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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DaisyM on September 27, 2003, at 16:49:25
Do you think there are stages to the therapy process? I'm trying to figure out why I have such strong reactions after a session...instead of during the actual conversation that took place. Especially when I didn't feel particularly emotional, initially, upon leaving. It is like it sneaks up on you, water boiling over, etc. I keep thinking about it as three different sets of emotions - Pre-session: Fear; During Session: control; After: Train wreck.
It might be a trust issue...not that I don't trust my therapist (I've been working with him for 5 months and it is my first time in therapy. But in sharing things I don't usually share, or even allow myself to dwell on, I keep wondering if I'm trying to tell myself that I shouldn't be doing this. It's like I don't trust myself. And I struggle with the aftermath train wreck because it is painful...and makes no intellectual sense to me.
*sigh* Gosh, this is hard. Self-imposed torture. I know I have to "go through it" to come out on the other side...but REALLY, someone should write down all the answers in a book somewhere. Of course, the fact that I'm not really sure what the question is could be a problem, but still! :)
I'd appreciate advise as to how (I don't even know if it is possible) to have the train wreck happen during the session, when help is readily available, instead of after.
Posted by fallsfall on September 27, 2003, at 17:58:17
In reply to Using Sessions Better - Need Advice, posted by DaisyM on September 27, 2003, at 16:49:25
Good question!
I find that during the session I tend to control, also. And after the session things can be very difficult.
I think that the best way to go about fixing this is to talk to your therapist and tell him exactly what is going on. Can you tell during the session when you are exerting control? If you can't, then maybe if you record what the train wreck is like your therapist might be able to relate it back to things said in the session. I think it will need to be a joint effort.
I had this problem with my previous therapist, but I didn't really understand what was happening until I left her. I have less fear in my sessions now because I am less invested in my new therapist, so I am less afraid of doing the wrong thing.
Therapists usually love to talk about stuff like this because it is about the relationship between the two of you. That gives them a close up look at how you interact with other people.
Good luck! And when you find the answer, could you let the rest of us know?
Posted by Tabitha on September 27, 2003, at 18:03:56
In reply to Using Sessions Better - Need Advice, posted by DaisyM on September 27, 2003, at 16:49:25
I share your frustration-- I often have emotional reactions after a situation rather than during it. I'm not sure how to speed up the process, but I think that as you get more connected to your feelings, the delay gets shorter.
Do you discuss the train wreck feelings in your next session? That's important-- at least it brings your feelings into therapy, even if they're one session old.
You also might notice if you do anything to intentionally suppress your feelings in the session-- like tensing your body or holding your breath at times. If so, try to consciously relax.
I think your insight that it's related to trust is probably right on target. It may just take time to feel safe enough to have feelings in front of your therapist. I've been in therapy for ten years and it's still not always easy for me to show feelings in the session.
Lastly, you might just challenge your assumption that you 'should' be having your feelings during the session at this point. You're there to learn about yourself-- and you're learning it's hard for you to show feelings. In a way you're using the sessions exactly right. You might just discuss it as a goal in therapy, then you can measure progress. Getting more connected to your feelings is likely to happen-- just give yourself a little time.
Posted by DaisyM on September 28, 2003, at 0:10:40
In reply to Re: Using Sessions Better - Need Advice » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on September 27, 2003, at 17:58:17
Thanks for the feedback. It makes me feel better about what is going on...like it is allowed, a normal part of the process somehow. I have talked to my therapist somewhat about how hard it is for me to really give up control and "we've" agreed that I will not take care of him...at least I will try to not do that and he will call me on it if he thinks I am. I am still trying not to feel guilty and selfish about this process...it is so one sided and not what I'm use to! We've talked about this too...I want him to give me reasons that I should keep coming beyond "I want to" and he keeps trying to convince me that "wanting to" is reason enough. (Of course, he does have a list of other reasons -- my original list when I first came--so if I push, he will remind me that I have "good" enough reasons for being there.)
One of my goals is to get more comfortable asking for help -- support and psychologically speaking that is. I actually called him today to tell him I was having a "train wreck" and he actually called me back. And, of course I apologized for bothering him. He laughed but nicely and we talked about what to do with these feelings.
And I posted here. So...progress. Baby steps.
His assessment was - fear of the unknown, control issues and he wondered if I was worried about "dependency" issues. He wants me to "sit" with the feelings as long as I can tolerate them (22.2 seconds so far) and try to sort out the tangle. Boy, that's hard. Who ever coined the term "mental anguish" sure got it right!
It seems like the load keeps getting harder to carry due to the amount of time I've been doing it, not the weight changing. I am definitely frustrated about the amount of time it is taking to "feel better," though my therapist is suggesting that I need to not be in such a hurry...that I might need to actually spend some time processing the changes I am feeling and grieving for what life isn't...and for what it is.
Thank you for being around to help with the "process." It seems almost as hard, and important, as the actual issues that brought me to therapy in the first place.
Posted by Dinah on September 28, 2003, at 2:00:39
In reply to Re: Using Sessions Better - Need Advice, posted by DaisyM on September 28, 2003, at 0:10:40
It may be hard (and it is!) but it sounds as if you have a very good therapist to help you along the way. In fact, he sounds an awful lot like mine. :) You don't happen to live.... No. I don't want to know. :P I like the other clients a lot better when I don't know them. lol.
By the way, I used to have time delayed reactions all the time. At the beginning it might take weeks to figure out what I was feeling. It was a major step forward when I could call and tell him within a day. And now I can almost always tell him at the moment.
I know how hard it is to worry about "bothering" your therapist. But mine always told me he'd rather hear about what I was feeling right away rather than letting it stew. And he always tells me to call him when I need to. And I do. He says I've never come close to stepping over the boundaries of what is appropriate. So feel comfortable trusting your therapist to take care of himself.
Posted by fallsfall on September 28, 2003, at 10:38:24
In reply to Re: Using Sessions Better - Need Advice, posted by DaisyM on September 28, 2003, at 0:10:40
It does sounds like you are doing really well. 5 months is not a long time if you have significant issues. My first therapist said that she thought I would need 6 sessions for my depression. I stayed with her 8 1/2 years. Guess I had a few more issues than she could see in that first session. I can tell that you are trying really hard to be open and honest. That can be so hard to do.
The process is one sided. Actually, the other side is the money that you pay. Since I'm always trying to take care of other people, it was hard at first to let someone take care of me (but then I got to liking it, and that was a different problem!). I think that one thing that made it easier for me was that she really was unhappy when I tried to push the subject away from me. Eventually I figured out that the way to make a therapist happy is to keep them out of the discussion. It is definately weird.
22.2 seconds is a long time to tolerate feelings. You should be proud. This part takes a lot of practice. The time will increase when you start to understand that you don't explode or implode when the feelings are out in the open.
Therapy is a unique thing. It takes some getting used to. I look forward to hearing how it goes for you.
Posted by DaisyM on September 28, 2003, at 18:41:03
In reply to Re: Using Sessions Better - Need Advice » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on September 28, 2003, at 10:38:24
Thanks for the nice words and encouragement. It really helps to hear about other people's experience.
I guess I don't FEEL like I'm doing all that well...but now at least I feel like I'm "doing" therapy the right way...if there is a right way. It is interesting to think about how much time and energy all of this takes. I was in a curriculum planning meeting for a new mental health certificate at our local college and one of the committee members, who is an MFT, stated her very strong opinions about short-term therapy. She felt that "if it is taking longer than 5-6 months see a lot of progress and reach goals, then the client isn't working hard enough outside of the sessions." She went on to say more, fostering dependency, blah, blah, but I was pretty upset by her views. So, of course, I took my concerns to my next session, to inquire exactly what I should be doing between sessions (YOU KNOW, needing to be the perfect client/student). My therapist basically said, "As much or as little as you can, and breathing is good too"...what a smart<<<! :) It has taken me this long to begin to trust and tell my "real" story. I guess I'm glad I'm not that MFT's client. She did, however, show up in a nasty therapy nightmare.
I think the hardest thing is that I get whomped with these really painful, confusing emotions after sessions but I need to keep things as normal as possible for everyone else around me. I guess that is universally true to most of us in therapy. I do worry about those boundaries, I can't (feel like I shouldn't?) call every time I'm feeling like the world is caving in. I had one morning where I literally dialed 9 times and never left a message!
I guess that is why I've started posting here. It feels good to ask questions and get feedback without "bothering" anyone...no one has to answer. Does that make any sense? *sigh*
Again, thanks for the feedback. And, Dinah...no I don't live in...never mind! :) -D
Posted by Dinah on September 28, 2003, at 19:21:56
In reply to Re: Using Sessions Better - Need Advice, posted by DaisyM on September 28, 2003, at 18:41:03
> Again, thanks for the feedback. And, Dinah...no I don't live in...never mind! :) -D
>
>LOL. What a relief!!
I used to have huge intra-Dinah arguments about calling my therapist. So I would call and hang up a few times, call and leave messages, then call and tell him never mind not to call me, etc. He had caller ID so he knew just how many times I called him. I asked him once if it was annoying to him, and he answered (after a bit of thought) that since I got his machine and he heard all the messages at once, that it wasn't and it gave him an interesting look into the workings of my mind. I think in the end he decided to find it amusing.
That's something else I don't do much, if ever any more. Although he does point out that I have a pattern where if I call and express anger in an answering machine message, I then shortly thereafter call and try to retract it all. It's a work in progress. :) With twice weekly sessions, though, I don't call him between sessions all that often any more.
Posted by Adia on September 28, 2003, at 20:47:28
In reply to Using Sessions Better - Need Advice, posted by DaisyM on September 27, 2003, at 16:49:25
Hi...!
Thank you for sharing..
I agree with what fallsfall has shared that the best thing would be to discuss all this with your therapist..and that it does take time...
i too find it really hard to experience feelings during the session and sometimes the moment I walk out of her building I wish so much I could go back and cry or really be there with her...Sometimes I call in between sessions or I try to write so I can stay with the feeling and somehow share it with her...I too feel that it all overwhelms me after the sessions and I wish I could feel all of that while being with her instead of by myself.
I think it's a long process, and it takes time and lots of trust to be able to show and experience emotions while being in session..
I think it would be very valuable for both of you to discuss all this...
Maybe she can help you feel those feelings and that hurt while you are with her...My therapist says I am terrified of feeling when I am with her..and it's like I build this huge wall and I find it hard to be totally present or let myself go...
It seems you have a very good therapist and that he will help you through this process...
It is so hard, but I hang on to baby steps, too....
I wish you the best of luck! let us know how it all goes,
wish I could help! but I struggle with the same...
sending you support,and thank you for sharing here..!
Adia.> Do you think there are stages to the therapy process? I'm trying to figure out why I have such strong reactions after a session...instead of during the actual conversation that took place. Especially when I didn't feel particularly emotional, initially, upon leaving. It is like it sneaks up on you, water boiling over, etc. I keep thinking about it as three different sets of emotions - Pre-session: Fear; During Session: control; After: Train wreck.
>
> It might be a trust issue...not that I don't trust my therapist (I've been working with him for 5 months and it is my first time in therapy. But in sharing things I don't usually share, or even allow myself to dwell on, I keep wondering if I'm trying to tell myself that I shouldn't be doing this. It's like I don't trust myself. And I struggle with the aftermath train wreck because it is painful...and makes no intellectual sense to me.
>
> *sigh* Gosh, this is hard. Self-imposed torture. I know I have to "go through it" to come out on the other side...but REALLY, someone should write down all the answers in a book somewhere. Of course, the fact that I'm not really sure what the question is could be a problem, but still! :)
>
> I'd appreciate advise as to how (I don't even know if it is possible) to have the train wreck happen during the session, when help is readily available, instead of after.
>
Posted by fallsfall on September 28, 2003, at 22:34:14
In reply to Re: Using Sessions Better - Need Advice, posted by DaisyM on September 28, 2003, at 18:41:03
"the perfect client/student" - boy, do I know about that!
If you tell her how much the sessions are affecting you she might reduce the intensity a bit. I have found that therapists can really control intensity. I would think that she would agree that completely disrupting your life is not a goal of therapy!
"I guess that is why I've started posting here. It feels good to ask questions and get feedback without "bothering" anyone...no one has to answer. Does that make any sense? *sigh* "
Yes, that makes perfect sense. Just remember that if you are in a lot of pain, you should call her. Or if you are in TONS of pain, you can go to the Emergency room. My point is that you can't count on us getting back to you in the timeframe that you need.
Posted by DaisyM on September 29, 2003, at 0:34:21
In reply to Re: Using Sessions Better - Need Advice » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on September 28, 2003, at 22:34:14
Not to worry...I know posting isn't "direct" support for immediate pain. It is good for clarity, I have a lot to take with me to therapy tomorrow.
It is funny that you should bring up intensity because at my last session we discussed exactly that. There are areas that I am considering (need to?) really, finally, deal with. However, due to the current demands and stresses of my life, my therapist was wondering if it is the right time...he is afraid it might be too much right now. I "crashed" a couple of weeks ago (I think I read somewhere on here about disclosure and the ensuing emotions) and we went to twice a week sessions to try to contain things. I feel calm right now, but fragile. I guess we'll decide how to proceed this week. I'm torn...I want to feel better so "cleaning out" the wound seems attractive...but I'm well aware it might be (ok, will be) painful.
I am trying to take your advice about giving it time - patience is not one of my strengths. -D
Posted by Medusa on October 6, 2003, at 5:02:47
In reply to Re: Using Sessions Better - Need Advice, posted by DaisyM on September 28, 2003, at 18:41:03
> "if it is taking longer than 5-6 months
<snip>
>then the client isn't working hard enough
>outside of the sessions."That's just mean.
I have mixed experiences with the long-term/short-term therapy thing. In the long-term approach, I was very frustrated by the lack of practical coaching. In many ways, it felt like it had no connection to the daily challenges I had to face in the real world. I wanted to live outside my head a bit, and talk therapy did not bring me any closer to that at ALL.
But I needed someone to sit with me and listen. Nobody had ever sat with me and listened, and believed what I said. This is what the systems therapy (almost always short-term, from what I understand) people are missing.
Last year I had 9 sessions with a short-term family-systems therapist. She usually does about six sessions over six months, and requires a lot of homework in between. I learned a LOT, and she explained some things that talking never solved. After my last session, I had the feeling that she'd brought me very far, but wouldn't be able to help me any more. Her own approach made it easier to end the therapy. I don't think she believed I'd "arrived", but she'd done what she could. She'd also skidded WAY out of control in a joint session with my then-partner, who'd initiated the therapy. He had very little capacity for empathy, and the therapist just lost it with him in one session. Her ganging up with me did NOT make me feel safe - I didn't know when she'd lose it with me. So I had one more session - that gave me the skills and strength to make it through a three-week stay with my parents - and then wrote her a letter while I was visiting my family, and that was it. I might run into her on the street one day, and that'll be okay. But the compassion element is not the selling point of short-term therapy.
>"As much or as little as you can, and breathing
> is good too"...what a smart<<<! :)Yeah, smartypants maybe, but that compassion is so healing. Even for me, just reading a second-hand account of what he said!
> I need to keep things as normal as possible
> for everyone else around me.I hear you. I feel the same way ... and then I end up getting treated pretty flippantly by therapists, and they "explain" that their other patients (whose sessions run over when I'm scheduled, or arrive early so my session is cut short) are in "a lot of pain" or "very sick" or whatever. ???!!! Getting to therapy might have been the only thing I did that week, and showering and showing up in something relatively clean and being polite to the therapist gets me labeled "high-functioning".
> I guess that is why I've started posting here.
I'm glad you're posting here. I tend to post sporadically every few months, and finding your post when I dropped in today was really interesting for me, because I've been thinking a lot about the talk vs. systems therapy approaches.
Speaking of showering and putting on something clean ... ;)
Catch you later.
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2003, at 10:02:40
In reply to what's MFT? » DaisyM, posted by Medusa on October 6, 2003, at 5:02:47
Sounds like you've had a lot of changes in your life. Would you like to tell us how you're doing on Social?
This is the end of the thread.
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