![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 56. Go back in thread:
Posted by oop on October 16, 1998, at 23:06:17
In reply to Serzone and MDMA, posted by Nicole on October 16, 1998, at 22:54:44
> Hi, my name is Nicole and I'm 26. I just started taking serzone this month at 100mg.
> This December I was planning on going to Florida and taking MDMA.
> I am now concerned about the negative interaction between the two.
> Could you please tell me what the possible side-effects could be?
> Thank you
> Nicole
What is MDMA?
Posted by Anonymous on October 19, 1998, at 15:51:23
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by oop on October 16, 1998, at 23:06:17
> > Hi, my name is Nicole and I'm 26. I just started taking serzone this month at 100mg.
> > This December I was planning on going to Florida and taking MDMA.
> > I am now concerned about the negative interaction between the two.
> > Could you please tell me what the possible side-effects could be?
> > Thank you
> > Nicole
> What is MDMA?MDMA is MethyleneDioxyMethAmphetamine, a.k.a Ecstasy.
Posted by Toby on October 21, 1998, at 8:30:35
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by oop on October 16, 1998, at 23:06:17
MDMA has a neurotoxic effect on serotonin nerve cells, causing degeneration of serotonergic cell bodies and axons, decreases in the activity of enzymes involved in the biosynthesis of serotonin, and long-term depletions in serotonin, serotonin metabolites, and serotonin reuptake sites. A single dose of MDMA has been shown to affect central serotonin systems for several weeks and in some cases, neurochemical markers did not return to normal until 1 year after drug administration. It is not clear whether there was actual regeneration of neurons or only compensatory changes in the remaining undamaged neurons. Cells die as part of the aging process, and if exposure to MDMA kills or just weakens a certain proportion of cells, cell loss due to aging could be compounded, producing substantial impariment in the functioning of certain cell groups and/or neurochemical systems. Since serotonin systems have been implicated in the control or modulation of sleep, food intake, sexual behavior, anxiety, and mood, disruption due to cell loss could have major consequences. In other words, if you already have depression and anxiety and need an antidepressant, MDMA will make it worse and kill off the cells the antidepressant is supposed to be working on, making it useless.
Posted by Alex on December 1, 1998, at 19:28:19
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Toby on October 21, 1998, at 8:30:35
> MDMA has a neurotoxic effect on serotonin nerve cells, causing degeneration of serotonergic cell bodies and axons, decreases in the activity of enzymes involved in the biosynthesis of serotonin, and long-term depletions in serotonin, serotonin metabolites, and serotonin reuptake sites. A single dose of MDMA has been shown to affect central serotonin systems for several weeks and in some cases, neurochemical markers did not return to normal until 1 year after drug administration. It is not clear whether there was actual regeneration of neurons or only compensatory changes in the remaining undamaged neurons. Cells die as part of the aging process, and if exposure to MDMA kills or just weakens a certain proportion of cells, cell loss due to aging could be compounded, producing substantial impariment in the functioning of certain cell groups and/or neurochemical systems. Since serotonin systems have been implicated in the control or modulation of sleep, food intake, sexual behavior, anxiety, and mood, disruption due to cell loss could have major consequences. In other words, if you already have depression and anxiety and need an antidepressant, MDMA will make it worse and kill off the cells the antidepressant is supposed to be working on, making it useless.
Hallo,
All of that sounds nice and scary and it is supposed to "probably" happen in rats. Cite me the article stating that that "does" happen in humans. MDMA was even temporarily sceduled as a schedule III drug, then pumped up to schedule I out of the reasons you just mentioned. Contrary to your information, I can cite you some studies in which MDMA was studied, the test subjects being psychiatrists themselves, regarding interpersonal/social communication, depression, and the outcomes were rather positive. And if you ask a little bit around at Harvard Psychiatry, there are some leading people who demand that MDMA be re-scheduled. By the way, there are Neuroleptics out there, which are "proven" to have similar destructive effects on your circitory-systems.
Posted by Nancy on December 2, 1998, at 18:10:25
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Alex on December 1, 1998, at 19:28:19
> > MDMA has a neurotoxic effect on serotonin nerve cells, causing degeneration of serotonergic cell bodies and axons, decreases in the activity of enzymes involved in the biosynthesis of serotonin, and long-term depletions in serotonin, serotonin metabolites, and serotonin reuptake sites. A single dose of MDMA has been shown to affect central serotonin systems for several weeks and in some cases, neurochemical markers did not return to normal until 1 year after drug administration. It is not clear whether there was actual regeneration of neurons or only compensatory changes in the remaining undamaged neurons. Cells die as part of the aging process, and if exposure to MDMA kills or just weakens a certain proportion of cells, cell loss due to aging could be compounded, producing substantial impariment in the functioning of certain cell groups and/or neurochemical systems. Since serotonin systems have been implicated in the control or modulation of sleep, food intake, sexual behavior, anxiety, and mood, disruption due to cell loss could have major consequences. In other words, if you already have depression and anxiety and need an antidepressant, MDMA will make it worse and kill off the cells the antidepressant is supposed to be working on, making it useless.
> Hallo,
> All of that sounds nice and scary and it is supposed to "probably" happen in rats. Cite me the article stating that that "does" happen in humans. MDMA was even temporarily sceduled as a schedule III drug, then pumped up to schedule I out of the reasons you just mentioned. Contrary to your information, I can cite you some studies in which MDMA was studied, the test subjects being psychiatrists themselves, regarding interpersonal/social communication, depression, and the outcomes were rather positive. And if you ask a little bit around at Harvard Psychiatry, there are some leading people who demand that MDMA be re-scheduled. By the way, there are Neuroleptics out there, which are "proven" to have similar destructive effects on your circitory-systems.Hey, Alex. If you CAN cite the literature, then do it. Don't just talk about it.
Posted by MrZest on December 10, 1998, at 8:32:46
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Nancy on December 2, 1998, at 18:10:25
> Hey, Alex. If you CAN cite the literature, then do it. Don't just talk about it.
I'd like to see Alex and Toby BOTH citing long term bona fide studies.
While I tend to take the same jaundiced eye approach as Alex to 'scary' tactics thrown out about recreational drugs, I have to admit this has given me cause to pause and think.
While I was only relatively recently diagnosed as bi polar type 2, it has over time become clear that I have in fact been since my teens. I was also an enthusiastic user of recreational drugs as a teen.
I used lsd, pot, coke and heroin (only once, and I didn't do so knowingly. I smoked a joint that I didn't know had been laced with both.), and several types of acid.
I have not used any sort of recreational drug since high school, and I had flashbacks up to 5 years afterward.
What makes me think here, is the fact that at that time in my life I NEVER had a 'bad' trip. I was also able to mask my disability for all those years up to a couple years ago. At about the same time I started to lapse into the major depression which ultimately drove me to ask for help, I tried pot once more. I had the WORST trip I could have imagined. I spent most of a day curled up on the back of my bed afraid I was going to die. (Naturaly, I haven't touched anything like that since. LOL)
I was on serzone myself for a short bit, as well. My experience with it was that within 4 days I developed an overwhelming tunnel vision. I felt as if I was on a fast shuttle ride downward into the muzzle of a gun. Everything around me literally seemed to be getting darker, and more tunnel like as time went on. I was moved to welbutrin and stayed with that until it lost it's effectiveness to a large extent. I am now on remeron. Already up to 45 mg.
My postulation is this.... Is it possible that if I had not taken those drugs as a teen, would I have never come to the point I have now ? Or, if I had not totally escaped the chemical imbalance, is it possible that I would have been able to continue to deal with it the rest of my life as well as I was able to for the first 3 and a half decades of my life ??? Plus, by the same token, is it possible that the early drug abuse may have something to do with my current tendency to treatment resistance ?
This is number one, (at least circumstantialy), a pretty strong arguement, even if it is only a possibilty, against the use of recreational drugs at any age. And B. Something I will be taking up with my psyhiatrist soon.
Posted by Toby on December 10, 1998, at 16:01:48
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by MrZest on December 10, 1998, at 8:32:46
My original answer to Nicole was to provide information that she asked for so she could make an informed decision. I try not to use scare tactics unless I preface them with "my opinion." Alex asked for some references in non-rats. Here are a few of the 157 articles I found.
Frederick DL, Annals of the NY Academy of Science, May 30 1998, Vol 844, p 183-90. Showed 50% decrease in serotonin in frontal cortex and hippocampus (memory area) of rhesus monkeys 6 months after being given MDMA for only 4 days at doses comparable to human use.
Scheffel U; Synapse, June 1998, Vol 29:2, p183-92. In baboons, PET scans 13 months after being given MDMA for only 4 days, showed decreased serotonin activity and fewer serotonin transporters. This was confirmed on autopsy of the animal. This indicates that PET scans may be useful in diagnosing MDMA damage in humans.
Parrott AC; Journal of Psychopharmacology, 1998, Vol 12:1m p 79-83. Tested cognitive performance in regular users (have used 10 times or more), novice users (1-9 uses) and a control group (have never used). Tests done were done on a drug free day. Reaction time was similar in all groups, but immediate and delayed recall was decreased in both MDMA groups.
Simantov R; FASER Journal, Feb 1997, Vol 11:2, p 141-6. Showed MDMA killed human serotonin cells, changed the cell cycle, arrested cell development and caused DNA fragmentation. MDMA did not affect non-serotonin cells.
Curran HV; Addiction; July 1997, Vol 92:7, p 821-31. Compared MDMA with Alcohol. Participants consumed either MDMA or alcohol on Day 1 then remained abstinent. Mood and cognitive tests were given on Day 1, 2 and 5. On day 1 MDMA and alcohol users had elevated mood. On day 5, MDMA users had significantly lower mood with some users scoring in the clinically depressed range. Alcohol users felt worst on day 2 with gradually improved mood by day 5. MDMA users also scored worse on cognitive and memory tests than alcohol users throughout the study. The conclusions were that weekend use of MDMA may result in midweek depressions.
To Mr Zest: There is a theory of "kindling" that says that genetically vulnerable people may have their mental illness "triggered" by particular substances and these may also perpetuate, worsen, and speed up the course of mental illness as well as lead to resistance (due to depletion of certain neurotransmitters and death of brain cells that interact with the various neurotransmitters so that the medications have essentially nothing to work on).
Posted by Alex on December 11, 1998, at 20:00:03
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Toby on December 10, 1998, at 16:01:48
> My original answer to Nicole was to provide information that she asked for so she could make an informed decision. I try not to use scare tactics unless I preface them with "my opinion." Alex asked for some references in non-rats. Here are a few of the 157 articles I found.
> Frederick DL, Annals of the NY Academy of Science, May 30 1998, Vol 844, p 183-90. Showed 50% decrease in serotonin in frontal cortex and hippocampus (memory area) of rhesus monkeys 6 months after being given MDMA for only 4 days at doses comparable to human use.
> Scheffel U; Synapse, June 1998, Vol 29:2, p183-92. In baboons, PET scans 13 months after being given MDMA for only 4 days, showed decreased serotonin activity and fewer serotonin transporters. This was confirmed on autopsy of the animal. This indicates that PET scans may be useful in diagnosing MDMA damage in humans.
> Parrott AC; Journal of Psychopharmacology, 1998, Vol 12:1m p 79-83. Tested cognitive performance in regular users (have used 10 times or more), novice users (1-9 uses) and a control group (have never used). Tests done were done on a drug free day. Reaction time was similar in all groups, but immediate and delayed recall was decreased in both MDMA groups.
> Simantov R; FASER Journal, Feb 1997, Vol 11:2, p 141-6. Showed MDMA killed human serotonin cells, changed the cell cycle, arrested cell development and caused DNA fragmentation. MDMA did not affect non-serotonin cells.
> Curran HV; Addiction; July 1997, Vol 92:7, p 821-31. Compared MDMA with Alcohol. Participants consumed either MDMA or alcohol on Day 1 then remained abstinent. Mood and cognitive tests were given on Day 1, 2 and 5. On day 1 MDMA and alcohol users had elevated mood. On day 5, MDMA users had significantly lower mood with some users scoring in the clinically depressed range. Alcohol users felt worst on day 2 with gradually improved mood by day 5. MDMA users also scored worse on cognitive and memory tests than alcohol users throughout the study. The conclusions were that weekend use of MDMA may result in midweek depressions.
> To Mr Zest: There is a theory of "kindling" that says that genetically vulnerable people may have their mental illness "triggered" by particular substances and these may also perpetuate, worsen, and speed up the course of mental illness as well as lead to resistance (due to depletion of certain neurotransmitters and death of brain cells that interact with the various neurotransmitters so that the medications have essentially nothing to work on).Ok, ok, ok,
The last time I really checked into that was good 3-4 years ago, and what you cite looks pretty new and interesting. Maybe I should have gotten an update on that before shouting out where everybody can hear me. I surely will be more careful in the future. I also want to stress that my response was not meant to be understood as an "it is anyway all crap what they say, so lets go for it...", but a response to, at least to what I then considered it to, the usual kind of propaganda they try to sell you nowdays (in the US) with regards to drugs - rather provocative than preventative. Drugs of abuse surely have ruined, as they continue to do so at this very moment, many peoples life's, slowly and with a lot of suffering. Lifes they were able to live in peace before they "tried" it. Keeping in mind that the will to survive and "self-preservation" are our most basic instincts, one should be able to imagine in what terrible of a condition one has to be to act terminally self destructive, and that while being aware of it. To most of us that doesn't happen of course, so why should it happen to me. I am sure that is what everyone thinks/thought. And when it then comes down to the new designer stuff, an additional thing I would keep in mind before I would "try" is that I don't even know what it actually is, nor what what could happen besides the expected, eg. getting Parkinson's Disease with twenty-five, as it happened to the unfortunate ones who thought they'd be buying china white (heroin), or whatever. The b.s started here with a dealer who sold Fentalyl, that was at least what he thought he had cooked, but it turned out to be MPTP, which nobody knew.
These are just two more points, in addition to the neuro-toxitity one , to be aware of when taking a pill from just anybody, something even the normal consumer (not drug related) is being made aware of on a daily basis. "Do not take if seal is broken".
Posted by Nancy on December 13, 1998, at 15:28:37
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by MrZest on December 10, 1998, at 8:32:46
> While I was only relatively recently diagnosed as bi polar type 2, it has over time become clear that I have in fact been since my teens.
I've managed to stay alive for 32years, now. Although, I believe I've had manic-depression, since childhood. I think, since the age of six, which was my first suicide ideation and my first steps ever in planning the act. I've also had a couple of bad bipolar episodes that knocked me out of the mainstream for a year or two. As I am, now, I was also treatment resistive during those episodes.
However, not every severe episode has left me incapacitated. I've been manic and had no need for sleep for months at a time. During these periods and when not debilitated, I was very productive and creative. From personal experience, I postulate that the bipolar illness may be one of the components of certain people's high achievement orientation. I often wonder about others' experiences in that arena.> My postulation is this.... Is it possible that if I had not taken those drugs as a teen, would I have never come to the point I have now ? Or, if I had not totally escaped the chemical imbalance, is it possible that I would have been able to continue to deal with it the rest of my life as well as I was able to for the first 3 and a half decades of my life ??? Plus, by the same token, is it possible that the early drug abuse may have something to do with my current tendency to treatment resistance ?
>I'll not raise an argument against the idea that drug use may be a factor in exacerbating bipolar disease. However, from personal experience with my life-long treatment resistance, I can say that recreational drug use has not been an influencing factor. In other words, these instances of bipolar 1 disorder with ultra-rapid cycling, mixed states and psychotic features was neither due to nor exacerbated by recreational drug use.
Furthermore, the severe debilitating periods of my treatment refractory bipolar 1 disorder have a "mind of their own". They come and take over my life against my free will. They leave me of their own accord. No medication has ever had domain over them.
But, that is my experience. It is unfortunate, for me, that I don't hear of similar experiences from other people. I imagine it is because, this type of disease has a high mortality rate. In my own mind, I'd say that is true with exceptionally good reason.
Mind Over Madness,
Nancy
Anyone with treatment refractive experience and is still alive, please, email.
Posted by obilot on December 13, 1998, at 19:12:26
In reply to Serzone and MDMA, posted by Nicole on October 16, 1998, at 22:54:44
> Hi, my name is Nicole and I'm 26. I just started taking serzone this month at 100mg.
> This December I was planning on going to Florida and taking MDMA.
> I am now concerned about the negative interaction between the two.
> Could you please tell me what the possible side-effects could be?
> Thank you
> Nicole
for the most comprehensive info., contact the Multidiciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, www.maps.org. they will have a fairly positive spin on controlled use with some people.
"e" has led to a seemingly permanent improvement in social problems such as alienation & social phobia in some "normal" people, after one or several doses. i'd sacrifice a few brain cells for that, as it's a large part of my mood disorder, but i don't know if it's been studied in the not-so-"normal". maps has extensive archives of studies done before the crackdown. it is a risk, but so are the sanctioned drugs, the most of the brain damage ocurred in those taking it over 60 times. however, if you have fears, you should probably heed them, & make a more informed decision when you're ready.
Posted by Elizabeth on December 13, 1998, at 20:02:17
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by obilot on December 13, 1998, at 19:12:26
MAPS does have a lot of info on this, yeah.
Anecdotally, I do know that a number of people get depressed after taking Ecstasy.
SSRIs (and probably Serzone as well) may provide some protection against post-MDMA depression.
In regard to kindling: I think this is plausible; however, one can't assume that because many people with mental illness have used drugs, the drugs must have caused the illness. My impression is that a lot of drug abuse among mentally ill persons is an attempt to self-medicate.
Posted by racer on December 26, 1998, at 20:42:03
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA by Mr Zest, posted by Nancy on December 13, 1998, at 15:28:37
Sorry, can't email directly - that's closer than I can be right now.
But I will say this to your manic experiences: if you look closely at the "great" artists of the western world, many of them have been bi-polar. And many of those who were not had close relatives who were.
My favorite story is William Cowper. He was a poet of the late eighteenth century (Mr Dalloway used to recite one of his poems in the book...). He was locked up for madness: he thought the Devil was talking to him. Then he told the doctors that God was talking to him. They declared him cured and sent him home. Sound kinda like a really simple explanation of bipolar? In 1936, the kennedy professor of latin at Oxford gave a lecture on poetry in which he said that madness was conducive to creativity. He claimed that the 18th century had produced only four true poets: Cowper, Collins, Smart and Blake. Surprise, they had all been locked up for madness in their lives. (Don't get me started on why the lecture was wrong about "true" poetry! I could be here all week. Though, I would feel better at the end of it... I like the subject.) There is a lot of anecdotal evidence to say that there is an obverse side to the torment of bipolar disorder, and there is a lot of information on it available.
I hope that helps
Posted by saint james on December 28, 1998, at 7:20:06
In reply to Serzone and MDMA, posted by Nicole on October 16, 1998, at 22:54:44
> Hi, my name is Nicole and I'm 26. I just started taking serzone this month at 100mg.
> This December I was planning on going to Florida and taking MDMA.
> I am now concerned about the negative interaction between the two.
> Could you please tell me what the possible side-effects could be?
> Thank you
> Nicole
James here....Hmmm...I;ll come clean here...I had consederable expwerience with XTC and Meth for about 3 yrs. The drugs run your neurotransmitter system wide open..wide wide open. An AD works to order the neurotransmitter systems and speed (XTC, too) at doses of abuse work opsite this. XTC depletes your body of AD's. If you are already depressed and on an AD taking XTC will deplete you body of AD and can make your depression worse for the short term (definantly) and long term (varies person to person) Another real issue is that AD's tend to lower your convulsive threshold and when you take speed on top of an AD (and XTC is very much speed) you run a greater risk of having a seizure. ( I know personally about this !)
Yes Virgina...I have long term damage (mood) from taking meth and XTC...I only used for 3 yrs and I did do a LOT. Those that did not have pre-existing mood problems and did a little meth or XTC are OK 10 yrs out (I am speaking of my friends) Personally I feel for those of us who need meds to stabilize mood or thought need to stay away from speed unless perscribed...and then the dosages perscribed are going to be far far less than the dosages of abuse. 1 dose XTC definatly scrambles the brain far far more that 1 dose meth and I am in no way saying "go for the meth !"james
Posted by Nancy on December 29, 1998, at 16:45:58
In reply to Hey, Nancy, posted by racer on December 26, 1998, at 20:42:03
> But I will say this to your manic experiences: if you look closely at the "great" artists of the western world, many of them have been bi-polar. And many of those who were not had close relatives who were.
*Let's also mention, most of those bipolar writers/artists didn't live much passed 30years of age. Most died from drug overdose. "Give me anything to stop the pain," is our code. Why must we suffer so? My first psychopharmacologist dogmatically professed that there is a heavy price to pay for genius. He had me tested and the results were, as you can already deduce, astounding. I was well advanced acedemically and scored on the level of creative genius. He said that, genius comes with madness attatched to it. Oh, did I mention that I'm an accomplished violinist and pianist? Also, my chemistry degree was earned with great honors in the top 0.05 percentile nationally. Alas, I had become too ill to attend medical school. But, I did manage to pursue graduate studies in neurobiology[fascinating research grounded in Parkinsonianism]. Perhaps, if all does not go to hell, and I finally stablize well enough to function at daily tasks, then I will pursue my doctorate of Neurochemistry.
> My favorite story is William Cowper. He was a poet of the late eighteenth century. He was locked up for madness: he thought the Devil was talking to him. Then he told the doctors that God was talking to him. They declared him cured and sent him home. Sound kinda like a really simple explanation of bipolar? In 1936, the kennedy professor of latin at Oxford gave a lecture on poetry in which he said that madness was conducive to creativity. He claimed that the 18th century had produced only four true poets: Cowper, Collins, Smart and Blake. Surprise, they had all been locked up for madness in their lives. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence to say that there is an obverse side to the torment of bipolar disorder, and there is a lot of information on it available.
> I hope that helps*I've taken down the poets' names that you so graciously supplied. Like you, I can't seem to get enough to read! Finally, I'd rather read about someone else's horror stories related to psychiatric hospitals, than remember my own experiences! Ugh!!!
*Thank you ever so much for taking the time to help me. Please, feel free to drop me an e-mail if you need someone to share with.
Your Mad Scientist,
Nancy
Posted by neuroblast on February 2, 2000, at 17:50:48
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Toby on October 21, 1998, at 8:30:35
It's funny watching know-it-alls come up with their own theories made up of a mishmash of media lies, "personal experience," and short term studies that are inconclusive. Scientists are only scratching the surface of the neurochemistry of MDMA in the human brain. MDMA does cause pruning of seratonin axons and fine serotonergic arborizations, 5HT and 5HT2 receptors, failure of 5HT synthesizing enzymes, as well as depletion of the brain's store of seratonin up to 80%throughout the human brain, not simply in localized areas. Areas of profound damage include the prefrontal cortex, frontal cortex, hippocampus, and the medial and dorsal raphe nuclei to name a few. It does not kill the cell bodies, and serotonergic pathways and functions are restored to normal function after 4-12 months. The significance of this is that your memory and ability to think may be impaired after taking multiple doses of MDMA; the damage is temporary. As far as Serzone is concerned, it blocks the reuptake of seratonin as well as being a 5HT receptor agonist. Being a receptor agonist, this will heighten the effects of MDMA. Instead of Serzone, 1 hour after ingesting MDMA, an SSRI such as prozac, paxil or zoloft should be taken to protect against neurotoxic effects. As far as MDMA is concerned, I recommend taking it. It's fantastic, and will make you forget what depression feels like for 5 hours. Don't do it regularly, and ALWAYS take an SSRI with it, because it will save your brain. If you somehow can get a hold of a dopamine and seratonin SRI, which I believe Effexor is, this would be better than an SSRI as dopamine oxidation has been implicated in MDMA's neurotoxic effects.
Posted by Kev on February 2, 2000, at 21:22:04
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by neuroblast on February 2, 2000, at 17:50:48
> It's funny watching know-it-alls come up with their own theories made up of a mishmash of media lies, "personal experience," and short term studies that are inconclusive. Scientists are only scratching the surface of the neurochemistry of MDMA in the human brain. MDMA does cause pruning of seratonin axons and fine serotonergic arborizations, 5HT and 5HT2 receptors, failure of 5HT synthesizing enzymes, as well as depletion of the brain's store of seratonin up to 80%throughout the human brain, not simply in localized areas. Areas of profound damage include the prefrontal cortex, frontal cortex, hippocampus, and the medial and dorsal raphe nuclei to name a few. It does not kill the cell bodies, and serotonergic pathways and functions are restored to normal function after 4-12 months. The significance of this is that your memory and ability to think may be impaired after taking multiple doses of MDMA; the damage is temporary. As far as Serzone is concerned, it blocks the reuptake of seratonin as well as being a 5HT receptor agonist. Being a receptor agonist, this will heighten the effects of MDMA. Instead of Serzone, 1 hour after ingesting MDMA, an SSRI such as prozac, paxil or zoloft should be taken to protect against neurotoxic effects. As far as MDMA is concerned, I recommend taking it. It's fantastic, and will make you forget what depression feels like for 5 hours. Don't do it regularly, and ALWAYS take an SSRI with it, because it will save your brain. If you somehow can get a hold of a dopamine and seratonin SRI, which I believe Effexor is, this would be better than an SSRI as dopamine oxidation has been implicated in MDMA's neurotoxic effects.
***A couple cans of Holsten Festbock and a good cigar will also make you forget what depression is like for a few hours.
-Kev
Posted by Bons on May 22, 2000, at 22:48:12
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Kev on February 2, 2000, at 21:22:04
> > It's funny watching know-it-alls come up with their own theories made up of a mishmash of media lies, "personal experience," and short term studies that are inconclusive. Scientists are only scratching the surface of the neurochemistry of MDMA in the human brain. MDMA does cause pruning of seratonin axons and fine serotonergic arborizations, 5HT and 5HT2 receptors, failure of 5HT synthesizing enzymes, as well as depletion of the brain's store of seratonin up to 80%throughout the human brain, not simply in localized areas. Areas of profound damage include the prefrontal cortex, frontal cortex, hippocampus, and the medial and dorsal raphe nuclei to name a few. It does not kill the cell bodies, and serotonergic pathways and functions are restored to normal function after 4-12 months. The significance of this is that your memory and ability to think may be impaired after taking multiple doses of MDMA; the damage is temporary. As far as Serzone is concerned, it blocks the reuptake of seratonin as well as being a 5HT receptor agonist. Being a receptor agonist, this will heighten the effects of MDMA. Instead of Serzone, 1 hour after ingesting MDMA, an SSRI such as prozac, paxil or zoloft should be taken to protect against neurotoxic effects. As far as MDMA is concerned, I recommend taking it. It's fantastic, and will make you forget what depression feels like for 5 hours. Don't do it regularly, and ALWAYS take an SSRI with it, because it will save your brain. If you somehow can get a hold of a dopamine and seratonin SRI, which I believe Effexor is, this would be better than an SSRI as dopamine oxidation has been implicated in MDMA's neurotoxic effects.
>From what I understand serzone is an SSRI and inhibits the effects of X, my advice if you really want to try it, lay off the serzone for a week, that is what my friends have done in the past. Apparently the X wont really work at all if you take it while taking serzone. I am not saying this is the best idea in the world, but if your set on trying X at least enjoy it.
Posted by St_Yossarian on May 23, 2000, at 18:31:46
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Bons on May 22, 2000, at 22:48:12
> From what I understand serzone is an SSRI and inhibits the effects of X, my advice if you really want to try it, lay off the serzone for a week, that is what my friends have done in the past. Apparently the X wont really work at all if you take it while taking serzone. I am not saying this is the best idea in the world, but if your set on trying X at least enjoy it.
I take 400 mg of Serzone a day. I've tried MDMA once. It was a wonderful experience with all the commonly-reported effects. But the following afternoon, I began to have excruciating hot and cold flashes all over my body. These lasted for about 24 hours. I don't know if this had anything to do with an interaction. The MDMA may have been impure, but my fellow-ravers who received theirs from the same source experienced no adverse effects. I've found nothing reported online remotely similar to my experience and would like some answers if anybody has them.
Posted by Noa on May 24, 2000, at 16:45:27
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by St_Yossarian on May 23, 2000, at 18:31:46
Just wanted to say I like your name. Now, was Yossarian the one who is neither dead nor alive? Or is he the main character? I forget--it has been years.
Posted by Dixon on August 24, 2000, at 11:34:58
In reply to Serzone and MDMA, posted by Nicole on October 16, 1998, at 22:54:44
I have a different angle to this question. I would never trust medication that I purchased "off the streets" Do you really know what you're getting?
Posted by stjames on August 24, 2000, at 12:05:46
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Dixon on August 24, 2000, at 11:34:58
> I have a different angle to this question. I would never trust medication that I purchased "off the streets" Do you really know what you're getting?
James here....
The Marquis reagent used in pill testing kits will
tell you if MDMA/MDA are present and if other things are present.james
Posted by Cam W. on August 24, 2000, at 18:38:10
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by stjames on August 24, 2000, at 12:05:46
James - I just read a cool article on MDMA and Celexa™ (citalopram). Celexa decreases the effects of Ecstacy by 60% but prolongs the half life to 5 hours from 3 hours. Low level buzz for longer. The paper extrapolated this to all SSRIs. - Cam
Posted by stjames on August 24, 2000, at 22:19:25
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Cam W. on August 24, 2000, at 18:38:10
> James - I just read a cool article on MDMA and Celexa™ (citalopram). Celexa decreases the effects of Ecstacy by 60%
but prolongs the half life to 5 hours from 3 hours. Low level buzz for longer. The paper extrapolated this to all SSRIs. - CamJames here....
AD's block the effects of XTC in many people, they did in me.
I did get the amphetamine effects but did not "roll" nor did
I get the warm empathic feelings. Hmmm.... very interesting, Cam.
Taking an SSRI w/XTC is touted as stoping any neurotoxic effect of XTC (but
there is little proof XTC is neurotoxic in any sig amount and this info comes from
animal studies) I am strongly aganist this as I think one is playing with fire.
This gives me more proof. If one were to take lots of X and Celexa™ I feel there would be
dangers due to the longer action. Things like overheating, which are neuro destructive.
If you have the title of this paper, send it on, please. I would like to pass it to
the MAPS list and watch the PhD's discuss it.james
Posted by Cam W. on August 24, 2000, at 23:17:47
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by stjames on August 24, 2000, at 22:19:25
> If you have the title of this paper, send it on, please. I would like to pass it to
> the MAPS list and watch the PhD's discuss it.
>>james
James - I'll do you one better. I'll take you to the journal:http://www.elsevier.nl/gej-ng/10/33/33/33/28/Show/Products/NPS/toc.htt
It's the 7th article from the top:
Matthias E, etal. Acute Psychological Effects of 3,4-Methylenedioxymethylamphetamine (MDMA, Ecstacy) are Attenuated by the Serotonin Uptake Inhibitor Citalopram, Neuropsychopharmacology, 22(5); May, 2000:504-512.
You can view it online or download it and print it.
While you are at it, check out:
http://www.elsevier.nl/gej-ng/10/33/33/33/28/Show/Products/NPS/toc.htt
It's the 5th article from the top:
Tuchtenhagen MD, et al. High Intensity Dependence of Auditory Evoked Dipole Source Activity in Abstinenct Ecstacy (MDMA) Users, Neuropsychopharmacology, 22(6): 608-617.
Have fun and give me the gist of the conversation these evoke - Cam
Posted by Cam W. on August 24, 2000, at 23:27:26
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Cam W. on August 24, 2000, at 23:17:47
> > If you have the title of this paper, send it on, please. I would like to pass it to
> > the MAPS list and watch the PhD's discuss it.
> >
>
> >james
>
>
> James - I'll do you one better. I'll take you to the journal:
>
http://www.elsevier.nl/gej-ng/10/33/33/33/28/show/Products/NPS/toc.htt
>
> It's the 7th article from the top:
>
> Matthias E, etal. Acute Psychological Effects of 3,4-Methylenedioxymethylamphetamine (MDMA, Ecstacy) are Attenuated by the Serotonin Uptake Inhibitor Citalopram, Neuropsychopharmacology, 22(5); May, 2000:504-512.
>
> You can view it online or download it and print it.
>
> While you are at it, check out:
>
http://www.elsevier.nl/gej-ng/10/33/33/33/28/show/Products/NPS/toc.htt
>
> It's the 5th article from the top:
>
> Tuchtenhagen MD, et al. High Intensity Dependence of Auditory Evoked Dipole Source Activity in Abstinenct Ecstacy (MDMA) Users, Neuropsychopharmacology, 22(6): 608-617.
>
> Have fun and give me the gist of the conversation these evoke - CamOkay, try it with small "s" in /show/ (sigh). I guess I ain't no Bill Gates. - Cam
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