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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by noa on September 4, 2000, at 13:03:52
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by cd on September 2, 2000, at 20:47:05
A major difference that is very important is that with prescription medications, the potency and volume is standardized and reliable. With street drugs, you never know what and how much and how strong.
Posted by Ryan P. on October 30, 2000, at 10:35:39
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Bons on May 22, 2000, at 22:48:12
> From what I understand serzone is an SSRI and inhibits the effects of X, my advice if you really want to try it, lay off the serzone for a week, that is what my friends have done in the past. Apparently the X wont really work at all if you take it while taking serzone. I am not saying this is the best idea in the world, but if your set on trying X at least enjoy it.
I would have to agree. I'm 22 years old, and I started taking X two years ago. While I was once taking up to two pills a week, I am currently taking X only once or twice a month. I was also recently prescribed Serzone for social anxiety. I started taking it about 7 weeks ago, and am up to 500 mg/day (possibly will take more). The last two times I've taken X (both within the last 7 weeks), I've had very minimal "rolling" effects from X. It is my understanding that Prozac has been proven to prevent the effectiveness of X, but I had not heard that about other anti-depressants. Is there an anti-depressant that will not limit the effectiveness of X? I'm beginning to feel like doing X now is just a waste of money. And probably isn't helping the anti-depressant do its job very well.
Posted by CraigF on October 31, 2000, at 7:55:21
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Ryan P. on October 30, 2000, at 10:35:39
Not only that, but by taking ecstacy you are destroying your brain's ability to maintain a good mood, free of anxiety. Ask your doctor.
I'm not being sanctimonious, I'm 28 myself and all my friends roll. I had to stop because it affects my moods too much in the long run.
The choice is yours, but make sure you know what it is doing to your brain. Find out from your doctor, not Time magazine, not a DARE poster.
Posted by Ryan P. on November 1, 2000, at 11:44:34
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by CraigF on October 31, 2000, at 7:55:21
> Not only that, but by taking ecstacy you are destroying your brain's ability to maintain a good mood, free of anxiety. Ask your doctor.
>
> I'm not being sanctimonious, I'm 28 myself and all my friends roll. I had to stop because it affects my moods too much in the long run.
>
> The choice is yours, but make sure you know what it is doing to your brain. Find out from your doctor, not Time magazine, not a DARE poster.I know full well what it is doing to my brain. I've done an adequate amount of research and understand the functions of serotonin and the process utilized by neurotransmitters and axons, etc. I do research on any drug that I might take-including serzone. My question is not concerning the harmful effects of E. I already know all that stuff. My question is regarding the combination of both E and serzone. That combination I do not understand as clearly. What causes the two chemicals to balance each other out? It seems that an anti-depressant that enhances serotonin would complement an illegal drug that does, in essence, the same thing. Just to let you know, I've cut down on E use specifically because I know that it can be harmful with overuse, but I also believe that in moderation, the drug can be not only safe but also can provide a unique outlet that allows me to open up and share thoughts with friends and others that I wouldn't normally feel comfortable enough to express.
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Posted by Carlos on April 13, 2003, at 4:30:26
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Dixon on August 24, 2000, at 11:34:58
> I have a different angle to this question. I would never trust medication that I purchased "off the streets" Do you really know what you're getting?
To answer your question... Yes, I know what I'm getting. I've watched the chemist at work and have consistant results. Unfortunately when I'm on a SSRI, MDMA is a waste of money. MDMA's AD and anti-anxiety effects are horribly decreased. I'm now on serzone and haven't done any MDMA since. I hear this is not a traditional SSRI so I may have better or worse results. I guess I'll find out next time. Best wishes.
-Carlos
Posted by fairnymph on April 16, 2003, at 23:49:38
In reply to Serzone and MDMA, posted by Nicole on October 16, 1998, at 22:54:44
You won't feel most of the effects of the MDMA if you are taking serzone.
Posted by tricksaturnsc2 on November 24, 2003, at 20:10:16
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by MrZest on December 10, 1998, at 8:32:46
It's funny the person that said I have bipolar type 2 & i've been able to cover it up until the past few years. They don't seem to realize that bipolar doesn't start until the early 20s (you might be depressed before then, & irritable, but that is not mania. A mixed state is not a manic state, cyclothymia & dysthymia are not bipolar).
I didn't take any drugs until I was 18, never planned to. Had depression since I was 14, developed bipolar around 19 (despite getting violent at 16), that's bipolar I which is more serious BTW.
Been 9 months drug free, never felt better. Lots of drugs kill your serotonin receptors, screwing you permanently. I used to be a cough syrup junkie & now I see everything in flashy, shimmery vision w/ perma trails. I've attempted suicide maybe 10 times since I started drugs.
you don't feel better as soon as you stop the drugs, it takes up to a year later. And you'll never be as well off as if you never took them. You'll be more irritable, more depressed, more psychotic, less intelligent.
After my last cough syrup trip, which was a trip to put all other people's to shame - it was pure dxm powder and it was 6000 mg - I thought I had alzheimer's. I was a complete maniac afterwards (I stopped breathing & was catatonic for awhile) but then I got really depressed. I was extremely agitated, I had a fast car & after not driving it for only 2 weeks I was all agitated because it seemed so slow - obviously it was no slower than before, it's just the drugs permanently slowed down everything.
I thought I had alzheimer's my memory was so bad. I would be thinking "who was it that sang jailhouse rock and blue suede shoes" even when I pictured elvis I couldn't remember his name, for example.
Ironically now i'm very sensitive to serzone, at least when I'm on remeron. I take just 50mg serzone & i'm tweaking (other meds:60mg remeron, 1750 depakote, 30mg ambien & 300 seroquel).
What obviously happened is that I changed my receptors since the last huge dxm dose (which was enough to kill anyone else - i seem to be invincible) because before I used to be on 500 mg of serzone a day while being on depakote & all the things I'm on now.
someone said neuroleptics are neurotoxic - actually quite the opposite is true. Patients that have taken neuroleptics for a long time, when you look at their brain's when they're dead, you see an INCREASED density of receptors, the body's way of counteracting the neuroleptics.
After all this rant, what is my point????
Well that drugs do mess you up permanently, reguardless of what people's level of functioning is it will be worse than if they never had taken drugs,& especially - these people that take ecstasy now
& say how great they're doing - I would love to see where these chronic ecstasy users are 50 years from now. Brain damage does not always show itself right away. Alcoholics can drink for years but then you see it finally catch up with them when they're bald, emotionless, depressed, & impotent. And ecstasy is a lot more neurotoxic than alcohol.I'd put it up there with inhalants.
Posted by Ron Hill on November 24, 2003, at 20:47:42
In reply to You people make me laugh, posted by tricksaturnsc2 on November 24, 2003, at 20:10:16
> It's funny the person that said I have bipolar type 2 & i've been able to cover it up until the past few years. They don't seem to realize that bipolar doesn't start until the early 20s ...
Not true. Here is an article on Childhood On-set Bipolar Disorder:
Facts About Childhood-Onset Bipolar DisorderWhat is childhood-onset bipolar disorder (COBPD), and how does it differ from bipolar disorder (manic-depression) in adults?
All those with bipolar disorder experience mood swings that alternate from periods of severe highs (mania) to severe lows (depression). However, while these abnormally intense moods usually last for weeks or months in adults with the illness, children with bipolar disorder can experience such rapid mood swings that they commonly cycle many times within a day. The most typical pattern of cycling among those with COBPD, called ultra-ultra rapid or ultradian, is most often associated with low arousal states in the mornings followed by increases in energy towards late afternoon or evening.
It is not uncommon for the initial episode of COBPD to present itself as major depression. But as clinical investigators have followed the course of the disorder in children, they have observed a significant rate of transition from depression into bipolar mood states.
Is COBPD usually inherited?
Yes. One of the most important factors in establishing the diagnosis is family history. According to several recent studies, a history of mood disorders (particularly bipolar disorder) and/or alcoholism on both the maternal and paternal sides of a family appears to be commonly associated with COBPD.
How early in childhood does the disorder start? What are some common early symptoms?
Many parents report that their children have seemed different since early infancy. They describe difficulty settling their babies, and they note that their children are easily over-responsive to sensory stimulation. Sleep disturbances and night terrors are also commonly reported.
Later in a child's development, hyperactivity, fidgetiness, difficulties making changes, and high levels of anxiety (particularly in response to separation from the child's mother) are commonly seen. Additionally, being easily frustrated, having difficulty controlling anger, and impulsiveness (difficulty waiting one's turn, interrupting others) often result in prolonged and violent temper tantrums.
Are there other childhood psychiatric conditions that can co-occur with bipolar disorder?
Yes. Rarely does bipolar disorder in children occur by itself. Rather, it is often accompanied by clusters of symptoms that, when observed at certain points of the child's life, suggest other psychiatric disorders such as attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), oppositional defiant disorder, and conduct disorder.
An estimated 50 percent to 80 percent of those with COBPD have ADHD as a co-occuring diagnosis. Since stimulant medications often prescribed for ADHD (Dexedrine, Adderall, Ritalin, Cylert) have been known to escalate the mood and behavioral fluctuations in those with COBPD, it is important to address the bipolar disorder before the attention-deficit disorder in such cases. Some clinicians suggest that the prescription of a stimulant for a child genetically predisposed to develop bipolar disorder may induce an earlier onset or negatively influence the cycling pattern of the illness.
What is the difference between ADHD and COBPD?
Several studies have reported that more than 80 percent of children who go on to develop COBPD have five or more of the primary symptoms of ADHD-distractibility, lack of attention to details, difficulty following through on tasks or instructions, motor restlessness, difficulty waiting one's turn, and interrupting or intruding upon others. In fact, difficulties with attention are so common in children that ADHD is often diagnosed instead of bipolar disorder. Actually, ADHD often appears before a clear development of the frequent alternating mood swings and prolonged temper tantrums associated with COBPD.
While the symptoms of COBPD and ADHD may be similar, their origins differ. For instance, destructiveness and misbehavior are seen in both disorders, but these behaviors often seem intentional in those with COBPD and caused more by carelessness or inattention in those with ADHD. Physical outbursts and temper tantrums, also features of both disorders, are triggered by sensory and emotional overstimulation in those with ADHD but can be caused by limit-setting (e.g., a simple "No" from a parent) in
those with COBPD. Furthermore, while those with ADHD seem to calm down after such outbursts within 15 to 30 minutes, those with COBPD often continue to feel angry, sometimes for hours. It is important to note that children with COBPD are often remorseful following temper tantrums and express that they are unable to control their anger.
Other symptoms, such as irritability and sleep disturbances often accompanied by night terrors with morbid, life-threatening content (e.g., nuclear war or attacking animals), are commonly seen in those with COBPD but are rarely associated with ADHD.
How does the illness affect school performance and social relationships?
Deficits in shifting and sustaining attention, as well as difficulties inhibiting motor activity once initiated, can strongly influence both classroom behavior and the establishment of stable peer relationships. Distractibility, daydreaming, impulsiveness, mischievous bursts of energy that are difficult for the child to control, and sudden intrusions and interruptions in the classroom are also common features of the COBPD.
Stubborn, oppositional, and bossy behavior, usually appearing between the ages of six to eight, pose significant problems for parents, educators, and peers. Risk-taking, disobedience to authority figures, and the likelihood of becoming addicted to psychoactive drugs such as marijuana and cocaine also present serious concerns to those affected by a child with COBPD. Furthermore, a high percentage of children with COBPD have co-occurring learning disabilities, a problem that can negatively affect school performance and self-esteem.
Should parents tell teachers?
Teachers need to be educated about the common behaviors, symptoms, and nature of COBPD. Most families have found that many teachers can be sympathetic allies when they fully understand the day-to-day problems of the child. A teacher's view of a child is limited to the period of day when most bipolar children are less easily aroused and can tolerate and be responsive to social rules set by the teacher. Teachers often see only the child's attention problems, fidgetiness, and occasional abundance of mischievous energy, not the explosive tantrums.
How is COBPD treated?
The first line of treatment is to stabilize the child's mood and to treat sleep disturbances and psychotic symptoms if present. Once the child is stable, therapy that helps him or her understand the nature of the illness and how it affects his or her emotions and behavior is a critical component of a comprehensive treatment plan.
Some medications have also proved useful. Since few treatment studies have been conducted in children, though, most clinicians use drugs that have been tested and proved successful in adult forms of bipolar disorder. For mood stabilization these include: lithium carbonate (Lithobid, Lithane, Eskalith), divalproex sodium (Depakote, Depakene), and carbamazepine (Tegretol). Newer agents such as gabapentin (Neurontin), lamotrigine (Lamictal), and topirimate (Topomax) are currently under clinical investigation and are being used in children. (Lamictal is not recommended for those under the age of 16.)
For the treatment of psychotic symptoms and aggressive behavior, risperidone (Risperdal) and olanzapine (Zyprexa) are commonly used newer agents, while thioridazine (Mellaril), trifluperazine (Trilafon), and haloperidol (Haldol) are old standbys. Clonazepam (Klonopin) and lorezapam (Ativan) are also used to treat anxiety states, induce sleep, and put a brake on rapid-cycling swings in activity and energy.
What about the use of antidepressant drugs?
It's very risky. Several studies have reported very high rates of the induction of mania or hypomania (rapid-cycling) in children with bipolar disorder who are exposed to antidepressant drugs of all classes. In addition, the child may experience a marked increase in irritability and aggression. The course of the disorder may be altered if antidepressants are prescribed without mood stabilizers.
Resources:
Papolos, D.F. and J.D. Papolos. The Bipolar Child. New York City: Broadway Books, in press (pub. date fall, 1999).
Papolos, D.F. and J.D. Papolos. Overcoming Depression. New York City: HarperCollins, 1997.Reviewed by Demitri F. Papolos, M.D., associate professor of psychiatry and co-director of the Program in Behavioral Genetics, Albert Einstein College of Medicine/Montefiore Medical Center, New York City
Source: NAMI at www.nami.org
http://www.healthieryou.com/bipolarch.html
-- Ron
Posted by maxx44 on November 24, 2003, at 23:40:45
In reply to You people make me laugh, posted by tricksaturnsc2 on November 24, 2003, at 20:10:16
very wise. but you neglect the brain's odd resilience. on the other hand, i wonder if it extends to shrink meds. as to irreversability? that remains moot---like what's the difference between a 20 year-old vs. 30? the age difference is certainly irreversible, but so what? you may not qualify it. quantify it? sure. i fight fire with fire, tricky. you're on many meds, sounds like the same approach. i founded two fortunes on imipramine, so i became trusting. unwise. however, the reward for searching, in my case, has been great--but dangerous as life.
Posted by ramsea on November 25, 2003, at 10:28:47
In reply to You people make me laugh, posted by tricksaturnsc2 on November 24, 2003, at 20:10:16
I was told by my pdoc, and have read it in the DiagnosticManual, that a clinical Mixed Episode contains sufficient criteria for both a Manic episode and an episode of Major Depression. Then, to be labelled Bipolar 1 means having experienced at least one manic episode. Apparently a Mixed Episode would qualify one for Bipolar 1, based on the Manic aspect. It's just that the person is also having a true depressive episode at the same time as the manic episode.
I believe these distinctions can be tricky for doctors to make---not to mention what it's like for patients to have to experience. I don't care, so long as my treatment enables me to get on in life.
You have a disturbing tale to tell, but it is important for people to hear about experiences like yours. Good luck.
Posted by maxx44 on November 25, 2003, at 15:07:09
In reply to Re: You people make me laugh » tricksaturnsc2, posted by ramsea on November 25, 2003, at 10:28:47
'getting on with life'---my goal as well. i don't wish to disturb, rather inform. meds are sneaky, shame we're all so different in that respect---then things would be easy, but i guess diversity of neuro-systems is required by life. i feel it's important to consider i'm a known 'paradoxical reactor'---just makes things wilder for drs. best wishes
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2003, at 22:03:54
In reply to You people make me laugh, posted by tricksaturnsc2 on November 24, 2003, at 20:10:16
> You people make me laugh
You may not agree with someone, but please don't post anything that could lead them to feel put down:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
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