![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 45 to 69 of 87. Go back in thread:
Posted by tealady on November 16, 2003, at 21:59:28
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » McPac, posted by DSCH on November 10, 2003, at 20:38:47
> > "A small percentage of persons with sufficient dietary methionine cannot efficiently produce SAMe --- These persons need supplemental SAMe, and not methionine or TMG and are the exception to the rule."
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>> I wonder if I am in this small percentage? Pfeiffer recently increased my methionine to 2,500 mg/day, as 1,500 mg/day for MANY months wasn't doing anything....in this small % of folks, WHY is their methionine not converted to SAMe?
>
> Not enough ATP or magnesium to spare from other duties?A deficency in the enzymes that accomplish this task?
Perhaps too much selenium or too little?
RTF] MECHANISMS OF SELENIUM METHYLATION AND TOXICITY IN MICE TREATED ...
File Format: Rich Text Format - View as HTML
... These results suggest that the depression of selenium methylation ability resulting
from inactivation of SAM synthetase and selenium methylating enzyme(s) was ...http://www.google.com.au/search?q=cache:o62M9jkpWOsJ:www-tiresias.bio.unipd.it/HomeSele/poster/9(Miscellanea)/Hasegawa.rtf+sam+selenium&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
ENHANCEMENT OF SELENOCYSTINE TOXICITY CAUSED BY THE INHIBITION OF SELENIUM METHYLATION
T. Hasegawa1, T. Okuno2, K. Nakamuro2 and Y. Seko1
1Yamanashi Institute of Environmental Sciences, Fujiyoshida, Yamanashi, Japan2Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Setsunan University, Hirakata, Osaka, Japan.
We have already reported that the liver was damaged in mice treated orally with selenocystine (SeCys). The present study was carried out to elucidate the relationship between hepatic toxicity and selenium methylation in mice after repeated oral administration of SeCys (10 or 20 mg/kg) for 10 days. The animals exposed to the high dose showed a significant rise of aspartate aminotransferase (AST) and alanine aminotransferase (ALT) activities in plasma. Urinary total selenium increased with SeCys dose. Although content of trimethylselenonium ion (TMSe) as the end-product of selenium methylation in urine amounted to 85 % of total selenium at the low dose, it was only 25 % at the high dose. In the liver, the high dose resulted in inactivation of selenium methylating enzyme(s) and decrease in S-adenosylmethionine (SAM) level due to the inhibition of SAM synthetase activity. To determine whether hepatic toxicity was enhanced by the depression of selenium methylation, mice were injected with periodate-oxidized adenosine (PAD; 100 mol/kg, i.p.), a known potent inhibitor of the SAM-dependent methyltransferase, 30 min before oral treatment of SeCys (10, 20 or 50 mg/kg). Hepatic toxicity induced by SeCys was significantly enhanced by the PAD-pretreatment. In vitro experiment was carried out to determined a chemical species of SeCys metabolite which inactivated the SAM synthetase. The enzyme was strongly inhibited by selenide, which is a precursor of methylated selenium compounds. These results suggest that the depression of selenium methylation ability resulting from inactivation of SAM synthetase and selenium methylating enzyme(s) was caused by selenide in mice following repeated oral administration of a toxic dose of SeCys. The excess selenide accumulated by depression of selenium methylation may be involved in the liver toxicity caused by SeCys.
----------http://www.genome.ad.jp/dbget-bin/show_pathway?hsa00450+27430
--------------
Looks like selenium is in there somewhere?Jan
Posted by tealady on November 16, 2003, at 22:26:28
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on November 11, 2003, at 7:22:16
>
> > > (I had a great result with SAMe, but found it too expensive and when I was taking it as my only anti-depressant remedy, that it pooped out after about 2 months.) I recall Larry's explanation to Ron Hill re why this might happen and concluded that with methionine, it might not.
> >
> > Let's hope.
>
> Indeed! SAMe pooping out was very crushing to my hopes of realizing a dream for natural remedies in place of ADs.JLx,
I guess this means you tried SAMe before and it pooped out? I haven't come aross that old thread as yet.
I was thinking of trying SAMe one day too.Some on the thyroid forum have been taking SAME for a long time with no poop out. (Note -one of them was on antiD's before and used SAMe to help wean off). Most also take calc/magnesium too.
So perhaps the tyrosine and say 63mcg to 200mcg Selenomethionine form of selenium(Selenium 25mg to 75mg) together with the SAMe might work.
Let us know how you go.I'm going to start St John's Wort this afternoon..
If that doesn't work its SAMeI started DHEA last week.. Are you taking it?
Jan
Posted by tealady on November 16, 2003, at 22:31:44
In reply to Re: DMAE, choline, TMG » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 11, 2003, at 7:43:40
> I've been really helped by the tyrosine, however, and am leery of cutting it out altogether though I have cut it down from my original dose.
>
>
What dose are you on now of tyrosine?
There's no way I'd give it up either!
Jan
Posted by tealady on November 17, 2003, at 14:03:30
In reply to Re: TMG/methyl donors/ Vitamin C » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 15, 2003, at 5:29:20
>
> http://www.methylmagic.com/research.html>"It is best to take vitamin C at a different time of day (two hours away) from the time you take folic acid or vitamin B12."
>I haven't been doing that at all. I wonder how much of a difference it might make.
I've never heard of this anywhere else. I can't figure out why.
I appreciated your support earlier this month, thanks. Just working thru this long thread.
Personally I haven't mastered this methylation concept as yet.
I'm wondering if too much methaemoglobuin means over methylated or if I just can't break down and use the methyl stuff...perhaps one day.
I'm sure it's been too over simplified breaking people into under/over methylated anyway.I'm finding NADH keeps me more alert..wake up feeling fine ..not steamrollered and can stay awake most of day.It's not a constant fight. No longer blanking out etc...but then I haven't tried functioning at normal levels as yet or pushing myself at all either.
BUT I seem to get real depressed for a few hours after taking each NADH tablet...up to 6 hrs usually. Could still be a coincidence and haven't worked out why this may occur.
That worst day was the first day I tried NADH..and I took 7.5mcg over the day..one of the reasonsAnyone else try NADH? How did it affect you?
Another was I had run out of licorice..and my supply had temporarily dried up...I didn't realise the full significance of this until then..Started on SJW yesterday, been on DHEA 4 days I think now...I know I'm doing too much at once, but I need some changes right now, will work out what does what later, even if slower in the long run.
Best wishes
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 21, 2003, at 7:54:40
In reply to Vitamin C/ methylation/ NADH » JLx, posted by tealady on November 17, 2003, at 14:03:30
Posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 9:11:01
In reply to Re: DSCH ....how does TMG feel to you? » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 15, 2003, at 5:31:07
> No, it was the other way around. Using my posts I can say that I started back on TMG on the 10/24 and then cut the aminos on (I think) 10/28.
>
> The "why am I so agitated?" post on 10/24 (evening)...
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/272902.html
>
> The "OK, lest test this theory out" post on 10/27 (evening)...
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/274063.htmlSorry for the delay...you've been very helpful.
Based on your experience, I increased my TMG a lot and am having a good result! :) I bought the bulk rather than capsules so am not too precise about what I'm taking, but I think it's about 800 mg 3/day. I didn't notice a boost until I took this higher amount. I feel more evened out, more energy and started sleeping better too.
I'm still taking 500 mg of tyrosine as I think I need that for my thyroid if nothing else.
I have some more experimenting to do, but so far I am enormously pleased. :)
Is this likely to be shortlived, do you think?
"Dosage: 3,000 milligrams a day, followed by a maintenance dose of 1,000 milligrams a day for up to three weeks."
http://www.holistic-online.com/Remedies/Depression/dep_nutrition2.htm#TMG3 weeks, and then what?
Posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 9:18:58
In reply to Re: TMG/methyl donors/ Vitamin C » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 15, 2003, at 5:34:36
> > > To keep this up I think I need at least 3000 mg/day. I might give 4000-6000 a shot sometime, if just to find out where the upper limit is and then back down from it. As Larry says, sensitivity can vary by orders of magnitude. If you are over-methylated, TMG should make things worse.
> >
> > Is it possible that one could BECOME overmethylated by taking all these methyl donors at once?
>
> I would think it's very possible.Hmm...I wonder how we would know. The main reason why I figured I was undermethylated was because I responded well to SAMe. Otherwise I don't predominantly have the symptoms. In "Depression Free Naturally" there were checklists about such things as high histamine and I came out pretty much something of everything rather than one or another being obvious.
>
> As for timing vitamin C and folic acid/B12 doses, I don't know.I was taking Vit C WITH tyrosine, P-5-P and then putting the B-12 under my tongue shortly therafter because I thought they all worked together which why I was dismayed at seeing that advice.
Posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 9:25:58
In reply to Re: Another question » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 15, 2003, at 7:21:26
> If you're otherwise "normal", you will not develop hyperhomocysteinemia (high blood homocysteine) because the B12-dependent pathway back to methionine dominates. I would just monitor the psych effect of TMG, and not worry about homocysteine."Normal", who me?? ;) Ok, thanks, I won't worry about it then.
> > Re previous post, just to be clear on this too, choline is NOT contraindicated for the undermethylated....despite what Dr. Walsh says?
>
> Undermethylation goes along with oxidative stress, in my opinion, so I would support choline supps, but, I would recommend that soya lecithin is the source, rather than choline per se. Every time a supp is tried, it should be seen as an experiment to determine how *you* respond to the substance. I've seen far too many paradoxical responses (the opposite of what is expected) to say that there is a blanket answer, a simple rule to follow. That's where I have problems with Pfeiffer, Walsh, et al.Aside from that choline/inositol (250mg of each) combo I've been taking, I've also taken lecithin quite often. Not sure if it's helped or hurt. I really need to separate these things in my experimentation, I know, but have just been desperate to get functional. So far, despite the confusion, it's been working. I've been taking a tax preparer's class since Sept 7 and have made it through and with a good grade too. That is a real accomplishment for me. Unfortunately the job I was hoping for now sounds like it will be many less hours and more short-lived than I'd hoped for, but something is better than nothing.
If I can get on something of an even keel, then I can experiment with the individual ingredients of my regimen, to see the difference.
As usual, thanks for all your help, Larry.
Btw, what do you think of the "don't take Vit C within 2 hours of B12" business?
JL
Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 9:28:47
In reply to Re: TMG feels good...short lived? » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 9:11:01
> > No, it was the other way around. Using my posts I can say that I started back on TMG on the 10/24 and then cut the aminos on (I think) 10/28.
> >
> > The "why am I so agitated?" post on 10/24 (evening)...
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/272902.html
> >
> > The "OK, lest test this theory out" post on 10/27 (evening)...
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/274063.html
>
> Sorry for the delay...you've been very helpful.
>
> Based on your experience, I increased my TMG a lot and am having a good result! :) I bought the bulk rather than capsules so am not too precise about what I'm taking, but I think it's about 800 mg 3/day. I didn't notice a boost until I took this higher amount. I feel more evened out, more energy and started sleeping better too.
>
> I'm still taking 500 mg of tyrosine as I think I need that for my thyroid if nothing else.
>
> I have some more experimenting to do, but so far I am enormously pleased. :)
>
> Is this likely to be shortlived, do you think?
>
> "Dosage: 3,000 milligrams a day, followed by a maintenance dose of 1,000 milligrams a day for up to three weeks."
> http://www.holistic-online.com/Remedies/Depression/dep_nutrition2.htm#TMG
>
> 3 weeks, and then what?I think Pfeiffer would have guffawed as they typically see improvement on the scale of months and then implement what is basically lifetime maintenance.
What do I think? I don't know. Once I got a good start then I wasn't dose schedule critical from hour-to-hour anymore. I've been off the regimen for at most a couple of days at a time, but then some fallback creeps in.
At this point I'm less happy/optimistic as I was when I felt like I had achieved a sucess. But then I am having to deal with the accumulated damage to the exterior particulars of my life up to this point. And then there are all the psychological issues that you and Francesco have alluded to in your own contexts lately. Not every problem goes away completely and permanently when you have the cells running well again, I guess. Need to change allocations and jumpers. :-)
Posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 9:32:00
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » DSCH, posted by tealady on November 16, 2003, at 21:59:28
> Looks like selenium is in there somewhere?
>
> JanHmm....interesting. I started upping my selenium about the same time as I started the TMG.
Ron Hill recently posted a link to these folks, and I've been reading a few articles on this site, including this one about selenium.
http://www.lifelinknet.com/siteResources/ArchivePages/Selenium-Supps-Sharpe.asp
I thought I was taking the "right" kind of selenium, in selenomethionine but now I'm confused.
Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 9:35:26
In reply to Re: TMG/methyl donors/ Vitamin C » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 9:18:58
> Hmm...I wonder how we would know. The main reason why I figured I was undermethylated was because I responded well to SAMe. Otherwise I don't predominantly have the symptoms. In "Depression Free Naturally" there were checklists about such things as high histamine and I came out pretty much something of everything rather than one or another being obvious.
I guess I am lucky to have found as good a fit on a chart as I did with Pfeiffer's for whatever else you can say about it. I wouldn't have tried TMG otherwise (or at least done so within a reasonable amount of time).
> > As for timing vitamin C and folic acid/B12 doses, I don't know.
>
> I was taking Vit C WITH tyrosine, P-5-P and then putting the B-12 under my tongue shortly therafter because I thought they all worked together which why I was dismayed at seeing that advice.I wouldn't know and I am skeptical of all these people selling their own self-treatment schemes in books and such. My recommendation: pick Larry's brain. :-)
Posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 10:10:32
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » JLx, posted by tealady on November 16, 2003, at 22:26:28
> JLx,
> I guess this means you tried SAMe before and it pooped out? I haven't come aross that old thread as yet.
> I was thinking of trying SAMe one day too.I don't know how much I've ever mentioned it on this site.
I've tried SAMe a couple times, the second time doubling the dose from the first time. From 400 mg to 800 mg I believe it was. The "more" was better, but then after 2 months, I sunk back down into depression and no energy again. This was prior to magnesium supplementation.
In my current everything-but-the-kitchen-sink trial, I had some SAMe left over from that prior time and took that along with all the amino acid experimentation (and magnesium) and really noticed it when I ran out. Less good mood, less energy. Hence my experimentation with TMG and methionine now to try to duplicate that result.
The increased TMG actually feels BETTER than the SAMe...so far anyway. It's only been just this week that I've stepped up to approx. 800 mg 3x/day.
> Some on the thyroid forum have been taking SAME for a long time with no poop out. (Note -one of them was on antiD's before and used SAMe to help wean off). Most also take calc/magnesium too.
Well, that's encouraging. I hope the TMG doesn't poop out either then.
> So perhaps the tyrosine and say 63mcg to 200mcg Selenomethionine form of selenium(Selenium 25mg to 75mg) together with the SAMe might work.
> Let us know how you go.I do take selenomethionine...don't remember how long I've been doing so now, but recently I've tried to take at least 200 mg a day for dental amalgams leaking mercury. And I'm feeling good this week since the higher dose of TMG!
I had a final exam in this class I've been taking and a job interview too, with another tomorrow, so I've been pretty stressed ...and hanging in there nevertheless. :)
Overall, since I began the tyrosine (along with some other changes) I've been fairly "ok" and functional for over 10 weeks now. Something of a record for me. I haven't had any major problems sticking with my diet regimen (low carb, no sugar, no grains, no dairy) and am losing weight steadily as well.
The only set back was when I took that L-glutamine and felt suicidal in one day, my little calcium experiment, and just recently when I started taking probiotics again after not doing so for a couple week. I always feel like crap for a few days when I do that. (If it's not yeast die-off I don't know why it happens)
> I'm going to start St John's Wort this afternoon..
> If that doesn't work its SAMeI hope it works for you! :) I bought some tryptophan for the serotonin boost when I think I need it, but haven't tried it yet. If I knew I was going to sleep better on the TMG I wouldn't have bought it.
I think I need the dopamine boost more than the serotonin as nothing has been as good as tyrosine for me. And then when I was taking 1500 mg, it was too much and my serotonin got out of whack. I actually feel better since I dropped back down to 500 mg tyrosine. (Which answers another post of yours.) I take it first thing in the morning with P-5-P -- a formula that includes Riboflavin 17 mg, Coenzyme Vitamin B6 33 mg (from 50 mg Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate), Magnesium 100 mg(as 75% Magnesium Oxide and 25% Magnesium Taurinate). I think this bit of magnesium and riboflavin might be helpful, as it feels better to me than the other P-5-P I had, which was only 25mg of P-5-P. Then I also take 1,000 mg of methylcobalamin (along with 1000 of the other B-12 as I'm using it up). I was taking it with 500 mg Vit C too but now have been taking the Vit C later.
> I started DHEA last week.. Are you taking it?
>
> JanYes, I always feel better when I do, but I've cut down a bit lately. I take 25 mg every other day.
JL
Posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 10:16:06
In reply to Vitamin C/ methylation/ NADH » JLx, posted by tealady on November 17, 2003, at 14:03:30
> I'm finding NADH keeps me more alert..wake up feeling fine ..not steamrollered and can stay awake most of day.It's not a constant fight. No longer blanking out etc...but then I haven't tried functioning at normal levels as yet or pushing myself at all either.
That sounds good. Tyrosine helps me to feel more awake. I'd like to try NADH but won't as long as I feel ok otherwise as it's pretty pricey.
> Another was I had run out of licorice..and my supply had temporarily dried up...I didn't realise the full significance of this until then..What is the licorice doing for you?
> Started on SJW yesterday, been on DHEA 4 days I think now...I know I'm doing too much at once, but I need some changes right now, will work out what does what later, even if slower in the long run.
>
> Best wishes
> JanThat was my thinking too, and I'm glad I tried it though it does seem a bit confusing.
Best wishes to you too. I was glad to see you back posting. :)
JL
Posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 10:27:03
In reply to Re: TMG feels good...short lived? » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 9:28:47
> I think Pfeiffer would have guffawed as they typically see improvement on the scale of months and then implement what is basically lifetime maintenance.
Hmm...ok, I will hope for the best then.
> What do I think? I don't know. Once I got a good start then I wasn't dose schedule critical from hour-to-hour anymore. I've been off the regimen for at most a couple of days at a time, but then some fallback creeps in.Well, at least I'm finding the TMG easy to take. My powder dissolves well in water.
> At this point I'm less happy/optimistic as I was when I felt like I had achieved a sucess. But then I am having to deal with the accumulated damage to the exterior particulars of my life up to this point. And then there are all the psychological issues that you and Francesco have alluded to in your own contexts lately. Not every problem goes away completely and permanently when you have the cells running well again, I guess. Need to change allocations and jumpers. :-)
Yes, it's exciting feeling like the mountain in your way has shifted some, but then there's still the stones in your shoes. :)
For me though, if I'm not prostrate with depression, I feel as if I at least have a fighting chance at picking up the pieces of my wrecked life.
Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 11:25:36
In reply to Re: SAMe, selenium, tyrosine, DHEA, etc. » tealady, posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 10:10:32
> I've tried SAMe a couple times, the second time doubling the dose from the first time. From 400 mg to 800 mg I believe it was. The "more" was better, but then after 2 months, I sunk back down into depression and no energy again. This was prior to magnesium supplementation.
Perhaps you exceeded your ability to convert homocystiene back into methionine and the homocystiene began to build up. SAM-e shouldn't have the effect of 'consuming' magnesium I think.
> In my current everything-but-the-kitchen-sink trial, I had some SAMe left over from that prior time and took that along with all the amino acid experimentation (and magnesium) and really noticed it when I ran out. Less good mood, less energy. Hence my experimentation with TMG and methionine now to try to duplicate that result.
>
> The increased TMG actually feels BETTER than the SAMe...so far anyway. It's only been just this week that I've stepped up to approx. 800 mg 3x/day.That's great! :-)
I'm giving 2000 mg of TMG tid a try. Also boosting my lecithin and fish oil too and returning to tid with my multi (recommended bid). The only things I'm not raising now are minerals (Ca and Mg) and the grape seed extract. I'm doing this because I've fallen back into lethargy somewhat, though my head has reamined pretty clear. I believe this is likely at least partly due to being laid off from my job and not being able to IM with someone I have taken a fancy to. ;-)
> > Some on the thyroid forum have been taking SAME for a long time with no poop out. (Note -one of them was on antiD's before and used SAMe to help wean off). Most also take calc/magnesium too.
>
> Well, that's encouraging. I hope the TMG doesn't poop out either then.
>
> > So perhaps the tyrosine and say 63mcg to 200mcg Selenomethionine form of selenium(Selenium 25mg to 75mg) together with the SAMe might work.
> > Let us know how you go.
>
> I do take selenomethionine...don't remember how long I've been doing so now, but recently I've tried to take at least 200 mg a day for dental amalgams leaking mercury. And I'm feeling good this week since the higher dose of TMG!Just to let you know, I checked my multi and it has 50 mcg of "yeast-free L-Selenomethionine" per capsule. So I've been getting 100 mcg/day for a while, now going up to 150.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 7:30:20
In reply to Re: TMG feels good...short lived? » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 9:11:01
> Based on your experience, I increased my TMG a lot and am having a good result! :)Way kewl!
> I bought the bulk rather than capsules so am not too precise about what I'm taking, but I think it's about 800 mg 3/day.
Crystal density is not a stable characteristic, but the bulk product I have claims 1 teaspoon is 4000 mg.
The only way I know of to get a decent "standard dose" size from a bulk purchase is to take a new bottle of product, and determine the volume of the whole container full, in a measuring cup or some such. If measured in mL, you can then do a ratio with the total mass, and get a reasonable mass/volume relationship.
> I didn't notice a boost until I took this higher amount. I feel more evened out, more energy and started sleeping better too.
Too much makes me insomnic. Go figure.
> I'm still taking 500 mg of tyrosine as I think I need that for my thyroid if nothing else.
That's a reasonable amount for thyroid maintenance.
> I have some more experimenting to do, but so far I am enormously pleased. :)So am I.
> Is this likely to be shortlived, do you think?
>
> "Dosage: 3,000 milligrams a day, followed by a maintenance dose of 1,000 milligrams a day for up to three weeks."
> http://www.holistic-online.com/Remedies/Depression/dep_nutrition2.htm#TMG
>
> 3 weeks, and then what?No reason to stop at three weeks. None.
Just be alert to changes in responsiveness to dose. You may well need to tweak, or take occasional breaks. You'll get a gut reaction thing going, over time.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 7:35:27
In reply to Re: Another question » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 9:25:58
>
> > If you're otherwise "normal", you will not develop hyperhomocysteinemia (high blood homocysteine) because the B12-dependent pathway back to methionine dominates. I would just monitor the psych effect of TMG, and not worry about homocysteine.
>
> "Normal", who me?? ;) Ok, thanks, I won't worry about it then.Normal is relative, and I ain't got no normal relatives. ;-)
No, no worries.
> > > Re previous post, just to be clear on this too, choline is NOT contraindicated for the undermethylated....despite what Dr. Walsh says?
> >
> > Undermethylation goes along with oxidative stress, in my opinion, so I would support choline supps, but, I would recommend that soya lecithin is the source, rather than choline per se. Every time a supp is tried, it should be seen as an experiment to determine how *you* respond to the substance. I've seen far too many paradoxical responses (the opposite of what is expected) to say that there is a blanket answer, a simple rule to follow. That's where I have problems with Pfeiffer, Walsh, et al.
>
> Aside from that choline/inositol (250mg of each) combo I've been taking, I've also taken lecithin quite often. Not sure if it's helped or hurt. I really need to separate these things in my experimentation, I know, but have just been desperate to get functional. So far, despite the confusion, it's been working. I've been taking a tax preparer's class since Sept 7 and have made it through and with a good grade too. That is a real accomplishment for me.Way to go!
> Unfortunately the job I was hoping for now sounds like it will be many less hours and more short-lived than I'd hoped for, but something is better than nothing.
Methinks there is no such thing as coincidence. You be given a chance to take things in stride, eh?
> If I can get on something of an even keel, then I can experiment with the individual ingredients of my regimen, to see the difference.
Good idea.
> As usual, thanks for all your help, Larry.My pleasure. Truly.
> Btw, what do you think of the "don't take Vit C within 2 hours of B12" business?
>
> JLI can't for the life of me imagine a reason why. Do you eat meat and veggies together? Vitamin C and B-12 together, ya know?
B-12 is stored, anyway. They're going to be together if you *ever* ingest vitamin C.
Just my opinionated reply.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 7:38:22
In reply to Re: methylation/selenium? » tealady, posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 9:32:00
> > Looks like selenium is in there somewhere?
> >
> > Jan
>
> Hmm....interesting. I started upping my selenium about the same time as I started the TMG.
>
> Ron Hill recently posted a link to these folks, and I've been reading a few articles on this site, including this one about selenium.
>
> http://www.lifelinknet.com/siteResources/ArchivePages/Selenium-Supps-Sharpe.asp
>
> I thought I was taking the "right" kind of selenium, in selenomethionine but now I'm confused.Don't overthink it. Modifying selenium intake is more important than worrying about the form its in.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 7:40:03
In reply to Re: TMG/methyl donors/ Vitamin C » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 9:35:26
> I wouldn't know and I am skeptical of all these people selling their own self-treatment schemes in books and such. My recommendation: pick Larry's brain. :-)Aaaackk! Wouldn't that hurt?
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 7:43:01
In reply to Re: TMG feels good...short lived? » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 10:27:03
> Yes, it's exciting feeling like the mountain in your way has shifted some,
Anyone can move a mountain, one stone at a time.
> but then there's still the stones in your shoes. :)
Get better shoes?
> For me though, if I'm not prostrate with depression, I feel as if I at least have a fighting chance at picking up the pieces of my wrecked life.Rage, rage, against the dying of the light....
:-)
Posted by JLx on November 22, 2003, at 8:33:34
In reply to Re: SAMe, selenium, tyrosine, DHEA, etc. » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 11:25:36
> > I've tried SAMe a couple times, the second time doubling the dose from the first time. From 400 mg to 800 mg I believe it was. The "more" was better, but then after 2 months, I sunk back down into depression and no energy again. This was prior to magnesium supplementation.
>
> Perhaps you exceeded your ability to convert homocystiene back into methionine and the homocystiene began to build up. SAM-e shouldn't have the effect of 'consuming' magnesium I think.I only mentioned magnesium because everything has worked differently since I've been supplementing with it, so perhaps my previous trials of SAMe doesn't indicate that much. (Like you with TMG and mg).
You may be right about the homocysteine build-up. I was taking a B-complex with folic acid, but perhaps it wasn't enough.
Larry also had some interesting info re SAMe here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030402/msgs/216302.html
I didn't get irritable on SAMe, for me it was poop-out at 2 months, but I thought perhaps the same principle applied.
Another interesting post from Larry http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030402/msgs/216171.:
"In simple terms, depression is associated with defects in sulphur metabolism. Methionine is an amino acid with a sulphur atom in it.
Methionine reactics with adenosine (as found in RNA and ATP), at the sulphur atom, to form S-adenosyl methionine (SAMe). The S- just says where the adenosine binds to the methionine. It is the "universal methyl donor", an essential molecule in a vast array of enzymatic processes and DNA transcription. After it donates a methyl group, you're left with S-adenosyl homocysteine. The adenosine is recycled, freeing homocysteine. Here's where problems occur in depressives. Stress blocks the normal recycling of homocysteine to methionine. Homocysteine accumulates while SAMe is depleted. You could take SAMe, but that doesn't fix the homocysteine problem. In fact, it makes it worse. Betaine induces an enzyme (the concentration of the enzyme increases if betaine is detected) called betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase. So, that will recycle homocysteine."
I eat eggs for breakfast usually and in fact sometimes really LOOK FORWARD to eating those eggs, almost a craving. When I was taking SAMe, that wasn't the case. It's a little more unpredictable now on TMG (I also take 500 mg of methionine in the A.M.) not quite the craving, but not the "take it or leave it" feeling on SAMe. Now, weirdly, the last couple days I've been sort-of craving eggs in the evening, which is very unusual. I wonder what this means.
Also note, Larry's comment, "Stress blocks the normal recycling of homocysteine to methionine. Homocysteine accumulates while SAMe is depleted."
You're newly under more stress since the lay off, and I am too this week actually, as I had a final exam in this tax preparer's class I'm taking and interviewed for the job I hoped would result from it....only to find out it would only be for 5 weeks IF I am hired. So, now I'm interviewing somewhere else, and may have to keep looking beyond that. So, I wonder, if my new eggs-in-the-evening thing is related to what Larry says there. Perhaps your lethargy is too.
> > The increased TMG actually feels BETTER than the SAMe...so far anyway. It's only been just this week that I've stepped up to approx. 800 mg 3x/day.
>
> That's great! :-)The weird thing is that I'm sleeping better, but this also means it's harder to get up in the morning. Is there an impact from TMG or some changed process related to what TMG does that may also affect cortisol or melatonin?
> I'm giving 2000 mg of TMG tid a try. Also boosting my lecithin and fish oil too and returning to tid with my multi (recommended bid). The only things I'm not raising now are minerals (Ca and Mg) and the grape seed extract. I'm doing this because I've fallen back into lethargy somewhat, though my head has reamined pretty clear. I believe this is likely at least partly due to being laid off from my job and not being able to IM with someone I have taken a fancy to. ;-)Well, sure, being laid off will affect your mood and energy level! That's a major stressor. My condolences. Will it be permanent, or is it due to some kind of slow down?
Magnesium is depleted by stress, btw. Also, re your t.i.d. multi -- how much copper are you taking now then? I don't take a multi because I don't want to get any additional copper. Copper is supposed to be more of a problem with depression for women than men, so perhaps it's not your concern. Interesting comments on copper: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030902/msgs/256493.html, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030604/msgs/231348.html
Posted by DSCH on November 22, 2003, at 10:30:55
In reply to Re: TMG/methyl donors/ Vitamin C » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 7:40:03
>
> > I wouldn't know and I am skeptical of all these people selling their own self-treatment schemes in books and such. My recommendation: pick Larry's brain. :-)
>
> Aaaackk! Wouldn't that hurt?Since there are no nerve ENDINGs in the brain, not at all actually. ;-)
Posted by JLx on November 23, 2003, at 4:46:02
In reply to Re: TMG feels good...short lived? » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 7:30:20
>
> > Based on your experience, I increased my TMG a lot and am having a good result! :)
>
> Way kewl!Yeah, it is. I just HAD to put that in my title. :) I've been out of work for nearly two years...in part because of depression paralyzing me more often than not, but also because even when I applied and interviewed, I wasn't hired. This job will only be through tax season, and not pay enough for me to save my house from foreclosure, but it's much better than nothing, I'll get a recommendation, have more current work experience, etc., so I'm really pleased. :)
Despite that, the last couple days have been somewhat disquieting.
Thursday was my best day on TMG. I've been more anxious since then. I woke up Friday night and couldn't get back to sleep so I tried some tryptophan. I ordered the horse stuff, and by my imprecise calculations, going by their directions, figure I took about 300 mg. I wanted a small amount because I think I am very sensitive to the dopamine/serotonin balance based on my noticing that 100 mg of 5-HTP felt WORSE than 50 mg and 50 mg felt better than none (since I've started tyrosine/phenylalanine). I did get back to sleep but didn't feel so good yesterday. More anxiety and lethargy. Despite the new job, which really made it noticeable. And my hand was shaking so bad in the interview I almost couldn't fill out the application! (I'm usually not this anxious and yes, take niacinamide already.)
Then I got really irritable in the afternoon, remembered DSCH's experience with TMG, and took some more magnesium...which worked. So, then I didn't take my third dose of TMG, went to bed really early because I was so tired, & woke up twice. (The previous couple days on TMG I slept through the night, which is a real rarity since I've started tyrosine.)
I was just reading back on the archives a bit, and correct me if I'm wrong....SAMe is in some way serotonergic? So, TMG is too? If so, then I need to take that into consideration in what I'm trying to achieve in the way of a dopamine/serotonin balance.
My joints are aching, I've got muscle tension in my neck and shoulders....along with the increased lethargy and anxiety (which feels like a knot in my chest), sleepy eyes yet unable to sleep...this reminds me of being on Zoloft.
So, I took 1,000 mg of tyrosine this morning, and will take a bit less TMG today and no methionine. (I've been taking 500 mg)
> > I didn't notice a boost until I took this higher amount. I feel more evened out, more energy and started sleeping better too.
>
> Too much makes me insomnic. Go figure.Is there a cumulative effect? I just hate these things where you feel good for a short time and then start to sink again. It feels like having the possiblity of a "normal life" dangled before my eyes only to have to snatched back just when I reach for it. I had had a job interview on Thursday that was actually much tougher than Saturday's and I just sailed through it with minimal job interview jitters and feeling sharp in my thinking answering questions.
> > I'm still taking 500 mg of tyrosine as I think I need that for my thyroid if nothing else.
>
> That's a reasonable amount for thyroid maintenance.This is such a grand thing to have corrected, I need to remember to count this blessing! :) Well, the selenium probably helps too, right? I didn't know that previously. I went to my doctor at one time because I was so tired and my hair was falling out -- and depressed -- armed with my low body temperature info, but when my thyroid test results were normal, that was the whole story for her...I had no thyroid problem. Maddening. It's no wonder so many of us have been forced to be our own doctors! And I must say, I have had much better success at it lately than they had. ;)
> > "Dosage: 3,000 milligrams a day, followed by a maintenance dose of 1,000 milligrams a day for up to three weeks."
> > http://www.holistic-online.com/Remedies/Depression/dep_nutrition2.htm#TMG
> >
> > 3 weeks, and then what?
>
> No reason to stop at three weeks. None.Great, glad to hear that.
> Just be alert to changes in responsiveness to dose. You may well need to tweak, or take occasional breaks. You'll get a gut reaction thing going, over time.
Does the adventure never stop? ;)
JL
Posted by JLx on November 23, 2003, at 4:53:17
In reply to Re: Another question, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 7:35:27
> > Btw, what do you think of the "don't take Vit C within 2 hours of B12" business?
> >
> > JL
>
> I can't for the life of me imagine a reason why. Do you eat meat and veggies together? Vitamin C and B-12 together, ya know?
>
> B-12 is stored, anyway. They're going to be together if you *ever* ingest vitamin C.
>
> Just my opinionated reply.Ok, I won't try to separate them then as that was just an added pain in the patoot. Is there any other "don't take this with that" advice that one should adhere to?
I've heard don't take manganese with magnesium, for instance. And don't take chromium with magnesium either. Correct?
I don't take a multi.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2003, at 7:30:25
In reply to I HAVE LANDED A JOB!!!! » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on November 23, 2003, at 4:46:02
> >
> > > Based on your experience, I increased my TMG a lot and am having a good result! :)
> >
> > Way kewl!
>
> Yeah, it is. I just HAD to put that in my title. :)Double way kewl!
> I've been out of work for nearly two years...in part because of depression paralyzing me more often than not, but also because even when I applied and interviewed, I wasn't hired. This job will only be through tax season, and not pay enough for me to save my house from foreclosure, but it's much better than nothing, I'll get a recommendation, have more current work experience, etc., so I'm really pleased. :)
>
> Despite that, the last couple days have been somewhat disquieting.
>
> Thursday was my best day on TMG. I've been more anxious since then. I woke up Friday night and couldn't get back to sleep so I tried some tryptophan. I ordered the horse stuff, and by my imprecise calculations, going by their directions, figure I took about 300 mg. I wanted a small amount because I think I am very sensitive to the dopamine/serotonin balance based on my noticing that 100 mg of 5-HTP felt WORSE than 50 mg and 50 mg felt better than none (since I've started tyrosine/phenylalanine). I did get back to sleep but didn't feel so good yesterday. More anxiety and lethargy. Despite the new job, which really made it noticeable. And my hand was shaking so bad in the interview I almost couldn't fill out the application! (I'm usually not this anxious and yes, take niacinamide already.)
>
> Then I got really irritable in the afternoon, remembered DSCH's experience with TMG, and took some more magnesium...which worked. So, then I didn't take my third dose of TMG, went to bed really early because I was so tired, & woke up twice. (The previous couple days on TMG I slept through the night, which is a real rarity since I've started tyrosine.)Be cautious about making projections about trends from short-term experience, OK? Sure, it's important....data points on the graph...but you've had some rather important and emotive events over the last few days, as well.
> I was just reading back on the archives a bit, and correct me if I'm wrong....SAMe is in some way serotonergic? So, TMG is too?
By implication (as a promoter of innate SAMe production), yes.
> If so, then I need to take that into consideration in what I'm trying to achieve in the way of a dopamine/serotonin balance.
Maybe you need a day off thinking....a mental health day....get some peace back in your mind.
> My joints are aching, I've got muscle tension in my neck and shoulders....along with the increased lethargy and anxiety (which feels like a knot in my chest), sleepy eyes yet unable to sleep...this reminds me of being on Zoloft.Or being wound up.
I'm just trying to suggest an alternative interpretation. Maybe you need to tweak. But maybe you need to snuggle in front of a fire (example, for illustration purposes).
> So, I took 1,000 mg of tyrosine this morning, and will take a bit less TMG today and no methionine. (I've been taking 500 mg)'kay.
> > > I didn't notice a boost until I took this higher amount. I feel more evened out, more energy and started sleeping better too.
> >
> > Too much makes me insomnic. Go figure.
>
> Is there a cumulative effect?I think there is....or the enzyme induction gets up to full speed. That's not a scientific conclusion, it's my opinion.
> I just hate these things where you feel good for a short time and then start to sink again.
Or you get used to it, increase your activity, and overdo it. Go gentle. Go, but go gentle.
> It feels like having the possiblity of a "normal life" dangled before my eyes only to have to snatched back just when I reach for it.
Expectation adjustments may be necessary, on an ongoing basis.
I do a daily "energy inventory", which assesses whether or not I have reserve energy, active energy (the feeling I can accomplish things today, right now), and the things on my "list of things to do". I then propose to myself a tentative energy budget for the day, and I check the inventory again as I move along. If I slip into reserve energy, I must reduce my activities, or I pay a heavy price (forced rest) while I rebuild my reserves. There will always be a list (of things to do). But sometimes addressing the list just isn't on my list at all.
I do this all subconsciously, or with minimal consciousness, but that's the mechanism that maximizes my own functioning.
> I had had a job interview on Thursday that was actually much tougher than Saturday's and I just sailed through it with minimal job interview jitters and feeling sharp in my thinking answering questions.
That's great. That's so empowering. Now, relax again, 'kay?
> > > I'm still taking 500 mg of tyrosine as I think I need that for my thyroid if nothing else.
> >
> > That's a reasonable amount for thyroid maintenance.
>
> This is such a grand thing to have corrected, I need to remember to count this blessing! :) Well, the selenium probably helps too, right?Well, ya, but....I just read an article (just published) that suggests that selenium has a complex effect on thyroid function, suppressing T3 in some people. You need selenium, absolutely, for proper thyroid function, but the new information suggests it is not an absolute benefit.
> I didn't know that previously. I went to my doctor at one time because I was so tired and my hair was falling out -- and depressed -- armed with my low body temperature info, but when my thyroid test results were normal, that was the whole story for her...I had no thyroid problem. Maddening.
More than maddening. It's friggin incompetency. The problem is in the standardization from which they developed the "normal range" of hormone levels. It has been *proven* that hypothyroid people were part of the normalization pool, but they still use the faulty numbers. In-friggin-credible, but true.
> It's no wonder so many of us have been forced to be our own doctors! And I must say, I have had much better success at it lately than they had. ;)
And, your doctor would attribute that to spontaneous remission, or use it as "proof" you weren't ill to begin with....
Isn't it incredibly empowering to take this into your own hands, in any case? I think so.
> > > "Dosage: 3,000 milligrams a day, followed by a maintenance dose of 1,000 milligrams a day for up to three weeks."
> > > http://www.holistic-online.com/Remedies/Depression/dep_nutrition2.htm#TMG
> > >
> > > 3 weeks, and then what?
> >
> > No reason to stop at three weeks. None.
>
> Great, glad to hear that.
> > Just be alert to changes in responsiveness to dose. You may well need to tweak, or take occasional breaks. You'll get a gut reaction thing going, over time.
>
> Does the adventure never stop? ;)
>
> JLNo, it doesn't, because we're not static ouselves. Welcome to the rollercoaster, eh?
Lar
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