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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by MB on September 10, 2001, at 12:15:03
OK, I've heard a couple of people on this board discuss taking Valerian to help ease benzo tapering. I'm not taking benzos. In fact I've been off meds for 8 months. I've been trying to do it med free with therapy (psychoanalysis). I'm also in AA recovery and trying to work through "issues." My sponser is against meds and I feel guilty like I'm a bad person when I discuss the possible need for them. I think he's a moron because he tells me coffee isn't a problem. When I drink it, I see blue flashes of light and think there is an evil inside of me and immanent in all things (the shadows of the room are all wrong and macabre--just wrong like in a nightmare). I feel the evil is defiling all the innocence in the world and I want to vomit at the suffering, and I feel it all inside of me and that's it's my fault and some horrible punishment for the suffering of the whole world is falling upon me. It's less of a delusion than just a feeling of consumate evil inside of me and in everything around me. If I were a Christian man, I'd say that Satan had come to take me for murdering the world. But objectively, I know I've done nothing wrong, but my heart pounds and the room distorts further and I think I'm gonna lose my F***ing mind. This is when I drink coffee but no, he says *THAT'S* not a problem, and he's reluctant to help me quit, saying that it's not really the problem, that I'm not giving my character defects to God. Coffee's FIIIIIIIIINE, but taking psychiatric medication *ISN*T? He even mentioned I might be making this up unconsciously so I could get drugs and not work through my character defects. He's a coffee addict and a redneck philistine. Anyway, so I can't take the anxiety and rage and periods of depression where cutting myself seems the only option (I'm not cutting myself, but it's an obsession, and I know it works and I'm reserving it for last) so I've been taking valerian...a lot of it, actually. It's the extract plus the herb: 110 mg of .8% valerenic acids plus 400 mg of the herb. It seems to take the edge off. I take 20 capsuls a day. I see a cardiologist soon because I've been having tachycardia sometimes...other times a weird slowing of the heart accompanied by seeming pressure in my head and neck, painful explosive pressure. The valerian seems to stabalize the fear, the sense of immanent evil and the heart problems. But last night I had this weird feeling like God was inside of me and inherent in all things and the bliss was unreal, and it was so un-manic because I was so peaceful and calm, and I held a pair of socks and laughed for thirty minutes because it felt like I was finally awake (my true Self) and I could see that I held God in my hands. Now this morning, that feeling is gone and the rage and pounding heart and fear and loathing is back and I want to kill my sponsor now more than ever (and to all the FBI agents out there: I mean that figuratively, I'm not a murderer). Is the valerian making things worse? I feel like I'm falling apart. Most likely in a few days I'll be fine. I hope I become the Buddha again, that was cool.
Posted by kid47 on September 10, 2001, at 15:44:17
In reply to Valerian Safety, posted by MB on September 10, 2001, at 12:15:03
Hi. Congratulations on your involment In AA & your recovery. I have known some AA folks who do seem to be very closed minded on the topic of psychmeds. My standard answer would be " if you were a diabetic & your body needed insulin because of a chemical imbalance you would most likely take it". The same can be said for mood disorders. You were probably self medicating for a long while before AA. Now you have the opportunity to take a prescription medication, but unlike the Alcohol/drugs you were using to self medicate,
it could very well improve the quality of your life. You said you had been on meds before. Did they help?
I too took Valerian Root & found it to be a great sleep aid, but after a whle it really seemed to exacerbate my depression. I would exercise caution using it. Sounds to me like you are having some mood cycling maybe with some psychotic features. Untreated or undertreated depression & or anxiety can cause a pyschotic type episode. There are AD's & mood stabilizers etc. available to successfully treat your problems. Please don't let the guilt-trip approach of your AA sponsor disuade you from seeking pharmacological help for your ilness. Mental illness is NOT a character defect anymore than cancer or arthritis. Find a good pdoc & the correct meds for you & start feeling better. Good luck Take care
kidPS-I pretty much had to give up caffeine. It really made me anxious.
> OK, I've heard a couple of people on this board discuss taking Valerian to help ease benzo tapering. I'm not taking benzos. In fact I've been off meds for 8 months. I've been trying to do it med free with therapy (psychoanalysis). I'm also in AA recovery and trying to work through "issues." My sponser is against meds and I feel guilty like I'm a bad person when I discuss the possible need for them. I think he's a moron because he tells me coffee isn't a problem. When I drink it, I see blue flashes of light and think there is an evil inside of me and immanent in all things (the shadows of the room are all wrong and macabre--just wrong like in a nightmare). I feel the evil is defiling all the innocence in the world and I want to vomit at the suffering, and I feel it all inside of me and that's it's my fault and some horrible punishment for the suffering of the whole world is falling upon me. It's less of a delusion than just a feeling of consumate evil inside of me and in everything around me. If I were a Christian man, I'd say that Satan had come to take me for murdering the world. But objectively, I know I've done nothing wrong, but my heart pounds and the room distorts further and I think I'm gonna lose my F***ing mind. This is when I drink coffee but no, he says *THAT'S* not a problem, and he's reluctant to help me quit, saying that it's not really the problem, that I'm not giving my character defects to God. Coffee's FIIIIIIIIINE, but taking psychiatric medication *ISN*T? He even mentioned I might be making this up unconsciously so I could get drugs and not work through my character defects. He's a coffee addict and a redneck philistine. Anyway, so I can't take the anxiety and rage and periods of depression where cutting myself seems the only option (I'm not cutting myself, but it's an obsession, and I know it works and I'm reserving it for last) so I've been taking valerian...a lot of it, actually. It's the extract plus the herb: 110 mg of .8% valerenic acids plus 400 mg of the herb. It seems to take the edge off. I take 20 capsuls a day. I see a cardiologist soon because I've been having tachycardia sometimes...other times a weird slowing of the heart accompanied by seeming pressure in my head and neck, painful explosive pressure. The valerian seems to stabalize the fear, the sense of immanent evil and the heart problems. But last night I had this weird feeling like God was inside of me and inherent in all things and the bliss was unreal, and it was so un-manic because I was so peaceful and calm, and I held a pair of socks and laughed for thirty minutes because it felt like I was finally awake (my true Self) and I could see that I held God in my hands. Now this morning, that feeling is gone and the rage and pounding heart and fear and loathing is back and I want to kill my sponsor now more than ever (and to all the FBI agents out there: I mean that figuratively, I'm not a murderer). Is the valerian making things worse? I feel like I'm falling apart. Most likely in a few days I'll be fine. I hope I become the Buddha again, that was cool.
Posted by MB on September 10, 2001, at 21:54:38
In reply to Re: Valerian Safety » MB, posted by kid47 on September 10, 2001, at 15:44:17
Hey, thanks for the encouraging words. I've taken SSRIs before with limited success, they make my anxiety and racing thoughts too much handle. Then they just kinda poop out and don't do much other than make me tired all the time. I think they're the wrong type of medicine for me. The valerian takes the edge off of the panic and anxiety, but it seems to be losing its effectiveness and giving me a headache and stomach ache. I think that the extreme anxiety is driving me nuts ("psychotic episode," I think, is the proper term). It just gets more and more intense to the point that I can't take it. My thoughts get weird. I mean the panic gets so bad and the guilt gets so overwhelming, everything *feels* evil...then I snap and freak out and think there really *is* something evil in the house with me. Then there's the unexpected periods of bliss that, when I'm having them, I can only explain as being some type of spiritual experience. I don't think having a buddha-like awakening is psychotic, but I think it takes a life time of meditation. When I'm suicidal and panicking one minute, and then feeling blissed out and one with the universe the next minute, I think that needs to be chalked up to a brain problem. I read some of the stuff I wrote over the past few days and it's pretty scary. I'm scared to tell a doc because I don't want to be put on a neuroleptic (the times I've tried them to augment ADs, they've knocked me out cold and left me feeling like crud). I hope something like what I'm experiencing could be helped with a mood stabalizer. Anyway, I've been calling p-docs and haven't been getting call-backs. Phoey!
Anyway, probably time to cut out the valerian.
Did you give up caffeine cold-turkey? The depression is too much when I try that. Today I've had two cups of green tea instead of coffee. The first one sent me into a crazy mixed state type experience, but the second one didn't seem to. I don't know. I just hope I can get to see a doctor before I become irrevokably psychotic or before I pick up alcohol again! Schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and alcoholism all run in my family. Wouldn't that be lame if i had all three? Sheesh. Well, I think the fact that I'm having moments of clarity might be a good sign...i dunno...
> Hi. Congratulations on your involment In AA & your recovery. I have known some AA folks who do seem to be very closed minded on the topic of psychmeds. My standard answer would be " if you were a diabetic & your body needed insulin because of a chemical imbalance you would most likely take it". The same can be said for mood disorders. You were probably self medicating for a long while before AA. Now you have the opportunity to take a prescription medication, but unlike the Alcohol/drugs you were using to self medicate,
> it could very well improve the quality of your life. You said you had been on meds before. Did they help?
> I too took Valerian Root & found it to be a great sleep aid, but after a whle it really seemed to exacerbate my depression. I would exercise caution using it. Sounds to me like you are having some mood cycling maybe with some psychotic features. Untreated or undertreated depression & or anxiety can cause a pyschotic type episode. There are AD's & mood stabilizers etc. available to successfully treat your problems. Please don't let the guilt-trip approach of your AA sponsor disuade you from seeking pharmacological help for your ilness. Mental illness is NOT a character defect anymore than cancer or arthritis. Find a good pdoc & the correct meds for you & start feeling better. Good luck Take care
> kid
>
> PS-I pretty much had to give up caffeine. It really made me anxious.
Posted by KB on September 11, 2001, at 7:12:20
In reply to Re: Valerian Safety » kid47, posted by MB on September 10, 2001, at 21:54:38
I took Valerian for quite a while and it did help me feel less stressed out and sleep better. It's pretty safe, but you can develop a tolerance, so, if possible, it's best to take an occasional break from it (a week or so).
BUT Valerian is definitely not an anti-psychotic,
so I think you should get yourself to a PDOC ASAP, even if it means just turning up at the ER
(if there's a psych ER near you, that's your best bet).
Posted by Simcha on September 11, 2001, at 7:54:23
In reply to Valerian Safety, posted by MB on September 10, 2001, at 12:15:03
MB,
Please listen to yourself and your doctor. If you both determine that meds are for you then please do yourself a favor, don't resist.
I've been in 12-step groups for six years now and I fought getting meds. Finally the depression smacked me hard enough that I was willing to try anything. My therapist AND my doctors had tried to tell me that I needed meds for years. Of course, my sponsor knew better and I needed 12-step to save me from addiction, right?
Well, let me tell ya. I've learned that addiction and mental illness may be 2 sides of the same coin yet both require seperate treatment. For my mental illness is a medical problem. There is a medical solution these days, thank G-d, in the form of medication to balance my brain.
You may wish to read this book:
"I Can See Tomorrow"
by
Patricia Owen (Hazelden)It is written for those of us who are in 12-step recovery who are suffering from depression. It helped me to see why I might need medication to balance me out.
I'm also learning that some of the indoctrination that I received in 12-step has held me back. I'm not the fragile "powerless" person that I was when I went in. I am powerful. I may not be able to use my substance of choice without dire consequences. Over that I remain powerless. Yet powerlessness is not an excuse to allow myself to not take charge of the rest of my life. I have a great hypnotherapist who is helping me to empower myself.
The 12-steps are necessary for me to get through my addiction and into recovery. Unfortunately the 12-steps are not the solution to all my problems. It's taken me six years in recovery and plenty of sobriety to realize this. Just remember, "Take what you like and leave the rest." That goes double for your sponsor's prejudice against medication that will help you to balance a chemical imbalance in the brain.
Peace and Serenity,
Simcha. ;-)
Posted by MB on September 11, 2001, at 10:35:07
In reply to Re: Valerian Safety -- 12-Step Resources!!! » MB, posted by Simcha on September 11, 2001, at 7:54:23
It bothers me too that AA takes the powerless idea and extends it to all aspects of life, not just drugs and alcohol. The AA groups tell us that we are *responsible* for any negativity in our lives, but then turn around and tell us that we are *powerless* to do anything about it! What kind of head trip is that, you get all the responsibility but none of the power? Then you have to do all this HARD WORK in the form of the steps, but you can't take any credit for that work, you have to say that the higer power did *all* of it...well, personally, I think I've been working hard, and I'm proud of it!!! I agree that AA is for addiction, that we are powerless over our addictions, but then we need to take charge over our lives (staying in contact with a higher power is important too, however). I hate to say it, but I think that in some ways I'm more screwed up than before I came to AA. I'm no longer drinking, but I'm neurotic in ways I wasn't before. I was hanging around with some normies and they were complementing me, and I found that I have lost the ability to say anything nice about myself without the horrible guilt. I always have to "humble" myself by following a self-complement with a self-deprecating comment (e.g., I'd say something like: "Yes I am a good guitar player, but that *is* just like an alcoholic to be so arrogant, isn't it?"). At a meeting I noticed that most of the people speaking did the same thing: it's *trendy* to put yourself down in the AA groups.
I'm going to read that book you suggested (even though I'll be chastised since it isn't "conference approved").
Anyway, I need to get on medication before it gets worse. AA saved my life because I was drinking myself to death, but at the same time, it seems AA likes to blame *any* and *all* of life's problems on alcoholism and bad stepwork. I just don't think I agree...and to be in disagreement with the group is a very difficult and scary place to be...as I'm sure you're aware of. I get really paranoid some times (thinking phones are tapped, etc.) and some times I think I'm in an evil cult that's trying to take my individuality away. AA has done me so much good in terms of my dringking, I wish it didn't have to be the way that it is.
> MB,
>
> Please listen to yourself and your doctor. If you both determine that meds are for you then please do yourself a favor, don't resist.
>
> I've been in 12-step groups for six years now and I fought getting meds. Finally the depression smacked me hard enough that I was willing to try anything. My therapist AND my doctors had tried to tell me that I needed meds for years. Of course, my sponsor knew better and I needed 12-step to save me from addiction, right?
>
> Well, let me tell ya. I've learned that addiction and mental illness may be 2 sides of the same coin yet both require seperate treatment. For my mental illness is a medical problem. There is a medical solution these days, thank G-d, in the form of medication to balance my brain.
>
> You may wish to read this book:
>
> "I Can See Tomorrow"
> by
> Patricia Owen (Hazelden)
>
> It is written for those of us who are in 12-step recovery who are suffering from depression. It helped me to see why I might need medication to balance me out.
>
> I'm also learning that some of the indoctrination that I received in 12-step has held me back. I'm not the fragile "powerless" person that I was when I went in. I am powerful. I may not be able to use my substance of choice without dire consequences. Over that I remain powerless. Yet powerlessness is not an excuse to allow myself to not take charge of the rest of my life. I have a great hypnotherapist who is helping me to empower myself.
>
> The 12-steps are necessary for me to get through my addiction and into recovery. Unfortunately the 12-steps are not the solution to all my problems. It's taken me six years in recovery and plenty of sobriety to realize this. Just remember, "Take what you like and leave the rest." That goes double for your sponsor's prejudice against medication that will help you to balance a chemical imbalance in the brain.
>
> Peace and Serenity,
> Simcha. ;-)
Posted by Simcha on September 13, 2001, at 8:15:32
In reply to Re: Valerian Safety -- 12-Step Resources!!! » Simcha, posted by MB on September 11, 2001, at 10:35:07
> It bothers me too that AA takes the powerless idea and extends it to all aspects of life, not just drugs and alcohol. The AA groups tell us that we are *responsible* for any negativity in our lives, but then turn around and tell us that we are *powerless* to do anything about it! What kind of head trip is that, you get all the responsibility but none of the power? Then you have to do all this HARD WORK in the form of the steps, but you can't take any credit for that work, you have to say that the higer power did *all* of it...well, personally, I think I've been working hard, and I'm proud of it!!! I agree that AA is for addiction, that we are powerless over our addictions, but then we need to take charge over our lives (staying in contact with a higher power is important too, however). I hate to say it, but I think that in some ways I'm more screwed up than before I came to AA. I'm no longer drinking, but I'm neurotic in ways I wasn't before. I was hanging around with some normies and they were complementing me, and I found that I have lost the ability to say anything nice about myself without the horrible guilt. I always have to "humble" myself by following a self-complement with a self-deprecating comment (e.g., I'd say something like: "Yes I am a good guitar player, but that *is* just like an alcoholic to be so arrogant, isn't it?"). At a meeting I noticed that most of the people speaking did the same thing: it's *trendy* to put yourself down in the AA groups.
I hear you MB! I refuse to put myself down anymore. My therapist has me saying simply, "Thank you." when someone complements me. I do not need to praise or condemn myself. I can simply accept the praise of another human being and enjoy it!
> I'm going to read that book you suggested (even though I'll be chastised since it isn't "conference approved").
LOL! I hear you... You do not need to tell anyone in your group that you are reading it. I find that some things are my own business. Also this book is by Hazelden, a well respected treatment center that uses AA.
> Anyway, I need to get on medication before it gets worse. AA saved my life because I was drinking myself to death, but at the same time, it seems AA likes to blame *any* and *all* of life's problems on alcoholism and bad stepwork. I just don't think I agree...and to be in disagreement with the group is a very difficult and scary place to be...as I'm sure you're aware of. I get really paranoid some times (thinking phones are tapped, etc.) and some times I think I'm in an evil cult that's trying to take my individuality away. AA has done me so much good in terms of my dringking, I wish it didn't have to be the way that it is.
The meds have helped me greatly.Also, you may want to share with your doctor that you believe that your phones are being tapped. This may be part of what you might need treatment for. I cannot make that determination since I am no doctor. It's just a thought.
Also, AA is not an evil cult. I try to remember the saying, "Take what you like and leave the rest." If I am not getting what I need from a sponsor or a meeting I'll get a new sponsor and go to different meetings. Also I do not follow 12-step blindly. That is not called for, if you really read the Big Book. We are supposed to take the 12-steps and apply them to our lives. We are not supposed to follow them blindly. We are supposed to listen to a Higher Power who can speak from within and we can learn to think for ourselves. That is the whole point of recovery for me. It is the ability to recover sanity so that I can make decisions on how to take care of myself. Of course I take advantage of the support of the group. I do not follow the group blindly like a vole leaping to its death in a herd of other voles.
Take Care,
Simcha
Posted by MB on September 15, 2001, at 16:02:36
In reply to Re: Valerian Safety -- 12-Step Resources!!! » MB, posted by Simcha on September 13, 2001, at 8:15:32
> I hear you MB! I refuse to put myself down anymore. My therapist has me saying simply, "Thank you." when someone complements me. I do not need to praise or condemn myself. I can simply accept the praise of another human being and enjoy it!
Yeah, my therapist has been helping me see what types of behaviors are helping get healthy and stay sober--and which ones are damaging to me psychologically. Putting myself down (or others, for that matter) doesn't help me get better.
> > I'm going to read that book you suggested (even though I'll be chastised since it isn't "conference approved").
>
>
> LOL! I hear you... You do not need to tell anyone in your group that you are reading it. I find that some things are my own business. Also this book is by Hazelden, a well respected treatment center that uses AA.
That's true. I read lots of books that don't even have anything to do with recovery...and I don't share that in meetings...there's no reason I'd have to talk about the Hazelton book or about taking psychiatric medications.
> > Anyway, I need to get on medication before it gets worse. AA saved my life because I was drinking myself to death, but at the same time, it seems AA likes to blame *any* and *all* of life's problems on alcoholism and bad stepwork. I just don't think I agree...and to be in disagreement with the group is a very difficult and scary place to be...as I'm sure you're aware of. I get really paranoid some times (thinking phones are tapped, etc.) and some times I think I'm in an evil cult that's trying to take my individuality away. AA has done me so much good in terms of my dringking, I wish it didn't have to be the way that it is.
>
>
> The meds have helped me greatly.
>
> Also, you may want to share with your doctor that you believe that your phones are being tapped. This may be part of what you might need treatment for. I cannot make that determination since I am no doctor. It's just a thought.
Boy, reading my past posts, I can see I was in a very bad space. It's getting better...I feel calmer and more coherent. It cycles. right now I don't feel like I need medication at all (and that can be scary when you really do need it). I've cut my caffeine intake down to about 2 cups of green tea a day (from two double Americanos a day). The ups, downs, panic, and paranoia are infinitely better. I'm not saying that two cups of coffee were causing my illness, but I think they triggered something that would have otherwise remained latent.
> Also, AA is not an evil cult. I try to remember the saying, "Take what you like and leave the rest." If I am not getting what I need from a sponsor or a meeting I'll get a new sponsor and go to different meetings. Also I do not follow 12-step blindly. That is not called for, if you really read the Big Book. We are supposed to take the 12-steps and apply them to our lives. We are not supposed to follow them blindly. We are supposed to listen to a Higher Power who can speak from within and we can learn to think for ourselves. That is the whole point of recovery for me. It is the ability to recover sanity so that I can make decisions on how to take care of myself. Of course I take advantage of the support of the group. I do not follow the group blindly like a vole leaping to its death in a herd of other voles.
That's kind of what my therapist says...to try and remember what AA really is: a support group to help you not drink, and some tools to use to feel better without alcohol. You're not going to find answers to every single problem by using the steps...at least that's what he says and I agree with him (when I'm not following blindly out of fear).
This is the end of the thread.
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