sitting there at his counter and avoiding my gaze, asking me "Is there something I can do for you?" that told me just how delusional my thinking was, but I don't know, I could be being delusional about that as well. I wish there were a third person, an invisible eye, an observer, of everything that's gone on, so I'd know the truth. It hurts to think Pinkeye's dream could be true for me, the things I've seen in the relationship that point in that direction, many many things. I wish I weren't so full of self-loathing after seeing my reflection in his eyes, today. I wish I were never born.
Posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 19:10:48
In reply to Re: ((((((((((((((((((((((((Susan))))))))))))))))))))), posted by Susan47 on March 3, 2005, at 19:04:56
Maybe you should not read my posts for sometime. I am sorry it is bringing you so much hurt. I was trying to work on my own issues. If it is being a trigger for you, please don't read my posts.
Posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 19:50:54
In reply to Re: ((((((((((((((((((((((((Susan))))))))))))))))))))), posted by Susan47 on March 3, 2005, at 19:04:56
Posted by 10derHeart on March 3, 2005, at 20:00:31
In reply to Re: ((((((((((((((((((((((((Susan))))))))))))))))))))), posted by Susan47 on March 3, 2005, at 19:04:56
>> I wish I were never born.
Susan, dear heart, please don't do this.
I know this is harsh, but there are times for NOT validating some feelings, and it's only because I've SEEN (some of)your inner strength that I'm about to take this risk.....but STOP IT! Please!
You DO NOT wish you were never born!! And if you do, well, shoot, dang..what about those gorgeous children??!! I don't mean to go right for the guilt trip....but whatever it takes. Why I'm all fired up is - I KNOW you don't actually believe something like it's be better to not be born because of ANYTHING your ex-T. did, said, or how he looks! Please understand the spirit here. I've never posted like this before, but woman, someone is hurting my new, wonderful friend and I can't just watch that happen.
<deep breath> okay, okay. Get it out over on Writing. Curse back at me...but then you MUST forgive me afterwards because I couldn't bear it.... Send me a Babble mail and tell me to go to h*ll, please, I won't report it or anything, but I want you to do anything except sit and write words like "I wish I were never born." To me, that's more "offensive" than anything I've read in a long time. PLEASE understand my meaning. If you are feeling too low to defend your existence, lean on me, I'll do it for a while! But you can't wish to erase yourself.
NO, no. I wouldn't want you to allow me to post that unanswered, and I just can't allow you to do so. ALL posters here who talk with you (and no doubt those who just read) are very glad you were born....so does that make US wrong? No. You touch so many here all the time - it's wonderful to watch. Ex-T cannot take away your value on this Earth. He cannot.
(Being a praying person, I am now going to literally get on my knees and pray I did not just screw up and hurt you...)
Susan, please. Take that back. We love you.
Posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 20:51:23
In reply to Re: ((((((((((((((((((((((((Susan))))))))))))))))))))), posted by Susan47 on March 3, 2005, at 19:04:56
Susan,
Hang in there ok? I just prayed for you to my God. I promised him I will get something for him really nice and special if you are feeling better. We all like you so very much and I am pretty sure your ex T likes you too. He is probably incompetent. But I am sure he likes you. Trust me. Tomorrow you will be able to be completely recovered. Jsut hang in there for today.
If it would help, call your kids near you, or call your therapist.
I will pray for you.
Please take care.
Pinkeye.
Posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 21:14:43
In reply to Re: ((((((((((((((((((((((((Susan))))))))))))))))))))) » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 20:51:23
I am really scared for you. Will you let us know how you are? Please.
Posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 22:43:05
In reply to Susan - please post to us, posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 21:14:43
Susan, I am going to go home now. I stayed for couple of extra hours waiting for your reply and I can't stay any longer. Please do post to us as soon as you get a chance. ok? Hang in there.
Big hugs.
Pinkeye.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 3, 2005, at 23:28:53
In reply to Re: missing my ex t » pinkeye, posted by Susan47 on March 3, 2005, at 16:46:23
> Therapists just have so much power, they have a great deal of power over us because we're just so insecure.
Yes Susan, they do. That is why there are such strict ethical guidelines in place.
>When they leave us feeling bad about ourselves, as mine did and I suspect yours did on some level too, it's not a matter of us just being able to pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off.
I know hon. I have almost self-destructed twice now as a result of the way in which I was terminated. It hurts like hell. Sometimes I think they can't understand that. Not really. Because if they did understand then they wouldn't do it. Otherwise they are just the most cruel sadistic bastards on the face of the earth.
>And it makes me angry and upset to think that's what my therapist did to me, because I wasn't able to vocalize my inability to fight for therapy, to fight for what I needed to get from him, in any other way than a roundabout method, and he did not get the message, he just did not understand.
Maybe he felt severely out of his depth Susan. I don't know. I emailed the last therapist who terminated me and went off at her. I was going round and round in circles HOW COULD SHE DO THIS TO ME? DIDN'T SHE REALISE HOW IMPORTANT SHE WAS TO ME? DIDN'T SHE REALISE THAT I F*CKING WELL STAYED ALIVE BECAUSE OF HER? etc etc. She wrote back saying that she didn't know what to do with me. That she had burned herself out trying to help me and worrying about me. That she had gotten sick herself.
My anger vanished and my despair set in.
Horrible.
Horrible.> I get so angry with him, his dishonesty and his inability in telling me how to back off without hurting me ..
It sounds like he really did feel out of his depth Susan.
>but I love him, too, and don't get mad at me for saying that, but I do, I love him and I want to protect him because I don't believe he meant to hurt me. I believe he was a good person but I don't know, maybe he isn't as mentally healthy as I thought he was.
Thats okay Susan. I think he probably is a really good person - but he is a human being. And human beings are fallible. They have their own limitations and weaknesses. You don't have to be mad at him (but it is okay if you are sometimes).
I idealised my therapist rather... But it was an unrealistic idealisation that no human being could live up to. I worried that if I acknowledged her weaknesses that it would mean that she was unable to help me. And if she was unable to help me then nobody else could either. And so things would never get better for me. But none of that follows Susan. None of it.
> I do know definitely from what he said to me, that he sees people like me as being somehow deficient, or lacking. Less than. Timothy Findley says this in his play Stillborn Lover, "You've just revealed a prejudice you didn't know you had". I wonder how many T's and Psych's have that prejudice.
It is their weakness. They should say 'I feel like you need more than I can give'. Linehan talks about this specifically. About some therapists can feel like their clients have this immense hole inside them that nothing can fill. About how the therapist can sometimes feel like no matter how much they pour into it it never makes any difference.
She reframes it in terms of how close we need to feel to people. It just reflects that the client needs to feel closer and more connected to the therapist. That therapists who require more distance in their personal interactions can interpret their clients as being forever needy. But that they are sustaining those behaviours by not being able to move closer.
That some therapists can be unaware of this.
And other therapists may be aware of it but unable to move closer because of their own need for space.Well, thats how I remember it anyway...
Hang in there Susan.
You are a wonderful person.
Things will get better.
You are trying to deal with a whole bunch of really hard stuff right now.((((Susan)))))
Posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 0:23:13
In reply to Re: Susan - please post to us, posted by pinkeye on March 3, 2005, at 22:43:05
Oh no, oh no Pinkeye, please don't stay over for me okay, not again? I promise I won't hurt myself. I'm just very sad, thank you so much for all your kindness to me.
Posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 1:11:20
In reply to SUSAN! » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on March 3, 2005, at 20:00:31
Oh god, 10derheart, please don't feel bad!
You're a person I can call a friend. I don't know where I'd be right now if I didn't have you and everyone else here. My ex-T cannot take away my value here on earth? So why does he keep trying to do that? Why does he look at me so coldly, why won't he tell me he failed not because of me, but because of him? Why won't he admit to me that he couldn't help me, why won't he tell me he's sorry for hurting ME? Why am I the only one apologizing?????
I can understand why, so many times, I felt so much antipathy towards him. But he won't. He's cold, correct, focussed. Efficient.
Posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 1:16:29
In reply to Re: missing my ex t » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on March 3, 2005, at 23:28:53
you understand, don't you. But I think maybe some therapists are what you said, they're cruel sadistic bastards. And some aren't but really act that way because they're frightened, and it hurts to know I brought out the worst in another human being, because I didn't know how to communicate properly. Even today, the man thinks I'm still looking to him for therapy. He doesn't understand a woman's heart, and I'm sad about that. I can't change any of that. He'll have to live with himself. I suppose I'm happy I don't have to. I think I might be beginning to understand why his wife seems cold and insecure herself.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 4, 2005, at 5:46:32
In reply to Re: missing my ex t » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 1:16:29
>And it makes me angry and upset to think that's what my therapist did to me, because I wasn't able to vocalize my inability to fight for therapy, to fight for what I needed to get from him, in any other way than a roundabout method, and he did not get the message, he just did not understand.
Maybe he did understand but it was more than he could deliver.
>My ex-T cannot take away my value here on earth? So why does he keep trying to do that? Why does he look at me so coldly,
I think sometimes they do because they are emotionally distancing themself from the situation. I don't know what effect that is supposed to have on us... I think maybe we are supposed to respond in kind. I don't think he is intending to do it to be hurtful, he is probably trying to encourage you to move on BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT HURT ANY LESS. I know that too... But after termination our needs aren't really the point any more. And that is most painful of all. To watch someone withdraw and there is nothing you can do. But I don't think he intends to be hurtful.
>why won't he tell me he failed not because of me, but because of him? Why won't he admit to me that he couldn't help me, why won't he tell me he's sorry for hurting ME?
I could say something about the male ego...
But I have had female clinicians do this too...
Have had them conclude that nobody could help me (just because they didn't know how). That was the hardest thing of all. I thought that was an incredibly hateful thing to do. Instead of realising their own limitations they blamed me. Condemned me so that nobody else would work with me either. Stabotaged future therapists from working with me. Now I just conclude that it is ignorance. They are oblivious. They are people. And I guess most people are pretty insecure when it comes down to it. Maybe he felt helpless with you Susan. Unable to take away your pain. Maybe he didn't like that at all. I think it takes a fairly exceptional person to be able to admit their own failings and recognise their own deficiencies. You deserve better.> And some aren't but really act that way because they're frightened,
Yes.
>and it hurts to know I brought out the worst in another human being,
His weakness Susan
His limitations
His issue.
You are capable of bringing out the worst
But you are equally capable of bringing out the best
I think you are really special Susan.
And you deserve a really special therapist.
Someone more secure in themself.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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