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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2005, at 15:26:15
Okay, today's session was fairly disjointed, but what my T managed to put together from all the pieces was that I seem to have an intense fear of aggressive and sexual urges. Think thanatos and hmm, what was that other drive? Sex and death.
I actually could feel myself being blocked today when it came to something related to aggression. I just kind of stared into space thinking nothing and trying not to feel. I told him this, and he could tell, too.
I suspect it might be related, at least in part, to feeling like "good girls" don't have these feelings. But I'm really clueless, because for the aggression part, I really can't even conceive of me being aggressive or attacking someone forcefully. I can't even picture it. I can't imagine how it would feel other than completely foreign to me. Major block. And it's not that I think I *should* develop the ability to go out and attack folks, but I think you get the issue. I know from experience I tend to be a "freezer" when it comes to threats. I don't like that about myself, but I know it to be true of me.
Anyone else have issues with this? Thoughts? Comments? Questions? Complaints? (oops, got carried away).
Thanks,
gg
Posted by TamaraJ on February 16, 2005, at 16:06:15
In reply to Freud anyone?, posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2005, at 15:26:15
I have the same feelings as you. On the issue of aggression, I have an intense fear of aggressive behaviour, and go to great lengths to avoid situations where confrontation is taking place or which may lead to raised voices and aggressive behaviour. I am not so much afraid of whether I will become aggressive (because I never have), but rather whether others will. In those situations, I have to retreat because I often end up feeling physically ill. And, instead of *asserting* myself in such situations, I tend to become shaken and emotional, and unable to defend my views or feelings. I guess I see aggression as anger out of control (who knows). And, although anger can be a normal emotion and a normal reaction to certain situations as well as a motivator at times (think of when we are angered at an injustice that has been done and the action being taken as a result of that anger to correct the injustice), when it consumes a person then there is absolutely no chance that it can be productive. The problem is, I guess, like you said: we have been conditioned to believe that it is bad. So, some people internalize until it becomes like a volcano ready to erupt, which, again for me at least, just intensifies the anger and leads to aggressive thoughts and an undeniable sense that it is so wrong to feel this way. It's a vicious cycle at times.
I don't know about you, but I guess I worry that being aggressive means that I am no longer in control - that I have lost control - of myself and the situation. And, aggression has such a negative connotation. I guess what people should be striving for is that delicate balance between being assertive and being gentle. But, even being assertive in certain situations is somewhat foreign to me.
I have rambled - sorry - and probably haven't made any sense at all.
> Okay, today's session was fairly disjointed, but what my T managed to put together from all the pieces was that I seem to have an intense fear of aggressive and sexual urges. Think thanatos and hmm, what was that other drive? Sex and death.
>
> I actually could feel myself being blocked today when it came to something related to aggression. I just kind of stared into space thinking nothing and trying not to feel. I told him this, and he could tell, too.
>
> I suspect it might be related, at least in part, to feeling like "good girls" don't have these feelings. But I'm really clueless, because for the aggression part, I really can't even conceive of me being aggressive or attacking someone forcefully. I can't even picture it. I can't imagine how it would feel other than completely foreign to me. Major block. And it's not that I think I *should* develop the ability to go out and attack folks, but I think you get the issue. I know from experience I tend to be a "freezer" when it comes to threats. I don't like that about myself, but I know it to be true of me.
>
> Anyone else have issues with this? Thoughts? Comments? Questions? Complaints? (oops, got carried away).
>
> Thanks,
> gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2005, at 22:21:06
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by TamaraJ on February 16, 2005, at 16:06:15
I think you made a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm still kind of processing this, so I'll get back to you.
gg
Posted by TamaraJ on February 16, 2005, at 22:30:07
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » TamaraJ, posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2005, at 22:21:06
Sorry to be a pest, but I just wanted to add one thing to my ramblings. I think my internal feelings of aggression and agressive thoughts are, most times, due to my inability to assert myself when it is appropriate to do so. I don't know how to explain it, except to say that I know I should speak up in some situations and defend myself or my views or opinions, but I internalize to avoid the risk of offending or alienating someone.
Tamara
Posted by daisym on February 16, 2005, at 23:10:53
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by TamaraJ on February 16, 2005, at 22:30:07
We've spent some time on anger and aggressive urges. I can barely tolerate the discussions. I shut down, like you described. My therapist pushed the subject once, telling me that I let my husband hold "all" the anger and I refused to feel any of it. He said this isn't uncommon for people who have had bad experiences with angry people. His opinion was that I was afraid of my aggressive feelings because I was afraid they would get out of control and hurt someone (him?).
This is a very hard subject for me to think about. It isn't that I don't get angry, I just get flash anger and then it is gone. And I always feel bad. I used to say "anger is a waste of energy - it solves nothing." Of course my therapist's response is, "it is a legitimate feeling, not everything has to have a productive use -- does it?"
Ummm...doesn't it?
So, have you been able to figure out why this was so hard for you?
Posted by alexandra_k on February 16, 2005, at 23:18:27
In reply to Freud anyone?, posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2005, at 15:26:15
I don't like anger either. Only seen it in a destructive sense, that was what made people lash out at me. But not all anger is like that (apparantly). But I still don't like it anyways.
Are you more passive-agressive???
Do you get that at all?
Sarcasm and snide comments when you are angry with someone?
I just say that because that is the way I go sometimes. It was a bit of a suprise to me to learn that they count as 'anger' too.
And annoyance is on the anger spectrum and so forth.But avoidance is good too :-)
But not forever, I suppose
Not forever...
Posted by alexandra_k on February 16, 2005, at 23:21:53
In reply to Freud anyone?, posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2005, at 15:26:15
Posted by TamaraJ on February 16, 2005, at 23:24:34
In reply to Re: Freud anyone?, posted by daisym on February 16, 2005, at 23:10:53
If I really think about it, I realize that it comes from the fear and anxiety I would experience when my father would go into a rage. So, as long as I don't say or do anything to upset anyone, everything remains peaceful.
Tamara
> We've spent some time on anger and aggressive urges. I can barely tolerate the discussions. I shut down, like you described. My therapist pushed the subject once, telling me that I let my husband hold "all" the anger and I refused to feel any of it. He said this isn't uncommon for people who have had bad experiences with angry people. His opinion was that I was afraid of my aggressive feelings because I was afraid they would get out of control and hurt someone (him?).
>
> This is a very hard subject for me to think about. It isn't that I don't get angry, I just get flash anger and then it is gone. And I always feel bad. I used to say "anger is a waste of energy - it solves nothing." Of course my therapist's response is, "it is a legitimate feeling, not everything has to have a productive use -- does it?"
>
> Ummm...doesn't it?
>
>
> So, have you been able to figure out why this was so hard for you?
Posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:08:59
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » daisym, posted by TamaraJ on February 16, 2005, at 23:24:34
I know this is why I have such issues with anger too. My dad used to explode over such little things and it was always a moving target. And then he would feel bad and be sorry...and that was worse.
I hate the whole cycle. It makes me nervous.
The most awful parts of my husband's illness are the medications that make him volatile and his anger and bitterness at being sick. A bad combination.
I've been asking a lot lately, "How did I find myself in this situation again." I don't have the answer yet.
Posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:11:51
In reply to Freud anyone?, posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2005, at 15:26:15
I want to ask, you don't have to answer...
Have you thought about anger and sex together? Are your aggressive feelings connected to any sexual feelings - either wanting it or not wanting it?
I guess I have a hard time with all primal emotions.
Posted by TamaraJ on February 17, 2005, at 0:20:40
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » TamaraJ, posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:08:59
> I know this is why I have such issues with anger too. My dad used to explode over such little things and it was always a moving target.
-- My dad was the exact same. Even my mom mentioning that the windows needed to be washed (not asking him to do it) at the dinner table, would set him off.
And then he would feel bad and be sorry...and that was worse.
-- It was rare that my father said he was sorry or displayed any remorse.
>
> I hate the whole cycle. It makes me nervous.-- Same here. There is no need for it.
> The most awful parts of my husband's illness are the medications that make him volatile and his anger and bitterness at being sick. A bad combination.
-- My heart goes out to you. I mean, it's hard enough to deal with volatile behaviour when all is right, or seems right, with our own worlds.
> I've been asking a lot lately, "How did I find myself in this situation again." I don't have the answer yet.-- Those answers are hard to come by sometimes. But, I think, the answers do come to us eventually - when we are ready.
Tamara
Posted by alexandra_k on February 17, 2005, at 0:23:59
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:11:51
I get the flashes of anger - and then it is gone. I can do annoyance and the whole passive-agressive thing (which doesn't feel like anger) but I am frightened of the flashes and the intense feeling. Afraid I'll lose control like my Mother used to. I guess I used to inhibit my emotions / preferences as much as possible because it was when these differed from hers that she would fly off the handle. So I guess I am a bit phobic of the strong emotions in general.
Are they both about being afraid of losing control?
Posted by whirlpool on February 17, 2005, at 11:31:06
In reply to Freud anyone?, posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2005, at 15:26:15
Gardenergirl-
I think that the more suppressed aggression one has, the harder it is to express any kind of aggression, due to the fear of losing control.
This may also be the case for people who are born with stronger drives to begin with.
Just my opinion.
Whirl.
Posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 11:33:36
In reply to Re: Freud anyone?, posted by alexandra_k on February 17, 2005, at 0:23:59
here's a scary one for you guys... maybe you can help me...
I used to flee from all types of confrontation right down to only asking for a raise ONCE in the last 19 years that I've been working fulltime (and that one time I cried- how embarrassing).
My father used to hit me anytime I disagreed with him- even if the topic was brought as a debate. It started when I was 10. Since then, I learned not to have my own opinions (I STILL haven't found a hobby other than reading- which, let's face it, is just sitting quietly, saying nothing) with any males. I debated freely with females- and they think I do it too much, probably because they are an "outlet" at this point.
So enter therapy... I learn that I MUST have my own opinions, find my own hobbies, stick up for myself because my "self" is just as important as the other person's "self". I am practicing this.
So my SO and I debate. The big problem is that when he debates, he is big on pointing his finger in my face and leaning in real close to my face (classic intimidation tactics). It has gotten so bad a couple of times that I have completely freaked out. The first time I ran and hid upstairs behind a locked door. The second time, though, I was lying on the couch and he came up on me while I was supine and got in my face. I asked him to back up, my hands were palms forward, then PUSHING him away, then when he didn't stop, I ended up kicking out at him as he advanced.So now I have "learned to defend myself", but he considered himself to be attacked because I was the only one that actually struck a blow!
We have talked about it since, and decided on a code word to use to let him know that I am scared, not "trying to win the argument". But he is only one person. How do I deal with the rest of the world now???? In trying to cure myself of fear of confrontation, I am now a physical attacker myself? How the heck did this happen? I don't want to be that person!
(Brought up a can of worms, hunh, gg???!!!???)
thanks for listening at least,
sunny10
Posted by Susan47 on February 17, 2005, at 12:14:25
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by whirlpool on February 17, 2005, at 11:31:06
That makes a lot of sense. I wonder if it's true.
Posted by Susan47 on February 17, 2005, at 12:22:11
In reply to Re: Freud anyone?, posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 11:33:36
And here I thought you had this wonderful SO, and I suppose you do, but it sounds like you're with someone who pretty much was doing the same thing your father did to you; he's doing it in another form. Sunny kicking out at him was your last resort, don't you see that? He should not be making you feel guilty or bad for that. He should be looking at what he did that brought you to that point because it sounds like you're not normally like that. I hope he's changing his behaviour and the code is working. You're not "that person". ((Sunny))
Posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 12:38:44
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » sunny10, posted by Susan47 on February 17, 2005, at 12:22:11
actually, he's a great SO BECAUSE he admits to having been just as responsible as I in the final analyis, thus the code word! And the code word should only need to be used when he forgets that he is working on not being intimidating in the first place!
I have come to the conclusion that no one is PERFECT. The closest any of us can come to perfection is TRYING to the the best person we can be.
We make a good couple BECAUSE we are working on our own issues and freely admit it and try to help the other person.
But, as I said, he is only one person- I am a little afraid of what I might do if someone else frightens me...
Posted by alexandra_k on February 18, 2005, at 2:26:44
In reply to Freud anyone?, posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2005, at 15:26:15
How are you doing???
You okay???
Posted by gardenergirl on February 18, 2005, at 7:56:29
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by alexandra_k on February 18, 2005, at 2:26:44
I've been much busier at work the last few days, and I am making a conscious effort to spend time with my husband in the evenings rather than have us be in separate areas of the house. So I have not had as much time online.
I appreciate all your thoughts and replies. I've got stuff to say...lots, actually. I should have more time this weekend to catch up on posts.
Thanks for asking, alexandra.
Take care everyone. Be back soon.
gg
Posted by TamaraJ on February 18, 2005, at 15:29:28
In reply to Re: Freud anyone?, posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 11:33:36
> here's a scary one for you guys... maybe you can help me...
>
> I used to flee from all types of confrontation right down to only asking for a raise ONCE in the last 19 years that I've been working fulltime (and that one time I cried- how embarrassing).-- Oh my God. I can so relate to that! I have worked in the same place for years, have a great, fair and understanding boss, and I am always nervous (almost petrified) to ask for a day off. I just get panicky inside going in and asking for something for myself. And, forget about boundaries. Even when I do get time off, the office calls me and calls me and calls me. And, I don't speak up. Yet, I encourage my staff to be open about their needs, wants and pet peeves. Oh well. Maybe I'll learn one day.
Tamara
Posted by alexandra_k on February 18, 2005, at 16:00:40
In reply to Sorry everyone » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on February 18, 2005, at 7:56:29
Just wanted to check that you are okay.
Glad you are :-)
Posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 9:56:20
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by TamaraJ on February 16, 2005, at 16:06:15
> I have the same feelings as you. On the issue of aggression, I have an intense fear of aggressive behaviour, and go to great lengths to avoid situations where confrontation is taking place or which may lead to raised voices and aggressive behaviour.
Oh, me too. I hate conflict. Even when I know I am right, I have a hard time being assertive and confronting it directly. I tend to do nothing, or use humor to deflect. And then of course I feel resentment because I don't get what I need. Grrrr.
>I am not so much afraid of whether I will become aggressive (because I never have), but rather whether others will.
You know, this reminds me of a situation when a student in a class I was teaching became quite confrontational (right in my face yelling) in front of the whole class. I actually handled it pretty calmly and stayed focused on his behavior. But it was very scary. In thinking about how I managed to handle that but have so much trouble in other situations, I think it's because I really didn't care if he liked me or not. He was clearly in the wrong, and was just trying to push my buttons. But he was a HUGE biker type guy! yikes!
I think that I worry about being aggressive or even assertive because I worry about how others will respond and what they will think of me. What others will think is an issue that keeps coming back up. I think it's because my dad was so socially conscious. And good children, especially "good little girls" do not "misbehave".
Thanks for stimulating my thinking on this. I feel less blocked.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 9:59:15
In reply to Re: Freud anyone?, posted by daisym on February 16, 2005, at 23:10:53
Daisy,
I don't get flash anger. I think I tend to steam for awhile, and if I talk to others about it, it often makes it continue rather than burn out. It's still a hard topic for me, but I am thinking about the "good girl" issue, and maybe it just doesn't feel proper for me to be assertive and express anger directly. And of course there's the wanting people not to be upset with me. Because if they are, I tend to take that too personally versus look at their issues or perhaps look at just my behavior that may have caused it versus my "being".Still confused, though. Ugghers.
Thanks for your thoughts.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 10:00:55
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by alexandra_k on February 16, 2005, at 23:18:27
Oh lordy do I ever get passive-aggressive. You hit it on the head. I am much more likely to be indirect than direct. It gives me some sense of satisfaction, but I suppose like anything avoided, it's a short term solution with long term consequences.
And thanks for the eros reminder. Funny how I could not remember that at all. Seems so simple now. Hmmm
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 10:08:03
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:11:51
That's a very good question. In the session, the two were connected. Actually, it made me cringe some of the connections my T made. (ewwwww kinda feeling). I have trouble with primal emotions, too. But I never used to have trouble about sex. I actually once had a very healthy sex life with an ex. That gg seems to have gone into hiding or disappeared entirely. When my T asked what happened, of course I remembered (I never forget, but I never think about unless asked) being date-raped. And then going into a bit of a tail spin afterwards. It's a time in my life that I feel ashamed about, but if I look at it objectively, it makes a lot of sense why. But the feeling is stronger than the rational approach. (Damn feelings!).
So anyway, we were talking in the session about my fear about aggressive acts and I mentioned "intruders" to my home. Um, you can make some connections there to more personal intrusions. And given that for a number of mechanical reasons, sex is initially painful for me (wish I hadn't skipped the thread about that earlier)...well I seem to think of sex as an intrusion, or (gasp) even a very personal violation. UGH! I really really hate that I think that way now. It's so not how I used to be. And it means there is quite a lot of baggage in the bed with me.
sigh, I think it's moving up higher on the list of issues to address, though
gg
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