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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:28:07
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:19:21
I think the more Dr. Bob see's that it bothers a lot of babblers, the more likely he might change things for the better. (maybe wishful thinking, I know)
Well I HAVE A DREAM! Well, okay, don't want to get carried away, now.
I really think talking about this will help and that is what I am trying to do.
Posted by ClearSkies on January 18, 2007, at 10:30:13
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 9:52:05
> >> Wasn't it you who asked about mothers? My understanding is that civility guidelines don't apply to mothers unless they are known to be Babblers. (Thank heavens. And no, my mother does not Babble.)
>
> Well how do we know that our mothers aren't on the site? Or how do we know that it isn't offending other mothers who read about it? We have protection from saying things against the president, and all other kinds of stuff, and the president probably doesn't read here. So the rules are not clear, I believe. But like I said the issue is sucide threats against another babbler. I know the rules now, I just think they need to be better and different. That is why I am posting about this.
>
What if we post about traumas we have suffered at the hands of others, and they may be posters here themselves? I don't think that the analogy of posting about our mothers and have them possibly be posters here as well would be any different.There was a very worthwhile thread long ago, initiated by the esteemed Larry Hoover, that addressed trigger notices on posts. I don't understand why, if certain subjects are found triggering, those posts are not avoided. Isn't that the point of putting a trigger notice in the heading in the first place? I think that posts regarding suicide would certainly fall under this guideline. If posts regarding suicide are triggering, then the solution would be to not read them at all.
Surely this is the best protection we can give each other?ClearSkies
Posted by Dinah on January 18, 2007, at 10:34:24
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:19:21
> What can we do better when a babbler threatenes sucide against another memember.
I guess I haven't been very helpful because I thought I had posted several times that Dr. Bob has already made the changes you requested to address this issue.
So I'll bow out.
Posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:39:44
In reply to Re: Well what if? ***TRIGGER CSA, SUICIDE** » Happyflower, posted by ClearSkies on January 18, 2007, at 10:30:13
well I am again not talking about regular sucide posts, they don't trigger me, even though I know it does for others.
I am talking about someone threatening sucide if another babbler doesn' t comply to the wishes of the sucidal poster. I am not just talking about posts, I am also talking about doing it in chat and doing through babblemail.
Suicide posts I believe are a good thing, and good way to receive some support and help, as long as they are warned with a trigger for other who it does upset. But again, I am talking abotu direct threats against another babbler. Like for example I said to you, I am going to kill myself if you don't post to me clearskies. Or if we are taking in chat and you are ignoring me for your own protection, and I say I am going to kill myself if you don't respond to me Clearskies. OR I send you babblemails that say,you really make me upset that you are ignoring me, it makes me want to OD. This is what I am talking about. Do you see the difference?
Posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:42:11
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Happyflower, posted by Dinah on January 18, 2007, at 10:34:24
I don't mean to upset you Dinah, I do see your posts about the changes, and I do appreciate that. All I am trying to say is that it isn't good enough in my view. I feel something better needs to be done.
Posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:45:12
In reply to Not trying to upset you » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:42:11
This is why I think it would be best for Dr. Bob to address this as not to upset any deputies or posters.
Posted by muffled on January 18, 2007, at 11:09:00
In reply to Re: Not trying to upset you, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:45:12
> This is why I think it would be best for Dr. Bob to address this as not to upset any deputies or posters.
**Yeah, this is a tough one.
Sorta the diff btwn. your friend saying I hate you, or waving a knife round saying I gonna do it if you don't do what I want.
I think its the degree of seriousness thats a issue here.
There's pressure, and then there's COERCION.Main Entry: co·erce
1 : to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious -- W. R. Inge>
2 : to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>
3 : to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>
synonym see FORCE(love that dictionary thing now I found it)
So mebbe if there's pressure, its a DNpressure.
If its coercion, then if there's been any warnings, then it should be considered the direct attack it is and receive a block.
(1 week of course, STILL don't beleive in the escalation business-too fast)
Posted by muffled on January 18, 2007, at 11:15:04
In reply to pressure vs. coerce, posted by muffled on January 18, 2007, at 11:09:00
where the hell are you Bob?
How are you feeling bout this?
Are you feeling upset or pressured?
I'm sorry if so.
But I feel its not fair for you to expect your deputies to deal with something like this. Not fair at all.
Damn this is so complicated cuz people we care bout are getting hurt, and its not so much bout them, as the whole issue we discussing.
Muffled
Posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 11:53:02
In reply to pressure vs. coerce, posted by muffled on January 18, 2007, at 11:09:00
Thanks muffled - there is a fine distinction. It's what i tried to say before, but it didn't flesh out as well you did...
Posted by Honore on January 18, 2007, at 12:15:03
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce » muffled, posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 11:53:02
I want to say that I'm very sorry that Happyflower has been so deeply hurt and angered by the situation that lead to her block, and by being blocked.
I need to say one thing, here, that I feel very strongly when reading this series of posts.
I feel that this problem should have been dealt with privately, through an email to Bob, with the information and the description of those things that HF felt were pressuring or whatever word you choose to use.
I've been in situations where I was, to use a word, ganged up on by other people, and this thread, even though I respect the feelings of those who are upset, and don't want to question their motives-- which I think are good-- really feels to me to have a quality of ganging up.
This whole topic and HF's feelings about it were discussed at length before the block. and HF was several times, in my presence, on the chat advised to email Bob privately (as we are asked to do, when the behavior of other posters strikes us as uncivil or otherwise upacceptable).
I know that HF may have important reasons, in herself, for doing this publicly, and I again don't mean to say that these are not to feel safer, and are not primarily to try to make Babble feel safer in general.
But honestly, I don't think this is fair to Deneb.
We all know that Deneb is personally being attacked here. We all know that this ia bout Deneb. To say that it isn't, and to continue to publicly repudiate Deneb's conduct over and over, when the issue has been settled-- as far as the administrative actions on Babble are concerned-- strikes me as having a very unfortunate effect.
If Deneb did anything really untoward after the earlier things she did-- then please, HF, communicate it to Bob privately.
I really am sorry that you're still so hurt and not at peace about what happened. But I do think that Deneb is very sorry for what she did-- I do think she's trying to learn from it.
Remember, it is hard to change and to learn from mistakes. You don't need to forgive or forget, or be friends with her, or be comfortable with her. But please, continue this privately with Bob, or Dinah, or others.
Maybe you can reestablish some sense of safety in that way. You can BMail me-- if you want, too.
But please all of us, let's try to understand how it might feel to someone if so many people are talking about her, in such an angry way, in the third person (for the most part).
Honore
Posted by Poet on January 18, 2007, at 12:28:54
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes, posted by Deneb on January 17, 2007, at 23:50:04
> Can someone point out to me the words that are provocative and distressing? I want the actual quotes. I do believe I was civil. Even if they really are provocative and distressing, it's not uncivil to be provocative or distressing.
Deneb, I felt that in this post you weren't being provocative, but what you said was distressing. What you wrote isn't uncivil, but I perceived it as threatening. If the link doesn't work it's on the eating board.
Poet
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/eating/20061124/msgs/706825.html
Posted by Honore on January 18, 2007, at 12:31:32
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce, posted by Honore on January 18, 2007, at 12:15:03
I hope that my post didn't seem to say that anyone here is attacking Deneb, or ganging up on her.
If it sounded that way, I didn't mean it in that way. Perhaps I didn't use the right I statements.
I meant that the cumulative effect of so many different individual statements felt to me as if it had that effect-- and that it also seemed to me that we were talking about Deneb, even if not everyone referred to her. If I was mistaken about that, I apologize to anyone who I misunderstood.
Maybe we need more immediate administrative response sometimes, and it feels, again, to me, as though when things are urgent, and there is no administrative response, sometimes that becomes upsetting-- in and of itself-- to me.
Anyway, I hope my statements were civil.
Honore
Posted by sunnydays on January 18, 2007, at 13:20:35
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, something better needs to be done, posted by Deneb on January 17, 2007, at 23:29:41
I don't think you're a bad person Deneb. I also think that a lot of people have given you lots of constructive criticism in the past and suggestions as to what you could change. It by no means means you need to change anything, but I think you'll find lots of suggestions have been given to you in other posts.
sunnydays
Posted by Deneb on January 18, 2007, at 13:20:49
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS), posted by Honore on January 18, 2007, at 12:31:32
I'm sorry I don't know how to be a better person. I'm sorry I'm not changing fast enough for some people. I'm getting help, but I'm not going to change overnight.
Deneb*
Posted by muffled on January 18, 2007, at 14:20:58
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS), posted by Deneb on January 18, 2007, at 13:20:49
> I'm sorry I don't know how to be a better person. I'm sorry I'm not changing fast enough for some people. I'm getting help, but I'm not going to change overnight.
>
> Deneb***Deneb, change is hard, but like I said, you have improved SO much. I don't know that this is so much bout you anymore, unfortunately you have been caught as an example, but this shall pass.
I just think people are concerned that it not happen again with other persons another time(NOT meaning you Deneb, but some other babblers in the future). That there be clear rules in place about this, cuz its pretty hard to take.
I am SO not better than you Deneb.
I am an idiot supreme.
I just think what you are doing is just right.
Your handling this well.
You are growing as a person.
Your on the right track.
I am very impressed w/you.
Well done.
Muffled
Posted by Deneb on January 18, 2007, at 15:06:28
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce, posted by Honore on January 18, 2007, at 12:15:03
Posted by Deneb on January 18, 2007, at 15:07:16
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS), posted by muffled on January 18, 2007, at 14:20:58
Posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 15:53:46
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS), posted by Honore on January 18, 2007, at 12:31:32
I appreciate your post and the points are well taken. I am also inclined to feel the effects of the idea of "ganging up" - & I have share your beliefs about private communication versus public.
However, the issue for me is the issue of suicide et al (& the attending behaviors) - & the repeated patterns that that deleterious to both the poster and the pb community as a whole.
The answer to this is not silence. Either silencing the poster (or shaming) or silencing the issue seems to have cumulative negative effects.
& it is true that one could choose to choose to ignore the posts, however - it is human nature IMO to want to help, no matter what kind of space we might be in.
I think, for me, historically I withdraw myself from a situation when I have no hope of helping or creating a better situation than the one that I am being presented with.
If I put myself in posters "xx" (& not necessarily deneb) & people began to ignore me, I would probably begin to feel uncomfortable and alienated, at best. I do not want that for anyone.
Likewise, I would hope someone could see things from my perspective of trying to help with a distressing topic/post and genuinely try to not create the same pattern repeatedly.
Posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 15:56:01
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS), posted by Deneb on January 18, 2007, at 13:20:49
> I'm sorry I don't know how to be a better person. I'm sorry I'm not changing fast enough for some people. I'm getting help, but I'm not going to change overnight.
>
> Deneb*What do you mean by getting help?
I, presonally, am not asking you change overnight. However, I think it is good practice to call your pdoc when you overdose. I think that means you are getting the help you need, when you need it.
Posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 15:57:32
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS), posted by muffled on January 18, 2007, at 14:20:58
It's not administrative, but you have a big heart - & the rest will come soon enough...
Keep the faith and the rest will follow.
Posted by Deneb on January 18, 2007, at 15:59:49
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS), posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 15:56:01
> What do you mean by getting help?
>
> I, presonally, am not asking you change overnight. However, I think it is good practice to call your pdoc when you overdose. I think that means you are getting the help you need, when you need it.I *DID* try to call my pdoc when I overdosed. She CANNOT be reached after hours and I have a feeling she doesn't want me to call her. She thinks I can deal with it on my own through self talk or by writing about it on Babble.
I'm getting help by seeing a T. My pdoc IS my T. I tell her *everything*.
Deneb*
Posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 16:03:59
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS) » one woman cine, posted by Deneb on January 18, 2007, at 15:59:49
I thought you said you would try to call your pdoc the next morning, since you couldn't reach her that night - & the next morning you said, you decided not to call.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
"She thinks I can deal with it on my own through self talk or by writing about it on Babble."
Is this true? She said this to you?
Posted by Deneb on January 18, 2007, at 16:09:13
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS) » Deneb, posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 16:03:59
> I thought you said you would try to call your pdoc the next morning, since you couldn't reach her that night - & the next morning you said, you decided not to call.
>
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> "She thinks I can deal with it on my own through self talk or by writing about it on Babble."
>
> Is this true? She said this to you?
>My pdoc has never ever said it's OK to call her while in crises. She has never said I could call her. I don't think she wants me to call her. She asked me what I could do next time I want to OD. We came up with some things to do. I can try to think rationally about things by using cognitive behavioural techniques. I can call the Distress Centre. I can post to Babble about it. I can try to distract myself. Those were the things we came up with. She didn't offer that I could call her. I don't think she wants me to call her.
Deneb*
Posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 16:12:12
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS) » one woman cine, posted by Deneb on January 18, 2007, at 16:09:13
You are saying that she has never explicity made the staement "don't call"? right?
You didn't answer my original question - you said you would call your pdoc the next day at the urging of other babblers, yet the next day, you said you decided not to.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I may be confused.
Posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 16:15:27
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS) » one woman cine, posted by Deneb on January 18, 2007, at 16:09:13
Oh & plus, since you pdoc is an MD - they take a hippocratic outh to save lives.
Have you asked her if you could call or are you hoping she will ask you?
"She didn't offer that I could call her. I don't think she wants me to call her."
It is important to be able to ask for the right help for ourselves, with the right people, when we need it. Your pdoc is that person, calling her after an OD seems reasonable to me.
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