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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 34 to 58 of 116. Go back in thread:
Posted by BarbaraCat on March 20, 2003, at 12:59:20
In reply to Re: Meds and all that jazz » BarbaraCat, posted by Tabitha on March 20, 2003, at 0:45:48
Tabitha,
I'm not really sure what Lamictal is doing for me right now. When I first started taking it about 6 months ago, it gave me a very nice surge of energy. I was taking it with only lithium and together they seemed to be keeping the depression and mixed states hell at bay. But then Lamictal seemed to stop working and when I increased all I got was anxiety. I could live with it OK, but then in December my Mom died very tragically and the whole shebang (funeral, legal matters, house sale) was very intense and unsettling for me and I went into a massive suicidal depression in Jan-Feb. That's when my pdoc put on nortriptyline 75mg. It brought me back to life, literally. Now the question remains, do I really need Lamictal since it seemed to stop working? Or is it a needed ingredient in my current brew? I tried stopping lithium when my thyroid began to fail and realized within 3 days that I require lithium otherwise I start to fragment.So, I'm going back in April to bury Mom's 'cremains' and complete the dissolution of the estate. I know it's going to be very difficult and I do not want to mess with anything. I'm currently feeling very strong, spiritually and biochemically and feel like 'OK, bring it on'. But I know I'll need some healing afterwards, at which point I'll start reducing Lamictal very very slowly. It may be that I need it, but if I don't, my liver will thank me. I'll keep you posted.
> BarbaraCat, thanks for sharing all that experience and wisdom. One question, what do you think the lamictal is doing for you? You've got the lithium which is your mood stabiliser, the nortryptiline which is your AD, and I understand the valium and ambien are for anxiety and sleep. What is left for the lamictal to do? I ask because I'm trying to understand how lamictal is used for bipolar II.
Posted by BarbaraCat on March 20, 2003, at 13:12:56
In reply to Add, Add, Add, posted by Krissy P on March 20, 2003, at 0:41:39
I know your frustration with this. No one seems to know why these meds work in the first place, only theories. Just as no one knows what depression, etc., is really caused by. So much of the medication merry go round is hit or miss. From what I read here on this board, it's rare that anyone finds the perfect med the first time, or if they do, the effect poops out. So add another to the pile of pills. Pdocs are frustrated with this as well. Seems the only happy campers are the pharmaceutical companies.
I was lamenting this with my pdoc and wondering why we can't do a SPECT scan or blood test and just zero in on the disfunction. He said that there's nothing so far that's dependable and it's too expensive and inaccurate for insurance companies to foot the bill. But, he said that we're learning so much with the DNA mapping project and the rumor is that in the next few years we'll probably see a DNA test that will be far more accurate. So until then it's like a crap shoot. BTW, milk thistle herb (silymarin) has gotten good press all around for liver support. It's regenerated livers that were being destroyed by mushroom poisoning. We need to consider the hits our livers are taking with all these meds and do what we can to take care of them.
> Why does it always have to be add this, add that, to make a med work?? Adding so much is toxic. A med is solely used alone to supposedly work on the specific problem they manufacturer it for. Such poisons to our system, I'd rather die at the moment.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Why do you want to increase, are you not getting good antidepressant results from lamictal? I've heard of people going up to 400mg and above, but perhaps you need to add another class of med if you're not quite getting there.
>
Posted by Tabitha on March 20, 2003, at 13:45:06
In reply to Re: Meds and all that jazz » Tabitha, posted by BarbaraCat on March 20, 2003, at 12:59:20
Thanks again. I had hopes for lamictal to replace my SSRIs, but it seems it poops out on everyone. I'll probably try it anyway. I can understand you not wanting to change anything right now. My mom died in '95-- I just passed that anniversary-- it's an enormous thing, coming to terms with that loss. I'll wish you strength for going thru the estate and cremation stuff.
Posted by wcfrench on March 20, 2003, at 14:02:41
In reply to Re: Add, Add, Add » Krissy P, posted by BarbaraCat on March 20, 2003, at 13:12:56
This has seemed to be the trend with my meds... Add because it's working, subtract because it's not (or it stops) working. The combo fails and we don't know who the culprit is.
I'm on 100mg/2x Lamictal now, having started it about a month ago, and I don't feel the same as when I started it... now I feel a little more depressed, and as if it doesn't work as well. I did stop Depakote a short time before that, do you think I could be suffering withdrawals? It doesn't seem likely... I think sometimes I have mixed states too.. I'll be peaceful, then really anxious/nervous, then OK again. It's very weird, but I'm trying to balance it. Is that mixed states? Thanks for your help to me the young "grasshoppa"
See ya
CharliePS I read "the power of now" and "present moment awareness" and both are really good books to read. Even if you're not in a great position to take them in (as we are at times), they could benefit anyone's current situation. They are also very relaxing, and unlike other books when I'm anxious, I find myself actually seeing these as reprieve.
Posted by BarbaraCat on March 20, 2003, at 16:13:04
In reply to Re: Add, Add, Subtract, Confuse, Read, posted by wcfrench on March 20, 2003, at 14:02:41
Ah, Young Grasshoppa,
I can only share my own experience, which has been in the making these many years. It's hard to tell what is doing what when one is adding, subtracting multiple meds at a time. This goes for all the vitamins, over the counter stuff we get. It confuses the purity of the experiment. But I have heard that Lamictal may stop working as well as at first - this is the case with me. At first I thought 'oh, I've finally found The Drug' and then it slowly petered out.If you've stopped Depakote, this could certainly be contributing to anxiety. Anxiety is my personal downfall and unchecked stress will always turn into an agitated depression. I take a benzo (valium now, it was lorazepam, then klonopin. They're all pretty much the same.) and it helps to nip a bad stress state in the bud.
Mixed states. Ah, now there is a worthy foe. What is usually referred to as mixed states is a point along the bipolar continuum where mania and depression collide. The usual vanilla symptoms we think of as 'bipolar' are the extremes of high and low. Mania is crazed insomnia extroverted revved up thinking and depression is slow murky sluggish dreary can't give a rip about life. Mixed states is a very frightening combination of the two and can have delusional very scary nightmarish hallucinations, much like a very bad acid trip that goes on and on. Can't sleep, lots of wailing, catastrophic doom and total despair. I got to the point that I couldn't eat anything because I could hear the salad greens screaming on my plate. And oh, to walk past the butcher counter in a supermarket! I collapsed a few times in the aisle sobbing uncontrollably because I was very vividly transported to the slaughterhouse. I felt God had gone insane and we were in the hands of a sick diety. No hope. Very different from extreme anxiety states because of the hallucinatory quality.
That's not to say that all the things I was so supersensitive about were not horrible in their own right, but it was like I had an antenna that was only picking up horror movies, or like all my skin was peeled to expose nerve endings. I'd also get extremely empathetic and even psychic during these times - painfully sensitive in all ways and it wore me down. It's been a cyclical thing since I was 20. It was beginning to cycle more and more frequently and at 50 it was almost a constant state. I don't know many people who have had this form of mood disorder, but Edgar Allen Poe comes to mind. Real nightmare stuff. It's usually a Bipolar I thing since it's so extreme that it doesn't usually fit in with the milder BPII symptoms. For me it had classic schizoprenic qualities, but because it was cyclical, did not fit in with a schizoid dx. But who knows? All I know and am so very grateful for is that I haven't had a single episode like this since starting lithium. I've had severe depression, especially when my Mom was killed in December, but a normal response even though severe. It was thankfully not complicated by the horrific mixed states stuff.
Yes, Power of Now has been my constant companion - books, the tapes, video. I've rediscovered it after forgetting about it for a year. It's the single most helpful philosophy/spiritual teaching that I've encountered. Bless Eckhart Tolle, who had his own Hell to contend with. Now that my chemistry is stable, these teachings are taking root. Cheers. Barbara-San
> This has seemed to be the trend with my meds... Add because it's working, subtract because it's not (or it stops) working. The combo fails and we don't know who the culprit is.
>
> I'm on 100mg/2x Lamictal now, having started it about a month ago, and I don't feel the same as when I started it... now I feel a little more depressed, and as if it doesn't work as well. I did stop Depakote a short time before that, do you think I could be suffering withdrawals? It doesn't seem likely... I think sometimes I have mixed states too.. I'll be peaceful, then really anxious/nervous, then OK again. It's very weird, but I'm trying to balance it. Is that mixed states? Thanks for your help to me the young "grasshoppa"
>
> See ya
> Charlie
>
> PS I read "the power of now" and "present moment awareness" and both are really good books to read. Even if you're not in a great position to take them in (as we are at times), they could benefit anyone's current situation. They are also very relaxing, and unlike other books when I'm anxious, I find myself actually seeing these as reprieve.
Posted by BarbaraCat on March 20, 2003, at 16:17:43
In reply to Re: Meds and all that jazz » BarbaraCat, posted by Tabitha on March 20, 2003, at 13:45:06
You never know how a med might potentiate the others. Perhaps lamictal alone won't be enough to replace ADs, but it may be the extra ingredient that stabilizes everything for you. I think it's worth a try, Tabitha. At least if nothing happens it's not a difficult med to titrate off from.
Thanks for the good wishes re my Mom. Losing a Mom sure changes alot of things. I feel like I'm finally becoming an adult for the first time at 51. It's very sad but at the same time strangely liberating.
> Thanks again. I had hopes for lamictal to replace my SSRIs, but it seems it poops out on everyone. I'll probably try it anyway. I can understand you not wanting to change anything right now. My mom died in '95-- I just passed that anniversary-- it's an enormous thing, coming to terms with that loss. I'll wish you strength for going thru the estate and cremation stuff.
Posted by wcfrench on March 20, 2003, at 23:16:45
In reply to Re: Meds and all that jazz » Tabitha, posted by BarbaraCat on March 20, 2003, at 16:17:43
You are great. You are the single most person who has responded to my posts here, and I don't know if you even notice since you probably provide relief to so many people. You will do great, and already are by providing wisdom to so many in desperate search of knowledge to help them against their problems. The people who do the best in life have the most compassion, and feel the deepest.. your life is a true blessing. Like Tolle says, acceptance, not resistance, will help things to pass through us. Respond, don't react. Great stuff.. Good luck, thanks again.
-Charlie
Posted by BarbaraCat on March 21, 2003, at 1:48:44
In reply to Re: BarbaraCat is OK » BarbaraCat, posted by wcfrench on March 20, 2003, at 23:16:45
Dear Charlie,
You've brought tears to my eyes and warmth to my heart. As Eckhart says, every soul who has undergone a great spiritual transformation has also gone through intense suffering and dark night of the soul. It really helps to think that our pain has a deeper wisdom and purpose than we give it credit for! Bless you and keep in touch. - Barbara> You are great. You are the single most person who has responded to my posts here, and I don't know if you even notice since you probably provide relief to so many people. You will do great, and already are by providing wisdom to so many in desperate search of knowledge to help them against their problems. The people who do the best in life have the most compassion, and feel the deepest.. your life is a true blessing. Like Tolle says, acceptance, not resistance, will help things to pass through us. Respond, don't react. Great stuff.. Good luck, thanks again.
>
> -Charlie
Posted by catmint on March 21, 2003, at 1:58:05
In reply to Re: MAXIMUS AND RON.............................., posted by starlight on March 13, 2003, at 15:52:16
Hi,
I started a new thread and wanted to make sure you got this message, could you look for it and read it?
Thanks!!
::Amy
Posted by Msanjelpie on March 26, 2003, at 4:34:21
In reply to Re: Starlight, posted by catmint on March 21, 2003, at 1:58:05
I'm on 200mg Lamictal - 40mg prozac and .5 mg ativan.
Lamictal causes a temporary high when you start taking it that makes you think it's not working when the high goes away after a month. Not true... once the brain gets used to it the extra energy and calm feeling go away, but the pill is still working in keeping things in check...
It was when I added Klonopin to the mix that everything fell apart. Within 2 weeks I was suicidal and anxious and severely depressed. Ceased upon quitting the Klonopin. I have read that Klonopin is one of the worst things a BPII can take. Not sure why they keep prescribing it...
I suggest going off the klonopin and seeing if that allows the lamictal to better do its' job and see if the depression goes away.
I take Klonopin once every 6 weeks or so when I need to crash for 12 hours or more... but I make sure not to double up on it more than 1 day together.... The sleep is SO deep that it interferes with the dreaming process which can exacerbate the depression...
Talk to your doc about it... don't give up on the lamictal until you know for sure it is causing the depression...
Jeannie
Posted by SpreadDaALoha on March 26, 2003, at 6:25:48
In reply to Re: Lamictal - shouldn't cause depression, posted by Msanjelpie on March 26, 2003, at 4:34:21
I feel strongly that klonopin can cause depression and suicidal mood. I saw it happen to someone, and it is frightening to think how one "prescribed" drug can cause so much trouble to someone. I hate that medication for what it did to my friend (but I know it helps people too). Benzos are serious things...
Posted by Krissy P on March 26, 2003, at 10:28:12
In reply to Re: Lamictal - shouldn't cause depression, posted by Msanjelpie on March 26, 2003, at 4:34:21
Hi Jeannie, May I ask you something.
What you state here is how I felt/feel on the Lamictal. I went back on it after being off it for a year. Like the first month, I felt great and then now, I'm going into my 5th week, I believe(I should keep track), and now that 'high' feeling is gone but it still seems to be stabilizing my moods I liked the way you used the statement 'keeping things in check'-that's what I feel like on the Lamictal now.
When you read that Klonopin is one of the worst things a BPII can take-could you share what it all said? or a link where I can read it? My pdoc, as well as several other docs have been trying to wean me off of Klonopin, or they say at least to 1mg instead of 2 or 3.
you make such a great point here about going off the Klonopin to see if the Lamictal does its job better. I am in the middle of finding my personal med cocktail, after trying almost everytihing out there, and just wanted to get some ideas? So, in your opinion, you think Lamictal is a pretty good med, and for what specifically? I have always said it is my wonder med because it helped balance my moods beautifully, and very little weight gain, if any, from it. Now, Klonopin on the other hand, I gained a few, it's got the addiction potential, and I sometimes find myself taking more as PRN. But all in all, it is a wonderful benzo IMO.
What do you think about all this?
Thanks for such a great post, Kristen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I'm on 200mg Lamictal - 40mg prozac and .5 mg ativan.
Lamictal causes a temporary high when you start taking it that makes you think it's not working when the high goes away after a month. Not true... once the brain gets used to it the extra energy and calm feeling go away, but the pill is still working in keeping things in check...
It was when I added Klonopin to the mix that everything fell apart. Within 2 weeks I was suicidal and anxious and severely depressed. Ceased upon quitting the Klonopin. I have read that Klonopin is one of the worst things a BPII can take. Not sure why they keep prescribing it...I suggest going off the klonopin and seeing if that allows the lamictal to better do its' job and see if the depression goes away.
I take Klonopin once every 6 weeks or so when I need to crash for 12 hours or more... but I make sure not to double up on it more than 1 day together.... The sleep is SO deep that it interferes with the dreaming process which can exacerbate the depression...
Talk to your doc about it... don't give up on the lamictal until you know for sure it is causing the depression...
Jeannie
Posted by Ponder on March 28, 2003, at 23:44:10
In reply to Meds and all that jazz, posted by BarbaraCat on March 19, 2003, at 23:33:36
Hello BarbaraCat, Krissy and others on this thread!
I'd like to address the frustrating topic of meds being added, results being equivocal, other things being added, and nothing ever being substracted. Anyone else have this problem? Pretty soon I find myself on a bunch of things and wondering if any of them are actually helping. I do better for a while then get bad again and wonder why I'm taking 4 different meds and 6 different supplements and light therapy and psychotherapy and here I am depressed again. Can't help but wonder if the illness just cycles (it IS Bipolar II) and I would have felt exactly the same without all this stuff. But I become afraid to stop taking it because I think, gosh, maybe it could be way worse than this and this, lord knows, is bad enough. So, there you go. And are p-docs much help? Well, not in my experience. They seem to sit there poised with pen and Rx pad waiting for me to tell them what to prescribe.
Like many people on the board, I am sometimes tempted to wean off of all pharamceuticals and try massive doses of exercise, yoga, meditation, whatever. How do we go about answering the question..are these pills really doing any good?
Posted by PamJeanBrunot on March 28, 2003, at 23:54:52
In reply to Re: Lamictal - shouldn't cause depression, posted by Msanjelpie on March 26, 2003, at 4:34:21
Hi, I'm new here and saw this about Lamictal. I'm on it and my ankles are swollen. Has this happened to anyone? I got a high when I strated it, but it seemed to make me depressed now. My doctor says that a bipolar should not be on an AD.
what do you think?
Pam
> I'm on 200mg Lamictal - 40mg prozac and .5 mg ativan.
>
> Lamictal causes a temporary high when you start taking it that makes you think it's not working when the high goes away after a month. Not true... once the brain gets used to it the extra energy and calm feeling go away, but the pill is still working in keeping things in check...
>
> It was when I added Klonopin to the mix that everything fell apart. Within 2 weeks I was suicidal and anxious and severely depressed. Ceased upon quitting the Klonopin. I have read that Klonopin is one of the worst things a BPII can take. Not sure why they keep prescribing it...
>
> I suggest going off the klonopin and seeing if that allows the lamictal to better do its' job and see if the depression goes away.
>
> I take Klonopin once every 6 weeks or so when I need to crash for 12 hours or more... but I make sure not to double up on it more than 1 day together.... The sleep is SO deep that it interferes with the dreaming process which can exacerbate the depression...
>
> Talk to your doc about it... don't give up on the lamictal until you know for sure it is causing the depression...
>
> Jeannie
Posted by catmint on March 29, 2003, at 2:26:46
In reply to Adding, substracting, wishing and hoping, posted by Ponder on March 28, 2003, at 23:44:10
> Hello BarbaraCat, Krissy and others on this thread!
>
> I'd like to address the frustrating topic of meds being added, results being equivocal, other things being added, and nothing ever being substracted. Anyone else have this problem? Pretty soon I find myself on a bunch of things and wondering if any of them are actually helping. I do better for a while then get bad again and wonder why I'm taking 4 different meds and 6 different supplements and light therapy and psychotherapy and here I am depressed again. Can't help but wonder if the illness just cycles (it IS Bipolar II) and I would have felt exactly the same without all this stuff. But I become afraid to stop taking it because I think, gosh, maybe it could be way worse than this and this, lord knows, is bad enough. So, there you go. And are p-docs much help? Well, not in my experience. They seem to sit there poised with pen and Rx pad waiting for me to tell them what to prescribe.
>
> Like many people on the board, I am sometimes tempted to wean off of all pharamceuticals and try massive doses of exercise, yoga, meditation, whatever. How do we go about answering the question..are these pills really doing any good?
>
>Ponder,
My sentiments exactly! I am on Lamictal for BPII, and still continue to cycle, and I ask myself the same thing, am I really better on meds? I also do massive amounts of yoga and exercise, some meditation, which are truly life savers and I would have to say I am doing much better, but my gosh, it is so hard feeling so intensely all the time!!
My pdoc is the same way, ready to prescribe what I tell him I think I need (this last time it was Trileptal added to the Lam, but now I am reconsidering). Of course benzos are out of the question!
I am frustrated as heck having this illness, but we must remember that not only is there two things going on here, depression and mania, but also our distinct personalities like how stubborn we are, or how stuck we are in the past, what disgust us, and what angers us.
For all that there is psychotherapy, but ya know, you have to find a good one, and who can afford it nowadays?
My pdoc says that most bipolars do better on meds because the older we get, the worse the cycles become, but do I believe him?
I have been known to be non-compliant and last summer I thought I was cured! LOL. This fall, I decided to go back on meds, and now it is back to dealing with side effects, worrying that Lamictal might not be that great as monotherapy, and wondering if I can keep my relationships healthy.
I'm trying to meditate more regularly, which keeps me IN THE MOMENT (which is all there really is).
Ponder, thanks for your post, take care and hope to hear from you again,
and now.. I ponder... do we really exist??
::Amy
Posted by Barbara Cat on March 29, 2003, at 10:36:12
In reply to Adding, substracting, wishing and hoping, posted by Ponder on March 28, 2003, at 23:44:10
Hi All,
I'm with you in this frustration. I went through a time recently really believing I could do this thing alone or with drastically reduced meds. Lots of yoga, meditation, eating healthy, reading how to say 'bye' to your mood disorder. It felt shakey all the time but I was doing it until a major incident hit (my mom's death). Then I went into the abyss very badly, even though on lithium and lamictal. Not very high doses, but enough thus far.Since starting nortriptyline in February I'm doing well. I don't like the side effects, especially combined with lithium - very dry mouth, tremors, constipation. I keep thinking that when life gets more stable I'll try going it alone again. Hah! think again. Life is rarely stable and doesn't seem like it's going to get any better with all the insanity out there. I have a dream that I'll learn enough about how to just be with it, to have my inner resources strong enough to not affect my center. Until knowing how to do it better, I apparently need my chemistry tweaked. BTW, I personally do not believe lamictal is enough to deal with bipolar depression, even when combined with lithium, especially alone. I guess it depends on the dose, but like many of you, at higher doses I felt more anxious and depressed. The most helpful for me has been adding nortrip. It's not an SSRI at least.
Barbara
Posted by Ron Hill on March 29, 2003, at 13:03:10
In reply to Re: Adding, substracting, wishing and hoping » Ponder, posted by catmint on March 29, 2003, at 2:26:46
Hi Amy,
> My pdoc is the same way, ready to prescribe what I tell him I think I need (this last time it was Trileptal added to the Lam, but now I am reconsidering).
I know that it is still early in your Trileptal trial, but I'm curious. What are your first impressions of this medication? Specifically:
How does it feel in your brain?
How much are you currently taking?
Are there any side effects?
Does it reduce irritability?
Do you feel a mood stabilizing effect?
Does it seem to have any effect (positive or negative) on the depressive side of the equation?
Thanks Amy. As always, I offer you my best regards.
-- Ron
Posted by Ponder on March 29, 2003, at 15:29:45
In reply to Re: Adding, substracting, wishing and hoping » Ponder, posted by catmint on March 29, 2003, at 2:26:46
> Ponder,
> My sentiments exactly! I am on Lamictal for BPII, and still continue to cycle, and I ask myself the same thing, am I really better on meds? I also do massive amounts of yoga and exercise, some meditation, which are truly life savers and I would have to say I am doing much better, but my gosh, it is so hard feeling so intensely all the time!!
> My pdoc is the same way, ready to prescribe what I tell him I think I need (this last time it was Trileptal added to the Lam, but now I am reconsidering). Of course benzos are out of the question!
> I am frustrated as heck having this illness, but we must remember that not only is there two things going on here, depression and mania, but also our distinct personalities like how stubborn we are, or how stuck we are in the past, what disgust us, and what angers us.
> For all that there is psychotherapy, but ya know, you have to find a good one, and who can afford it nowadays?
> My pdoc says that most bipolars do better on meds because the older we get, the worse the cycles become, but do I believe him?
> I have been known to be non-compliant and last summer I thought I was cured! LOL. This fall, I decided to go back on meds, and now it is back to dealing with side effects, worrying that Lamictal might not be that great as monotherapy, and wondering if I can keep my relationships healthy.
> I'm trying to meditate more regularly, which keeps me IN THE MOMENT (which is all there really is).
> Ponder, thanks for your post, take care and hope to hear from you again,
> and now.. I ponder... do we really exist??
> ::AmyAmy,
You're keeping your relationships healthy? What a concept! I figure my relationships would be just fine if only I weren't in them. :-)Yes, the overlap of illness and character has always fascinated me. After all, there are bipolar people who would be difficult and dysfunctional even if they were totally cured of their organic brain condition, then there are extraordinarily brave, generous, selfless people who manage to pretty much keep it together for their friends and families even though they are repeatedly tossed into the jaws of the monster through no fault of their own.
Over the years I've become frustrated with psychotherapists because they seem to think that therapy should be an endless process, that if you don't get better, it's YOUR fault (their skills and abilities are never in question - no accountability), and if you disagree with any of that, you are simply resisting and in denial. OK, and I'm supposed to write a check for how much for that?
Sorry for the rant and negativity. As you can tell, I'm a little frustrated and put out with the current system of care-providers and treatment modalities available to us. This has gone on for so many years. When I learned the other day that schizophrenia is NOT progressive as bipolar is, my childish reaction was "THAT'S NOT FAIR!!" Oh, man. I gotta get this attitude in check.
Anyway, thanks for the response. I see my p-doc April 8. Maybe I can figure something out by then, or cycle to a better place. In the meantime, I feel doubly bad for my self-pity when so many are suffering from the current violence in the world. That's one thing I truly dislike about depression; it turns a person so inward.
Posted by Ponder on March 29, 2003, at 17:35:48
In reply to Re: Adding, substracting, wishing and hoping, posted by Barbara Cat on March 29, 2003, at 10:36:12
> Hi All,
> I'm with you in this frustration. I went through a time recently really believing I could do this thing alone or with drastically reduced meds. Lots of yoga, meditation, eating healthy, reading how to say 'bye' to your mood disorder. It felt shakey all the time but I was doing it until a major incident hit (my mom's death). Then I went into the abyss very badly, even though on lithium and lamictal. Not very high doses, but enough thus far.
>
> Since starting nortriptyline in February I'm doing well. I don't like the side effects, especially combined with lithium - very dry mouth, tremors, constipation. I keep thinking that when life gets more stable I'll try going it alone again. Hah! think again. Life is rarely stable and doesn't seem like it's going to get any better with all the insanity out there. I have a dream that I'll learn enough about how to just be with it, to have my inner resources strong enough to not affect my center. Until knowing how to do it better, I apparently need my chemistry tweaked. BTW, I personally do not believe lamictal is enough to deal with bipolar depression, even when combined with lithium, especially alone. I guess it depends on the dose, but like many of you, at higher doses I felt more anxious and depressed. The most helpful for me has been adding nortrip. It's not an SSRI at least.
> BarbaraBarbara,
I always appreciate your posts for their authenticity and insight. I'm sorry to hear about your loss and can only imagine how destabilizing an event that must have been. I was intrigued also by your observation that along with the sadness and loss was a certain sense of liberation, permission to be an adult, whatever. My own mother has been such a larger-than-life figure for me, in both good and bad ways, that I have always wondered what the world will feel like without her and how I may view myself differently at that time.Well, I should comment about meds to avoid a redirect. Is this the first time you've been on a TCA? I tried them way back in the pre-Prozac era and did not tolerate them at all, nor did I get any benefit. But I was not on any stabilizers either. So I'm curious about your combo. Sounds like you've had negative experiences with SSRIs.
Posted by Barbara Cat on March 30, 2003, at 13:51:02
In reply to Re: Adding, substracting, wishing and hoping » Barbara Cat, posted by Ponder on March 29, 2003, at 17:35:48
My first experience with TCA's was Elavil for a very short time and I hated the side effects and stopped. Next, I was on surmontil, a TCA, back in the early 80's. I did very well on it and then Deseryl came out mid 80's and the pdoc I was seeing at the time thought it was a more effective drug. I did OK on it, but all day drowsyness was a problem so when Prozac came out, that's what I was put on and it's been off and on SSRI/SNRI's ever since, with a few spells of no meds. I have classic Bipolar-II reactions from SSRIs, they work right away, tho with hyperness. Then they don't work at all and increases put into mixed states. When my pdoc suggested a TCA, I though 'oh, that's so yesterday!', but triptyline has been the best so far. It's only since Feb so we'll see.
About Moms, I also had a very close, very loving, very problematic relationship with her. Going home was always so mixed because of good and horrible memories. There's nothing that can prepared you for the emotional spiritual spin when she dies, it will be like nothing you can even imagine. My experience as I was going through it was unbelievably sacred, miraculous, raw, open tenderness and total love and appreciation for this person who had been so close and loved me so much. It was simply mindblowing and I felt like I had been initiated into a powerful group of those who had lost their mothers and are no longer the same person anymore.
Oh, if we could just stay open that way. It was the coming back home and dealing with the financial part, reading the coroner's report, the ongoing legal situation (she was hit by a man who was partially blind), knowing that I will never, ever be loved so completely by anyone again, the realization that not only did I lose a mother, but a whole culture, a town, the East Coast, and feeling that my childhood was indeed over and could never be recaptured. It all felt like major loss and knocked me down. But with that came the shift that yes, my childhood is over, and now it's time to get on with the rest of life. I also have a sense of ease that she's very much OK where she is and I no longer have to worry about her living alone, if she's well, is she happy. I get to go back in April again and finish up moving out and the internment, so I'll be real glad when it's just over and done with.
Posted by PamJeanBrunot on March 31, 2003, at 0:47:46
In reply to Re: Trileptal Trial » catmint, posted by Ron Hill on March 29, 2003, at 13:03:10
Hi Amy,
I just started Trileptal also. I was interested in these questions. I now combine the Trileptal with my Lamictal-like you Amy. This is a first for me-combining 2 mood stabilizers. I hope it is working for you somewhat.
PamMy pdoc is the same way, ready to prescribe what I tell him I think I need (this last time it was Trileptal added to the Lam, but now I am reconsidering).
Posted by catmint on March 31, 2003, at 2:56:17
In reply to Re: Trileptal Trial, posted by PamJeanBrunot on March 31, 2003, at 0:47:46
> Hi Amy,
> I just started Trileptal also. I was interested in these questions. I now combine the Trileptal with my Lamictal-like you Amy. This is a first for me-combining 2 mood stabilizers. I hope it is working for you somewhat.
> Pam
>
> Hi Pam!
I haven't yet started the Trileptal.I guess I am just procrastinating starting it until I get more info.
I would like to know if you don't mind,what dose of Lamictal are you on and for how long? Any other meds? Are you BP11?
Thanks for your post, hopefullly you can let me know soon how feel on this combo.
::Amy
Posted by PamJeanBrunot on March 31, 2003, at 11:29:57
In reply to Re: Trileptal Trial » PamJeanBrunot, posted by catmint on March 31, 2003, at 2:56:17
Hi Amy,
I did the same thing, I really did some serious research, online, as well as a friend who takes Trileptal, and my doc of course. I am on 50mg of Lamictal, and have been on only 50mg for about 2 years. My body is sensitive, and I seem to only need small doses of medications, but in the right combination. The Lamictal alone at 50mg-even though it may not have been a therapeutic dose, has never worked alone. I am a rapid cycler. I have also been diagnosed with major depression in the past. Bipolar 2 has come up, but my psychiatrists have clearly identified me as a cycler. I never get the extreme highs and lows that Bipolars do, so I don't think I fit the label.
I also take Seroquel and Klonopin with the Trileptal and Lamictal.
I wish you the best in deciding if Trileptal is something you choose to try. After day 3 I feel pretty well, just nausea, that's it. I can deal with that, although somewhat very uncomfortable. :-(
Hope this helped,
Pam
> > Hi Pam!
> I haven't yet started the Trileptal.I guess I am just procrastinating starting it until I get more info.
> I would like to know if you don't mind,what dose of Lamictal are you on and for how long? Any other meds? Are you BP11?
> Thanks for your post, hopefullly you can let me know soon how feel on this combo.
> ::Amy
>
Posted by wcfrench on April 3, 2003, at 0:13:19
In reply to Re: Adding, substracting, wishing and hoping » Ponder, posted by Barbara Cat on March 30, 2003, at 13:51:02
Barb
This might seem very mediocre in the department of reprieve from an outside source, but you know that your mother's death of physical life does not mean that she's no longer your mother or that she is no longer thinking of you and loving you. She's there, she's here, always, just like everyone always is. In the words of Tolle, die before you die. Be liberated, comfortable, at peace with death, because it is merely an ending to a body, a transport of something greater within that lives on. Mom thanks me for telling you this. You have that inner happiness and I have seen it, we are never alone, we're all connected. Distance means nothing, time means nothing. In the words of Travis, "Time exists just on your wrist so don't panic. Moments last, and lifetimes are lost in a day." Be gentle with yourself, and let what you feel flow through you, don't resist it in fear. There is nothing to be afraid of, ever. There is no point in resisting, accept through surrender.
Drastic change of subject- I just got back from a week in Vegas. I was dancing in the street literally with the music loud, usually by myself, and provided much entertainment for those around me. I even set up a quarter bucket outside the hotel and tried to sing for money, but I only made $1.25 because most people knew it was a joke. Most days were great.. the pattern seems to be a great daytime (100mg Lamic, 100mg Zoloft) then things seem to get worse as the day draws to a close (or it gets dark, I can't figure out if it just has to do with the night time).. 100mg Lamic, .5mg Klonopin afternoon/night. I altered it slightly by adding 50mg Zoloft in the afternoon and .5 Klonopin in the morning to try and "balance out" what I took in the morning and at night, and it seemed to help. But I still feel better in the morning/day than I do at night. The fearful depression returns, and I can't figure out how to get rid of it. I might try some mid-day meditation. The book "Meditation as Medicine" has been working wonders for me, literally. Any suggestions or related experiences with the day/night cycle? Moon?? Who knows. Just wondering if someone has experienced this. As my first doc said when I was on a complicated cocktail, "if you tell me you feel a certain way, I believe you and don't question why, since there are so many possibilities. We just work from there."Take care,
Charlie
Posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 2:40:10
In reply to Re: Mom, and my vacation » Barbara Cat, posted by wcfrench on April 3, 2003, at 0:13:19
Hi, why were you dancing in the street-- are you manic or just uninhibited? anyway it sounds very fun and very bold.
I have a predictable day/night cycle, I nearly always feel sane and balanced in the morning, and worked up and crazy at night. I don't know if it's really the day/night, or just that the events of the day are stressful and overstimulating. It's like sleep recharges me, and the day simultaneously wears me out and hypes me up.
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