![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 22 to 46 of 87. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2003, at 6:43:46
In reply to Lar/JLx, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988), posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 17:11:58
> "I respond to TMG within one hour. Just curious. I never used SAMe. Too expensive, and if you're prone to hyperhomocysteinemia, it's exactly the wrong thing to use".
>
> Lar---WHAT do you notice the TMG doing for you?Increased physical and mental energy, focus.
> I seem to notice very little from supplements...but not that glorious tryptophan though, THAT I notice!
>
> Lar, so are you saying that SAMe
> is WRONG to take if you have high homocysteine levels? Later!SAMe turns into homocysteine when its used up. Deal with the homocysteine, by turning it back into methionine, and maybe you don't need SAMe supps at all.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2003, at 6:44:43
In reply to Re: Lar/JLx, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988), posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 17:21:18
> I wonder why one of the nurses at Pfeiffer said for me to get some SAMe...maybe the methionine and TMG that I take would counter the homocysteine-elevating properties of the SAMe, while I'd still be getting the AD effect of the SAMe??
They're clutching at straws, dude. Trying to squeeze success out of failure. IMHO.
Posted by JLx on November 12, 2003, at 16:11:13
In reply to Re: Another question » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 11, 2003, at 9:07:07
> >
> > > > I'm not sure I understood that distinction about the slow SAMe cycle, but what I concluded was, not knowing if I'm a "slow cycler" or not that I'd hedge my bets and take both TMG AND methionine...using the TMG to counteract homocysteine for one thing, especially if I decrease folic acid.
> > >
> > > Yes. Good idea.
>
>
> > On that, any idea what might be a reasonable amount of each to take...to achieve a SAMe-like result without raising homocysteine too high? (I can't afford the blood test at this time.)
>
> First, you won't raise homocysteine, if you're taking TMG.
>
> The dose of TMG that is effective varies substantially in different people. I can't tolerate more than a couple grams, tops. And I can't take it every day. I take 500-1000 mg, occasionally. But I know people who take eight or ten grams, every day.Ok, I know I have to experiment with how it feels but wrt homocysteine, what if there is an imbalance between the homocysteine-increasing effect of methionine and the homocysteine-lowering effect of TMG? Iow, do I have to make sure to take "x" amount of TMG if I take "xx" amount of methionine?
(Forgive me if that's something you've already addressed -- I'm just not "getting" this in terms of the chemistry here.)
Re previous post, just to be clear on this too, choline is NOT contraindicated for the undermethylated....despite what Dr. Walsh says?
Thanks,
JL
Posted by JLx on November 12, 2003, at 16:25:54
In reply to Re: DMAE, choline, TMG » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 11:20:41
> As I consume virtually no eggs and milk, I have started taking lecithin which has both phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylinositol. I started fish oil at the same time. I noticed a modest improvement from this in visual clarity and greater tendency to feel "grounded" in the present objective/subjective outer reality.
Hmm...interesting. I really need to isolate my "trials" more so I can evaluate such things, but I've been so desperate to feel better and get more functional, that I just threw everything at my brain all at once. (Which worked rather well, actually, but I'm nervous about the longer-run.)
> Regarding inositol: I took it for a number of weeks in August. I had what I first believed to be a quite strange reaction (but in the end, postive) to the first dose, however I think that experience was more likely a result of the "Sacksian" cumulative tinkering I had been doing on myself up to that point (I would recommend seeing the deNero/Williams movie and getting the book "Awakenings"). The parallel was erie enough for me to worry that I would run into an analgous predicament to his post-encephalitic patients on L-DOPA, but fortunately most of those concerns of mine have faded in the months since then as things stabilized.
I thought that movie was hideously depressing, but so far I'm the only person I've met who thought so. It reminded me too much of how I would think an anti-depressant (or whatever) was working, I would wake up out of my depressive lethargy for a time feeling like I had my life/self back, and then sink back down again, feeling even more hopeless.
> Yes, although I had great successes with DLPA, protein powder drinks, and L-tyrosine (at various times), they were "brittle" and I was dismayed at finding it necessary to treat myself at such short intervals. I also found it unconvincing that amino acid metabolism was my root problem. So I eventually was brought around to reconsider methylation, which I had discounted due to a less than impressive response to TMG (pre-Mg).
Well, I am hopeful too that this may be a key factor for me too, since I had such a positive reaction to SAMe. I'm going to stick with the tyrosine too for a while, as I believe it's helping other things too, such as my thyroid.
Thanks for the input. :)
JL
Posted by JLx on November 12, 2003, at 16:28:07
In reply to JLx, Confused about methylation., posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 16:59:44
> "SAMe pooping out was very crushing to my hopes of realizing a dream for natural remedies in place of ADs".
>
> >>>> Have you tried tryptophan?No, but I'm thinking about it since you've all been the guinea pigs for the horse source. ;) I've been taking 50 mg of 5-HTP at night with a small bit of melatonin which does help some because I notice if I DON'T take it. So perhaps tryptophan would be better.
Does it help you sleep?
Posted by JLx on November 12, 2003, at 16:32:47
In reply to Lar/JLx, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988), posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 17:11:58
> Lar---WHAT do you notice the TMG doing for you?
> JLx, what do you notice also?Well, I don't notice all that much...but I'm just at the beginning of my experimentation. The first day I thought it gave me a "rush" feeling, like if I'd eaten sugar, but then the next day it seemed to make me feel more tired. Now that it's been a few days, I don't notice much difference at all. I think I may try increasing it now some.
Posted by McPac on November 12, 2003, at 20:07:26
In reply to Re: Lar/JLx, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988) » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2003, at 6:44:43
"They're clutching at straws, dude. Trying to squeeze success out of failure. IMHO."
>>>>>>>>>>> Lar, I was looking back at some papers that Pfeiffer had given me way back when I initially went to them last year. One of the papers was one of their informational-type papers on high histamine (undermethylation)individuals and the supplements that they would typically use to treat that person. And of course many of those supplements I am on...like calcium, magnesium, methionine, B6, vitamins A, C, D, etc..Now, it also says, "Additional supplements include 5htp or SAMe; compatible herbs may also be prescribed which include SJW, Kava Kava and inositol".
Now, as I've mentioned before, I think the reason that they did not put me on 5htp was because I'm taking an ssri and they did not want to mix the two (the paper mentions 5htp but not tryptophan...they may very well have patients on trypto though, the paper does not include ALL possible supps that they use). Anyway, my point is that no doubt because of the ssri, they didn't want me on 5htp (or tryptophan). Hence, the MAIN ingredient for me (tryptophan!..maybe 5htp would work as well, maybe not) has been taken out of the treatment plan! But it's like their hands have been tied, i.e. "well, we'd like to give you the trypto or 5htp but we CAN'T due to the ssri"....so it's not much surprise to me that their treatment plan isn't working when they CAN'T even follow their treatment plan! Think of it this way, if I showed up there and was NOT on an ssri, and they would have been able to give me the same supps ONLY WITH trypto (or 5htp), then I would have experienced the MUCH better response and then I'd be on these boards telling everybody that the Pfeiffer folks were the greatest thing since sliced bread! So their hands were tied, they could only give me all of the 'weak' supps (my term, meaning they didn't provide too much of an effect). I remember way back when I first saw my treatment plan, I said to myself right then "what the heck? these supps (like vitamins A, C, D, etc.) aren't going to do anything....they're not enough to lift my mood significantly)...and those 'weak' supps (for me) haven't done much...but if they COULD have given me trypto with those then I WOULD have felt a big difference and then they'd look like geniuses. So all they've been ABLE to do is give me more methionine, a little more TMG...which of course hasn't made much difference at all for me...but that's ALL they can do because of the ssri. Hence, no success because the MAIN ingredient, the NECESSARY "KEY", they can't give me. I guess what I'm saying is that if someone came to you, and you knew just the right supps to put them on to get them feeling better, only due to a medication that they were taking (possible terrible fatal reaction, liability/lawsuit concerns), you could not risk putting them on the MAIN "KEY" ingredient---thus they may not feel any better...and although you knew which ingredient you badly wanted them to try, you couldn't give them that one...so all you could do was keep tinkering with the weak ones that you could give them, hoping that some good would result. Yes, I really believe that Pfeiffer's hands are tied. What's funny is that for years I've wanted to try trypto...the serotonin enhancer....but couldn't because of ssri's.....and now that I've felt it's glorious effects, I'm on TWO drugs (ssri and lithium) that can bring on that CRAP serotonin syndrome baloney....I don't want to risk getting tossed in the psych ward, missing work for a month, etc., due to that crap.....I just don't know if I should try to reduce my ssri a great deal and see if daily trypto could take it's place (right now I don't feel like going through the withdrawal/symptom-return H*ll if it didn't work out ...I don't know if the trypto will be enough by itself to replace the ssri......I'm thinking out loud but the dilemma sucks!!!! Oh well, at least typing all this out helps me clarify some things.....take care Lar! I hope you've been feeling well! I often wish that I could give YOU some answers to YOUR problems...instead of you always helping everybody else....I still don't get how you can have all this knowledge in your head Hoover...do you have a photographic memory? Later!!!!!
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:22:23
In reply to DSCH ....how does TMG feel to you? » McPac, posted by JLx on November 12, 2003, at 16:32:47
Since I've been on TMG I don't feel the need for any of the amino acids I have taken before. I don't suffer from "fog", "clutter", or "dirtiness" in my head (those are three different things... the fog is the worst), I don't fatigue mentally as easily, and my mood is less prone to sink and be accompanied by highly negative and cynical reasoning.
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:37:33
In reply to Lar/JLx, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988), posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 17:11:58
> Lar, so are you saying that SAMe
> is WRONG to take if you have high homocysteine levels? Later!I'm not Lar, but yes, SAMe is bad if you have high homocysteine levels because the supplemental SAMe, once it donates its methyl-group, becomes more homocysteine in your system. You need to address the homocysteine first (via TMG or methylcobalamin), only adding on SAMe if the problem lies in converting methionine to SAMe. Magnesium and things to boost the body's production of ATP (NADH?) would be worth considering first as these are what are needed to convert methionine to SAMe.
YMMV. :-)
Posted by JLx on November 13, 2003, at 4:40:40
In reply to Re: DSCH ....how does TMG feel to you? » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:22:23
> Since I've been on TMG I don't feel the need for any of the amino acids I have taken before. I don't suffer from "fog", "clutter", or "dirtiness" in my head (those are three different things... the fog is the worst), I don't fatigue mentally as easily, and my mood is less prone to sink and be accompanied by highly negative and cynical reasoning.
Very cool!! :) How long before you felt this effect?
I've been taking 400 mg in a "homocysteine regulator" combo that I'd forgotten included TMG, for a couple weeks, plus the additional 5-600 mg/day just recently. I can't say I've had a noticeable effect yet.
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 11:11:23
In reply to Re: DSCH ....how does TMG feel to you? » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 13, 2003, at 4:40:40
> > Since I've been on TMG I don't feel the need for any of the amino acids I have taken before. I don't suffer from "fog", "clutter", or "dirtiness" in my head (those are three different things... the fog is the worst), I don't fatigue mentally as easily, and my mood is less prone to sink and be accompanied by highly negative and cynical reasoning.
>
> Very cool!! :) How long before you felt this effect?I dropped both tyrosine and 5-HTP after deciding it was worth trying it out. I didn't miss them at all. I had been on TMG for only a few days (you can see from my posts... my TMG/temper post was the first night with both TMG and magnesium, then I wrote the "experiment" post the evening before I dropped the amino acids).
> I've been taking 400 mg in a "homocysteine regulator" combo that I'd forgotten included TMG, for a couple weeks, plus the additional 5-600 mg/day just recently. I can't say I've had a noticeable effect yet.
To keep this up I think I need at least 3000 mg/day. I might give 4000-6000 a shot sometime, if just to find out where the upper limit is and then back down from it. As Larry says, sensitivity can vary by orders of magnitude. If you are over-methylated, TMG should make things worse.
Posted by McPac on November 13, 2003, at 15:08:18
In reply to SAMe and homocystiene » McPac, posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:37:33
"only adding on SAMe if the problem lies in converting methionine to SAMe"
>>>>>>>>>>>> But how would one know if they were having problems converting methionine to SAMe? I don't know if I'm having that problem or not.
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 17:18:45
In reply to DSCH, Re: SAMe and homocystiene, posted by McPac on November 13, 2003, at 15:08:18
> "only adding on SAMe if the problem lies in converting methionine to SAMe"
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> But how would one know if they were having problems converting methionine to SAMe? I don't know if I'm having that problem or not.Good question. I could sit here and say 'run through the other possibilities and then do that particular experiment' but that would be rather blithe. What are the 'other possibilities"?
Since it appears the HRI-PTC regimen isn't going the full nine yards you should have the right to at least a sit down with someone higher up in their 'food chain' than a nurse. If you are falling through the cracks in their treatment paradigm, you should be brought to the attention of the 'brains' on the staff, for both your good and their own.
Posted by JLx on November 15, 2003, at 5:17:49
In reply to Larry, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988), posted by McPac on November 12, 2003, at 20:07:26
>What's funny is that for years I've wanted to try trypto...the serotonin enhancer....but couldn't because of ssri's.....and now that I've felt it's glorious effects, I'm on TWO drugs (ssri and lithium) that can bring on that CRAP serotonin syndrome baloney....I don't want to risk getting tossed in the psych ward, missing work for a month, etc., due to that crap.....I just don't know if I should try to reduce my ssri a great deal and see if daily trypto could take it's place (right now I don't feel like going through the withdrawal/symptom-return H*ll if it didn't work out ...I don't know if the trypto will be enough by itself to replace the ssri......
Hi McPac,
Just a little anecdote about serotonin syndrome...
A friend of mine who lives in Canada and was prescribed Tryptan (tryptophan) who was also on Serzone and Ritalin started taking more Tryptan when he became more depressed, and more...and more. He didn't see he was in trouble until his world crashed around him. He made in inappropriate joke in his classroom (he's a teacher in h.s.) that's cost him his job and possibly his teaching career altogether. :(
I hope you're being careful.
JL
Posted by JLx on November 15, 2003, at 5:20:05
In reply to Re: DSCH ....how does TMG feel to you? » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:22:23
> Since I've been on TMG I don't feel the need for any of the amino acids I have taken before. I don't suffer from "fog", "clutter", or "dirtiness" in my head (those are three different things... the fog is the worst), I don't fatigue mentally as easily, and my mood is less prone to sink and be accompanied by highly negative and cynical reasoning.
That sounds great. So far I don't notice those glorious effects. Did you quit the aminos and THEN take TMG?
Posted by JLx on November 15, 2003, at 5:29:20
In reply to Re: DSCH ....how does TMG feel to you? » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 11:11:23
> I dropped both tyrosine and 5-HTP after deciding it was worth trying it out. I didn't miss them at all. I had been on TMG for only a few days (you can see from my posts... my TMG/temper post was the first night with both TMG and magnesium, then I wrote the "experiment" post the evening before I dropped the amino acids).Oh, that answers the question in my previous post.
> To keep this up I think I need at least 3000 mg/day. I might give 4000-6000 a shot sometime, if just to find out where the upper limit is and then back down from it. As Larry says, sensitivity can vary by orders of magnitude. If you are over-methylated, TMG should make things worse.
Is it possible that one could BECOME overmethylated by taking all these methyl donors at once?
Also, I found this recently and thought it interesting. (This site looks to be a promotional one for the book "Methyl Magic". Too bad the author hasn't kept updating it.) http://www.methylmagic.com/research.html
"It is best to take vitamin C at a different time of day (two hours away) from the time you take folic acid or vitamin B12."
I haven't been doing that at all. I wonder how much of a difference it might make.
Posted by DSCH on November 15, 2003, at 5:31:07
In reply to Re: DSCH ....how does TMG feel to you? » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 15, 2003, at 5:20:05
> > Since I've been on TMG I don't feel the need for any of the amino acids I have taken before. I don't suffer from "fog", "clutter", or "dirtiness" in my head (those are three different things... the fog is the worst), I don't fatigue mentally as easily, and my mood is less prone to sink and be accompanied by highly negative and cynical reasoning.
>
> That sounds great. So far I don't notice those glorious effects. Did you quit the aminos and THEN take TMG?You're up early. ;-)
No, it was the other way around. Using my posts I can say that I started back on TMG on the 10/24 and then cut the aminos on (I think) 10/28.
The "why am I so agitated?" post on 10/24 (evening)...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/272902.htmlThe "OK, lest test this theory out" post on 10/27 (evening)...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/274063.html
Posted by DSCH on November 15, 2003, at 5:34:36
In reply to Re: TMG/methyl donors/ Vitamin C » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 15, 2003, at 5:29:20
> > To keep this up I think I need at least 3000 mg/day. I might give 4000-6000 a shot sometime, if just to find out where the upper limit is and then back down from it. As Larry says, sensitivity can vary by orders of magnitude. If you are over-methylated, TMG should make things worse.
>
> Is it possible that one could BECOME overmethylated by taking all these methyl donors at once?I would think it's very possible.
As for timing vitamin C and folic acid/B12 doses, I don't know.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 15, 2003, at 7:21:26
In reply to Re: Another question » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on November 12, 2003, at 16:11:13
> > The dose of TMG that is effective varies substantially in different people. I can't tolerate more than a couple grams, tops. And I can't take it every day. I take 500-1000 mg, occasionally. But I know people who take eight or ten grams, every day.
>
> Ok, I know I have to experiment with how it feels but wrt homocysteine, what if there is an imbalance between the homocysteine-increasing effect of methionine and the homocysteine-lowering effect of TMG? Iow, do I have to make sure to take "x" amount of TMG if I take "xx" amount of methionine?If you're otherwise "normal", you will not develop hyperhomocysteinemia (high blood homocysteine) because the B12-dependent pathway back to methionine dominates. I would just monitor the psych effect of TMG, and not worry about homocysteine.
> (Forgive me if that's something you've already addressed -- I'm just not "getting" this in terms of the chemistry here.)
I think you're "getting" it quite well.
> Re previous post, just to be clear on this too, choline is NOT contraindicated for the undermethylated....despite what Dr. Walsh says?
>
> Thanks,
>
> JLUndermethylation goes along with oxidative stress, in my opinion, so I would support choline supps, but, I would recommend that soya lecithin is the source, rather than choline per se. Every time a supp is tried, it should be seen as an experiment to determine how *you* respond to the substance. I've seen far too many paradoxical responses (the opposite of what is expected) to say that there is a blanket answer, a simple rule to follow. That's where I have problems with Pfeiffer, Walsh, et al.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 15, 2003, at 7:27:49
In reply to Larry, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988), posted by McPac on November 12, 2003, at 20:07:26
> "They're clutching at straws, dude. Trying to squeeze success out of failure. IMHO."
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Lar, I was looking back at some papers that Pfeiffer had given me way back when I initially went to them last year. One of the papers was one of their informational-type papers on high histamine (undermethylation)individuals and the supplements that they would typically use to treat that person. And of course many of those supplements I am on...like calcium, magnesium, methionine, B6, vitamins A, C, D, etc..Now, it also says, "Additional supplements include 5htp or SAMe; compatible herbs may also be prescribed which include SJW, Kava Kava and inositol".
>
> Now, as I've mentioned before, I think the reason that they did not put me on 5htp was because I'm taking an ssri and they did not want to mix the two (the paper mentions 5htp but not tryptophan...they may very well have patients on trypto though, the paper does not include ALL possible supps that they use). Anyway, my point is that no doubt because of the ssri, they didn't want me on 5htp (or tryptophan). Hence, the MAIN ingredient for me (tryptophan!..maybe 5htp would work as well, maybe not) has been taken out of the treatment plan! But it's like their hands have been tied, i.e. "well, we'd like to give you the trypto or 5htp but we CAN'T due to the ssri"....so it's not much surprise to me that their treatment plan isn't working when they CAN'T even follow their treatment plan! Think of it this way, if I showed up there and was NOT on an ssri, and they would have been able to give me the same supps ONLY WITH trypto (or 5htp), then I would have experienced the MUCH better response and then I'd be on these boards telling everybody that the Pfeiffer folks were the greatest thing since sliced bread! So their hands were tied, they could only give me all of the 'weak' supps (my term, meaning they didn't provide too much of an effect). I remember way back when I first saw my treatment plan, I said to myself right then "what the heck? these supps (like vitamins A, C, D, etc.) aren't going to do anything....they're not enough to lift my mood significantly)...and those 'weak' supps (for me) haven't done much...but if they COULD have given me trypto with those then I WOULD have felt a big difference and then they'd look like geniuses. So all they've been ABLE to do is give me more methionine, a little more TMG...which of course hasn't made much difference at all for me...but that's ALL they can do because of the ssri. Hence, no success because the MAIN ingredient, the NECESSARY "KEY", they can't give me. I guess what I'm saying is that if someone came to you, and you knew just the right supps to put them on to get them feeling better, only due to a medication that they were taking (possible terrible fatal reaction, liability/lawsuit concerns), you could not risk putting them on the MAIN "KEY" ingredient---thus they may not feel any better...and although you knew which ingredient you badly wanted them to try, you couldn't give them that one...so all you could do was keep tinkering with the weak ones that you could give them, hoping that some good would result. Yes, I really believe that Pfeiffer's hands are tied. What's funny is that for years I've wanted to try trypto...the serotonin enhancer....but couldn't because of ssri's.....and now that I've felt it's glorious effects, I'm on TWO drugs (ssri and lithium) that can bring on that CRAP serotonin syndrome baloney....Lithium doesn't cause serotonin syndrome. Do the experiment, dude. Take tryptophan, and cut back on the SSRI.
> I don't want to risk getting tossed in the psych ward, missing work for a month, etc., due to that crap.....
You won't. You pay too much attention to let things get out of hand.
> I just don't know if I should try to reduce my ssri a great deal and see if daily trypto could take it's place (right now I don't feel like going through the withdrawal/symptom-return H*ll if it didn't work out ...I don't know if the trypto will be enough by itself to replace the ssri......I'm thinking out loud but the dilemma sucks!!!! Oh well, at least typing all this out helps me clarify some things.....take care Lar! I hope you've been feeling well! I often wish that I could give YOU some answers to YOUR problems...instead of you always helping everybody else....I still don't get how you can have all this knowledge in your head Hoover...do you have a photographic memory? Later!!!!!
No, I do not have a photographic memory. I have an organized memory. I link things well. If something doesn't fit with other stuff, I fill in the connection. That's why I love questions. It helps me organize things better.
Lar
Posted by JLx on November 15, 2003, at 7:45:49
In reply to Re: Another question » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 15, 2003, at 7:21:26
> If you're otherwise "normal", you will not develop hyperhomocysteinemia (high blood homocysteine) because the B12-dependent pathway back to methionine dominates. I would just monitor the psych effect of TMG, and not worry about homocysteine.
Well, I don't feel very normal ;), but I take your point.
> Undermethylation goes along with oxidative stress, in my opinion, so I would support choline supps, but, I would recommend that soya lecithin is the source, rather than choline per se. Every time a supp is tried, it should be seen as an experiment to determine how *you* respond to the substance. I've seen far too many paradoxical responses (the opposite of what is expected) to say that there is a blanket answer, a simple rule to follow. That's where I have problems with Pfeiffer, Walsh, et al.
I've taken lecithin quite often and never noticed any adverse effect. What gave me pause that Walsh and company might be right about the these things, such as folic acid, is that I never felt particularly better taking a B Complex either...so I wondered if it was the FA as they say.
I hope you comment on what the Acu-cell site had to say about B complex, in the other thread. http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/279947.html
He also had a lot to say about mineral ratios that I found interesting. http://www.acu-cell.com/mr.html
Thanks,
JL
Posted by McPac on November 15, 2003, at 14:11:39
In reply to Re: Larry, » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on November 15, 2003, at 7:27:49
"Lithium doesn't cause serotonin syndrome"
>>>>>>>>>> Lar, this is what I was referring to re: lithium (saw this in one of your posts last week on serotonin syndrome):
"The drugs which we know most frequently contribute to this condition are the combining of MAOIs with Prozac (this should also include the other SSRIs) or other drugs that have a powerful effect upon serotonin, ie, clomipramine (Anafranil), trazadone (Deseryl), etc. The combination of lithium with these selective serotonergic agents has been implicated in enhancing the serotonin syndrome. The tricyclic antidepressants, lithium, MAOIs, SSRIs, ECT (electric shock treatment), tryptophan, and the serotonin agonists (fenfluramine) all enhance serotonin neurotransmission and can contribute to this syndrome. Anything which will raise the level of serotonin can bring on this hyperserotonergic condition".
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 16, 2003, at 9:56:52
In reply to Re: Larry,, posted by McPac on November 15, 2003, at 14:11:39
> "Lithium doesn't cause serotonin syndrome"
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Lar, this is what I was referring to re: lithium (saw this in one of your posts last week on serotonin syndrome):
>
> "The drugs which we know most frequently contribute to this condition are the combining of MAOIs with Prozac (this should also include the other SSRIs) or other drugs that have a powerful effect upon serotonin, ie, clomipramine (Anafranil), trazadone (Deseryl), etc. The combination of lithium with these selective serotonergic agents has been implicated in enhancing the serotonin syndrome. The tricyclic antidepressants, lithium, MAOIs, SSRIs, ECT (electric shock treatment), tryptophan, and the serotonin agonists (fenfluramine) all enhance serotonin neurotransmission and can contribute to this syndrome. Anything which will raise the level of serotonin can bring on this hyperserotonergic condition".My mistake. I was wrong about the risk of serotonin syndrome when SSRIs (particularly Prozac) are combined with lithium. Thanks for catching that....
Lar
Posted by tealady on November 16, 2003, at 21:59:28
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » McPac, posted by DSCH on November 10, 2003, at 20:38:47
> > "A small percentage of persons with sufficient dietary methionine cannot efficiently produce SAMe --- These persons need supplemental SAMe, and not methionine or TMG and are the exception to the rule."
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>> I wonder if I am in this small percentage? Pfeiffer recently increased my methionine to 2,500 mg/day, as 1,500 mg/day for MANY months wasn't doing anything....in this small % of folks, WHY is their methionine not converted to SAMe?
>
> Not enough ATP or magnesium to spare from other duties?A deficency in the enzymes that accomplish this task?
Perhaps too much selenium or too little?
RTF] MECHANISMS OF SELENIUM METHYLATION AND TOXICITY IN MICE TREATED ...
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... These results suggest that the depression of selenium methylation ability resulting
from inactivation of SAM synthetase and selenium methylating enzyme(s) was ...http://www.google.com.au/search?q=cache:o62M9jkpWOsJ:www-tiresias.bio.unipd.it/HomeSele/poster/9(Miscellanea)/Hasegawa.rtf+sam+selenium&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
ENHANCEMENT OF SELENOCYSTINE TOXICITY CAUSED BY THE INHIBITION OF SELENIUM METHYLATION
T. Hasegawa1, T. Okuno2, K. Nakamuro2 and Y. Seko1
1Yamanashi Institute of Environmental Sciences, Fujiyoshida, Yamanashi, Japan2Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Setsunan University, Hirakata, Osaka, Japan.
We have already reported that the liver was damaged in mice treated orally with selenocystine (SeCys). The present study was carried out to elucidate the relationship between hepatic toxicity and selenium methylation in mice after repeated oral administration of SeCys (10 or 20 mg/kg) for 10 days. The animals exposed to the high dose showed a significant rise of aspartate aminotransferase (AST) and alanine aminotransferase (ALT) activities in plasma. Urinary total selenium increased with SeCys dose. Although content of trimethylselenonium ion (TMSe) as the end-product of selenium methylation in urine amounted to 85 % of total selenium at the low dose, it was only 25 % at the high dose. In the liver, the high dose resulted in inactivation of selenium methylating enzyme(s) and decrease in S-adenosylmethionine (SAM) level due to the inhibition of SAM synthetase activity. To determine whether hepatic toxicity was enhanced by the depression of selenium methylation, mice were injected with periodate-oxidized adenosine (PAD; 100 mol/kg, i.p.), a known potent inhibitor of the SAM-dependent methyltransferase, 30 min before oral treatment of SeCys (10, 20 or 50 mg/kg). Hepatic toxicity induced by SeCys was significantly enhanced by the PAD-pretreatment. In vitro experiment was carried out to determined a chemical species of SeCys metabolite which inactivated the SAM synthetase. The enzyme was strongly inhibited by selenide, which is a precursor of methylated selenium compounds. These results suggest that the depression of selenium methylation ability resulting from inactivation of SAM synthetase and selenium methylating enzyme(s) was caused by selenide in mice following repeated oral administration of a toxic dose of SeCys. The excess selenide accumulated by depression of selenium methylation may be involved in the liver toxicity caused by SeCys.
----------http://www.genome.ad.jp/dbget-bin/show_pathway?hsa00450+27430
--------------
Looks like selenium is in there somewhere?Jan
Posted by tealady on November 16, 2003, at 22:26:28
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on November 11, 2003, at 7:22:16
>
> > > (I had a great result with SAMe, but found it too expensive and when I was taking it as my only anti-depressant remedy, that it pooped out after about 2 months.) I recall Larry's explanation to Ron Hill re why this might happen and concluded that with methionine, it might not.
> >
> > Let's hope.
>
> Indeed! SAMe pooping out was very crushing to my hopes of realizing a dream for natural remedies in place of ADs.JLx,
I guess this means you tried SAMe before and it pooped out? I haven't come aross that old thread as yet.
I was thinking of trying SAMe one day too.Some on the thyroid forum have been taking SAME for a long time with no poop out. (Note -one of them was on antiD's before and used SAMe to help wean off). Most also take calc/magnesium too.
So perhaps the tyrosine and say 63mcg to 200mcg Selenomethionine form of selenium(Selenium 25mg to 75mg) together with the SAMe might work.
Let us know how you go.I'm going to start St John's Wort this afternoon..
If that doesn't work its SAMeI started DHEA last week.. Are you taking it?
Jan
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