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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by pegasus on February 15, 2005, at 12:04:40
In reply to A Bombshell, posted by messadivoce on February 14, 2005, at 23:58:31
Yikes! That's about the worse termination story I've heard so far. I wonder if that type of "reorganizing" of a counseling center is even legal, considering the ethical obligation of therapists to not abandon their clients. Obviously your T is concerned about you, which must feel good. But . . . oh my . . . I don't even know where to begin. I just ache for you. You have every right to be devastated. Is there any chance you might be able to channel some of it toward communicating with the counseling center, to let them know how this is affecting you? And maybe remind them of the ethical obligations of therapists? This is really quite outrageous treatment of a set of clients. Callous . . . even cruel.
I hope you're doing ok. Please keep posting, and let us know how you're handling it. You have all of my sympathy and support.
pegasus
Posted by B2chica on February 15, 2005, at 13:44:18
In reply to A Bombshell, posted by messadivoce on February 14, 2005, at 23:58:31
(((((((((((voce))))))))))))
So sorry for this loss. i can't say anything other than what has been said already....is she going into private practice?? that would be great.-but i am stunned that they cut her off so quickly...in this field especially, wouldn't they consider this a traumatic event being so abruptly taken away? not allowing 'closure'?
But think...what a great one she is that she called you. she cares.
hang in there.
sorry you had to go through this.b2c.
Posted by pinkeye on February 15, 2005, at 14:08:09
In reply to A Bombshell, posted by messadivoce on February 14, 2005, at 23:58:31
Oh I am really sorry for this. It is so bad and I know it must hurt like hell. Good that atleats your T is sensible enough to let you call her or email her. Leaving a T is just about one of the worst things that can happen and if it is so drastic is even worse. I am really sorry that this happened.
But do hang in there, atleast know that your T is not responsible for this mess. She has been extremely responsible. That way you are fortunate. Maybe you can meet her for a coffee or something and do a proper termination or ask to use her email/phone call support while you find a new one and bond with her. I am sure she will agree - she seems quite good.
Posted by messadivoce on February 15, 2005, at 14:39:58
In reply to A Bombshell, posted by messadivoce on February 14, 2005, at 23:58:31
I decided to call the health center and try to talk to someone--I wasn't going to wait for them to call me. I spoke with the lady who was brought in to supervise this change, and she was very nice. She told me that this sudden decision was the end of a 2 year process that suddenly came to an end. She made it sound like my T had the option of staying and providing therapy, but that doesn't sound like what my T told me on the phone yesterday. I was able to be reasonable to her b/c she was NOT the one who made this decision.
Apparently this was very unexpected for everyone, and beyond that the details are fuzzy. She promised to contact me later today or tomorrow when she knows more.
So who's giving me the real story here? Could my T have stayed, and if so, why didn't she? I would tend to trust her more, but right now I just don't know. I'm trying not to freak out until I get more details, but I just can't stop crying.
I don't want to end up caught in the middle--between student life or human resources, and my T, who I trust more than this bureaucratic mess. I want to be loyal to my T, but at the same time, I need to know why she left.
I'm trying to go to work, to class, to keep myself together. I went to work this morning, but I felt so terrible I had to leave. I slept for awhile. I just feel so sick, so weary, so incredibly heartsore. This feels so much worse than when I lost my first T. I had time to grieve with and for him, to talk about it. This time I don't even have that.
I have 90 minutes to pull myself together and eat lunch before my next class. Thank you all so much for your support. You guys have been truly phenominal. Thank you.
Posted by pinkeye on February 15, 2005, at 14:50:51
In reply to An Update, posted by messadivoce on February 15, 2005, at 14:39:58
I am really sorry for all this thing that you have to go through. For now, just don't even try to think about it. I am sure you will find a way to get closure on this a little later and will be able to come to accept whatever happened. And you will be able to find a new T and bond with the new person. Just hang int here for now.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 15, 2005, at 14:56:53
In reply to Re: An Update, posted by pinkeye on February 15, 2005, at 14:50:51
Oh my, this situation is a nightmare. I'm so so sorry you are going through this. I'm also glad your T called you to tell you personally. I'm wondering if perhaps she was invited to stay as a staff therapist, but not as the director. Wasn't she the head of the department? I could be mistaken. That may be why she isn't staying. It would be difficult to suddenly be demoted and work for someone else.
At any rate, I'm glad you called. More power to you for being proactive. You must have some inner strength there. Use it and nurture it. That, your support system and Babble will get you through. We're here for you.
Hugs if okay.
Take extra gentle care.
gg
Posted by Shortelise on February 15, 2005, at 15:06:19
In reply to A Bombshell, posted by messadivoce on February 14, 2005, at 23:58:31
Voce, I hate that this has happened. I am so sorry.
ShortE
Posted by Speaker on February 15, 2005, at 15:37:07
In reply to Re: A Bombshell » messadivoce, posted by Shortelise on February 15, 2005, at 15:06:19
Posted by Dinah on February 15, 2005, at 17:38:07
In reply to An Update, posted by messadivoce on February 15, 2005, at 14:39:58
It's a rotten situation, and I'm sorry it had to affect your therapeutic relationship. What an awful situation to be in. Especially since I take it that you're a student and don't have much flexibility to follow her should she establish herself elsewhere.
Posted by 10derHeart on February 15, 2005, at 17:59:32
In reply to A Bombshell, posted by messadivoce on February 14, 2005, at 23:58:31
Posted by pinkeye on February 15, 2005, at 18:08:13
In reply to An Update, posted by messadivoce on February 15, 2005, at 14:39:58
I can give you one advise which I do to get better. I had to let go of my therapist about 3 weeks ago. I had and still have huge attachment to him - and it is still extremely hard for me to think that I won't be seeing him or writing to him anymore. But I decided to reach out to others who are in need - participate and help people more in babble, and try to reach out to other people also, to compensate for what I lost with him. The kind of care that he gave me - I would never be able to get it anywhere, and I would always miss it, but I have decided to give it to others myself - to wahtever extent possible. That helps me immensely in coping up with my loss. Maybe you can do something like that.
Posted by shrinking violet on February 15, 2005, at 18:19:20
In reply to An Update, posted by messadivoce on February 15, 2005, at 14:39:58
Oh, I'm so sorry this is happening. Your T sounds very caring and devoted. I hope you can find out "the real story" soon, and heal from this pain you are now in. At least you are able to contact your T again, if you need to....I hope that provides at least a small measure of comfort to you. My heart goes out to you. Please take care.
Peace,
SV
Posted by mair on February 15, 2005, at 21:37:08
In reply to Re: An Update, posted by pinkeye on February 15, 2005, at 18:08:13
pinkeye, what a lovely sentiment.
Mair
Posted by pinkeye on February 15, 2005, at 21:45:07
In reply to Re: An Update » pinkeye, posted by mair on February 15, 2005, at 21:37:08
Thank you. It is extremely hard for me to go on without my old T. I became so attached to him. That is why I am trying to figure out ways to go on. And actually he was the one who suggested this kind of helping others, so I cannot take credit for that either :-)
Posted by mair on February 15, 2005, at 21:49:09
In reply to An Update, posted by messadivoce on February 15, 2005, at 14:39:58
This is awful, but it somehow seems like there has to be more to this story because it was so abrupt. Clinics do know that Ts aren't interchangeable and the piece of this that is so mystifying is that she was totally cut off so quickly.
By the same token, I'm not sure anyone is going to tell you the whole unadulterated truth, and I'm not sure how much comfort the truth is going to give you.
I think you need to do whatever seems right to take care of yourself.
I can't remember if you said - how long had you been seeing this T?
Mair
Posted by crushedout on February 15, 2005, at 22:01:47
In reply to An Update, posted by messadivoce on February 15, 2005, at 14:39:58
Voce,This all sounds horrible and I don't know what to say. The silver lining is that it's clear your T cares so much about you and is willing to still be in touch. I'd make use of that. I'm sure she means it.
The other potential silver lining is that it really is possible to find someone else. I find it hard to believe I'm saying this, but not too long ago I would barely *consider* the possibility of starting over, and now, as much as I miss my ex-T, I'm growing closer to this new one, and appreciating what she brings to the table (which is different from what my ex-T brought -- in some ways better, and in some ways not as good).
Basically, what I've learned through this (and through other experiences in my life) is that we have an infinite capacity to love and appreciate people, and each opportunity to do that with someone new is truly a good thing.
None of that takes away the pain of losing someone special, though. So allow yourself to grieve and know that we all really are here for you.
((((((((voce))))))))))
Posted by messadivoce on February 16, 2005, at 2:15:12
In reply to Voce, I Babblemailed you. (nm) » messadivoce, posted by 10derHeart on February 15, 2005, at 17:59:32
Posted by LG04 on February 17, 2005, at 1:27:44
In reply to Re: I sent you a babblemail (nm) » 10derHeart, posted by messadivoce on February 16, 2005, at 2:15:12
since she said you can call her, why don't you try that? can you tell her you still need to talk to her about some things, about how devestated you understandably feel, that you need more time to adjust to this, etc.? can you work out a way to speak with her once a week or something on the phone for a while and you can pay her something?
i had to terminate prematurely with my therapist (because i moved, a totally different situation than yours) but it was still so painful for me and now we talk on the phone and i pay her, and it has been very helpful for me in dealing with the loss of seeing her. so that's why i'm wondering if this method might be helpful for you also?
she seems to understand how painful this must feel for you and expressed her availability to you in other ways (phone or email). i think that is encouraging and maybe it would help you to make use of that.LG04
Posted by Susan47 on February 17, 2005, at 10:03:23
In reply to Re: I sent you a babblemail » messadivoce, posted by LG04 on February 17, 2005, at 1:27:44
I have a friend who talks to her therapist by phone halfway around the world, once a month and it really seems to help her. It doesn't seem to matter, sometimes, how you keep the connection as long as you make it that seems to be the important thing.
Posted by messadivoce on February 17, 2005, at 10:49:02
In reply to Re: I sent you a babblemail, posted by Susan47 on February 17, 2005, at 10:03:23
Just wanted to let you all know, I will be meeting with the vice president of student life at my university, who was heavily involved in this decision. The assistant to the VP who I have been talking with has told me that this was my T's decision, but we'll see about that. I don't have the whole story yet. They have been very accomadating thus far.
I plan on discussing how this change was handled totally inapropriately and my disappointment that we were not given any kind of transition period. I feel that as supervisors of "Student Life" they have failed immensely in this case. Anyone else have any good points that might be raised? I need to be fully armed.
I'll post more later, about how I'm feeling, etc, and try to respond to individual posts.
Posted by Daisym on February 17, 2005, at 18:31:19
In reply to The next step, posted by messadivoce on February 17, 2005, at 10:49:02
Isn't there a mandate that therapists are not supposed to just "abandon" their clients? (Unless there is a life threatening emergency, of course.) I think there is supposed to be a bridge of some sort to cover the clients.
I think you are being amazingly strong. Good luck!
Posted by LG04 on February 18, 2005, at 0:54:58
In reply to The next step, posted by messadivoce on February 17, 2005, at 10:49:02
how about mental anguish, abandonment, emotional abuse? even if your therapist left of her own accord b/c she was demoted as director (which they MUST have anticipated, it's rare that a person accepts a demotion), they should have offered to pay her for at least a month or more so she could do some kind of transitioning/termination with her clients. shouldn't the students have been their numbei one priority all along? shouldn't they have been communicating with the students using the service that possible changes were being discussed? shouldn't they have made sure that any therapist who decided to leave due to these changes was given enough time (and salary) -- even ORDERED -- to meet with her clients for a given amount of time in order to be responsible about termination? how these changes might affect the student clients should have been their very first priority and they should have had a very clear plan for dealing with this possibility in a moral and least damaging way possible. don't let them blame your therapist and avoid taking any responsibility. this guy you are meeting with is above her. he needs to be accountable and do something to correct this wrong.
i think their behavior is outrageous and also dangerous. maybe you could educate him a bit about attachment and how difficult it is to begin to trust a therapist and how this is a trauma for you (it sounds like it is, i know it would be for me) and instead of being helped by the service you have now been deeply harmed.
i could go on and on. i would try to keep your emotions in check to some degree, i have found that men in positions of power don't give much credence to hysterical women even if we have every right to be hysterical. (again, i know if i were in your situation, i could break down sobbing so i am just speaking as if it were me). i think having your eyes well up with tears is effective though. this is not manipulative, this is doing everything you can to express how hurt and angry you feel without discrediting yourself in his eyes. just my opinion.
maybe i am being cynical, it's just that i have been the sobbing woman before and it worked very much against me. as i said, maybe for you it's not even an issue. some people are the exact opposite, not wanting to give the satisfaction of showing even a speck of emotion. while others prefer some kind of a middle ground. i get too emotional in situations like this so that's the place i am coming from.
lastly, and i do not say this lightly, i know that i would find a way to respectfully hint that without appropriate time for termination, a lawsuit could be in order. i hate how "sue - happy" our culture is but once in a while i think there is good cause to sue and this is one of those times. not in a threatening way that would create some kind of power showdown, but in a way that shows the seriousness with which you view this issue. isn't there something in the "by-laws" of the university about caring for the welfare of its students? or in the by-laws of the health service? maybe you can find some kind of written document that says something like this and indicate that they have broken their "contract" with you, as a student. if it's clear that their actions have gone against something that is in writing, this might scare them enough to offer you something, such as an appropriate amount of time to meet with her to deal with transition and termination issues. (as if there's such a thing when it was totally unexpected...but still, it seems like any amount of time that you could process this with your T would be helpful).
okay well that's my opinion for whatever it's worth. i am furious at your university, can you tell?
please keep us updated. and it's really brave and wonderful that you are fighting this.
LG04
Posted by messadivoce on February 18, 2005, at 1:08:30
In reply to Re: The next step » messadivoce, posted by LG04 on February 18, 2005, at 0:54:58
Thanks, LG04, for your thoughts. I like your point about it being the VP's responsibility to make sure the termination is ethical...and btw, the VP is a woman so there will be three woman in there. Me, her, and the assistant I've been working through all this time.
I'm not sure how emotional I'll be. Crying has always been a huge sign of weakness in my mind, and I tend to be stoic and then fall apart afterwards. I am going to try and be stoic and at the same time express how deeply I've been hurt.
I think with the lawsuit thing I am on shaky ground--I don't know the details of her leaving, and it's remotely possible they had to legally let her go??? That's the scary part for me. Did my T do something bad? Regardless, this termination was handled terribly on their part.
But I'm pretty scared--I know I won't be eating or sleeping much in the days before. I feel like I'm going into battle here--as melodramatic as that may be. Will ya'll be there in spirit???
Posted by messadivoce on February 18, 2005, at 1:12:15
In reply to Re: The next step, posted by Daisym on February 17, 2005, at 18:31:19
Thanks Daisy. I know about that mandate in the APA guidelines. I know they are going to try and put this on my T though. The line they are giving me is "this happened and no one expected it to." I'm fighting the system here.
As for being strong, I don't feel that way. I feel like I might crumble any second. I'm having trouble eating too. I'm hungry, but I can't bring myself to actually eat much. And I can usually eat myself through any crisis. ;-)
Posted by LG04 on February 18, 2005, at 3:45:01
In reply to Re: The next step » LG04, posted by messadivoce on February 18, 2005, at 1:08:30
it's funny, as i was writing i was thinking to myself that it's sexist of me to assume the VP is a man. especially since i consider myself a feminist. old habits are hard to break.
i understand feeling shaky about mentioning a potential lawsuit. it could backfire and make them feel threatened and defensive and uncooperative. and as you said, you aren't sure yet of the circumstances of this whole thing.
i suppose the question to ask yourself is what you are wanting to get out of this meeting. an apology? an admission of irresponsibility and unethical behavior? an explanation of what happened? an opportunity for you to educate them on what a person's therapist can mean to them and how emotionally attached we can get to them? for them to understand how much this has hurt you? for them to do something about it, like giving you time with your therapist? all of the above? something else?
this might help you clarify exactly how you want to approach the meeting. and there's nothing wrong with writing down a few notes if you are the type to get nervous and then leave and say to yourself, "darn! i forgot to say this and this!" (and again this may be cynical, but i'd keep my expectations low. you may or may not get what you want from them, or something in between. maybe view this meeting as something that you need to do for yourself and your integrity, and if they happen to respond in a way that you like, consider it a bonus. This is how i confronted my dad about the abuse. i decided that i had to do it for me and my self-respect, and that his potential response was simply not the issue. it helped me so much to approach it that way.)
also, do you have a plan for what to do immediately afterwards? a friend you can arrange to meet or call? a coffeehouse where you can go and write in a journal? coming straight to Babble to tell us what happened? i find that when i am really scared of a situation, it helps immensely if i have a plan for what to do right afterwards. because you are right, you don't know what you will find out, i.e. if they had to let your therapist go or whatever. it could be upsetting and ungrounding. make sure you have some kind of support set up right afterwards if you can, at least as an option. sometimes i even set something up beforehand too. something to calm me before i go, and to soothe me after i leave. i call it "bookending."
and yes, i will totally be there in spirit. 100%. when is the meeting? so i can send good thoughts your way. i hate when institutions make decisions without regard to the PEOPLE who depend on that institution. and i've also had to leave several therapists for reasons beyond my control (insurance usually) and even though it's not the same as your situation, it really hits a raw nerve.
You'll do great.
LG04
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