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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 34 to 58 of 68. Go back in thread:
Posted by judy1 on October 26, 2001, at 15:29:10
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds » sar, posted by Elizabeth on October 26, 2001, at 11:22:02
You mentioned having a seizure (like) episode recently- I wasn't aware of you experiencing that particular problem. Have you had a thorough work-up by an epileptologist (sp?), the kind where they keep you 24 hours and monitor you? My pdoc has been pushing that for months for me and I was wondering if you had in fact done something similar. Hope you are feeling well- Judy
Posted by Elizabeth on October 26, 2001, at 16:28:10
In reply to Elizabeth?, posted by judy1 on October 26, 2001, at 15:29:10
> You mentioned having a seizure (like) episode recently- I wasn't aware of you experiencing that particular problem.
I've been pretty open about it. See http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010917/msgs/79454.html
for details.> Have you had a thorough work-up by an epileptologist (sp?), the kind where they keep you 24 hours and monitor you?
I've had a 72-hour EEG. I've had all kinds of EEGs in the last few years, all normal. I'm planning on setting up an appointment with a neurologist (waiting for a referral).
> My pdoc has been pushing that for months for me and I was wondering if you had in fact done something similar. Hope you are feeling well- Judy
What, your pdoc wants you to see a neurologist? I dunno whether it's reasonable, I guess it depends on what kind of symptoms you're having.
-elizabeth
Posted by judy1 on October 26, 2001, at 22:54:59
In reply to Re: stuff » judy1, posted by Elizabeth on October 26, 2001, at 16:28:10
Hi Elizabeth,
Perhaps missing your posts is a good enough reason to see a neurologist :-) I do see one regularly however. I've had 2 fairly serious car accidents in the last 3 years, both resulting in gran mal seizures, the last 30 minutes LOC. My cycling (bipolar) has considerably worsened since the first accident, and my shrink feels there is a connection between bipolar, panic and epilepsy which is why he wants a thorough work-up in the hospital. I have had normal CTs, EEGs and MRIs- except for herniated discs that 2 neurosurgeons will not touch because of my mood disorder, apparently they have had very little luck in surgery on people with depression and often a very rocky post-op course. Does trileptal work for you? Are you experiencing symptoms frequently? I have memory and dissociation problems- probably attributable to my dissociative disorder but I happen to have a very thorough pdoc. Take care- judy
Posted by Elizabeth on October 28, 2001, at 10:13:51
In reply to Re: stuff » Elizabeth, posted by judy1 on October 26, 2001, at 22:54:59
Hi Judy.
> I've had 2 fairly serious car accidents in the last 3 years, both resulting in gran mal seizures, the last 30 minutes LOC.
(You mean "resulting *from* grand mal seizures," right?)
If the seizure lasted 30 minutes, that would be considered generalized status epilepticus -- very serious. It's a good thing that you survived. Maybe the loss of consciousness could be a postictal phenomenon, I don't know. I did have a pretty long-lasting lapse in memory this most recent time.
The episodes I've had are very infrequent and would be considered complex partial seizures (if they were, indeed, seizures at all). "Partial" means that seizure activity is confined to one part of the brain, and "complex" means that there is a disturbance of consciousness (memory loss).
> My cycling (bipolar) has considerably worsened since the first accident, and my shrink feels there is a connection between bipolar, panic and epilepsy which is why he wants a thorough work-up in the hospital.
Are you only having generalized (grand mal) seizures? A lot of people with epilepsy have psychiatric problems too, especially mood disorders (sometimes called "interictal dysphoria"), and sometimes limbic seizures can present as panic attacks.
> I have had normal CTs, EEGs and MRIs- except for herniated discs that 2 neurosurgeons will not touch because of my mood disorder, apparently they have had very little luck in surgery on people with depression and often a very rocky post-op course.
That's curious. Perhaps they want people to discontinue their medications before surgery. That could certainly make the recovery "rocky."
> Does trileptal work for you?
I can't tell if it works. I haven't had another episode since I've been taking it, but then, the interval between the last one and the one before that had been around 6 months.
> I have memory and dissociation problems- probably attributable to my dissociative disorder but I happen to have a very thorough pdoc.
Seizures, even partial seizures, often cause memory lapses and dissociative symptoms. Don't rule it out.
-elizabeth
Posted by judy1 on October 28, 2001, at 10:51:22
In reply to Re: stuff » judy1, posted by Elizabeth on October 28, 2001, at 10:13:51
Hi Elizabeth,
Thank you for your input. Actually my seizures resulted from my car accidents. The last was minor compared to the first (helicopter ride which I don't remember- damn). According to my neurologist, just the type of shaking from a care accident can set off a seizure (generalized) and as a result I've lost privileges to roller coasters, etc. I agree that dissociative symptoms are similar to partial seizures, but I recently lost 2 days so I think I'm grasping at straws here. Please let me know how your testing goes and I hope the trileptal working isn't merely a coincidence. Take care- Judy
Posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 0:04:09
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds » sar, posted by Elizabeth on October 26, 2001, at 11:22:02
> > right, give me enough time w/ the DSM and it's dangerous... :)
>
> Did you see the movie they made of Girl, Interrupted? There's a scene where Winona Ryder reads the diagnostic criteria for BPD (which actually were only first spelled out in 1980, in DSM-III) and says something to the effect of, "That is *so* me." To which Angelina Jolie replies, "That's everybody." < g >
true, true! after i saw the movie i read susannah kaysen's book and loved it....particularly because she disputes her BPD dx and didn't even find out about it until years fetr she'd been hospitalised. and susannah's character in Girl--she wasn't psychotic, was she? she certainly didn't seem strange to me...striking point of the movie....she seemed so disturbed-normal--like a normal teenage girl!!...i'm glad yopu remembered what Jolie's character said...
> > i agree. reading about problems that people with BPD frequently have helped open my eyes to some faults that i have but i really wasn't fully aware of...
>
> That's understandable. I think that a lot of people could learn some things about themselves by reading about psychological disorders -- including "normies." :-)it's a fine line, eh?
> > at the time of the dx, i *wanted* a label so i could go get books and understand why i felt and acted so crazy.
>
> That's understandable, too. But getting yourself labelled "borderline" usually isn't in your best interests, IMO (although you had no way of knowing that at the time).
that's why my psychoanalyst would not dx me as "borderline," though she said i probably met 5 or 6 of the citeria. she said that life insurance companies have a way of prejudicing (is that a word?) against the mentally ill and especially against "borderlines" because they have a relatve;y high suicide rate...so officially she dx'd me with an "adjustment disoder."
>
> Heh. Until recently I lived in Cambridge, Mass. Boston (and the surrounding area) is swarming with psychiatrists, nearly all of them HMS alums and/or HMS-affiliated.have you read the elizabeth wurtzel book? for awhile i momentarily thot that perhaps you were wurtzel. what is your profession?
>
>
> See, I think that patients should have some protection as to what goes into their medical records. A lot of doctors are quick to make stigmatizing diagnoses. (IMO, a lot of the "personality disorder" labels are best considered name-calling rather than legitimate diagnoses.)i agree with you. i can't say i really give a shit about what they write about me because it hasn't affected me so far, but the so out-in-theleft-field diagnoses leave me...untrusting and bewildered. this guy was so sure that i'm histrionic...i'd *never* thought that of myself, though i'd completely identified with and reconciled with having social anxiety disorder. this doc's beef may have been socioeconimic, i don't know...i just know i was the only white person in his wair\ting room, and by far the vest-dressed (not to brag on myself...only to illustrate that one of the best docs on tpwn chose to run a clinic for the poor downtown)
> > Whether or not I've got BPII is up in the air--but i've done my reading and gotten my drugs...i'm all labelled out. i just want to feel better (and i have been).
>
> Good! That's the point of all this -- to help us feel okay and get our lives back together, not to satisfy some doctor's ego. ;-)
>
> > i agree. the labels helped me w/ research because i've not been able to afford a decent therapist in many months (no insurance).
>
> My insurance recently lapsed, and I've been worried ever since. I actually had one of these seizure-like episodes recently and was really worried, but it turned out that I could get financial assistance to pay the hospital bills. (I haven't any firm evidence that the episodes are in fact seizures, but all the doctors I've spoken to say that's what it sounds like.)
What kind of job do you have? your posts seem v. educated...> > i think it also depends on whether or not one considers the label "perjorative."
>
> If clinicians tend to become prejudiced against you based on no relevant information other than the diagnosis, I'd say it's "pejorative." "Stigmatizing" is probably a better word.
this particular pdoc seemed to have a unique argumentative attraction toward me, whcih i was unaccustomed to. i rememebered why i'd always requested females docs. the guy seemed prejudiced in the sense that (and i saw him for months) because my skin is white and eys blue, because i can afford to shop at the mall, because i smell od soap and wear expensive sung;asses i could NOT POSSIBLY have a mental illness, that i should feel oh-so happy lucky and safe in suburbia as opposed to where he grew up OH 50 YEARS AGO ON THE WEST-SIDE, endogenous vs exogenous, of f*** that sh**..."you're privilged, you should be happy..." no, mofo, i come from much sadder...elizabeth, i really appreciate your participation on the board. are you a doctor at all? you seem v. knowledgeable.
my best,
sar
> > the male psychiatrist told me that borderlines and histrionics are very charming and attractive.
>
> Oh jeez. (Actually, I wouldn't say that of BPD necessarily, but it's practically part of the definition of HPD. It's considered "manipulative," though, so I wouldn't take it as a compliment.)
>
> > what a nut, no wonder i'm not seeing him anymore...(that's the one who went to Harvard).
>
> Harvard graduates nuts too. (You should see the undergrads.)
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 9:40:48
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds » Elizabeth, posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 0:04:09
sorry, i wrote that last message while highly winedrunk...ugh! delete!
Posted by judy1 on October 29, 2001, at 10:07:51
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 9:40:48
Sar,
I hope you don't mind me reading your post to Elizabeth, I don't think you have anything to apologize for- you made a lot of sense. I'm curious about how old you are- 20's? On my journey of different diagnosis, I got BPD and histrionic a lot (and also schizophrenic during psychotic episodes); turning 30 I lost the BPD, kept the histrionic (and bipolar as my main diagnosis). Now I am having a lot of difficulty with dissociative disorder so that is getting focused on. I agree with Elizabeth that you really don't want a BPD (bitch pissed doc- sorry) diagnosis, it won't help you in getting treatment and in all probablility isn't the correct diagnosis. Just my 2 cents. Take care, Judy
Posted by Elizabeth on October 29, 2001, at 10:18:57
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds » Elizabeth, posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 0:04:09
Hi there. I'll believe you if you say you were drunk when you wrote this, but I'm responding anyway. :-) (You didn't sound drunk, BTW.)
> true, true! after i saw the movie i read susannah kaysen's book and loved it....particularly because she disputes her BPD dx and didn't even find out about it until years fetr she'd been hospitalised.
Yes. She wrote about it in the epilogue to her book, I think. I read the book before the movie came out, and I was really psyched when I found out they were making a movie of it. The hospital where she was locked up is McLean, a Harvard-affiliated psychiatric teaching hospital about a half-hour drive from where I used to live in Cambridge.
After my parents read the book, they gave me a print of the Vermeer painting from which the book takes its title ("Girl Interrupted at Her Music" - http://www.mystudios.com/vermeer/12/vermeer-girl-interrupted.html). My life has been "interrupted" too (I was diagnosed with depression when I was 14, and it got a lot worse in college).
> and susannah's character in Girl--she wasn't psychotic, was she?
No. BPD isn't a psychotic disorder.
> she certainly didn't seem strange to me...
She'd attempted suicide (or made what is sometimes called a "suicide gesture" -- I was never clear as to why she did it). And back in those days, once you were in the psych hospital you'd often be stuck there for months or even years.
> striking point of the movie....she seemed so disturbed-normal--like a normal teenage girl!!...
I think adolescence should be considered a mental illness. :-)
> that's why my psychoanalyst would not dx me as "borderline," though she said i probably met 5 or 6 of the citeria.
I guess that made you "borderline borderline?" < g >
> she said that life insurance companies have a way of prejudicing (is that a word?) against the mentally ill and especially against "borderlines" because they have a relatve;y high suicide rate...so officially she dx'd me with an "adjustment disoder."
That's probably more accurate for a lot of people diagnosed as "borderline," especially teenagers. One important criterion for BPD that is often ignored, I think, is that the symptoms must have been stable and enduring.
I don't think that people with BPD have such a high suicide rate -- it's probably close to the rate for major depression or bipolar disorder, maybe a little lower. Anyway, don't life insurance policies usually refuse to pay if the death is a suicide?
BPD has a reputation for being hard to treat, and many people with BPD are frequently hospitalized.
I'd expect it to be hard to get health insurance if you have BPD.> have you read the elizabeth wurtzel book?
Prozac Nation? Yes. She actually sounds like she might be borderline, although she only mentions being diagnosed with atypical depression. She's had lots of problems with drug abuse as well, I think.
> for awhile i momentarily thot that perhaps you were wurtzel.
LOL! No, I went to MIT, not Harvard. :-)
> what is your profession?
"Student, on medical leave."
> this guy was so sure that i'm histrionic...i'd *never* thought that of myself, though i'd completely identified with and reconciled with having social anxiety disorder.
Did he give any reason for considering you histrionic? Sometimes the way that we appear to other people is very different from how we feel inside, so it's not impossible that a social phobic could appear histrionic -- but it does seem pretty unlikely!
> this particular pdoc seemed to have a unique argumentative attraction toward me, whcih i was unaccustomed to. i rememebered why i'd always requested females docs. the guy seemed prejudiced in the sense that (and i saw him for months) because my skin is white and eys blue, because i can afford to shop at the mall, because i smell od soap and wear expensive sung;asses i could NOT POSSIBLY have a mental illness, that i should feel oh-so happy lucky and safe in suburbia as opposed to where he grew up OH 50 YEARS AGO ON THE WEST-SIDE, endogenous vs exogenous, of f*** that sh**..."you're privilged, you should be happy..." no, mofo, i come from much sadder...
I can see that. A lot of people don't get how a financially well-off, educated person who had a pretty good childhood could be seriously depressed -- it's a problem I've run into as well.
-elizabeth
Posted by PattyG on October 29, 2001, at 15:14:38
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds » sar, posted by Elizabeth on October 26, 2001, at 11:22:02
(Elizabeth wrote)
My insurance recently lapsed, and I've been worried ever since. I actually had one of these seizure-like episodes
recently and was really worried, but it turned out that I could get financial assistance to pay the hospital bills. (I
haven't any firm evidence that the episodes are in fact seizures, but all the doctors I've spoken to say that's what it
sounds like.)////Good heavens - *please* share how one gets this type of assistance. My son has insurance with Unicare (but they *don't* care) and he had to sign a 10 year waiver for anything to do with mental health issues and a 5 year waiver for seizure issues. (He had already had the one before going with Unicare.) Now the bills are coming in after his second seizure (ER, ambulance, scans, blood work, office visits, etc.) Someone said the insurance companies can't ask for more than 1 year on such a waiver, but they seem to think they can. Any thoughts on this?
Also - I attended a two-day seminar put on by the Marsha Linehan Group on Dialectical Behavior Therapy and I asked the two doctors who presented if in all their research, etc., they'd found there to be any correlation between BPD and seizure activity. They both said, "YES!" I was very excited about that and now hope to be able to find something in writing. Some of the parents in a support group have theorized that there is something "mis-firing" in the brain when Borderlines rage. (For lack of a more professional way to describe it! < g >) Anyway, what does everyone think? I was really excited to get this info.
Just now catching up on the postings - being gone for two days really puts me behind around here!
PattyG
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 29, 2001, at 16:06:28
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by PattyG on October 29, 2001, at 15:14:38
I recently read a report tht said the Lymbic area o f the brin is often enlarged in BPD patients.
Thats all I remember of it so don;t know if its of any use!!
Nikki
Posted by PattyG on October 29, 2001, at 21:35:30
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder , posted by NikkiT2 on October 29, 2001, at 16:06:28
(Nikki wrote)
I recently read a report tht said the Lymbic area o f the brin is often enlarged in BPD patients.Thats all I remember of it so don;t know if its of any use!!
/////Do you, by chance, remember where you read this?
PattyG
Posted by Elizabeth on October 30, 2001, at 12:15:50
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder , posted by PattyG on October 29, 2001, at 21:35:30
> /////Do you, by chance, remember where you read this?
It's commonly thought that the limbic system is responsible for emotional regulation, which is disrupted in BPD.
-elizabeth
Posted by Twain on October 30, 2001, at 15:14:11
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder , posted by PattyG on October 29, 2001, at 21:35:30
I was diagnosed BPD in 1990, in addition to schizophrenic, histronic, avoidant, anti-social, depressed, and so forth. In and out of hospitals. Now it's PTSD stemming from childhood trauma. Alcoholic mother stabbed my father in the chest in front of me when I was two. He lived. She used to threaten me and my sister with a knife and stick pins in us. Finally, my sister and I ended up in a foster home. My father was drunk and gone all the time.
Anyway, later in college, after more trauma in the army (early 70's), I started cutting myself for no reason. Face, arms, abdomen, legs,. This seems to be part of the Borderline Personality Disorder.
I quit cutting myself in my late 20's but major depression set in. After a decade of living in a virtual cave on the Oregon Coast, I got married during a brief relapse of sobriety.
Seeking one cure after another for anxiety and depression I had all the amalgam (mercury) fillings removed and noticed a dramatic increase in energy. Couldn't handle it. Spent the next two years in and out of VA hospitals. Diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and nearly committed.
Finally, experienced relief when I, then a devout atheist, attended a pentacostal church that laid hands on the sick. Had a "born again" experience but it didn't turn me into a fundamentalist bible-thumper.
But lately I've been slipping. Now a divorced dad raising my 16 year old daughter. She came to live with me full time about a year and a half ago and I've been overwhelmed at times. Tried numerous anti-depressants and even a few anti-psychotics. Flew into a rage (not at my daughter) with the landlord, lawyer, and others. Serzone made me so angry.
Anyway, the past cutting behavior, the homocidal mother and childhood abandonment, the rage that comes out of nowhere, my histronic behavior, alcoholism and a tendency to manipulate people with charm - all seem to be borderline personality traits.
I'm now taking neurotin but not sure after ten days whether it is helping. Any suggestions for this disorder? Although my current pdoc thinks PTSD is at the root of my problem.
Anyone else with BPD have cutting behavior?
Posted by sar on October 30, 2001, at 15:39:20
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds » sar, posted by Elizabeth on October 29, 2001, at 10:18:57
> Hi there. I'll believe you if you say you were drunk when you wrote this, but I'm responding anyway. :-) (You didn't sound drunk, BTW.)
thanks...but i was many more than 3 sheets to the wind... :)
> After my parents read the book, they gave me a print of the Vermeer painting from which the book takes its title ("Girl Interrupted at Her Music" - http://www.mystudios.com/vermeer/12/vermeer-girl-interrupted.html). My life has been "interrupted" too (I was diagnosed with depression when I was 14, and it got a lot worse in college).thanks for the link to the painting, i stared at it for quite awhile...
> She'd attempted suicide (or made what is sometimes called a "suicide gesture" -- I was never clear as to why she did it). And back in those days, once you were in the psych hospital you'd often be stuck there for months or even years.yeah...i guess i just know too many people who have attempted it or made "gestures" to consider it weird. you get so depressed sometimes that it just makes sense...
> I think adolescence should be considered a mental illness. :-)ha ha...what about early adulthood?
> > that's why my psychoanalyst would not dx me as "borderline," though she said i probably met 5 or 6 of the citeria.
>
> I guess that made you "borderline borderline?" < g >yeah...here's another interesting thing: she's a freudian psychoanalyst (i've stopped seeing her) and believed that depression must be preceeded by a personality disorder...so every depressed person is at least mildly personality-disordered. what do you make of that?
> I don't think that people with BPD have such a high suicide rate -- it's probably close to the rate for major depression or bipolar disorder, maybe a little lower. Anyway, don't life insurance policies usually refuse to pay if the death is a suicide?i'm not sure about that, she just mentioned the life insurance...my dad is actually having a very difficult time getting life insurance right now--physically healthy man who's led a clean life, but he dabbled in AD's in the nineties...and the insurance co's don't want him...
> Did he give any reason for considering you histrionic? Sometimes the way that we appear to other people is very different from how we feel inside, so it's not impossible that a social phobic could appear histrionic -- but it does seem pretty unlikely!mmmm...skimpy clothes, i was a little bit drunk, and my social anxiety tends to melt away if i'm in the company of only one other person. also, it's been shown that many people with social anxiety don't *appear* to have it...you can't *see* heart palpitations or butterflies in the stomach, sweaty underarms, or another person's tunnel vision...it's possible to act like a completely normal person while experiencing those symptoms.
>
> I can see that. A lot of people don't get how a financially well-off, educated person who had a pretty good childhood could be seriously depressed -- it's a problem I've run into as well.yes, i'm glad you were able to make sense of what i wrote, i was gittin kinda riled up over it--he told me, "oh, you've just read too much Ayn Rand." (i've never read any of her books, nor do i want to.) "too much Camus," he said then. i could have bitten him.
thanks, Elizabeth.
take care,
sar
Posted by Elizabeth on October 30, 2001, at 20:37:42
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder , posted by Twain on October 30, 2001, at 15:14:11
Twain,
A lot of people with BPD had chaotic, traumatizing childhoods. That sort of childhood history doesn't always result in a personality disorder, but it often does (I'm not sure how we'd go about gathering statistics!). Anyway given the way your life started out, I would be surprised if there weren't serious long-term effects on you. I hope that things are getting better for you now.
Cutting (sometimes called "self-injury," "self-mutilation," or "parasuicidal behavior") is a common symptom of BPD, but not everyone with BPD cuts and not everyone who cuts has BPD. I don't really understand why people compulsively cut or otherwise or otherwise hurt themselves, although I've know a number of people who do (or did) it. It seems to have some of the qualities of an addiction, and one person I know says that naltrexone helped her stop. People are also often helped by antidepressants and/or anticonvulsants.
> Seeking one cure after another for anxiety and depression I had all the amalgam (mercury) fillings removed and noticed a dramatic increase in energy. Couldn't handle it. Spent the next two years in and out of VA hospitals. Diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and nearly committed.
That's strange. What do you mean when you say you couldn't handle the increase in energy -- were you becoming agitated? What happened?
> Finally, experienced relief when I, then a devout atheist, attended a pentacostal church that laid hands on the sick. Had a "born again" experience but it didn't turn me into a fundamentalist bible-thumper.
That's good :-) Whatever works, I say.
> But lately I've been slipping.
Have you continued going to church? That can be a great support. If not, I hope you have some sort of support network.
> Now a divorced dad raising my 16 year old daughter.
Ouch, that must be tough. I hope you're managing -- both of you.
> Tried numerous anti-depressants and even a few anti-psychotics.
Something that pops to mind is anticonvulsant mood stabilizers, like Depakote, Tegretol (or its newer cousin Trileptal), Lamictal, Topamax, and Neurontin; if the Neurontin you're taking now doesn't do the trick, I think it would be worthwhile to give the other ones a try. These drugs can help with "anger attacks" (as they're sometimes called). The efficacy of Depakote and Tegretol for these types of symptoms is particularly well-documented.
> Anyway, the past cutting behavior, the homocidal mother and childhood abandonment, the rage that comes out of nowhere, my histronic behavior, alcoholism and a tendency to manipulate people with charm - all seem to be borderline personality traits.
Jeez, I wish I could manipulate people with charm! (I'm *not* a charming person.) Consider it a gift, I say (just don't misuse it of course).
> I'm now taking neurotin but not sure after ten days whether it is helping. Any suggestions for this disorder? Although my current pdoc thinks PTSD is at the root of my problem.
Have you heard of complex PTSD? It's sort of a cross between PTSD and BPD. Here are a couple of good descriptions:
http://www.ncptsd.org/facts/specific/fs_complex_ptsd.html
http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/cptsd.html
> Anyone else with BPD have cutting behavior?
Lots of people do, yes.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on October 30, 2001, at 22:59:23
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds » Elizabeth, posted by sar on October 30, 2001, at 15:39:20
> thanks for the link to the painting, i stared at it for quite awhile...
Yeah, isn't Vermeer great? He's one of my favourite artists.
> yeah...i guess i just know too many people who have attempted it or made "gestures" to consider it weird. you get so depressed sometimes that it just makes sense...
"Danger to self or others" is grounds for being committed involuntarily (in Massachusetts and probably every other state), regardless of whether it's understandable or makes sense!
> > I think adolescence should be considered a mental illness. :-)
>
> ha ha...what about early adulthood?Emotionally, adolescence lasts well beyond the time a person has finished growing, IMO.
> yeah...here's another interesting thing: she's a freudian psychoanalyst (i've stopped seeing her) and believed that depression must be preceeded by a personality disorder...so every depressed person is at least mildly personality-disordered. what do you make of that?
I think it's absurd, but some clinicians advocate adding "depressive personality disorder" to the DSM. The proposed diagnostic criteria are in the appendix to DSM-IV (you can read them, and some discussion of the concept, at http://www.geocities.com/ptypes/depressivepd.html), but there's no indication of how depressive PD would be distinguished from dysthymia.
> my dad is actually having a very difficult time getting life insurance right now--physically healthy man who's led a clean life, but he dabbled in AD's in the nineties...and the insurance co's don't want him...
Probably it's because the depression was recent (in the last decade).
> > Did he give any reason for considering you histrionic?
>
> mmmm...skimpy clothes, i was a little bit drunk, and my social anxiety tends to melt away if i'm in the company of only one other person.Alcohol probably has a disinhibiting effect, too. (You went to see your shrink drunk? Jeez! < g >)
> also, it's been shown that many people with social anxiety don't *appear* to have it...you can't *see* heart palpitations or butterflies in the stomach, sweaty underarms, or another person's tunnel vision...it's possible to act like a completely normal person while experiencing those symptoms.
I know. I've actually known quite a few people who professed to have very bad social anxiety but who outwardly seemed to be very skilled at dealing with people.
> > A lot of people don't get how a financially well-off, educated person who had a pretty good childhood could be seriously depressed -- it's a problem I've run into as well.
>
> yes, i'm glad you were able to make sense of what i wrote, i was gittin kinda riled up over it--he told me, "oh, you've just read too much Ayn Rand." (i've never read any of her books, nor do i want to.) "too much Camus," he said then. i could have bitten him.I sympathize! I think that it's unprofessional for psych clinicians to be so judgmental (especially when they try to make their value judgments sound like objective clinical observations). Anyway, I don't recommend Ayn Rand at all! I tried to read a couple of her books, but they were so dreadful I couldn't get very far. But what do her ideas have to do with what we were talking about?
> thanks, Elizabeth.
Sure thing. It's good talking with you.
-e
Posted by Cecilia on October 31, 2001, at 4:49:07
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 9:40:48
Re Elizabeth Wurtzel`s Prozac Nation-I remember the 1st thing I thought upon reading it was "borderline",though she never mentions the word, probably for stigma reasons. And yet she did improve with meds. Perhaps for some people the personality disorder causes the depression and others the depression causes the personality disorder and which came 1st determines the "curability".
Posted by PattyG on October 31, 2001, at 8:04:49
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by Cecilia on October 31, 2001, at 4:49:07
(Cecilia wrote)
Perhaps for some
people the personality disorder causes the depression and others the depression causes the personality disorder and
which came 1st determines the "curability".////That's interesting - is this proven or theory? Because I asked some professionals about the concept of untreated depression, etc. being the cause of BPD and the answer was negative. Personally, I wonder.
PattyG
Posted by PattyG on October 31, 2001, at 17:16:06
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds » Elizabeth, posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 0:04:09
(Elizabeth wrote)
> My insurance recently lapsed, and I've been worried ever since. I actually had one of these seizure-like
episodes recently and was really worried, but it turned out that I could get financial assistance to pay the hospital
bills. (I haven't any firm evidence that the episodes are in fact seizures, but all the doctors I've spoken to say that's
what it sounds like.)////I must be going crazy......I'd have sworn I wrote a message of apology (of sorts) regarding this issue, but it hasn't been posted and I sent it yesterday. Well, anyway......I am *very* interested to know what you meant with regard to "financial assistance" after your insurance lapsed. My son had to sign a waiver for anything having to do with mental health issues as well as seizures (10 and 5 years respectively) and I'm now being told by some that this isn't right. The bills are coming in following his 2nd seizure for ER, ambulance, blood work, scans, doctors, etc. and Unicare just *doesn't* care. I apologized to you, Elizabeth if your source of funding was private - I have no desire to be nosy! However, if there is an agency or some type of funding he might utilize to assist with his bills, that would be wonderful.
Thanks,
PattyG
Posted by Elizabeth on October 31, 2001, at 22:15:35
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by PattyG on October 31, 2001, at 17:16:06
Patty,
Actually I'm not sure whence came the funding for my brief hospital stay last month; the hospital was a community teaching hospital, and it was an emergency situation. It might have been the government, or the hospital system (it was a teaching hospital for a state university) -- I don't know.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
BTW, mood disorders are probably misdiagnosed as personality disorders sometimes (especially in women and in people with substance abuse problems, IMO) -- generally when these people receive appropriate treatment, they no longer manifest the "personality" symptoms. I think you can get a good sense for whether the apparent personality disorder is primary or results from a mood or anxiety disorder is to look at the person's life history and see if the "personality disorder" traits have been stable and lifelong or whether they only manifested when the mood disorder appeared.
-elizabeth
Posted by Twain on October 31, 2001, at 22:18:14
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder » Twain, posted by Elizabeth on October 30, 2001, at 20:37:42
Hi Elizabeth,
Thanks for the thoughtful response and the info.
When I had the fillings removed I felt increasing anxiety or just plain physical agitation - the minutes turned to hours. I drank to deal with it but that only made the anxiety or agitation worse the next day.
After my born-again experience, I stopped seeing any doctors, and now, after 6 years, I'm seeing a pdoc. Last June, I started drinking off and on. Daughter worked late at a Pizza place all summer, my new landlord turned out to be a slumlord. Finally, when I called the fire department about a clogged kitchen sink with a 1/2 gallon of sulfuric acid in it that my landlord had dumped down the drain and left for a week, my landlord tried to evict us. Stress was too much.
I quit going to church about 2 years ago when I could no longer overcome my innate shyness. I went from playing a tambourine at church to hiding out at home. Fortunately, my daughter goes to church more than ever and is on the worship team. I still play praise music at home, pray/meditate a little and work with a minister/computer wiz. But I'm still too isolated.
When I was discharged from the army, doctors noticed my depth perception was very poor. Later, when I started seeing pdocs, the "diagnosis" hypervigilance was thrown around. Something was going on with my vision or the way my brain interpreted the signal from the eyes. I got a job at the post office by answering the opposite of what I saw on the depth perception test and getting a score of 100%. I was seeing things completely backwards or something. Anway, I gave up driving and became even further isolated.
I'm doing better and considering dc the neurotin. I often get a nagging kind of tension in the back of the head/neck that only goes away if I take more neurotin. The neurotin helped some though by sedating me.
I'm hoping to get back into some sort of meditation and drop the pdoc and the meds. Perhaps, church is a possibility. I'm dismayed about returning to the chemical balancing act and the high cost of pdoc care.
My daughter is doing great (A's in pre-cal and advanced algebra), no longer working late, and likes to play scrabble with dad.
Thanks again for your reply.
best wishes,
Twain
Posted by Cecilia on November 1, 2001, at 2:38:04
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by PattyG on October 31, 2001, at 8:04:49
> (Cecilia wrote)
>
> Perhaps for some
> people the personality disorder causes the depression and others the depression causes the personality disorder and
> which came 1st determines the "curability".
>
> ////That's interesting - is this proven or theory? Because I asked some professionals about the concept of untreated depression, etc. being the cause of BPD and the answer was negative. Personally, I wonder.
> PattyGUnfortunately, virtually everything in mental health is theory! All the DSM diagnostic criteria are compromises formed by people in committees and no one, no matter how many degrees they have, really has a clue what causes what.
Posted by PattyG on November 1, 2001, at 8:53:55
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds » PattyG, posted by Elizabeth on October 31, 2001, at 22:15:35
(Elizabeth wrote)Actually I'm not sure whence came the funding for my brief hospital stay last month; the hospital was a community teaching hospital, and it was an emergency situation. It might have been the government, or the hospital system (it was a teaching hospital for a state university) -- I don't know.
Sorry I can't be of more help./////Perhaps in your case, they knew you had no insurance at all and so no attempt was made to collect? I just figured there was some sort of "process" that took place. It's so very disconcerting when these insurance companies can pick and choose what they'll cover and you're just sol if you don't happen to work for a big company.
BTW, mood disorders are probably misdiagnosed as personality disorders sometimes (especially in women and in people with substance abuse problems, IMO) -- generally when these people receive appropriate treatment, they no longer manifest the "personality" symptoms. I think you can get a good sense for whether the apparent personality disorder is primary or results from a mood or anxiety disorder is to look at the person's life history and see if the "personality disorder" traits have been stable and lifelong or whether they only manifested when the mood disorder appeared.
/////Yes, well in my son's case, I always knew that "something was wrong." I first spoke to a psychiatrist about him when he was 18 mos. old - very sad/solemn child. He has suffered from depression all of his life and the BPD "began" as Oppositional Defiant Conduct Disorder, which many professionals are now realizing can be the early onset of BPD. My experience has been that more often than not, many male Borderlines are incorrectly diagnosed as having Antisocial PD.
Thanks for the info - if you think of any more particulars regarding the hospital bill situation, please let me know, okay?
Thanks much,
PattyG
Posted by Elizabeth on November 1, 2001, at 14:35:11
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder Meds, posted by PattyG on November 1, 2001, at 8:53:55
> /////Perhaps in your case, they knew you had no insurance at all and so no attempt was made to collect? I just figured there was some sort of "process" that took place.
There was -- some sort of social services person came to my room the day after I got there, I filled out a form, and that was it.
> /////Yes, well in my son's case, I always knew that "something was wrong."
That's often the case, I think; that doesn't necessarily imply a "personality disorder." ADHD and social phobia, for example, are often lifelong disorders.
> I first spoke to a psychiatrist about him when he was 18 mos. old - very sad/solemn child. He has suffered from depression all of his life and the BPD "began" as Oppositional Defiant Conduct Disorder, which many professionals are now realizing can be the early onset of BPD.
"Oppositional defiant disorder" and "conduct disorder" are two different things; the latter is considered a precursor to antisocial personality disorder, not BPD (in fact, one of the diagnostic criteria for antisocial PD is that there must be evidence of conduct order in childhood).
> My experience has been that more often than not, many male Borderlines are incorrectly diagnosed as having Antisocial PD.
I don't know if we can really say which diagnosis is the "right" one. BPD is certainly trendier at present (there's a lot of research being done on it, and it's probably overdiagnosed in general), but it's diagnosed mostly in women. Some experts think that antisocial and borderline PDs are manifestations of the same underlying problem in males and females, respectively.
> Thanks for the info - if you think of any more particulars regarding the hospital bill situation, please let me know, okay?
I don't know what the exact qualifications are for this type of assistance, and it probably varies from state to state. I imagine that the qualifications have to do with your income and whether you have any sort of insurance.
HTH
-elizabeth
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