![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by revaaron on June 28, 2007, at 23:02:02
Hello! I'm new here, this is my first post. I started recently on dextroamphetamine IR at 10 mg twice a day, it's been a month. Never been on any other psych medications for AD/HD or otherwise. Had some non-serious dysthymia in my younger teenage years, sort of typical adolescent self-esteem problems and mild depression. However, anything along those lines have been gone for years.
That said- I started on the dextroamphetamine (BARR) and for about a month everything went very well. Then in the 5th week or so I started falling toward depression, but the kind of depression I've never experienced- sad, many negative thoughts, very moody, frustrated, wanting to just crawl into bed and stay there, with a strong desire to sob randomly. This was not the dextroamphetamine crash- I felt it equally while on and off my doses.
I had some 5-HTP around before to see about its usefulness as an appetite supressant and all the effect it had on the happy, content pre-dextroamphetamine version of me was to make me sleepy, with doses up to 200 mg. After 5 days of this very depressed/frustrated mode of thought I finally made the connection to feeling like this and depression- I just thought I was in a funk, but usually when I feel "blue" it is dispelled by simply talking and laughing with people, but this was persistent and I wasn't able to come out of it by my non-chemical means for mood control. Before starting on the dextroamphetamine I was happy, very contented, and most importantly emotionally stable- not prone to crying or mood swings at all.
After finally making the connection to my feelings to depression I remembered the 5-HTP I had sitting around and took 100 mg. Within 20 minutes my mood began to lift, and frankly after an hour I could be said to be "high." The "high" feeling lasted for 3 hours but after it wore off I felt like the normal, baseline me, and that state persisted for a full 24 hours when I took a 50 mg dose of the 5-HTP, which caused no difference in mood. Please note that I get no "high" (or much of a crash) from of the dextroamphetamine itself, but I can easily discern whether or not its working by how hard it is to concentrate on a word problem. I am going to abstain from the 5-HTP but continue my dextroamphetamine to see if after days or weeks if the condition returns and is similarily dispelled by the 5-HTP.
Has anyone seen this? Any ideas on how do deal with it? If you experienced this, is there an AD/HD medication that work better for you? I've read that ritalin inhibits reputake of the various neurotransmitters that dextroamphetamine and methamphetamine causes the release of, so perhaps that would not run the risk of serotonin depletion so much?
Are there any nutritional choices that I might make that could prevent this? Could I have be not eating enough of some amino acid to make the amount of serotonin that my regular, non-medicated brain could handle but that with the additional load of dextroamphetamine can't? (that is, because the d-amp is making my brain release serotonin and then not having enough of what it needs to make more)
Thanks!
revaaron
Posted by rjlockhart on July 1, 2007, at 21:33:33
In reply to dextroamphetamine causing depression?, posted by revaaron on June 28, 2007, at 23:02:02
I was on dextroamphetamine, amphetamine for 10 years.
I was a skinny thing, but felt witty and confident with this drug.
Im glad im over it. Now i do warn that this drug can promote euphoria. But through your post you sound this is causing more emotion problems which i had.
L-tyrosine will increase some effects of it. This all i will tell you, its a amino acid that you can get GNC.
R
Posted by revaaron on July 1, 2007, at 22:52:39
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression?, posted by rjlockhart on July 1, 2007, at 21:33:33
R said:
> I was a skinny thing, but felt witty and
> confident with this drug.I'm a fat thing (though very muscular, exercise 6x/week) and I don't particularily feel witty and confident with dextroamphetamine. For the first two weeks I felt exactly like I hoped- I was remembering the many things I didn't before and I would take care of the little things I often forgot to do when walking by them (e.g. litter box, small messes around the house, taking care of less signifigant work tasks). I didn't feel confident but I did feel much more action oriented rather than daydreaming.
Opiates, now they make me feel witty and confident. Or rather, they did, once. I've no affinity for stimulants of any kind, though the idea of being able to work in a consistent matter and concentrate in my classes is definately appealing.
> Im glad im over it. Now i do warn that this
> drug can promote euphoria. But through your
> post you sound this is causing more emotion
> problems which i had.I'm pretty convinced it was a lack of seretonin- 5-HTP never did anything before but make me vaguely sleepy (felt like melatonin), but once I had sunk to this depressive state it put me right in minutes. I wasn't using any other medication that would change the amount of serotonin available before this, including 5-HTP, SSRIs, MDMA, etc. It was a sort of depressive and frustrated feeling I've never felt before, and it lasted for almost a week. Being on or off the dextroamphetamine made no difference good or bad, so I don't think it was a WD symptom.
> L-tyrosine will increase some effects of it.
> This all i will tell you, its a amino acid that
> you can get GNC.Let me reiterate that I'm not interested in getting off- I just want this med to work like it did for the first two weeks. I don't have social anxiety or confidence problems, I just would like some help to make my brain remember the things I need to do.
Have you had any experience with DLPA? Ideas of DLPA vs L-tyrosine? I purchased some DLPA recently to see if it helped. I'm pretty much consigned to the fact that if I stick with the dextroamphetamine that I'll have to take 100mg of 5-HTP once a week, but I'm curious/concerned about the possibility of dextroamphetamine permanently damaging serotonin regulation, something I've never had a problem with before. If taking another supplement on a regular basis is what it takes to make this work I've got no issue with that- for the first two weeks it was pretty much a miracle for me- no side effects, no high, but the therapeutic aspects were there in force.
Hell, if anything, a few weeks after starting it, I now feel something closer to recreational euphoria than I did at first. I'm even feeling more motivated to get things done during the crash.
I'm very curious if any other ADHD med has worked better for anyone here esp in regards to the two problems I've described (not causing depression and working therapeutically for more than two weeks).
revaaron
Posted by KayeBaby on July 2, 2007, at 1:37:33
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression?, posted by revaaron on July 1, 2007, at 22:52:39
I have taken almost all of the readily available stims and I do think that they can cause the neurotransmitters to become unbalanced.
I benefit from a tad of seratonin enhancement and GABA whentaking stims in a way that I do not otherwise. 5htp is good and usually does the trick for my mood. I also have taken Taurine at night with good effect (GABA) L-theanine is good fro when the Dex is wearing thin and you feel a bit out of sorts. It's calming and focusing but not sedating the way 5htp can be.
Personally, I noticed Tyrosine to be better that DLPA. I took anywhere from 500-3,000 mg split into 2-3 doses. The combo of Tyrosine and 5htp is really good. You might try taking a small amount of the 5htp on a regualr basis (daily 25mg?)
NAC is a great addition to stims as well. 500mg twice a day. Be sure to keep your aminos and protein foods seperate. Juice and carbs will help them into your system. B vitamins and zinc help me lots too.
This is all off the top of my sleepy head so doublee ck my info.
The aminos really, really make a difference. I had a dr. prescribe them to me in amounts well over what I had been taking and I was amazed at how much the larger doses help.
I can check the name of the brand he gave me if you like. They were formulated for depleted brains and worked well.
Take Care,
Kaye
Posted by revaaron on July 2, 2007, at 2:13:24
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression? » revaaron, posted by KayeBaby on July 2, 2007, at 1:37:33
> I have taken almost all of the readily available
> stims and I do think that they can cause the
> neurotransmitters to become unbalanced.
Do you find that any one CNS stim is better than the others? Like I said before, I was incredibly impressed by the dextroamphetamine until (around the same time) it both stopped working how I needed it to and ended up making me depressed. Made me wonder about ritalin (which reputakes rather than causes release) and possibly modafinil.> I benefit from a tad of seratonin enhancement and
> GABA whentaking stims in a way that I do not
> otherwise. 5htp is good and usually does the trick
> for my mood. I also have taken Taurine at night with
> good effect (GABA) L-theanine is good fro when the
> Dex is wearing thin and you feel a bit out of sorts.
> It's calming and focusing but not sedating the way
> 5htp can be.Do you take GABA as a supplement, or do you mean something else which works with GABA (Phenibut, benzos, etc)? Hadn't thought about the taurine, I'll look into that. I do have some L-theanine coming soon that I was looking forward to trying. Of all of these that you list, are they all things you take once in a while, or daily?
> You might try taking a small amount of the
> 5htp on a regualr basis (daily 25mg?)
I'm a bit wary of taking 5-HTP on a daily basis, mostly because of what I've read in the way of 5-HTP withdrawal syndrome- but I don't see many other options. Since after I boosted the 5-HTP back up I've not had any problems, I'm wait and see if the depression returns, and maybe start taking it every (half the time for it to come back), which I'm thinking might be maybe even only once a week. It's hard to describe the feeling that 5-HTP caused in me when I took it at the low point of those few days- I was righted in a way that seemed very drug like, which is completely unlike the other times I've taken 5-HTP. I've taken it a couple times since that day, largely as a means to see if I'm wonky or not, even if I don't feel it quite yet, but we're back to feeling nothing but a little sleepy- which is fine by me. We'll see if it comes back, and then I'll start taking it once a week, or a small bit each day like you say.> NAC is a great addition to stims as well. 500mg
> twice a day. Be sure to keep your aminos and protein
> foods seperate. Juice and carbs will help them
> into your system. B vitamins and zinc help me lots
> too.I'm currently taking a B-100 B complex, Fish/Cod Liver Oil, and a multivitamin. After the reading I've been doing it sounds like I def need to add some L-Tyrosine, and possibly Zinc, Magnesium and Calcium as well.
Do you find that any of these help with keeping dextroamphetamine working? Right now, the effects I needed- working memory and motivation- are totally null, leaving only the energy and buzz. I like the energy, but it's not why I take it. Hopefully getting some of this stuff back into my system will help
out, because it worked great at first.
What are your feelings about the -racetams, as an adjunct or possibly replacement for dextroamphetamine? I ordered small amounts of about 10 different proven (in normal folks) nootropics too see if any of it would help, and the -racetams seem pretty promising. I also ordered a bit of raw ginko powder- not sure how safe it is, but once when I was in my late teens I stuck a couple tablespoons of dried ginko leaf tea into an steam-powered espresso machine, drank the brew and was pretty impressed with what resulted. Not sure how sustainable or healthy relative megadoses of ginko is, though. Not that I was on anything else at the time, I'm new to the wacky world of stimulants.If it isn't a pain, I'd appreciate if you posted the brand he gave you. Thanks Kaye for all the info!
Regards,
revaaron
Posted by KayeBaby on July 2, 2007, at 18:36:19
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression? » KayeBaby, posted by revaaron on July 2, 2007, at 2:13:24
> Do you find that any one CNS stim is better than the others? Like I said before, I was incredibly impressed by the dextroamphetamine until (around the same time) it both stopped working how I needed it to and ended up making me depressed. Made me wonder about ritalin (which reputakes rather than causes release) and possibly modafinil.
**I prefer a schedule 3 stim called Didrex then Dexedrine. This is probably due to my problems with fatigue as Didrex is more periperally stimulating than Dexedrine. I am ADD but who can think about thinking when you cannot even move?
When physical fatigue is not an issue I prefer dexedrine spansules. I get no anxiety with it. You might like Provigil. I noticed it was a great mood brightener and really felt (although I don't think in actuality it touches)seratonin-ish to me. Maybe you could cycle the two.
> Do you take GABA as a supplement, or do you mean something else which works with GABA (Phenibut, benzos, etc)?**I felt no effect from the actual GABA supp-but some do. Lyrica and the Taurine. No longer taking Lyrica but in a years time on it I got such restorative sleep that I am not having the horrible fatigue I have been suffering for almost 5 years straight. I believe Lyrica's effect on sleep is largely responsible for my remission.
>Hadn't thought about the taurine, I'll look into that. I do have some L-theanine coming soon that I was looking forward to trying. Of all of these that you list, are they all things you take once in a while, or daily?
** I have changed my supp regime as med med regime has changed. I am not taking stims anymore apart from the occasional 100mg of provigil and caffeine. I am on EMSAM almost 3 months, Namenda 10mg and Abilify 5mg. When i was taking those particular supplements I took them every day with the exception of L-theanine which I took on occasion.
> I'm a bit wary of taking 5-HTP on a daily basis, mostly because of what I've read in the way of 5-HTP withdrawal syndrome- but I don't see many other options. Since after I boosted the 5-HTP back up I've not had any problems, I'm wait and see if the depression returns, and maybe start taking it every (half the time for it to come back), which I'm thinking might be maybe even only once a week. It's hard to describe the feeling that 5-HTP caused in me when I took it at the low point of those few days- I was righted in a way that seemed very drug like, which is completely unlike the other times I've taken 5-HTP.
***Same exact thing here. When I need it, I know! Here is what worked for me. Load it. Take it regualrly till it starts making you drowsy then taper off for awhile. I can feel it-when it is too much or too little. Weird huh?>I've taken it a couple times since that day, largely as a means to see if I'm wonky or not, even if I don't feel it quite yet, but we're back to feeling nothing but a little sleepy- which is fine by me. We'll see if it comes back, and then I'll start taking it once a week, or a small bit each day like you say.
> I'm currently taking a B-100 B complex, Fish/Cod Liver Oil, and a multivitamin. After the reading I've been doing it sounds like I def need to add some L-Tyrosine, and possibly Zinc, Magnesium and Calcium as well.**I bet you will feel great with these addition. I got a profound push towards wellness with the addition of app. 100 mg B6 in the P-5-P form and 25-50mg zinc. I take it EVERY day since. If you need this you will be able to tell in a few days or less. The best thing I have stumbled onto on my own yet.
>
> Do you find that any of these help with keeping dextroamphetamine working? Right now, the effects I needed- working memory and motivation- are totally null, leaving only the energy and buzz. I like the energy, but it's not why I take it. Hopefully getting some of this stuff back into my system will help**I really have mostly gotten focus and calmness from Dex in the past but I know that the Nameda restores stimulant response and is said to prevent tolerance. Good med.
> out, because it worked great at first.
>
>
> What are your feelings about the -racetams, as an adjunct or possibly replacement for dextroamphetamine? I ordered small amounts of about 10 different proven (in normal folks) nootropics too see if any of it would help, and the -racetams seem pretty promising.**I have not tried any yet but am very curious-please post your responses to them!
I also ordered a bit of raw ginko powder- not sure how safe it is, but once when I was in my late teens I stuck a couple tablespoons of dried ginko leaf tea into an steam-powered espresso machine, drank the brew and was pretty impressed with what resulted. Not sure how sustainable or healthy relative megadoses of ginko is, though. Not that I was on anything else at the time, I'm new to the wacky world of stimulants.
>**You should check out vinpocetine-Ginko probably won't sustain that feel in you. Vinpo might be a better fit.
> If it isn't a pain, I'd appreciate if you posted the brand he gave you. Thanks Kaye for all the info!
>
> Regards,
> revaaron** I have had excellent luck with NOW and the price is right. The formulas I was telling you about....I will gather them up and post them+the ingredients later because they are wonderful.
Check over on the alternative board for that info. We might get out thread moved if we don't go over there.
I don't mind at all! Love sharing info and learning.
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by Iansf on July 2, 2007, at 18:38:51
In reply to dextroamphetamine causing depression?, posted by revaaron on June 28, 2007, at 23:02:02
I became more depressed on Adderall. Apparently some people react this way to amphetamines. It probably indicates something about our underlying brain chemistry, but I'm not sure what.
Posted by revaaron on July 2, 2007, at 22:56:29
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression? » revaaron, posted by KayeBaby on July 2, 2007, at 18:36:19
> I believe Lyrica's effect on sleep is largely
> responsible for my remission.Just out of curiousity, why did you stop taking the Lyrica? Have you tried phenibut or picamilion as alternatives? Not quite what you were talking about, but I've read reports by a couple folks who said that Xyrem (pharm GHB) was basically their AD/HD+fatigue 'cure,' which is interesting because unlike the CNS stims it goes after the root of the problem (for some folks) rather than addressing the symptoms. A shame it's so expensive and otherwise illegal. Not surprising, considering how sleep apnea or other sleep disorders can be a direct cause of AD/HD symptoms.
> I am on EMSAM almost 3 months...
Ah, I was looking into selegiline some, though as a nootropic/ADHD-helping drug more than anything else. But then again, after the usefulness of the dextroamphetamine waned after such a short time I started looking into a million other things outside the realm of traditional CNS stims. :)
> **You should check out vinpocetine-Ginko
> probably won't sustain that feel in you. Vinpo
> might be a better fit.I think you're right- I'll check it out.
> ** I have had excellent luck with NOW and the
> price is right.Funny you should say that- I ended up buying NOW magnesium carbonate (a veritable bucket of it for $8) and some L-Tyrosine. I took 450mg of the magnesium and 500mg L-Tyrosine around lunch time when my morning dose was wearing off and started to notice a difference a few hours later, before I took my afternoon dex dose, and when I did the effectiveness seemed to have returned! Going to see how it works for the next couple of days and I'll get back to you, but so far it's looking good. In a good way, the high feeling the dex was giving me for a week has pretty much left, leaving me motivated and attentive. I'm glad I asked- thanks a ton Kaye!
revaaron
Posted by revaaron on July 3, 2007, at 11:09:53
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression? » revaaron, posted by KayeBaby on July 2, 2007, at 18:36:19
Kaye- again, thanks! It's just about 11 AM, and today we're back to how it all started out, and how I hoped it would stay. After seeing the rather dramatic effects of first the 5-HTP supplement and now the L-tyrosine and I can't help but if dextroamphetamine is directly responsible for depleting stores of at least dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin. I also can't help but wonder how much this knowledge would help other people, how many doctors know it, etc.
Anyway, I took both the magnesium and the L-tyrosine, so I can't pin-point one of them as being responsible, but I'd put my money on the L-tyrosine. In addition to the dextroamphetamine working like I wanted to in terms of working memory, focus and attentiveness I've seen the elimination of another annoying thing that has popped up, which I thought was just a side effect of stims- sleep problems.
Before the dex, as long as I had no overriding sleep defecit I was awake and felt rested after 7-9 hours of sleep. When I started on the dex, that continued, but around the time the more desirable effects of the dex were starting to diminish, I began to have trouble getting out of bed. I would awake much fuzzier and still tired than I did before I started the dex. I've not had any problems getting to sleep, staying asleep or getting enough sleep since starting the dex- it's not kept me up, I don't take it in the evening, etc. Caffeine intake has gone down rather than up. But I'd wake up, feel tired (even when I wasn't sleepy anymore), and it improved a little when I got 12 hours of sleep one night, but I still wasn't as sharp as I was before dex. Taking my AM dose helped but the effect wasn't as pronounced as it was in the past at making me feel awake.
...but this morning, I woke up after 8 hours rather like I used to- my eyes snap open, I stretch, and I'm awake. I could force myself back to sleep, but you can feel it when you've had enough. And today, unlike every other day for the last couple weeks, I awoke awake and rested rather than fatigued. An amazing feeling.
In the last couple weeks, I've also had an increased craving for drugs, started consuming caffeine again, been eating crappier food, and even missed a couple days at the gym.
So, I'm thinking the dex killed my dopamine/norepinephrine reserves, which would certainly affect everything I listed.
L-tyrosine is an amino acid; the body needs it (or phenylalanine?) to make dopamine and norepinephrine... My positive reaction to L-tyrosine could have to do my brain/body chemistry but it seems just as likely that I'm not eating enough L-tyrosine-containing foods. What gets me is that this is considered "alternative," and ignored by many doctors and overly pushed by (often flaky) "natural health"-types. Hopefully one day they'll synthesize the two in a scientific way- get rid of the closed minds, but also the flakes I say. Anyway, I'm ranting rather than working, so I'm out for now!
I owe you a beer/coffee, Kaye!
revaaron
Posted by aqua1221 on July 5, 2007, at 5:31:59
In reply to dextroamphetamine causing depression?, posted by revaaron on June 28, 2007, at 23:02:02
What does everythink about Adderall causing depression, but not Ritalin?
I currently take Ritalin and it's not terribly effective for my ADHD. Adderall isn't a choice because it caused major depression.
Is it likely that I'd experience results similar to Adderall on dexedrine (namely Vyavanse, the new, "non-abusable", long-acting form of dex)?
Posted by KayeBaby on July 5, 2007, at 16:16:10
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression?, posted by revaaron on July 2, 2007, at 22:56:29
> > I believe Lyrica's effect on sleep is largely
> > responsible for my remission.
>
> Just out of curiousity, why did you stop taking the Lyrica?***FAT FAT FAT! Made me quite fluffy. Also-due to the short half-life a real up and down effect. Dosage had to be variable for me and I got this....Lazy-hyper-lazy-hyper effect and was dorking with the dosage all the time, opening caps. It made me feel like a drug addict.
I also was terrified of withdrawal as whenever I tried to quit early on I felt really bad. Physically and mentally.
But, after a year the beneficial effects started to wane and when I discontinued-no withdrawal. I guess it just ran it's course.
I would not hesitate to return to it if I felt I needed it.
>>Have you tried phenibut or picamilion as alternatives?**No. But, I am taking namenda which seems to share some properties with Lyrica such as better sleep, great anti-anxiety and also the weird sometimes energizing sometimes lazifying effects.
>>Not quite what you were talking about, but I've read reports by a couple folks who said that Xyrem (pharm GHB) was basically their AD/HD+fatigue 'cure,' which is interesting because unlike the CNS stims it goes after the root of the problem (for some folks) rather than addressing the symptoms. A shame it's so expensive and otherwise illegal. Not surprising, considering how sleep apnea or other sleep disorders can be a direct cause of AD/HD symptoms.
**I am going to mention this to my doc next week. He is excited by GHB. Thanks for reminding me. Quality sleep is elusive and also key for me to function well.
> > I am on EMSAM almost 3 months...
>
> Ah, I was looking into selegiline some, though as a nootropic/ADHD-helping drug more than anything else.**Yep. and it does help with that. It also demonstrated to me that I have a pervasive dysthymia that is complicating the whole issue.
>But then again, after the usefulness of the dextroamphetamine waned after such a short time I started looking into a million other things outside the realm of traditional CNS stims. :)
>
> > **You should check out vinpocetine-Ginko
> > probably won't sustain that feel in you. Vinpo
> > might be a better fit.
>
> I think you're right- I'll check it out.
>
> > ** I have had excellent luck with NOW and the
> > price is right.
>
> Funny you should say that- I ended up buying NOW magnesium carbonate (a veritable bucket of it for $8) and some L-Tyrosine. I took 450mg of the magnesium and 500mg L-Tyrosine around lunch time when my morning dose was wearing off and started to notice a difference a few hours later, before I took my afternoon dex dose, and when I did the effectiveness seemed to have returned! Going to see how it works for the next couple of days and I'll get back to you, but so far it's looking good. In a good way, the high feeling the dex was giving me for a week has pretty much left, leaving me motivated and attentive. I'm glad I asked- thanks a ton Kaye!**You are very welcome. Give the SLO-Mag a try. For whatever reason this was the bomb for me. Maybe because of the slow release there was no period of eing too relaxed for daytime. I also take cal/mag before bed.
I'm so happy that some of this info crowding my brain could benefit someone!
Thank You,
Kaye
>
> revaaron
Posted by KayeBaby on July 5, 2007, at 17:00:53
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression? » KayeBaby, posted by revaaron on July 3, 2007, at 11:09:53
> Kaye- again, thanks! It's just about 11 AM, and today we're back to how it all started out, and how I hoped it would stay. After seeing the rather dramatic effects of first the 5-HTP supplement and now the L-tyrosine and I can't help but if dextroamphetamine is directly responsible for depleting stores of at least dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin. I also can't help but wonder how much this knowledge would help other people, how many doctors know it, etc.
**My eyes were opened to this and I have been thrilled to know that we have such safe and effective ways to help ourselves. I think of doctors as being the fix-it men. In situations of acute health problems run to them. Healing comes from ourselves, nutritionist and other "alternative" practitioners. A good basic book on the subject...I can't remember the name right now. I'll look it up.> Anyway, I took both the magnesium and the L-tyrosine, so I can't pin-point one of them as being responsible, but I'd put my money on the L-tyrosine. In addition to the dextroamphetamine working like I wanted to in terms of working memory, focus and attentiveness I've seen the elimination of another annoying thing that has popped up, which I thought was just a side effect of stims- sleep problems.
>
> Before the dex, as long as I had no overriding sleep defecit I was awake and felt rested after 7-9 hours of sleep. When I started on the dex, that continued, but around the time the more desirable effects of the dex were starting to diminish, I began to have trouble getting out of bed. I would awake much fuzzier and still tired than I did before I started the dex. I've not had any problems getting to sleep, staying asleep or getting enough sleep since starting the dex- it's not kept me up, I don't take it in the evening, etc. Caffeine intake has gone down rather than up. But I'd wake up, feel tired (even when I wasn't sleepy anymore), and it improved a little when I got 12 hours of sleep one night, but I still wasn't as sharp as I was before dex. Taking my AM dose helped but the effect wasn't as pronounced as it was in the past at making me feel awake.
>**Take at least 2000 mg of Vitamin C at the end of your day and see if this doesn't help. Not during the day or it will cause the Dex to be excreted rapidly and not work.
> ...but this morning, I woke up after 8 hours rather like I used to- my eyes snap open, I stretch, and I'm awake. I could force myself back to sleep, but you can feel it when you've had enough. And today, unlike every other day for the last couple weeks, I awoke awake and rested rather than fatigued. An amazing feeling.
>**Great! Don't underestimate that mag. It does a lot of good on many levels. At least for me.
Make sure you are getting soem zinc too. This stuff has a definate effect on mood and energy for me. I believe it is a necessary addition to stims.
> In the last couple weeks, I've also had an increased craving for drugs, started consuming caffeine again, been eating crappier food, and even missed a couple days at the gym.
>
> So, I'm thinking the dex killed my dopamine/norepinephrine reserves, which would certainly affect everything I listed.
>**Excellent observation. I'll bet you are on to something.
> L-tyrosine is an amino acid; the body needs it (or phenylalanine?) to make dopamine and norepinephrine... My positive reaction to L-tyrosine could have to do my brain/body chemistry but it seems just as likely that I'm not eating enough L-tyrosine-containing foods. What gets me is that this is considered "alternative," and ignored by many doctors and overly pushed by (often flaky) "natural health"-types. Hopefully one day they'll synthesize the two in a scientific way- get rid of the closed minds, but also the flakes I say. Anyway, I'm ranting rather than working, so I'm out for now!
>**Our medical system is becoming more and more pharmecuetical driven to our detriment. Cheap, effective, safe nutritional therapies have no place in this system.
In fact, look for our access to be compromised more and more as pharm co's become more powerful. We need to be very vigilant on this count.
> I owe you a beer/coffee, Kaye!
> revaaron
Not at all. You have made my day with your enthusiastic feedback!Kaye
Posted by KayeBaby on July 5, 2007, at 17:09:09
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression?, posted by revaaron on July 2, 2007, at 22:56:29
Here is that supplement info that I go so much benefit from. Be prepared to be shocked at how high the nutrients are in it.
I was instructed to take 4 caps 3 times a day. This was IN ADDITION to app. 1-2,000 mg of tyrosine I was taking seperately.
Here is the website www.CHKnutrition.com
I was taking the Neuroreplete and Tyrosine replete mainly.
Very good stuff.
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by revaaron on July 5, 2007, at 17:55:49
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression?, posted by aqua1221 on July 5, 2007, at 5:31:59
aqua- what you say definately makes sense. Ritalin causes depression in some folks, but not others, and generally less than with the amphetamines. Before Kaye's incredibly helpful advice, I was considering trialing ritalin when the dex was causing depression. The reason is pretty straightforward: ritalin is a reuptake inhibitor of dopamine and norepinephrine, while the amphetamines cause dopamine and norepinephrine to be released. Ritalin increases the amount of them in your brain by stopping the process that takes them out of circulation, amphetamines force the reserves out, when they're then taken back up like in an drugless brain. When the neurotransmitters are pushed out, your body has to make more to replenish the supply for the amphetamine to do it again. Some people, possibly because of diet or metabolism, can create enough dopamine and norepinephrine to keep a large enough supply, but in others (me) it doesn't seem to be able to keep up without a little help (taking a dopamine and norepinephrine precuror like L-tyrosine or L-phenylalanine). VVyvanse contains lisdexamfetamine which is a inactive prodrug that converts into dextroamphetamine in the body. This is basically chemically modulated extended release formulation of dextroamphetamine, and as such, will likely effect you the same way as dextroamphetamine, including depression.
Have you ever tried straight dextroamphetamine? A lot of folks seem to have better results with it over Adderall, which contains 4 different amphetamine salts.
Posted by maryhelen on July 6, 2007, at 18:39:22
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression? » aqua1221, posted by revaaron on July 5, 2007, at 17:55:49
I am too tired to read all of the posts tonight, but am interested in dextro...... By the way, where do all of the doctors fit into this equation?
Posted by aqua1221 on July 7, 2007, at 12:05:27
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression? » aqua1221, posted by revaaron on July 5, 2007, at 17:55:49
> aqua- what you say definately makes sense. Ritalin causes depression in some folks, but not others, and generally less than with the amphetamines. Before Kaye's incredibly helpful advice, I was considering trialing ritalin when the dex was causing depression. The reason is pretty straightforward: ritalin is a reuptake inhibitor of dopamine and norepinephrine, while the amphetamines cause dopamine and norepinephrine to be released. Ritalin increases the amount of them in your brain by stopping the process that takes them out of circulation, amphetamines force the reserves out, when they're then taken back up like in an drugless brain. When the neurotransmitters are pushed out, your body has to make more to replenish the supply for the amphetamine to do it again. Some people, possibly because of diet or metabolism, can create enough dopamine and norepinephrine to keep a large enough supply, but in others (me) it doesn't seem to be able to keep up without a little help (taking a dopamine and norepinephrine precuror like L-tyrosine or L-phenylalanine). VVyvanse contains lisdexamfetamine which is a inactive prodrug that converts into dextroamphetamine in the body. This is basically chemically modulated extended release formulation of dextroamphetamine, and as such, will likely effect you the same way as dextroamphetamine, including depression.
>
> Have you ever tried straight dextroamphetamine? A lot of folks seem to have better results with it over Adderall, which contains 4 different amphetamine salts.
No, I've only tried Ritalin and Adderall.
Posted by revaaron on July 7, 2007, at 13:37:36
In reply to Re: dextroamphetamine causing depression?, posted by maryhelen on July 6, 2007, at 18:39:22
> I am too tired to read all of the posts tonight,
> but am interested in dextro...... By the way,
> where do all of the doctors fit into this
> equation?Not sure I follow you- what do you mean?
This is the end of the thread.
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