![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 70 to 94 of 95. Go back in thread:
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 22, 2002, at 2:14:06
In reply to Re: Mercola and Quackwatchers » BarbaraCat, posted by Randal on August 22, 2002, at 0:02:27
So, let's see. Jenner's supposition that milkmaids were able to resist smallpox by virtue of the fact that they handled infected cow's teats was based on the obvious? Where were his scientific studies? Is it possible that none of us knows all there is to know on any subject? We've ventured into the realm of arguing politics, religion and other sacred cows. However, I can't resist paraphrasing the Bard: 'There's more to Heaven and Earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy, Dr. Randal'. Cheers, Barbara
Posted by sjb on August 22, 2002, at 9:32:13
In reply to Re: binge-eating » sjb, posted by IsoM on August 21, 2002, at 14:14:11
Yes, 6 years of therapy with too many therapists to remember, numerous PDocs, OA, hospitalization and another treatment center that was awful.
My problem began with dieting and continues to be aggravated by restriction and training. I'm trying hard to remedy this, the restriction, not the training.
Posted by IsoM on August 22, 2002, at 13:10:02
In reply to Re: binge-eating, posted by sjb on August 22, 2002, at 9:32:13
Posted by Randal on August 22, 2002, at 13:51:35
In reply to Re: Mercola and Quackwatchers » Randal, posted by BarbaraCat on August 22, 2002, at 2:14:06
I did a quick google search on ( jenner milkmaids smallpox cowpox ). The first article that pops up says:
"Jenner was curious as to why milkmaids who came in contact with cows infected with a rash called cowpox didn't seem to get smallpox like everyone else. He noticed that the milkmaids got a similar rash, cowpox, on their hands after touching the cows during milking.
Jenner's careful observations led him to conclude that getting this milder form of infection must somehow protect the milkmaids. As an experiment, Jenner then deliberately gave people the mild cowpox infection to protect them against the more dangerous smallpox infection. "Now I don't know what was going through Jenner's mind at the time, but I assume he was aware of the fact that people infected with many diseases such a smallpox did not get the disease in the future. Given the fact that such epidemics would pass through every few years and kill a sizeable fraction of the population, it seems hard to believe that people back then would not have figured this one out.
So the fact that Jenner would guess that maybe a similar disease (Cowpox--was it called this back then?--if so people probably knew the disease was similar) would confer resistance to smallpox seems to me like a pretty reasonable deduction. I don't see a leap of faith here. In fact in retrospect it seems pretty "obvious" although one can often say that of great discoveries.
Now on to homeopathy. Hahnemann, who founded the field, made the hypothesis that if a substance caused the symptoms of a disease, that small amounts of that substance would treat the disease. This is refered to as "The Law of Similars". I know he did NOT use this, but as an example this would be like saying that because PCP causes symptoms similar to schizophrenia, minute doses would treat the disease.
Small doses in Homeopathy means immense dilutions, frequently to the extent that it is essentially impossible that there will be even one molecule of the compound. For example, what is sold as a 30C solution is diluted to the extent that a container of water 30 billion times the size of the earth would be required in order to have at least one molecule of the dissolved substance. So the homeopathic solution in many cases is nothing more than water.
The homeopathy crowd responds by saying that the water "remembers" the substance. When challenged with the physical implausibility of this argument they simply state that there are some things modern science doesn't understand yet. OK, so the hypothesis of a doctor 200 years ago means that modern physics is wrong, scientists don't know what they are talking about, etc. This seems like incredible rationalization to me.
And consider this: if water "remembers" what it has been in contact with, think of what else that water has been in contact with over its history. Additionally, what impurities are in that water in REAL quantities. We all are aware that the water we drink, even if it is incredibly pure, has at least minute quantities of hundreds of chemicals. Does each of these hundreds of chemicals have some unforeseen medicinal effect? Are these effects good or bad? It boggles the mind.
Barbara, to suggests that everyone who challenges such ideas is somehow ignorant of the spiritual side of things, or "will not look within" is a cop-out and insulting. Phil had said he would address this and I hope he does. There are many deeply religious and/or spiritual scientists (and others) who outright reject such things as homeopathy. I have certainly not been arguing "politics, religion and other sacred cows". I have not mentioned my philosophical, religious or spirtitual beliefs. I have simply been arguing about what is effective (and honest!) medical treatment.
Randal
> So, let's see. Jenner's supposition that milkmaids were able to resist smallpox by virtue of the fact that they handled infected cow's teats was based on the obvious? Where were his scientific studies? Is it possible that none of us knows all there is to know on any subject? We've ventured into the realm of arguing politics, religion and other sacred cows. However, I can't resist paraphrasing the Bard: 'There's more to Heaven and Earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy, Dr. Randal'. Cheers, Barbara
Posted by phil on August 23, 2002, at 7:11:52
In reply to Re: Mercola and Quackwatchers » BarbaraCat, posted by Randal on August 22, 2002, at 13:51:35
Haven't had time to research this guy enough but a few things jumped out at me when I saw his site.
He mentioned being a member of some Christian organization. I wonder if he was Islamic or practiced buddhism if that would be mentioned. It's a small thing but it's not. If he's a Christian, he hasn't figured out the idea of til death do us part. Not that many have.
He mentioned the money making machines but then says he isn't in it for a swimming pool and bigger house or whatever. Anybody that charges his marked up prices and says he just wants to make a difference is lying. I'd bet he has a huge house with a swimming pool already.
He's going the same route as Andrew Weil who I used to admire. Now Weil sells his own vitamins(of course, all profits go back into his company).
One of my brother's and I went through his 'Vitamin Advisor'. Between us, according to Weil, we should both be taking about $250.00 a month in vitamins.
Weil was busted on 60 Minutes before he made his own vitamins. Two of the brands he heavily promoted were independently tested and had very bad results. When asked about this, Weil said he would let the companies know. Yeah, right.www.mercola.com/article/eft.htm
Drop your greedy doctors because you can tap your chin and feel better. I'd like to really know how well EFT works. You can do it yourself or over the phone! Sounds like a psychic hotline.For a mere $50.00 you can restore your vision and throw your glasses away. An ebook for 50.00? Why not just sum it up? No hype?
EFT "Almost too good to be true. Teach yourself in 5 minutes or your money back." No hype?
Give me some studies.Get off your meds, throw away your glasses, and cure yourself by tapping on your chin(no more meds). What does it take to spot a quack. How about "Super Food"? A mere $80.00 for a 2 week supply.
Right beside his 'All health-no hype' is a headline screaming about EFT,"It ought to be illegal to
learn how to improve someone's health so quickly and rapidly." Yes and it probably is at least unethical.This is one guy I'd like to see Mike Wallace have a chat with.
Just an opinion,
Phil
I'm sure he has some very good ideas but I'd rather go elsewhere.
Posted by sjb on August 23, 2002, at 9:01:20
In reply to Re: Mercola and Quackwatchers, posted by phil on August 23, 2002, at 7:11:52
Posted by Randal on August 23, 2002, at 12:42:55
In reply to Re: Mercola and Quackwatchers, posted by phil on August 23, 2002, at 7:11:52
Phil,
I just can't resist this one. Here's something I found in Mercola's most recent newsletter at www.mercola.com It's from an article titled "McDonald's & Biophoton Deficiency".
"DNA is the central storage repository for light in our body and is twisted around itself in a double helix, which can turn right or left. It belongs to the group of nucleic acids, of which there are two chains: the DNA and the RNA. DNA and RNA are built like a helix. Both strands form the structure and consist of sugars and phosphate groups that show a basic reaction.
The links are attached to the sugars and are basic. However, there are only four bases in the DNA: adenine, thymine, cytosine, and guanine. Only recently have researchers realized that cells do not simply absorb light but emit it coherently; the DNA and RNA molecules are a laser-active medium and can produce an optical hologram that communicates with the resonance of the background fields of our Earth and the planets as well as galaxies."
Now as someone who uses DNA and RNA on a daily basis, and has an advanced degree in biophysics, I can tell you that such ideas are well, um..."questionable" to put it politely. I showed it to a few people around here and we got a good laugh. One guy (who has a bipolar mother by the way) described the ideas as delusional. I was half-seriously thinking about posting it here and asking people whether they thought the thinking was more characteristic of manic psychosis or schizophrenia. I don't mean this as an insult to anyone--I've certainly had my own bizarre thinking while manic.So the question is: what does this say about Mercola? I'm assuming (hoping!) that he's not in need of antipsychotic medication (and again, no offense to anyone). Presumably he got this gem from someone else.
This raises the question: Is Mercola able (or willing) to critically judge information provided to him??
This is exactly why we need watchdog organizations like Quackwatch: to fill in the gaps of our own knowledge. With all the information out there none of us (including those with a background in medical research!) can know everything. If someone throws out terms like DNA, RNA and photon, I think some people will just assume he knows what he's talking about. I'm guessing that the part about communicating with the resonance of the background fields of the planets and galaxies clued in a lot of people, though...
Randal
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again"-- Alexander Pope
> Haven't had time to research this guy enough but a few things jumped out at me when I saw his site.
>
> He mentioned being a member of some Christian organization. I wonder if he was Islamic or practiced buddhism if that would be mentioned. It's a small thing but it's not. If he's a Christian, he hasn't figured out the idea of til death do us part. Not that many have.
>
> He mentioned the money making machines but then says he isn't in it for a swimming pool and bigger house or whatever. Anybody that charges his marked up prices and says he just wants to make a difference is lying. I'd bet he has a huge house with a swimming pool already.
>
> He's going the same route as Andrew Weil who I used to admire. Now Weil sells his own vitamins(of course, all profits go back into his company).
> One of my brother's and I went through his 'Vitamin Advisor'. Between us, according to Weil, we should both be taking about $250.00 a month in vitamins.
> Weil was busted on 60 Minutes before he made his own vitamins. Two of the brands he heavily promoted were independently tested and had very bad results. When asked about this, Weil said he would let the companies know. Yeah, right.
>
> www.mercola.com/article/eft.htm
> Drop your greedy doctors because you can tap your chin and feel better. I'd like to really know how well EFT works. You can do it yourself or over the phone! Sounds like a psychic hotline.
>
> For a mere $50.00 you can restore your vision and throw your glasses away. An ebook for 50.00? Why not just sum it up? No hype?
>
> EFT "Almost too good to be true. Teach yourself in 5 minutes or your money back." No hype?
> Give me some studies.
>
> Get off your meds, throw away your glasses, and cure yourself by tapping on your chin(no more meds). What does it take to spot a quack. How about "Super Food"? A mere $80.00 for a 2 week supply.
>
> Right beside his 'All health-no hype' is a headline screaming about EFT,"It ought to be illegal to
> learn how to improve someone's health so quickly and rapidly." Yes and it probably is at least unethical.
>
> This is one guy I'd like to see Mike Wallace have a chat with.
>
> Just an opinion,
>
> Phil
>
> I'm sure he has some very good ideas but I'd rather go elsewhere.
>
>
>
Posted by IsoM on August 23, 2002, at 15:59:13
In reply to Re: Mercola and Quackwatchers » phil, posted by Randal on August 23, 2002, at 12:42:55
Thought you might appreciate this one, Randal.
I use supplements judiciously & while looking for a particular mineral, saw a new supplement being offered. Picking it up, it said that it contained compounds essential for life found in fresh fruits & vegetables. The ingredients listed were different disaccharides & polysaccharides, plus a few inert binders. Yes, sugar pills! I shook my head in disbelief. I no longer see it offered. I guess not eveyone is as stupid as manufactors would like us to be.
Another new offer that ticks me off is SOD (superoxide dismutase), an enzyme said to have remarkable antioxidant properties. Never mind that it's among the commonest proteins in our body & is found in all our cells & that of the plants & meats we eat. Never mind that when we do eat it, it's digested into the amino acids that make it up & is no longer SOD. Never mind that the amounts offered in pill form are minute & not even listed by weight.
There's a lot of money to be made by marketing half-truths.
Posted by Randal on August 23, 2002, at 20:55:31
In reply to False Advertising » Randal, posted by IsoM on August 23, 2002, at 15:59:13
> Thought you might appreciate this one, Randal.
>
> I use supplements judiciously & while looking for a particular mineral, saw a new supplement being offered. Picking it up, it said that it contained compounds essential for life found in fresh fruits & vegetables. The ingredients listed were different disaccharides & polysaccharides, plus a few inert binders. Yes, sugar pills! I shook my head in disbelief. I no longer see it offered. I guess not eveyone is as stupid as manufactors would like us to be.
>
> Another new offer that ticks me off is SOD (superoxide dismutase), an enzyme said to have remarkable antioxidant properties. Never mind that it's among the commonest proteins in our body & is found in all our cells & that of the plants & meats we eat. Never mind that when we do eat it, it's digested into the amino acids that make it up & is no longer SOD. Never mind that the amounts offered in pill form are minute & not even listed by weight.
>
> There's a lot of money to be made by marketing half-truths.Those are great stories!
Actually I think the makers of the sugar pill really missed out. Think of it: they could've said that controlled scientific studies have shown that this supplement is just as effective for treating condition "x" as drug "y", as effective as supplement "a" for disease "b" and list all sorts of cases where a particular drug or supplement has been shown to be no more effective than placebo/sugar pill. They could make all sorts of (sometimes surprising) claims, and hey, they wouldn't even be saying anything untrue. Call the supplement something like MAX-PlaCeBo, package it well, and they could probably make a lot of money.
I have to admit that a couple times in the past I have actually walked into a vitamin store SOLELY for entertainment.
Unfortunately, a lot of people with serious illnesses do take things that either do nothing or make things worse. Very sad. I suppose I should make the disclaimer that I do take some supplements (a multivitamin and omega-3 fatty acids), and clearly not everything out there is bad.
Randal
Posted by IsoM on August 24, 2002, at 1:24:46
In reply to Truth in advertising » IsoM, posted by Randal on August 23, 2002, at 20:55:31
I certainly take my share of supplements, but I have a small appetite now. My food intake isn't great enough to provide all the nutrients I need. When I was young, I ate like a lumberjack, the envy of my friends. I could shovel the food in & would often go back for seconds & sometimes thirds. Yet I stayed rail thin at 5'6" & 115 lb. (No, not hyperthyroidic either.)
My metabolism is still great for my age but I only eat twice a day now, plus a bit of nibbling here & there through the day. I'm a firm believer of keeping mineral & vitamin intake fairly high as we age since assimilation tends to suffer as with age. I have no wish to develop osteoporosis or any other problems associated with age-related deficiencies.
I must do something right as I simply don't get ill. My immune system is iron-clad, no allergies whatsoever either. Any problems I have are all related to neurological problems that have been there throughout my life. So you better be careful about what sort of supplements you're going to trash. ^_^
Just an extra - what area in biochemistry is your expertise in? Probably as a professor, you might teach outside your forte too, but I'm curious nonetheless. There's just so much to know now (& to continue learning) in biochemistry compared to when I was young. I still love organic chemistry coupled with biology. It's fascinating.
I so wish I could start over again from youth, but I'd still be faced with the same impossible decision - what to end up specializing in. It's all equally interesting to me, the choice is incredibly difficult to make.
P.S. I managed a health food store for a while years ago, but gave people the straight goods on what was real & what wasn't. I'm not sure the owner would've appreciated it all. I still have fun arguing with some brash young uninformed salepersons trying to flog dubious products on customers. (Take note of the word 'flog'. Sound info, I have no problems with.)
Posted by Randal on August 24, 2002, at 14:11:10
In reply to Re: Supplements as we age » Randal, posted by IsoM on August 24, 2002, at 1:24:46
Hi,
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that all supplements are bad--I tried to make that clear when in my previous post I said:
"I suppose I should make the disclaimer that I do take some supplements (a multivitamin and omega-3 fatty acids), and clearly not everything out there is bad."
Of course I could throw out the usual statistics that 25% of all prescription drugs and 50% of all over-the-counter medications (or whatever numbers people use these days) are in fact derived from plant sources. And non-plant "natural" medications brings to mind Lithium, for example.
However, there are a lot of things out there that are bogus, for example the SOD that you mentioned earlier. As you also point out, based on your background and experience, you are well aware that the people selling these things are not necessarily knowledgeable. A health food or vitamin store is not a pharmacy, and people shouldn't approach it as such. I really think we are in complete agreement here.
I don't want to get *too* specific on my background here, as I want to maintain some anonymity. I'm not actually a professor, but a postdoc, the stage between graduate school and a professorship (which means I am still actually working in the lab, as opposed to most professors!). My work involves the function of nucleic acids (DNA and RNA) and proteins, many of which are enzymes. My particular work right now is basic science and not (directly) medically relevant, but some people in my field work in areas that are directly involved with medicine and drug development. People I work with sometimes say we do cancer research, and this is not entirely untrue, since we study basic cellular functions that can go awry in cancer and other diseases. We are funded in part by cancer research foundations. My field straddles Biology, Chemistry and Physics, and people work in departments named with various combinations of the above fields (Biochemistry, etc...). Hopefully this is informative while still being ambiguous!
Randal
> I certainly take my share of supplements, but I have a small appetite now. My food intake isn't great enough to provide all the nutrients I need. When I was young, I ate like a lumberjack, the envy of my friends. I could shovel the food in & would often go back for seconds & sometimes thirds. Yet I stayed rail thin at 5'6" & 115 lb. (No, not hyperthyroidic either.)
>
> My metabolism is still great for my age but I only eat twice a day now, plus a bit of nibbling here & there through the day. I'm a firm believer of keeping mineral & vitamin intake fairly high as we age since assimilation tends to suffer as with age. I have no wish to develop osteoporosis or any other problems associated with age-related deficiencies.
>
> I must do something right as I simply don't get ill. My immune system is iron-clad, no allergies whatsoever either. Any problems I have are all related to neurological problems that have been there throughout my life. So you better be careful about what sort of supplements you're going to trash. ^_^
>
> Just an extra - what area in biochemistry is your expertise in? Probably as a professor, you might teach outside your forte too, but I'm curious nonetheless. There's just so much to know now (& to continue learning) in biochemistry compared to when I was young. I still love organic chemistry coupled with biology. It's fascinating.
>
> I so wish I could start over again from youth, but I'd still be faced with the same impossible decision - what to end up specializing in. It's all equally interesting to me, the choice is incredibly difficult to make.
>
> P.S. I managed a health food store for a while years ago, but gave people the straight goods on what was real & what wasn't. I'm not sure the owner would've appreciated it all. I still have fun arguing with some brash young uninformed salepersons trying to flog dubious products on customers. (Take note of the word 'flog'. Sound info, I have no problems with.)
Posted by IsoM on August 25, 2002, at 1:10:54
In reply to Re: Supplements as we age » IsoM, posted by Randal on August 24, 2002, at 14:11:10
Don't worry, Randal, I'm not that sensitive, I was joking - that's why I put in the silly smilie ^_^
Sadly, many of these bogus supplements are sold in pharmacies, sitting alongside helpful supplements, adding some credence to the idea of their uselfulness.To be honest, what you do sounds better than simply teaching (though I know there are few professors who only teach). A question for you:
I know there are thousands of different proteins in the body, all with their own unique 3D structure. As you know, the folding of a chain of thousands of amino acids into its final tertiary or quaternary structure involves many foldings (& unfoldings) along the way. Do you think it'll ever become possible for scientists to discover a way to find out what all the steps to the final structure are? It's one thing to unfold (denature) a protein, but entirely another to know what was involved initially.
Excuse me if I haven't worded the question peoperly, but I hope you understand it. It seems the more I've learned, the more questions I've got. I wish I could pick someone's brains each time I wonder about something & can't find an answer.
Posted by Randal on August 25, 2002, at 22:37:40
In reply to Re: Supplements, Jokes, and a Question » Randal, posted by IsoM on August 25, 2002, at 1:10:54
> Don't worry, Randal, I'm not that sensitive, I was joking - that's why I put in the silly smilie ^_^
> Sadly, many of these bogus supplements are sold in pharmacies, sitting alongside helpful supplements, adding some credence to the idea of their uselfulness.
>
> To be honest, what you do sounds better than simply teaching (though I know there are few professors who only teach). A question for you:
>
> I know there are thousands of different proteins in the body, all with their own unique 3D structure. As you know, the folding of a chain of thousands of amino acids into its final tertiary or quaternary structure involves many foldings (& unfoldings) along the way. Do you think it'll ever become possible for scientists to discover a way to find out what all the steps to the final structure are? It's one thing to unfold (denature) a protein, but entirely another to know what was involved initially.
>
> Excuse me if I haven't worded the question peoperly, but I hope you understand it. It seems the more I've learned, the more questions I've got. I wish I could pick someone's brains each time I wonder about something & can't find an answer.That's a very active field of research, and there has been a lot of progress in understanding things. Here's a simplified view: The overall process seems to involve a rapid formation of secondary structure (alpha helices and beta sheet). This collapses into the compact "correct" structure, which can occur with or without intermediates. The steps in the folding pathway have been delineated for a number of proteins. In a cell, of course, things can be somewhat different, since the protein (or pieces of it) may be folding while the polypeptide chain is still being extruded from the ribosome. Additionally, the folding of many proteins in the cell, especially large ones, is actually assisted by other proteins (called "chaperones").
Here's a couple references if you can retrieve them:
S.E. Radford, "Protein folding: progress made and promises ahead" Trends in Biochemical Sciences 25 (12): 611-618 DEC 2000.
D. Baker "A surprising simplicity to protein folding" NATURE 405 (6782): 39-42 MAY 4 2000.
But this is getting WAY off topic. In an attempt to bring it back at least a little bit, I'll mention that many neurodegenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer's and BSE (mad cow disease), are associated with the misfolding and aggregation of proteins. So finding drugs that can inhibit or reverse the misfolding is a big priority.
A reference: Taylor, et al. "Toxic proteins in neurodegenerative disease" SCIENCE 296 (5575): 1991-1995 JUN 14 2002.
Posted by IsoM on August 26, 2002, at 0:41:42
In reply to Re: Supplements, Jokes, and a Question » IsoM, posted by Randal on August 25, 2002, at 22:37:40
I followed Dr. Stanley Prusiner's initial ideas about the causes of diseases like kuru, CJD, & scapie with interest when I first read about it in the early 90s. I remember how his ideas about prions was discounted by some in the scientific community. I'm glad he won the recognition & credit he deserved. It was his ideas about prions that first sparked my interest in protein folding. Interesting now that prions aren't all thought to be aberrant, but some are thought to have a purpose. Things are rarely as simple & clearcut as they may appear at first.
If I have difficulty in getting hold of any of the articles you mention (thanks for the links), I'm on good terms with the head of the biology department at the nearby u. & she'd help me get them. I knew (but forgot) that part of the polypeptide chain can already be folded while part of it is still coming off the ribosome.
Posted by Randal on August 28, 2002, at 15:08:44
In reply to Re: Protein Folding and Prions » Randal, posted by IsoM on August 26, 2002, at 0:41:42
Yeah, the Prusiner/prion story is an amazing one, and it's great that he was vindicated. Very few believed his ideas at first--they just didn't make sense at the time.
You know, that whole story would make a fantastic movie--certainly better than most of what's out there. Strong personalities, a medical mystery, a Nobel prize, international panic (BSE)--I'm surprised nobody has made one yet.
(Actually there are two prion Nobel prizes--the first was Gajdusek's 1976 prize for his work showing that the prion disease kuru is spread by cannibalism. If this were part of such a movie, and a subplot included his more recent conviction for pedophilia...that would add a tragic twist to an already bizarre story)
It sounds like you might really appreciate the "Toxic Proteins in Neurodegenerative Disease" article. It's a bit dense but very complete. Here's a link to try (I doubt you can get this for free but probably your friend can):
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/296/5575/1991
> I followed Dr. Stanley Prusiner's initial ideas about the causes of diseases like kuru, CJD, & scapie with interest when I first read about it in the early 90s. I remember how his ideas about prions was discounted by some in the scientific community. I'm glad he won the recognition & credit he deserved. It was his ideas about prions that first sparked my interest in protein folding. Interesting now that prions aren't all thought to be aberrant, but some are thought to have a purpose. Things are rarely as simple & clearcut as they may appear at first.
>
> If I have difficulty in getting hold of any of the articles you mention (thanks for the links), I'm on good terms with the head of the biology department at the nearby u. & she'd help me get them. I knew (but forgot) that part of the polypeptide chain can already be folded while part of it is still coming off the ribosome.
Posted by IsoM on August 29, 2002, at 18:34:17
In reply to Re: Protein Folding and Prions » IsoM, posted by Randal on August 28, 2002, at 15:08:44
Thanks for the link, Randal. You're right, I can't get it, but I can find similar articles about prions & neurogenerative diseases from other sources. It is about Alzheimer's, isn't it? While I never did finish my bachelor's, I keep reading & reading. I think I may be 'addicted' to learning. Sounds amusing, I know, but I'm so greedy about knowledge. I'd love to spend most of my time learning & gathering knowledge, if I could & weaving it together with all other things I learn. I'm almost obsessive about needing to learn everything I can about anything that interests me, & the trouble is, too many things are interest me.
The degree of specialization nowadays is incredible. The more one specializes in one field, the easier it is to not know what other developments are in diff fields. I was struck once by the work that's being done on underwater sound by experts with no idea of the bioacoustics & the impact on the environment & the underwater life there. It never occurred to the engineers that loud sounds could disrupt whales & other large sea mammals. Same with work being done on the use of wind turbines for energy needs. It was embraced enthusiastically at first with no idea again of the impact of the noise on the fauna & environment.
Many ideas are very good but need to be studied from all angles. That's why I liked what you said about your field of interest - working with biology, chemistry, & physics. Good ideas need to encompass a variety of disciplines to really prove useful in the long run without harm being done.
Posted by Iago Camboa on August 31, 2002, at 11:33:27
In reply to Re: Mercola and Quackwatchers » sjb, posted by BarbaraCat on August 21, 2002, at 17:00:01
Dear Barbara,
I take your message below to 'respond to' because you sometimes surprise and astonish me with your writings (in a definitely positive sense, which communicates me serenity and peacefulness). I also learn about life from you and feel very happy to have your appreciated and most valuable friendship... Wish it can last and endure with the passing of time - at least as long as there is a computer and Net and PB...
I found so very 'interesting' your statement that "In order to be a shaman, it was required that the initiate was 'touched by madness' as well as possessing other more beneficial gifts." It is very true, though sometimes the actual words were 'touched by the god (which the Ancient Greeks called Dionysus and sometimes Bacchus)' instead of 'touched by madness' but with the same sense... But what is important to me it is neither the words nor the 'grammar', but the knowledge I have that we both have felt it in the past and will feel it again...
BTW, the movie you so vividly recommended me, 'A Beautiful Mind' (do you remember?) will be available since next Sep 12 in a Video Club near where I live and I will have the opportunity to see it about then at home (it passed in the cinemas here about one year ago): it interests me very much both for the very interesting theme and for the (celebrated) main role interpretation. I will not fail to tell you my impressions about when I see it.I've spent 10 days in a very beautiful village surrounded with mountains all around and through which streams one of the 'last' unpolluted rivers in Europe, by name 'Paiva' (rare even in this country, which is today full of polluted rivers as elsewhere in Europe). That village happens to have been my mother's and her 6 brothers & sisters' birthplace and though no one from my aunts & uncles (my mother included) continued to live there when adults they all kept visiting there during vacations (with their wives or husbands, as appropriate, and their children) - this I call the 1st generation - of which only 3 survive (92, 85, and 84 y.o. - one uncle and two aunts, one of these the widow of one of the 7 'original' siblings).
Their children: we were 12 cousins, 8 males and 4 females, all very close and all married and with children (2 of the males now dead), the eldest being now 59 and the youngest being 42 , I am at the middle - this I call the 2nd generation. Next there is an even more numerous 3rd generation (27, between 35 and 4 y.o.) and a 4th generation (between 14 and 1 y.o.) and still growing. We gathered once some 6-7 years ago in a 'gigantic barbecue' in the 'garden' of my grandparents' venerable house - contiguous with the older house of my grandparents' grandparents - and were 56 at the time (wives and husbands (as appropriate) and children included) with about 15 absent; at least 6 died since but many more were born or have married meanwhile so the estimates are about 75-80 the total now.For a traditionalist like myself it is always very exciting to spend a few days with several members of the family (we were 27 (a few have left and others have arrived while I was there) these few days there and many many friends): they were 10 so 'full' days that I simply cannot explain out of context. I met all the members of the older generation, several of my cousins and wives/husbands and several members of the 3rd and 4th generations. My daughter's boyfriend met all family members present and I think he liked what he saw and was integrated in the family (so to speak) with easiness. Of couse we are all very 'independent' and everybody marries whom they choose without any need of approval from anybody! But it is nice when an 'invisible approval' is in the air... Every member of the 3rd generation with enough age has now their own car so 'the youth' went every night to town and lived their 1/2 independent lives as they liked.
I've always felt keen respect for the older generation (my parents and aunts/uncles) and find it normal that 'the youth' continues to feel and show respect for their 'older generation' (of which I'm only one of the members), even when some of them are young doctors, engineers, economists, etc. It is life... Not all are 'traditionalists' like myself but many (and perhaps most) are and many of the 3rd generation are too. About the 4th generation it is yet too early to tell... It is very true that human existence is short, but life persists and endures...I'm sorry to have been long and certainly boring. But I had the need to share a little of my family ties with you. There are only two individuals in my family (only my mother's side) who have longtime depression: myself and the youngest of the 12 cousins I spoke about (as a curiosity he is the 'most beautiful' of the 8-male-cousins 'gang' (so say most of the ladies): he has 3 kids and is married for the 2nd time; about myself it is not appropriate to speak). Sorry, I'm lying: one of my cousins' wife had the worst depression in all the family and unfortunately committed suicide at the 4th or 5th trial some 4 years ago: she left two grown-up children: the girl is now a physician (24 y.o) and the boy an engineer (26 y.o.), both single. That my cousin remains a widower(!)
Please respond back and speak a lot about yourself and how you are doing. I have a keen interest to learn all what's going on with you, even if I haven't spoken about you this time.All the very best,
Iago
> That's a great question. No, my life is not wonderful, I still get anxious and depressed and blow up. But considering that last year at this time I was in bed extremely ill and had been so for 2 weeks out of every 3-4 months for years, it makes me realize how far I've come. The major diff is that I'm not working full time anymore because I developed a very severe case of fibromyalgia. It's not just the fact that my work stress is dimimished because I've been unemployed before as well and unemployment has it's own major stresses. This time around I've bitten the bullet and commited to my health - because I was literally dying. Because I'm not working I have more time to devote to getting healthy. I get alot more exercise, eat a very healthy diet, take a bunch of nutrients, meditate, drink around a gallon of water a day, etc (in fact I practically live like a yogini except for the fact that I still love my drinky-poos and the occassional toke!). This lifestyle management definitely takes time, money and consistency and sometimes when I'm going through a rough spell I wonder if it's worth it. But I only have to look back 12 months ago to see the vast improvement, huge, immense. I'd love to be more happy, but that may take longer. Besides, I can't easily see how one can be low-level sick and be very happy, unless they've found another compensating factor like following a life passion (e.g., Stephen Hawking).
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 31, 2002, at 15:58:03
In reply to serenity and peacefulness » BarbaraCat, posted by Iago Camboa on August 31, 2002, at 11:33:27
Dear Iago,
Thank you so much for your holiday memories and experiences. It sounds so warm and filled with the kind of family love that we all long for. What a huge clan you have! There must have been many tears of laughter and joy. And the locale sounds like Paradise. It must be be a little disorienting to come back to 'normal' life once again.In America, we don't have that kind of extended family situation at all, although everyone talks about wanting it. Everyone is just too busy, and it's now that the lack of a loving community is being acutely felt. It's difficult to go through a depression or other health issue and to feel alone and isolated. Thankfully, I have good friends, husband, and social support system, but I've become estranged from most of my relatives. It seems that many of them have had depression, but whether due to biology or life circumstance, or both, who can say? I yearn for that special enfolding love that only family can provide.
Bless this internet for providing the means to locate our 'tribe', and for you, dear tribe member. BarbaraCat
Posted by Iago Camboa on September 5, 2002, at 13:29:59
In reply to Re: serenity and peacefulness » Iago Camboa, posted by BarbaraCat on August 31, 2002, at 15:58:03
Dear Barbara,
It is me who thanks you so much for your kind words. You are right that it is a little disorienting to come back to 'normal life' once again after a few so 'full' days: I could stay a couple of days more but it is also true that perhaps the best is leaving just when you are being appreciated the most...
Please don't complain that in America there is not 'that kind of extended family situation': I know you live in a very gifted and beautiful country (my cousin that was there some 10 days - she has two married cousins in the US plus one in Canada and a 4th in Britain and they gathered there this time - came back with the best impressions on the kindness and gentleness of American people) and I personally have seen many impressive images of solidarity and human love almost one year ago now, following last year's Sep11...However I would not say that the 'family sense' I've spoken about to you is common anywhere: I have the examples of my own family of the paternal side and of both branches of my wife's own family. Nowhere the situation is even remotely similar to what I have described to you of my mother's side family. I think it is somewhat of a privilege conceded by nature and due to a lot of concurrent factors not always easy to discern that have acted in the past and continue to act today; and am convinced that that common heritage of so many people should be maintained and transmitted intact to our descendants as something of precious and valuable: and that seems enough to me. I don't want to know everything and I will not enter into the details of the causes of that remarkable phenomenon, but I know and shall continue to tell and point out to the newer generations about this and that details I remember and recall often about their own grandfather(s) or grandmother(s) they often didn't know about and happen to continue to appreciate to be told, much of it has happened with myself and my cousins in the past.
Not all things have always worked 100% perfectly inside the family, and I am honored and proud to have contributed as I could and was needed at a certain point in time to the well-being of all members of the family, especially those who were then needful, mainly there where the links were particularly stronger and not everybody was acting as they should (because all people are human and will always have defects and shortcomings). A few things I learned inside my family and have made as I had seen, namely that debts of gratitude toward the fathers (or mothers) should be remembered and paid onto the children or grandchildren when occasion arises, mainly and especially if those fathers (or mothers) are now dead. And on and on if I was not certain of being boring and outright annoying.Do you still intend to change to Xanax? How far have you arrived with your tapering of Remeron? Is your lithium always working? How is your 'fibro'? Is your 'bearing' of yogini making you more beautiful? Have you been making sex for the benefit of your health (and your husband's)? What particular nutrients you are taking would you recommend the most? Have you been sleeping reasonably well? What has lately been catching your fancy? I most often read your posts and always delight with your writing talents. You are a most dear friend, did you know? At times I love all that comes from you, your every word.
Yours always, Iago
> Dear Iago,
> Thank you so much for your holiday memories and experiences. It sounds so warm and filled with the kind of family love that we all long for. What a huge clan you have! There must have been many tears of laughter and joy. And the locale sounds like Paradise. It must be be a little disorienting to come back to 'normal' life once again.
>
> In America, we don't have that kind of extended family situation at all, although everyone talks about wanting it. Everyone is just too busy, and it's now that the lack of a loving community is being acutely felt. It's difficult to go through a depression or other health issue and to feel alone and isolated. Thankfully, I have good friends, husband, and social support system, but I've become estranged from most of my relatives. It seems that many of them have had depression, but whether due to biology or life circumstance, or both, who can say? I yearn for that special enfolding love that only family can provide.
>
> Bless this internet for providing the means to locate our 'tribe', and for you, dear tribe member. BarbaraCat
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 11, 2002, at 18:43:59
In reply to Re: serenity and peacefulness » BarbaraCat, posted by Iago Camboa on September 5, 2002, at 13:29:59
Hello Dear Iago,
Forgive me for not getting back to you sooner in response to your wanting to know how I'm doing and my medication regime. So here's a long post, with some details into the Life of Barbara (hopefully it will not be too boring, but I truly feel as if I'm having a long talk with a good friend). I've been decreasing my Remeron fairly slowly and and now down to 22.5mg (1/2 of a 45mg pill). As is typical of a reduction in an AD, life can seem extra difficult. Why am I reducing it? Remeron has been a nice, gentle AD, and without many of the annoying side effects (lack of sex, mainly) of SSRIs. However, it caused me to gain almost 30 pounds and doesn't do much for anxiety. It hasn't really been very effective as an antidepressant, except for a few weeks at the start of treatment.As you may remember, I tried the 'let's see' test of upping my dose to 80mg earlier this year. It definitely had an energizing effect, but the anxiety was still there, and anxiety is what will bring on a lurking depression better than anything. The situations in my life are stressful enough and if I'm going to be gaining weight and impacting my liver, then by God, give me a drug that works!
As you are probably aware, the events of 9/11 have had a disastrous effect on American business. Whoever it was that set those events in motion knew that hitting at the heart of our financial well-being, illusory of not, is what will cripple a nation, and it has been. Jobs are scarce. I've been out of work because of my fibromyalgia condition and waiting for my disability to be approved. My husband lost his job due to layoffs and we have great financial worries from being without work for over a year. My naturopathic treatments attempting to address my fibromyalgia condition are not covered under our plain old health insurance and they're very expensive. There is no money coming in and our savings are quickly vanishing. The situation also causes distress between me and my husband because he is what the Jungians would describe as a perfect example of 'puer aeternal' - the eternal boy. His reaction to our financial stress is to pretend that everything will be OK, to think positive, and to play music, dreaming about finally becoming a rock star (but doesn't submit his songs to an agent either), etc. In the meantime, I get to finagle the bills and plead with the utility companies to keep the electricity and water from being turned off. We've talked about it, over and over, but in the end it works out to I don't trust him to take care of these things and so I end up doing it. He wants to, he's just unable to deal with it - someone has always come to his rescue and someone once again has. My friend and therapists have always said 'well, why don't you just stop doing it and he'll have to.' It doesn't work out that way and I end up cleaning up months of untended paperwork. He's find when there's enough money - pay the bills, no problem!. It's just when there's no money that he can't seem to figure it out and therefore depends upon wishful thinking. Other than this one rather huge blip, he's a responsible and dear human being who has been with me though some intense psychic storms. I can count on him to be there for me emotionally and that is a big one, and for which I am very grateful. But, you can imagine how the inequaltity of provider status puts a strain on our relationship, especially since my illness is particularly prone to the damaging effects of stress and worry - I'm supposed to be 'healing' and not running around trying to provide for me, him, and our eight furry family memers. This feeling of dire unsafety and danger brings up all too vividly my abusive history at the hands of my very disturbed father, and while it may be an excellant chance at confronting the demon once and for all, I don't have much faith in my psychic strength left when one worrisome month drains into the next, into the next.
I have an appt with my pdoc next week and am going to impress upon him my need for a strong and effective anti-stress med. I don't know if that would mean another SSRI or a good strong benzo. Xanax sounds attractive, but I don't believe it's out in an extended release form yet and I don't want to be gobbling handfuls every few hours. The thing that seems to work the best for me is opiods. I take my oxycontin with a few lorezapam and feel about 'normal' in that I'm not breaking into sobs every time I get hit in the gut with another disastrous projection into the future.
You know, I was brought up Catholic and no longer consider myself a practicing member of the Church - especially after the recent scandals (I too have my abuse stories, only by nuns, not priests). I've since adopted more of a Buddhist philosophy towards life, and it makes more sense to me intellectually and psychologically. But when things get as down as they sometimes do, I pray to the saints and I feel that they hear me. I also talk to Jesus, who is my greatest Teacher and friend. Now is a hard time for me, Iago. I don't feel my pdoc, who sees me every 8 weeks or so, has a clue as to what I need. What I need, really need, is a softening of the heart, an understanding and utter belief that there is grace, and that we're not adrift in a senseless sea of too many people, too much toxicity, too much pain. Ah, if drugs could only address this age-old dilemma, but of course, they do not. In the meantime, I dance when I can, play the piano, have an occassional snoot full of good Armagnac and keep a song somewhere in my heart. Love and peace to you, my wonderful friend, and I hope you can regale me with wonderful stories from your huge extended family life. - Barbara
Posted by ShelliR on September 12, 2002, at 0:01:23
In reply to Re: serenity and peacefulness » Iago Camboa, posted by BarbaraCat on September 11, 2002, at 18:43:59
Hi Barbaracat,
I was interested that you mentioned oxycontin for your MF pain. I haven’t been
diagnosed with MF, but have very very bad pain in my chest. It goes along with the awful
depression I’ve experienced in the last year and a half. First a psychiatrist put me on
oxycontin: he felt it was justified
since I had unsuccessfully tried so many Ads and supplements since Nardil had totally failed
after about twenty years. I had been taking very small bits of vicodin for a while, with no
need or desire to increase, but he thought I should take the oxy because it lasted double the time.
I became habituated very very quickly and went from a starting dose of 10mg to over 200mg in about six months. (I’ve heard that oxy is very "addictive", more so than other opiates, but I don’t know for sure). So I was wondering if you take the oxycontin on an as needed basis, or regularly. And if you’ve had to raise your dose significantly.My current pain doctor was concerned that I got up to such high a dose of oxy, although
he didn’t imply that it was my fault. Twice, because of price of oxy and the high dose I had become habituated to, I’ve switched to methadone. It’s done well for me for several weeks and then I’m not clear what dose feels right and I’ve ended up becoming depressed and very very anxious. I am trying meth again; this time I stopped the oxycontin for a few weeks, then started with a small amount of methadone. So I was also wondering if you had ever tried methadone instead of the oxy, and if so, what your experience has been. It’s so much cheaper and I think I would feel more comfortable psychologically if I had to go up a lot to control the pain. (meanwhile I have also started marplan and am desperately hoping that it * will * kick in).I read an interesting summary of a study comparing high dose methadone to low dose for methadone maintenance treatment. They came up with the conclusion that for some of the subjects, high doses (range 110-780mg; mean 211mg) raised their success rate ; (Lower doses are a mean of 65mg). The interesting thing for me was that besides being more successful in avoiding heroin, also the "response to psychopharmacological
treatment was enhanced by increased methadone in patients with ‘refractory’ psychiatric disorders." So, even though I’m not detoxing from illicit drugs, I wonder if there’s any connection to the fact that opiates work so well for me. AND I need to go up very high on the dose. Reading that summary made me less scared to go as high as I need to if it will keep me from killing myself and allow me to continue working. I just hope that it stays effective this time, at whatever dose I need to go up to.I’m really glad you’ve hung around for a while on this board;
I always learn a lot from you, both about natural supplements and drugs, as
well as enjoying the small window into your life. Tomorrow, I will start taking norweigan cod liver oil--work my way up from 1T to 3T, after reading your posts on this thread. Thanks, I hope you are continuing to improve.shelli
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 12, 2002, at 15:08:20
In reply to Re: Drugs Supplements » BarbaraCat, posted by ShelliR on September 12, 2002, at 0:01:23
Thanks so much for your kind post, Shelli. You are one whose messages I always look forward to reading. About oxycontin, it's kind of interesting. I too started on small doses of Vicodin, just a shaving here and there and it never went above 1/2 pill at a time. I used it mainly for feeling 'up'. If I had a hard day, or was tired and crabby, I could always rely on Vicodin to perk me up, whether I had pain or not. It didn't do much for the fibro pain, but it did alot for my spirits during those fibro flares. It would especially create a zippy-ness if I had a few glasses of wine. I wouldn't think of going to a 'do' without some Vico-fortification. Then I started getting stomach burning and some constipation which I mentioned to my primary care doc and he said that oxy didn't have the acetominophen which causes stomache complaints, and he also touted the long term pain relief benefits. Well, I said heck with the long term and just chew my pill up and then tuck the juice under my tongue to get an immediate hit (it's not too far from grinding and snorting it). I'm a Juice Junky, what can I say? I enjoy the good feeling, but am smart enough to know when to call a halt.
I must say that it does help the fibro pain alot, more so than any other med I've taken. But yes, there is a definite tolerance occurring that I'm being mindful of. It used to be that 1/2 pill would do the trick, and now I'm taking around 3 a day (when I take them - I am trying to be rationale about it). I find that I just 'want' more as the day goes on, more of the nice warm fuzzy feeling that I may or may not get, depending upon if Nepenthe smiles upon me. I'd actually like to be able to do Vicodin one day and oxy the next, just to confuse the addiction gremlins. However, my doc says 'oh no, you get one or the other'. I certainly can't discuss the lifting of mood effect with my pdoc, and he doesn't seem to appreciate how therapeutic that can be when in the midst of a bad time. I've most stupidly admitted to him that I had a great liking for opiods and he's put a screaching halt on anything that smacks of 'junkie' (although I never was). This was all before reading on these posts that morphine derivatives were being successfully used for intractable depressions and were not evil incarnate.
I also belong to many Fibromyalgia networks and much of the new evidence is saying that when there is a pain condition present, dosing with opiods to relieve the pain and becoming accustomed to that relief is not as big a problem as having nothing to relieve the pain - period! They say addiction can be dealth with, IF it occurs (more likely, the pain perceptors are going to soak it up pretty quickly), but for the most part, we're not getting adequate pain relief because of doctor's malpractice horror.
To answer you methadone question, no, I never have done methadone. Do you use it for pain relief, or other? BTW, the pain in your chest may be costochondroitis, an inflammation of the insertion place where the intercostal ligaments join to the breastbone. It's a bona-fide serious pain condition in it's own right, although I have it in a lessor form as part of the overall fibromyalgia makeup. However, I find it fascinating that you've associated it with your depression. I get a very discernable discomfort in my center when I'm really depressed, like a black first is grabbing and twisting. It's mainly in my solar plexus and heart chakra areas, so I know that it's telling me something.
Good luck with the Cod Oil. Are you taking the Carlson's Lemon Flavour? That seems to have a good ratio of EPA/DHA. Keep in touch, girl. - Barbara
Posted by ira steinberg on September 9, 2003, at 1:21:39
In reply to Re: Is Sears' rec only OmegaBrite? » Leighwit, posted by BarbaraCat on July 12, 2002, at 14:16:58
Dr Sears book The Omega Rx Zone recommends both his OmegaRx fish oil and Omegabrite. The main difference between Dr Sears OmegaRx and Omegabrite is the ratio between the omega 3 fatty acids EPA and DHA. OmegaRx is 2:1 EPA:DHA and Omegabrite is 7:1 EPA:DHA. You can find a lot of info comparing both brands and others on www.FishOilReport.com as well as links to websites with more info. The less total fish oil you take to get the required potency the better. The lower potency oils like eskimo contain a lot more other oils not needed by humans which have the potential to oxidize. Both Dr Sears OmegaRx and Omegabrite are available at a discount if you sign up for autoship.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2003, at 17:28:01
In reply to Re: Is Sears' rec only OmegaBrite?, posted by ira steinberg on September 9, 2003, at 1:21:39
> Dr Sears book The Omega Rx Zone ...
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by bookgurl99 on April 8, 2004, at 22:53:51
In reply to Re: Mercola and Quackwatchers » sjb, posted by BarbaraCat on August 21, 2002, at 17:00:01
> >Are you lives just wonderful now due to Mercola?
>
> That's a great question. No, my life is not wonderful, I still get anxious and depressed and blow up. But considering that last year at this time I was in bed extremely ill and had been so for 2 weeks out of every 3-4 months for years, it makes me realize how far I've come. The major diff is that I'm not working full time anymore because I developed a very severe case of fibromyalgia. It's not just the fact that my work stress is dimimished because I've been unemployed before as well and unemployment has it's own major stresses. This time around I've bitten the bullet and commited to my health - because I was literally dying. Because I'm not working I have more time to devote to getting healthy. I get alot more exercise, eat a very healthy diet, take a bunch of nutrients, meditate, drink around a gallon of water a day, etc (in fact I practically live like a yogini except for the fact that I still love my drinky-poos and the occassional toke!). This lifestyle management definitely takes time, money and consistency and sometimes when I'm going through a rough spell I wonder if it's worth it. But I only have to look back 12 months ago to see the vast improvement, huge, immense. I'd love to be more happy, but that may take longer. Besides, I can't easily see how one can be low-level sick and be very happy, unless they've found another compensating factor like following a life passion (e.g., Stephen Hawking).Hey BarbCat --
I'm curious -- have you been able to follow this plan? And are you still improved?
I'm thinking of following this plan, maybe even of visiting Mercola at the clinic. I'm a _little_ worried about gettting scammed, but I think it could be a great investment.
books
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