![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 30 to 54 of 90. Go back in thread:
Posted by Declan on August 3, 2006, at 3:10:45
In reply to Re: a right to not like others » cloudydaze, posted by Dinah on August 2, 2006, at 16:15:46
Don't you think this is a beat-up? The joke wasn't funny, but by pretending it is we make a point about the deputies? Doesn't this make anyone feel tired? And then talking about violence against women. Which I shall bore you by saying I am against.
Declan
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2006, at 7:31:28
In reply to Re: a right to not like others, posted by cloudydaze on August 2, 2006, at 20:12:19
> So, this all about a bad choice of words?
That's all that we have here, so I take seriously which ones are chosen.
> Are you saying that all moderators are great people? I don't believe that you know every single moderator on the face of the earth, do you?
The issue isn't moderators everywhere, it's people here. Deputies and also people who just post here, but moderate elsewhere. You have a right to think some of them aren't great people, but not to post that. Your freedom of speech is limited here.
> someone might find a joke about...say, police oficers funny, but that doesn't mean he hates all police officers. Some people just hate the IDEA of authority figures for various reasons....
Whether or not someone hates all police officers, it might not be considered civil here to post a joke about them, since there might be police officers here who might feel accused or put down.
OTOH, it's fine to post that one just hates the idea of authority figures.
> He obviously feels that some moderators have a tendency to try too hard at their job, or try to throw their weight around,(which I have seen on other sites - forgive me if i broke any rules by saying).
Please don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2006, at 7:32:27
In reply to Just to clarify » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 2, 2006, at 16:21:25
> 1) Is it ok for Poster A to post "I don't like Poster B".
>
> 2) Is it ok for poster A to post "I don't like Deputy X".
>
> 3) Is it ok for Deputy X to post "I don't like Poster A".
>
> 4) Is it ok for Poster A to post "I don't like deputies" (as long as Poster A doesn't specify which ones).
>
> 5) Is it ok for Poster A to post "I don't like Social Board posters" (as long as Poster A doesn't specify which ones)
>
> 6) Is it ok for Poster A to post "I don't like posters who post that they eat cheese" as long as more than one poster has recently admitting to eating cheese?Deputies need to be able to take some heat, so I guess my feeling right now would be that 2 and 4 would be OK, while the rest wouldn't. Since they are, after all, I-statements. What do you think?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2006, at 8:24:36
In reply to Re: not liking deputies, posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2006, at 7:32:27
Deputies are also posters.
If 2 and 4 are ok, I think all of them should be ok.
I would hope I'd never use the option, since personally I think none are ok, and I'd hate to break my own personal code of honor.
But we're posters, Dr. Bob. We're helping you out because we care about Babble. But that doesn't make a separate standard fair or appropriate.
To me, deputies being able to take heat means we should be able to refrain from posting in kind. To me, it doesn't mean that we deserve abuse just because we volunteered to help you out in a mentally stressful position that is difficult enough as it is without knowing that you think we deserve a special lack of protection.
If it's not ok for Poster A to tell Poster B that they don't like them, I don't think it's ok for Poster A to tell Poster B (who just happens to also have answered your request for volunteers) that they don't like them.
It's not fair under any definition of the word that I know of.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 3, 2006, at 12:40:29
In reply to Re: not liking deputies » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2006, at 8:24:36
I agree, Dinah. I think that when you agree to become a deputy, you accept that the *liklihood* of negative and/or disparaging comments will increase. That's how I interpret "taking heat" while remaining civil. But I do not think that makes the behavior acceptable just because it's expected that it will happen.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on August 3, 2006, at 12:54:58
In reply to Re: Suggesting violence--**trigger: crude**, posted by cloudydaze on August 2, 2006, at 23:54:00
> Once again, it's not supposed to be about violence - heck, it's not even REALLY about sexual stuff. It's just about someone's attitude towards authority. It's unfortunate that you took it another way.
I recognized the joke and understood very well what it was about from the very beginning. But words matter. And choosing a behavior in the light of a feeling and belief matters.
You wrote that it's "unfortunate" that I took the joke as I did. I have to ask--unfortunate for whom? I feel quite fortunate whenever I experience an authentic feeling and feel confident enough to express it when I choose to.
> Why is it okay and acceptable here to talk about hurting ourselves, but not ok to make a reference to violence toward others (esp since it was not meant to be serious)? Is hurting oneself more acceptable....why?
Here's how I view it. The former is an inward, self-contained behavior or urge that does not infringe on anyone else's rights or safety. The latter is an outward behavior directed towards others. It does infringe on others rights and safety regardless of whether it's a serious threat or not.
gg
Posted by henrietta on August 3, 2006, at 15:23:48
In reply to Re: Suggesting violence--**trigger: crude** » cloudydaze, posted by gardenergirl on August 3, 2006, at 12:54:58
I'll be kicking myself later for posting, but I can't help but comment again on one of the main reasons I find this site upsetting: inconsistency.
Back on February 6 Bobby told a "joke" about planting mines along the border. I was (I think) the only person who protested the "joke", and several others made comments that indicated they seemed to find the joke acceptable. Suggesting violence, mutilation, and death (the inevitable consequences of minefields) in that case passed without censure because, as it was kindly explained to me, it was a JOKE. Can someone explain that to me?
Posted by Deneb on August 3, 2006, at 17:48:52
In reply to Suggesting violence--**trigger: crude**, posted by gardenergirl on August 2, 2006, at 22:50:27
Wow, I must be really dumb or really innocent because I didn't get that joke at all! It left me confused.
Deneb*
Posted by Estella on August 3, 2006, at 18:39:44
In reply to Re: not liking deputies » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2006, at 8:24:36
I don't think he said that deputies deserve abuse...
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2006, at 19:06:42
In reply to Re: not liking deputies, posted by Estella on August 3, 2006, at 18:39:44
ok then, incivility.
I think if something is uncivil if said to you, it's also uncivil if said to me.
I don't think that's unreasonable, and I'm rather perplexed and disheartened that Dr. Bob would believe otherwise.
But perhaps not overly surprised.
Posted by Estella on August 3, 2006, at 19:25:17
In reply to Re: not liking deputies » Estella, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2006, at 19:06:42
> ok then, incivility.
I don't think he said that deputies deserve incivility either.
Maybe distinguish between... Uncivil behaviour and admin action?
Bob puts up with more incivilities directed his way than incivilities direceted towards other posters.
Do you think that helps or harms the boards?
What are some of the benefits of his doing that?(Oh I've meaning to ask...
Civil / Incivil? / Uncivil?
It is incivil... Isn't it?)
Posted by Declan on August 3, 2006, at 19:32:16
In reply to Re: inconsistencies, posted by henrietta on August 3, 2006, at 15:23:48
IMO humour always(?) involves transgression. I'm all in favour of humour, cruel though it is. I don't understand why we laugh, but isn't it because we see through something into something else? Then there are 'jokes' that are simply provocations. This thread has been much funnier than the original joke. Everyone coming here, lining up, for this. But that's just personal...I can't stand conflict.
Declan
Posted by Declan on August 3, 2006, at 19:33:24
In reply to Re: Suggesting violence--**trigger: crude**, posted by Deneb on August 3, 2006, at 17:48:52
Oh Sweetie, good on you. That's much funnier than the joke was.
Posted by henrietta on August 3, 2006, at 19:40:46
In reply to Re: not liking deputies » Estella, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2006, at 19:06:42
A Meditation, John Donne, that powerfully affected me as a child, and still resonates. Google the subject line, you'll get the meat.
Present policies seem to suggest that it is more offensive to make violent jokes about moderaters than to make violent jokes about impoverished families risking their lives to provide their children with any life at all.
Present policies seem to suggest that babble moderators are more valuable humans than impoverished humans from the south who seek a better life for their families. Not even a "please be sensitive" to Mr. Bobby.....
I admire those who avoid the temptation to see unfairness and favoritism and elitism and smug self-satisfaction.
Now, that's a positive note to end on, eh? before what I hope is a lifetime block.
And "inconsistency" was a cowardly word. I meant: unfairness, injustice, elitist smugness, and any other string of words the thesaurus can provide .
Posted by henrietta on August 3, 2006, at 19:45:58
In reply to Jokes, posted by Declan on August 3, 2006, at 19:32:16
well and good. then apply it equally. a hostile joke against one is a hostile joke against all, and should either be permitted or not.
Posted by Jost on August 3, 2006, at 20:18:44
In reply to Re: not liking deputies, posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2006, at 7:32:27
> > 1) Is it ok for Poster A to post "I don't like Poster B".
> >
> > 2) Is it ok for poster A to post "I don't like Deputy X".
> >
> > 3) Is it ok for Deputy X to post "I don't like Poster A".
> >
> > 4) Is it ok for Poster A to post "I don't like deputies" (as long as Poster A doesn't specify which ones).
> >
> > 5) Is it ok for Poster A to post "I don't like Social Board posters" (as long as Poster A doesn't specify which ones)
> >
> > 6) Is it ok for Poster A to post "I don't like posters who post that they eat cheese" as long as more than one poster has recently admitting to eating cheese?
>
"> Deputies need to be able to take some heat, so I guess my feeling right now would be that 2 and 4 would be OK, while the rest wouldn't. Since they are, after all, I-statements. What do you think?
>
> BobJust taking (what I think is) Bob's attempt to capture the rules in terms of logic (which I don't really think works--but that's me), I'd ask:
what's the distinction between Propositions 2 and 4 and the others?
On one level, all six statements have the form,
"I don't like person(s) x."
On the other hand, the person(s) designated in 2 and 4 is (are) a Deputy.
So you have,
1. "I don't like person x, who is a deputy." and
2. "I don't like deputies."
I see some difference between #2 here (which is #4 in the original list) and 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, since it could potentially be making a more abstract point, ie that I don't like authority figures (or making some protest against authority). The person would be personifying the idea of Power (presumably abused power, which is often what people mean when they say Power), or Authoritanianism in the word "deputies."
The other category words (posters on the social board and posters who eat cheese, when someone has talked about eating cheese) seem to define groups of people who, in fact, do things here. They refer more to specific people than to an idea --so I don't include them separately.
So at one level, only one type of meaning for No. 4 doesn't seem quite the same as all the others, and seems to qualify for different consideration from that perspective.
....
I'd like to add that I personally wouldn't reject the idea that attacks on (or personal statements criticizing) the deputies were acceptable, within limits. This could be within Bob's idea of "taking some heat." That would be because the deputies have power, and are secure in their roles, acceptance, respect, and personas on the board. Beyond certain limits, though, it would be unacceptable.If I were a deputy, I would give posters much more latitude for making personal statements against my actions or even myself, because of that position.
But if the deputies are uncomfortable with that, their feelings matter. I don't think it's necessarily a matter of fundamental fairness, though, because of the power and position differences. It's more a practical thing right now.
I generally don't like absolute bright-line rules, because the meanings of situations are so context-dependent, and I prefer there to be lots of room for judgments that respond to that. But again, that's me and I'm not a deputy.
(Sorry this is so long and hard to follow.)
Jost
Posted by Estella on August 3, 2006, at 20:36:17
In reply to Re: not liking deputies, posted by Jost on August 3, 2006, at 20:18:44
> IMO humour always(?) involves transgression.
I don't think it always does...
But it is true that it is much easier to laugh *at* some group of people or other than it is to come up with jokes that aren't at the expense of a person / a group of people...Humour is an interesting topic...
There has been quite a lot written on it in psychology...
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2006, at 21:19:01
In reply to Re: incivilities and deputies » Dinah, posted by Estella on August 3, 2006, at 19:25:17
We aren't Dr. Bob.
It's a different role. We're posters first. We interact with other posters. We see ourselves as one of the group of Babblers, which makes us more vulnerable to incivilities from the group we consider ourself part of.
Dr. Bob has a purely administrative role.
We don't.
I liked it better when the escalating situation provision was in place. I volunteered to be a deputy. I have never wanted to be a moderator.
Yeah, it does hurt when fellow Babblers say they don't like me. Especially the ones I haven't shielded myself from, based on prior experience. It hurts that I know I can't really be myself here because what I post may be used against me and many people, not all, hold me to a different standard. I feel increasingly estranged.
If Dr. Bob wants deputies from among group members, as opposed to hiring professionals, I think he ought to extend the protection offered to the rest of the group to deputies as well.
There are inherent risks in volunteering. I don't think he needs to add to our feelings of hurt by refusing to extend the same protection given to other group members to us.
I think "I don't like Dinah" should be treated the same as "I don't like Estella". It hurts me that Dr. Bob and at least some posters apparently don't think so.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2006, at 21:21:33
In reply to Re: not liking deputies, posted by Jost on August 3, 2006, at 20:18:44
> That would be because the deputies have power, and are secure in their roles, acceptance, respect, and personas on the board.
What makes you think that?
Posted by cloudydaze on August 3, 2006, at 21:28:03
In reply to Re: please be civil » cloudydaze, posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2006, at 7:31:28
> > Are you saying that all moderators are great people? I don't believe that you know every single moderator on the face of the earth, do you?
>
> The issue isn't moderators everywhere, it's people here. Deputies and also people who just post here, but moderate elsewhere. You have a right to think some of them aren't great people, but not to post that. Your freedom of speech is limited here.Why? Don't think i will ever understand this.
>
> Whether or not someone hates all police officers, it might not be considered civil here to post a joke about them, since there might be police officers here who might feel accused or put down.Yet another thing to add to the list of things you can't do on babble....tell jokes.
>
> OTOH, it's fine to post that one just hates the idea of authority figures.
>
> > He obviously feels that some moderators have a tendency to try too hard at their job, or try to throw their weight around,(which I have seen on other sites - forgive me if i broke any rules by saying).
>
> Please don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.How was that jumping to a conclusion?! It wasn't jumping to anything! Who is going to be accused or put down by that? Who? Maybe someone who dislikes me? But really Bob, why was that uncivil?
>
> But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
Ah, the same response given to "all who are uncivil" in bob's eyes. Teriffic. Wonderful. Yes, as a matter of fact, i do think you don't like me - in addition to most people on babble.> If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
>I have said nothing uncivil.
Posted by cloudydaze on August 3, 2006, at 21:36:05
In reply to Re: Suggesting violence--**trigger: crude** » cloudydaze, posted by gardenergirl on August 3, 2006, at 12:54:58
>
> I recognized the joke and understood very well what it was about from the very beginning. But words matter. And choosing a behavior in the light of a feeling and belief matters.Words are just encoded thoughts. In fact, there is no way to express exactly what one is thinking, because after the process of putting it into words (encoding) and reading it (decoding) the message gets jumbled anyway. So I don't see why it matters so much!
>
> You wrote that it's "unfortunate" that I took the joke as I did. I have to ask--unfortunate for whom? I feel quite fortunate whenever I experience an authentic feeling and feel confident enough to express it when I choose to.You expressed that you were offended. Do you think being offended is a good thing? I think it is an unfortunate thing. It's not about being confident in your feelings, it's about feelings that make you feel good, and ones that make you feel bad. If you think being offended is fortunate, more power to ya.
>
> > Why is it okay and acceptable here to talk about hurting ourselves, but not ok to make a reference to violence toward others (esp since it was not meant to be serious)? Is hurting oneself more acceptable....why?
>
> Here's how I view it. The former is an inward, self-contained behavior or urge that does not infringe on anyone else's rights or safety. The latter is an outward behavior directed towards others. It does infringe on others rights and safety regardless of whether it's a serious threat or not.I don't agree. If you post that you are feeling like hurting yourself, that is an outward behavior, and can infringe on other's feelings.
Technically there are a lot of things that offend me, i just don't tell anyone for the greater good. If it makes someone else feel better by posting that they are suicidal, then they should do it, regardless of how it makes ME feel. But, it is offensive and hurtful to me because it reminds me of when I used to do it.
The only way i am able to deal with anything is to forget it ever happened. If i remember, i start to slip.
Posted by cloudydaze on August 3, 2006, at 23:10:47
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by cloudydaze on August 3, 2006, at 21:28:03
Do you see? I am distressed tonight. In fact, I am currently thinking seriously about dying tonight. this is the 2nd time I've thought about death today - thanks to babble and my crappy life.
Block me if you will, but know that you will be helping in my devestation.
I am all alone now. I must be talented, because I can make people online and off hate me in a matter of weeks! That's talent!
Goodbye babble
Goodbye life.
Posted by Jost on August 3, 2006, at 23:13:01
In reply to Re: not liking deputies » Jost, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2006, at 21:21:33
> > That would be because the deputies have power, and are secure in their roles, acceptance, respect, and personas on the board.
>
> What makes you think that?Probably because if I were in that position, I expect that I would feel that, and also because when I've participated regularly for a fairly long time on a message board, I tend to feel more of those things.
Not at every moment, or with everyone, but enough that when I feel hurt or threatened, or angry, or even put uncomfortably on the spot, I come back to the security that I've established a well-enough respected and solid enough sense of who I am that others won't think badly of me, even if one person does.
So I can recover that sense of being okay--
I think I'd feel an especial responsibility to have that equipoise if I had any power or were somehow in a special position, which the deputies are.
If someone were to go beyond a certain point, I'd actually feel worse for them than for myself, because that tends to happen when someone feels hurt or put down, or afraid or-- . Or imagines themself as such. If it were my responsibility (which luckily it isn't), I guess I would take action for the good of everyone. Reluctantly, however.
I don't know that there wouldn't be times when I would lose my resilience. But I wouldn't like to.
My thought was also that Bob must have a lot of confidence in you, and gg and Auntie Mel--your judgment, ability to handle difficult situations, and not to use your authority inappropriately.
There aren't many people who can do that, especially over time,as you have.
That's mainly why I thought that--not that you wouldn't have moments when you didn't.
Jost
Posted by Estella on August 4, 2006, at 5:10:11
In reply to Re: incivilities and deputies » Estella, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2006, at 21:19:01
> We aren't Dr. Bob.
I know.
> It's a different role.
Deputies have the power to block posters.
> We're posters first.
Yes.
I think you distinguish between poster Dinah and deputy Dinah though. You make it clear when you are posting as deputy Dinah and when you aren't posting as deputy Dinah then you are posting as poster Dinah.
The 'joke' was about deputies, not particular posters.
I don't know about the escalating situation provision. Is that something about 2 incivilities before a blocking? Surely there are exceptions?
> Yeah, it does hurt when fellow Babblers say they don't like me.
Sure. Hurts me when fellow Babblers say they don't like me too.
Though...
You distinguish between fellow Babblers not liking poster Dinah and fellow Babblers not liking deputy Dinah - don't you?
> If Dr. Bob wants deputies from among group members, as opposed to hiring professionals, I think he ought to extend the protection offered to the rest of the group to deputies as well.I think he does offer the same 'protection' to people posting stuff about poster Dinah.
Best interests of the boards...
Do you think that being quick to block people for railing a bit at Bob the moderator and deputies as deputies is likely to encourage people to rail against them more... Or do you think posters will respect the deputies even more for giving off the appearance of keeping ones cool and not taking it personally? I think it might prevent escalation at times... Especially when things can be talked through instead of blocking...
Posted by Estella on August 4, 2006, at 5:30:19
In reply to Re: Suggesting violence--**trigger: crude**, posted by cloudydaze on August 3, 2006, at 21:36:05
> Words are just encoded thoughts.
According to the ideational theory of meaning...
>In fact, there is no way to express exactly what one is thinking, because after the process of putting it into words (encoding) and reading it (decoding) the message gets jumbled anyway. So I don't see why it matters so much!
It matters because the ideational theory of meaning (in that simple version) is simply false. Thinking / Language isn't like that. Not literally.
Cognitive capacity (capacity to think) is very much tied up in verbal capacity. There is some debate as to whether people think in words (verbal form) or images (map like form). Typically... Sensory perception is considered to be maplike while higher cognition is considered to be more sentential.
The way you think about something and the words you use to express your thoughts are indeed very closely linked. We think about the world and we talk about the world. We express our thoughts in language.
>If you post that you are feeling like hurting yourself, that is an outward behavior, and can infringe on other's feelings.
Indeed.
> If it makes someone else feel better by posting that they are suicidal, then they should do it, regardless of how it makes ME feel.
How about if it makes someone else feel better to call me all kinds of names. Should they do it regardless of how it makes ME feel?
The purpose of the boards is support.The reason our freedom of speech is limited here is because the purpose of the boards is support.
It would be unsupportive if you were to say 'Estella you are fat and ugly and I wish you would go away'. Hence... Your freedom of speech is limited here. If it is any consolation... You know that other people aren't allowed to post things like that to you either. I think the purpose of the civility rules is to teach us how to be supportive. When we aren't supportive then we get warned / blocked. Sometimes... People don't have social supports because... People are uncivil. Both on the boards and IRL. There are people here who will happily Babble away and this is a good forum for giving and receiving support. Those who don't participate in the support... Those who accuse others... Who jump to conclusions about others intentions... Who attack others... Who are sarcastic to others... etc etc. Well... They either get the hang of not posting those kinds of posts or they end up blocked for a long time yeah.
I've never advocated changing that...
It is a little like...
How do I know what I think until I see / hear what I say?
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
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