![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jrbecker on July 5, 2002, at 2:39:46
Well let me start off by saying that I'm a believer in taking vitamins daily. Nothing to the extent where I'm a card-carrying GNC shopper, but I do take a multi-vitamin daily, and I've actually started taking zinc and C lately (more for overall physiological health than anything). Of course, in my overall view of the vitamin craze these days, I am quite wary of most of the stuff we hear about this vitamin and that...it all seems to be one big infomercial at times.
So I figure that, as a group, we're a fairly astute group of people who are relatively knowledgable about our meds and other health matters (right?). Why not create a little discussion on what vitamins/minerals people feel have helped their mental health. Everybody seems to swear by a particular one or two so I'd love to see which ones people take and why (remember, I'm talking vitamins/minerals not really herbs and such like St.Johns Wort). Any research you can offer to back it up would be great too.
OK, we'll I guess I'll get the ball rolling. This one's more my own curiousity than anything else: In doing some research on autism, I read that one of the most effective treatments in treating sufferers is giving them a megadose of B6 with magnesium supplements (something like 8 mg for every lb. for B6, and 3 mg for every lb. for Mag.). Supposedly, it takes 60-90 days to take effect, but in over 50% of the cases, sufferers become more "normal," meaning they initate more interaction, make more eye contact, do less self-stimulatory behavior, and become less introverted. So, anyways, I guess my question is whether this has any benefits for any other mental sufferers out there besides just autistics. Just my own nagging question.
What vitamins do you buy into? Would love to get a good forum going on this.
JB
Posted by Schuyler on July 5, 2002, at 5:01:51
In reply to Vitamins...anybody swear by any in particular?, posted by jrbecker on July 5, 2002, at 2:39:46
Vitamin C.
1000 mg twice a day.
I am absolutely, positively sure that it helps *me* to prevent colds and flu. YMMV.Schuyler
Posted by Kari on July 5, 2002, at 9:20:58
In reply to Vitamins...anybody swear by any in particular?, posted by jrbecker on July 5, 2002, at 2:39:46
Hi,
I take calcium citrate 500 mg and magnesium 200 and find that these minerals act as tranquilizers and mood stabilizers.
B complex helped some for depression and anxiety but for some reason seems to have brought back tardive dyskinesia symptoms I used to suffer from (due to the unwise use of neuroleptics for symptoms better treated with ADs) as well as muscle stiffness and parkinsonism.
Posted by linkadge on July 5, 2002, at 11:43:38
In reply to Vitamins...anybody swear by any in particular?, posted by jrbecker on July 5, 2002, at 2:39:46
Niacin really does provide some relief from anxiety, but not the the degree that some assert. What I have found is that vitamins alone are a pretty lame treatment for many diseases but, in conjunction with drugs they can be pretty powerful. For instance, there was one study that showed dramatic improvement of their heart medication by adding co q10. By itself q10 can offer some protection but the combo seemed impressive enough for some drug companies to consider making a combo drug.
I think that Niacin is good to take with a
benzo, and might even warrant a decrease in
dosage. Many of the electrolites can offer
a certain degree of relief from the symptoms
of anxiety.The problem is that there is usually a devide in opinion. The ones who think that herbs
and vitamins are the only cures in the forms
that God intented them. Then there are the ones
who think that drugs are the only effective cure.I urge people to reasses the use of proper nutrition after they have responded to a med.
Cause believe me, there are many people that
grind their Lipitor and sprinkle it on their Quarter Pounder with cheese.Generally mental health patients are more
cautious about their diet.
Posted by Darwin on July 5, 2002, at 12:17:16
In reply to Vitamins...anybody swear by any in particular?, posted by jrbecker on July 5, 2002, at 2:39:46
I've noticed that vitamins can make me *more* depressed and I'm nearly certain that it is the choline bitartrate that is the main culprit. This fits into the theory that says some depressives suffer from an over active cholinergic system and therefore anything which stimulates that system (such as choline in vitamins) will aggravate their depression.
There is at least one published report that says 200-400 mcg of chromium per day helped some dysthymics. I take chromium but have not noticed any antidepressant effect from it.
I have also read that selenium may have a mild mood elevating effect. I take 200 mcg per day and I think it may help a little.
Darwin
Posted by fachad on July 5, 2002, at 14:53:18
In reply to Vitamins...anybody swear by any in particular?, posted by jrbecker on July 5, 2002, at 2:39:46
Here's what I've come up with for my supplement regimen.
I've done years of research, and tried to be conservative and only take things that have numerous studies and good scientific data.
I'm not going to list the (purported) benefits of each (except for notes on Milk Thistle). I'll just give what I take, how much, and when.
1. Multi-Vitamin/Multi-Mineral. (look for one without iron, and look for the trace minerals like boron, molybdenum, etc. 1 with morning meal.2. Beta Carotene. 25,000 IU with morning meal.
3. Vitamin B. B-50 complex. 1 with morning and 1 with evening meal.
4. Vitamin C. 1 g. 1 with morning and 1 with evening meal.
5. Vitamin E. 200 mg. 1 with morning and 1 with evening meal.
6. Magnesium. Krebs cycle chelate preferred. 400mg. 1 with morning and 1 with evening meal.
7. Calcium. Citrate preferred. 500mg. 1 with morning and 1 with evening meal.
8. Flax Seed Oil. Cold pressed. 1g. 2 with morning and 2 with evening meal.
9. Coenzyme Q-10. 50mg. 1 with morning and 1 with evening meal.
10. Milk Thistle. 150mg, standardized to 70% Silymarin. 1 with morning and 1 with evening meal.
I skipped purported benefits and health claims for others, but with Milk Thistle, I feel that some comment is necessary.
This herb has been shown to prevent damage and death to liver cells when they are exposed to various toxins, even carbon tetrachloride, which is one of the most potent heptotoxic compounds known.
It has also been shown to promote the flow of bile and to prevent drug induced cholestasis (stagnation of the bile). Proper bile flow is necessary for digestion, elimination of toxins, fat metabolism, etc.
Some of the drugs known to commonly cause cholestasis are the phenothiazines like chloropromazine (Thorazine) and its derivates. TCAs and hormones including BC / OC pills have also been frequently implicated in causing drug induced cholestasis.
Many medications, including, but by no means limited to, psych meds, have been shown to have some degree of heptotoxicity, i.e., they are toxic to the liver.
So all of us that take psych meds on a regular basis are running a higher risk of heptotoxicity and cholestasis. Both conditions can develop gradually and below the threshold of standard medical tests.
An alcoholic does not develop cirrhosis after 1 huge drinking binge, it develops gradually over a lifetime of drinking; a lifetime of putting an extra load on the liver to metabolize toxins and lifetime chronic exposure of the liver to toxins.
Just because alcohol is used recreationally and self-destructively and psych meds are used therapeutically and under medical supervision does not change the fact that in both situations the liver is being exposed to extra toxic chemicals and forced to break them down on a constant basis.
Milk Thistle has even been shown to promote healing and regeneration of liver tissues in those with toxin induced liver damage, including alcoholic cirrhosis and alcoholic fatty liver.
So, I swear by ALL 10 of the supplements in my regimen, but I think that anyone who takes ANY medication on a regular basis / lifetime basis should look at the Milk Thistle research and consider taking Milk Thistle.
Finally, I'll provide the two most helpful sources I've used to develop my supplement regimen. Both are very balanced and generously documented with references from academic and scientific journals. I went through a lot of crackpot and hokey quack books in the process, but these two are top notch sources.
Hendler, Sheldon Saul M.D., Ph.D. The Doctor's Vitamin and Mineral Encyclopedia. Fireside Publishing, 1990.
Murray, Michael, N.D. and Pizzorno, Joseph, N.D. The Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine, Revised 2nd Edition. Prima Publishing, 1998
I too, hope this thead stirrs up some comments and discussion.-fachad
Posted by Tap on July 5, 2002, at 15:37:24
In reply to Re: Vitamins...anybody swear by any in particular?, posted by Schuyler on July 5, 2002, at 5:01:51
For me, a regular, generic multivitamin works wonders to help with sleepiness/dorwsiness of Effexor/trazodone/remeron... Which ever I take at the time.
If it is placebo-effect does not matter to me, the main thing is, it makes me feel better.
Years ago, before I was taking any medicines for depression, I popped multivitamines at rate 5-8 a day. Then I read an article that convinced me that it is not a good idea.Tap/
Posted by Zo on July 5, 2002, at 17:15:08
In reply to Vitamins + Comments on Milk Thistle/ Liver Support » jrbecker, posted by fachad on July 5, 2002, at 14:53:18
last year at Stanford Hosp., I believe, as part of saving the lives of two people who ate killer mushrooms. I was impressed. You know if MDs are using it, well. . !Zo
Posted by Chloe on July 5, 2002, at 22:16:02
In reply to Re: Vitamins...anybody swear by any in particular?, posted by Kari on July 5, 2002, at 9:20:58
> B complex helped some for depression and anxiety but for some reason seems to have brought back tardive dyskinesia symptoms I used to suffer from (due to the unwise use of neuroleptics for symptoms better treated with ADs) as well as muscle stiffness and parkinsonism.
Kari,
I have TD in my mouth/tongue from years of Mellaril in the past. I just happened to pop a second B complex today as suggested on the label, but usually I just take one. Anyway, since taking the extra B, my tongue has been very active tonight. I though it was the extra anxiety/stress I am having. How did you discover this correlation? And do you know of any articles or sites that make reference to B vitamins and increased TD?Fascinating. Thanks for mentioning this...any more on the subject you can add would be most appreciated.
Chloe
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 6, 2002, at 2:05:20
In reply to Vitamins...anybody swear by any in particular?, posted by jrbecker on July 5, 2002, at 2:39:46
Yes, vitamins are important, and so is healthy eating and exercise. I take a potent multi and a gram of magnesium (glycinate). Magnesium is probably the most important thing we can take, IMHO. Methylcobolamin B12, a neurally active form. SAM-e 400 mg. Coenzyme Q10 100mg, milk thistle (agree wholeheartedly with Fachad on this), fish oil and a whole bunch of other various herbs and things. I probably have the spendy-ist pee in the western hemisphere.
The vites aren't enough by themselves to cure me, but if I don't take them, things rapidly start declining. - BCat
Posted by jay on July 6, 2002, at 3:20:46
In reply to Vitamins + Comments on Milk Thistle/ Liver Support » jrbecker, posted by fachad on July 5, 2002, at 14:53:18
Yes, Milk Thistle is, to me, the most important of herbs. I had heard that it helps stimulate release of bile, which is part of how the herb helps repair the liver. Well, extra bile can have a bit of a 'laxative' effect. Ever since I have been taking Milk Thistle, I have been very 'regular', and digestion is great! So, it's like I could tell the Milk Thistle was 'working'!
Jay
Posted by jay on July 6, 2002, at 3:39:41
In reply to Re: Vitamin B's -TD exasperbation? » Kari, posted by Chloe on July 5, 2002, at 22:16:02
I don't have references on hand, but one thing pointed out by a vitamin-friendly doc was that B vitamins can be very stimulating, even in the doses you buy for 'Stress Formulas' and such. Here are a couple of my experiences, and some my doctor commented on.First, the amount in the 'Stress' formulas are at many times the RDA...even if the RDA is not sufficient..still they are at 'Drug' levels..in that you take them not as a 'theraputic'..but in such high levels they do act like a drug. (They ARE chemicals, afterall.) Don't forget, also, us with mental health problems are very, very sensitive to the changes these suppliments bring. Please, I am not 'anti-vitamin'..I just want to pass on my experience.
B3 (Niacin) (200mg's a day) caused nightmares, fatigue, colds, weight gain. This may have something to do with such a high dose and their effects on blood fat metabolism, as well as off-balancing various neurotransmitters.
B6 (100mg's a day) Lots of nightmares, fatigue, and an increase in depression. Also some immune problems.
B12 1,000 mg's a day (timed relsease) Anxiety, a bit of mania...very, VERY bad for this. I remember this period of time, and it was almost worse than any med I had ever taken.
Folic Acid 1,000 mg's a day. Again, anxiety, aggitation, and yes dysphoric mania.
Those seem to be the culprits, and I *urge* all folks with mental illness to take STRONG precautions in using these suppliments.
Jay
Posted by turalizz on July 6, 2002, at 5:26:29
In reply to Re: Vitamin B's TOO much can cause problems..., posted by jay on July 6, 2002, at 3:39:41
Hi,
I started taking 250mg B1 and 250mg B6. I thought that B6 was involved in cathecolamine and PEA synthesis, but now I am reading that it is not recomended to be taken with l-dopa.
Which one is correct? Does B6 help dopamine synthesis, or just the opposite?
Apperantly I am taking too high B vitamins anyway. What is a safe dose? Is 50 - 60mg OK?
thanks.
cem
Posted by Kari on July 6, 2002, at 8:19:47
In reply to Re: Vitamin B's -TD exasperbation? » Kari, posted by Chloe on July 5, 2002, at 22:16:02
Hi Chloe,
I wasn't sure about the correlation between exasperation of TD symptoms and B complex (50) until seeing your post. Thought it was just a coincidence...
Unfortunately it is difficult to access information regarding possible explanations. Psychiatrists usually lack this knowledge, besides the fact that they don't like to hear about TD anyway . As Jay mentioned, sensitive people like us may react adversely to even subtle biochemical changes.
My symptoms got worse after a month of B supplementation and are still here despite having stopped taking the vitamins.
Perhaps you can find a psychiatrist or physician with experience in the field of orthomolecular medicine or psychiatry. In my area there are only nutritionists working in this field and their knowledge may be insufficient.
In any case, I will let you know if I come across any new information.Kari.
Posted by Kari on July 6, 2002, at 8:21:12
In reply to Re: Vitamin B's TOO much can cause problems..., posted by jay on July 6, 2002, at 3:39:41
Posted by Fuscia on July 7, 2002, at 12:44:08
In reply to Re: Vitamin B's -TD exasperbation? » Kari, posted by Chloe on July 5, 2002, at 22:16:02
Hi,
I thought it very interesting concerning the B-vitamins and an increase in tics.
From what I know about the B-vitamins is that they are needed from proper brain function as well as act as coenzymes, helping enzymes to react chemically with other substances, and are invovled in energy production. This may be great for those with depression or anxiety, but for those with Tourette's Syndrome or movement disorders, it can stimulate tics. Tourette's Syndrome is thought to be caused by an abnormality with dopamine, or other brain neurotransmitters. Certain of the B vitamins are involved in the synthesis of dopamine, such as B-6. And, all the B vitamins work together, for when there is a deficiency in one often indicates a deficiency in another. The average B-complex supplement I would think is too much for someone with tardive diskenesia or tics. It would be better to get your B-vitamins from your diet. You might consider trying Nutritional yeast or Brewer's yeast as a source of B-vitamins, since it also contains healthy amounts of the amino acids that can be very helpful with brain function.
As for B 6 vitamin, I don't take over 50mg of this supplement daily, and I don't take it daily, but every other day or so. I'm not one to take vitamins on a daily basis, but every other day works for me. I have depression and anxiety.
For those who must take the drug levodopa the following foods should be consumed in moderation only: bananas, beef, fish, liver, oatmeal, peanuts, potatoes, and whole grains in moderation, as these foods contain vitamin B 6, which interferes with the drug's potency. And one should not take supplemental B 6, as it counteracts the drug's therapeutic effects.
A good choice to reduce tics is calcium. Use calcium citrate form with vitamin D. Has a relaxing effect. It can be taken on an empty stomach and is great taken at bedtime. Magnesium is also important as it calms the nervous system and muscle spasms. Take 700 mg daily, in divided doses. Take between meals, on an empty stomach, with apple cider vinegar or betaine HCI. Selenium is important as well. Do not take more than 40 mcg daily if you are pregnant. The amino acid taurine is helpful, as directed on label. Supplemental tyrosine amino acid as well as superoxide dismutase may be of help as well. SOD is an enzyme that revitalises cells and reducs the rate of cell destruction. Another excellent source of this is found in barley grass. I use the product Magma Plus by Green Foods. It costs more than other brands, but it tastes the best. It is best taken on an empty stomach 2 hours after a meal, or 20 minutes prior a meal. Store in fridge.
Take care and hope this helps, Fuscia
Posted by d miller on July 7, 2002, at 13:28:51
In reply to Re: Vitamin B's TOO much can cause problems..., posted by jay on July 6, 2002, at 3:39:41
I too noticed that about b vitamins. I take a good multi vit. a cal/mag, vit e and 1,000 of vit c. Every time I tried to include the b-complex vit, I would feel more anxious. I already suffer from GAD and OCD so I don't need to add to the anxiety level.
I did think maybe it was just me so I'm gald to hear that more people are like me.
If you go to a good health food store and read some of the books that are available like Depression Free Naturally, and Depression-Free for Life. B vit are suppose to play a major role in undoing anxiety.
I have gone to a Orthomolecular Doctor, and in my opinion they charge such a high fee ( that insurance will not cover) and they make you take so many tests, (which you think will get to the answer of whats wrong with you) again they cost a fortune and insurance will not cover because they put it under alternative health. Most of the holistic doctors in these fields are so against western medicine. They make you feel horrible that you have to take a antidepresant.
They beleive that natural is the only way, you leave the office just as confused about your condition and a bag full of bottles of vits. minerals, herbs etc. and no money in your pockets.D. Miller
Posted by Essence on July 7, 2002, at 17:23:16
In reply to Re: Vitamin B's TOO much can cause problems..., posted by d miller on July 7, 2002, at 13:28:51
I have been on Remeron since January, Clonazepam since March. Initially on the Remeron I experienced restless legs and arms, apparently a known side affect according to the insert in the packaging. This side affect however did disappear in time.
Last Saturday when getting my RX's filled, I told the pharmacist that the Clonazepam was only partially working on my anxiety, she suggested a Vitamin B-complex and I bought a bottle. Since starting them, the restless legs and arms side affects are back. Any ideas if it could be the Vitamin B and not the Remeron causing this since it started up again after starting the vitamin B?
Posted by Fuscia on July 7, 2002, at 21:52:30
In reply to Re: Vitamin B's -TD exasperbation? , posted by Fuscia on July 7, 2002, at 12:44:08
Hello,
I wanted to add that the best B-vitamin complex brands are those sold in divided doses, so you only receive a small amount of each B vit at one time. Mega doses at one time are not good. Vitamin B complex, or a multi vit/min with a high amount of vitamin B's should not be taken late in the day as the B vitamins increase energy and thus can cause insomnia, as well as anxiety for certain individuals. I take a B-complex that contains a 50 mg ratio for 4 capsules. I only take one, two tops, a day and not every day. Mainly because I forget to take them, but also I don't want to over do it. A much safer form of B vitamins is found in Nutritional Yeast and Brewer's Yeast as these products contain much small amounts than what you would find in many multiple vit/mins, as well as B-complex supplements.
From what I found out by searching the internet, and there is much that is not known about the cause of tics, is that tardive dyskenisia can be a result of dopamine oversensitivity. Vitamin B6 is a cofactor in dopamine production. Dopamine and its agonists play an important role in cardiovascular, renal, hormonal, and central nervous system regulation through stimulation of alpha and beta adrenergic and dopaminergic receptors. Stimulation of adrenergic receptors as a result of increase in dopamine can cause tics as well. There appears to be a reciprocal seesaw relationship between acetylcholine and dopamine and their respective nerve cell systems, so if you increase dopamine, it can result in a decrease in acetylcholine.
The tardive movement disorder would seem to occur when the increased sensitivity "overshoots" and causes increased muscle activity. Minute amounts of dopamine, which in the past were not enough to stimulate the receptor mechanism, now stimulate the sensitive receptors and cause movement in the muscles. If this is the case, you would want to watch your intake of vitamin B 6 if you have tics. Other symptoms of excessive dopamine include bruxism (teeth grinding), constipation, dry mouth, sexual dysfunction, and urinary retention. Highly excessive amounts can cause confusion, delirium, and hallucinations.
Something else to consider is the brand of vitamin or mineral you are taking. If one brand is giving you problems, you might consider switching to another brand to see if any unwanted effects disappear. My husband saw an article on the news of some independent consumer lab testing batches of different vitamin and other supplement brands and found that some contained trace amounts of steroids.
I'm all for taking supplemental vitamins and minerals, but do so cautiously and take below the suggested dose. I also agree with the post about Milk Thistle extract. It does wonders for the liver as tests have shown. It is best taken with lecithin. Take lecithin just before a meal and the milk thistle supplement after the meal. Milk Thistle protects the liver from toxins and pollutants by preventing free radical damage. It also protects the kidneys. CoEnzyme Q-10 is also something I take regularly for it is a powerful antioxidant (also called ubiquinone). According to Prescription for Nutritional Healing by Phyllis Balch, CNC, and James Balch, M.D. "This substance plays a critical role in the production of energy in every cell of the body. It aids circulation, stimulates the immune system, increases tissue oxygenation, and has vital anti-aging effects. Deficiencies of coenzyme Q 10 have been linked to periodontal disease, diabetes, and muscular dystrophy. Research has revealed that supplemental coenzyme Q 10 has the ability to counter histamine, and therefore is beneficial for people with allergies, asthma, or respiratory disese. It is used by many health care professionals to treat anomalies of mental function such as those associated with schizophrenia and Alzheimer's disease. It is beneficial in fighting obesity, candidiasis, multiple sclerosis, and diabetes."
Take care, Fuscia
Posted by Kari on July 8, 2002, at 7:48:21
In reply to Re: Vitamin B's, TD, Milk Thistle, Coenzyme Q10 , posted by Fuscia on July 7, 2002, at 21:52:30
Hi Fuscia,
Thank you for this information!
Do you think that choline bitrate in the B complex can also have an effect?
It's been weeks since I no longer take the vitamins and paradoxically I feel symptoms indicative of lack of dopamine along with the tics- slow movement, weakness, muscle rigidity and low blood pressure (started while still taking B).
From now on I will be careful about what I take :)Thanks again,
Kari.
Posted by Fuscia on July 8, 2002, at 13:23:03
In reply to Re: Vitamin B's, TD, Milk Thistle, Coenzyme Q10 » Fuscia, posted by Kari on July 8, 2002, at 7:48:21
Hi Kari,
I'm glad you asked for I was pondering about some other actions of the B vitamins as well as acetycholine My mind goes too fast at times, but it is also a question and learning experience for me.
Firstly, not all of the B-vits are energizers. Some have a calming effect, such as inositol. Research has shown that high doses of inositol may help in the treatment of depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and anxiety disorders, without the side effects of prescription medicines. It also enhances REM sleep. My book here suggests 100 mg at bedtime. Large amounts of caffeine consumption may cause a shortage of inositol in the body.
Vitamin B 12 (cyanocobalmin) has also been shown to enhance sleep patterns, especially for those who fall asleep, with intermittent bouts of waking. It is also linked to the production of acetylcholine. Many of the mood disorder drugs have anticholinergic effects (depletion of acetylcholine) and can result in ticks, so B 12 would be a good idea in my mind to help counteract this by increasing acetylcholine. Constipation is another indicator of low acetylcholine.
It is best to take B 12 on an empty stomach, or better yet, take a sublingual form, which is a lozenge form that you allow to disolve under the tongue. I have KAL brand B-12 2000 mcg, lemon flavoured lozenges. I took one last night and I slept very well. Last few nights I haven't been sleeping as deeply.
Choline, one of the other B vits, is as its name implies, is a precursor to acetylcholine (made simply from choline and a two-carbon molecule called acetyl.)
Note: Choline is not to be used by people who are manic depressive, because choline (or any compound which is a precursor to acetylcholine, such as DMAE, lecithin) can deepen the depressive phase. In my book here, it does say that it is beneficial for disorders of the nervous system such as Parkinson's disease and tardive dyskinesia. Egg yolks is a good source of choline as well as legumes, meat, milk, and whole-grain cereals.
Vitamin B 5 (pantothenic acid), and vitamin B 1 are also essential for converting choline to acetylcholine.
Back to your question. I would suggest that you try Nutritional Yeast (I like the brand from TwinLabs for it tastes pretty good compared to others, and you only need 1 tablespoon mixed with liquid verses 3 tablespoons of other brands, especially of Brewer's Yeast.) This way you get all of the B vitamins in small amounts, plus amino acids. Then try adding a singular B vitamin that you think you might need and see how it goes. If you think you have low dopamine levels (Low D symptoms include: anxiety or depression, itching, weakness, obsessions worse, poor coordination, Parkinson's symptoms) then try 50mg of B 6. Or, try one of the above listed B vitamins, but only add them singularly, this way you can weed out any potential problems from any one type of vitamin B if one causes an increase in tics.
Here is something interesting: (http://www.priory.com/psych/ach.htm)Psychiatry On-Line
"Extrapyramidal symptoms induced by neuroleptic administration are believed to result from the same mechanism and the disturbance in balance between the striatal dopaminergic and cholinergic systems as a result of dopaminergic antagonism produced by neuroleptics is believed to be the cause of neuroleptic-induced EPS (Snyder et al, 1974). Thus, the treatment strategy utilized in the treatment of EPS is aimed towards restoring this imbalance."Since this is the case for you I would think your aim would be to find a balance between the two neurotransmitters acetylcholine and dopamine. How to do this through the use of supplements could probably be achieved, but you would have to experiment to see which works for you. I'd first try the Nutritional or Brewer's yeast first on its own taken for a week, then if you want try adding singular B 6, or the acetylcholine precursor choline with it's enhancers B 1 & B 5. I would try increasing acetylcholine first, but that is just my opinion. Since the yeast drinks are excellent sources of most of the amino acids, you would be getting an increase in dopamine as well as norepinephrine and serotonin. If you wanted to increase this even more, the singular amino acid L-tyrosine would be the choice as it is a precursor to dopamine and norepinephrine. It is suggested to take it on an empty stomach with a small amount of B6 and vitamin C to enhance absorption. I suggest folks take it for only two months, then discontinue for a month since singular amino acids are powerful substances, especially those that act as neurotransmitter precursors.
You might also try essential fatty acids for muscle rigidity and weakness. Black currant seed oil, flaxseed oil, primrose oil, and EPA from marine fish oil are all good sources. This is another supplement I take on occasion, which I take just prior to a meal. I have borage oil, primrose oil, flaxseed oil, and EPA/DHA efa's in our fridge.
I would also urge you to try one of the green drinks that are sold in most health food stores. You can also get them in tablet or capsule form. But these green drinks, which contain mostly barley grass or wheat grass, besides other vegie sources, are full of live enzymes that asist in practically all bodily functions, containing both digestive as well as metabolic enzymes. I keep mine in the fridge to keep the enzymes alive. Another good product is Infla-Zyme from American Biologics. You can order these from www.vitaminshoppe.com, and I think www.iHerb.com sells it as well. I didn't like Vitamin Shoppe brand barley green drink for it didn't dissolve very well in water and it has a strong flavour that takes some getting used to. Magma Plus by Green Foods is by far the best.
I hope this will help you if you do try it. Take care, Fuscia
Posted by Kari on July 9, 2002, at 12:28:36
In reply to Re: Kari - Vitamin B's, choline, etc, posted by Fuscia on July 8, 2002, at 13:23:03
This is the end of the thread.
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