![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 58. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Alucard on April 23, 2008, at 21:56:46
Hey all, there seems to be quite a few people with a decent amount of experience here, so I'd appreciate their input on a couple questions I have:
1. For maximum bio-availability of the LIQUID SUBLINGUAL form of selegiline citrate (i.e. Cyprenil or Selepryl), which is better: to take the drops on an empty stomach or with fruit juice or with a meal? I know the pill form of selegiline hydrochloride (i.e. Eldepryl, Jumex, etc.) absorbs far better with a high-fat meal, but I can't find any recommendations about which is best for the liquid citrate form.
2. Does anybody have a preference (obviously subjective) for Cyprenil vs. Selepryl?
3. Any suggestions for the best (relatively cheap) supplement to combine with my regimen for antidepressant/motivational purposes? All I'm currently taking is 5mg selegiline citrate twice daily at 9am and 3pm with meals, as well as 1000mg L-phenylalanine with 100mg Vitamin B-6 twice daily in between meals. I eat very well but could use a dopamine + norepinephrine + serotonin + enkephalin/endorphin boost, as my brain just seems not to make enough of those neurotransmitters.
Thanks!
Posted by Sigismund on April 24, 2008, at 2:45:04
In reply to A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Alucard on April 23, 2008, at 21:56:46
>1. For maximum bio-availability of the LIQUID SUBLINGUAL form of selegiline citrate (i.e. Cyprenil or Selepryl), which is better: to take the drops on an empty stomach or with fruit juice or with a meal? I know the pill form of selegiline hydrochloride (i.e. Eldepryl, Jumex, etc.) absorbs far better with a high-fat meal, but I can't find any recommendations about which is best for the liquid citrate form.
Put the drops under your tongue and let them be absorbed from there.
I think that's the idea. It's what I did.>2. Does anybody have a preference (obviously subjective) for Cyprenil vs. Selepryl?
Couldn't notice any difference.
>3. Any suggestions for the best (relatively cheap) supplement to combine with my regimen for antidepressant/motivational purposes? All I'm currently taking is 5mg selegiline citrate twice daily at 9am and 3pm with meals, as well as 1000mg L-phenylalanine with 100mg Vitamin B-6 twice daily in between meals. I eat very well but could use a dopamine + norepinephrine + serotonin + enkephalin/endorphin boost, as my brain just seems not to make enough of those neurotransmitters.
Nope. No idea at all.I don't think 1mg selegeline = 1mg deprenyl citrate sublingual. The sublingual citrate seems stronger to me.
Posted by Phillipa on April 24, 2008, at 12:11:55
In reply to A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Alucard on April 23, 2008, at 21:56:46
Also welcome to babble see your're new. Lots of great info here and many boards to chose from Welcome again. Phillipa
Posted by undopaminergic on April 25, 2008, at 0:51:01
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s » Alucard, posted by Sigismund on April 24, 2008, at 2:45:04
>
> I don't think 1mg selegeline = 1mg deprenyl citrate sublingual. The sublingual citrate seems stronger to me.
>Any selegiline absorbed directly into the bloodstream (through the sublingual mucous membranes) bypasses first-pass (hepatic) metabolism, which would otherwise convert a large portion of the dose into desmethylselegiline, L-amphetamine and L-methamphetamine, all of which are subject to further metabolism. The amphetamines have no irreversible MAO-inhibitory activity, although they are pharmacologically active in other ways. While desmethylselegiline is an irreversible MAO-B inhibitor, it's considerably less potent as such than selegiline (interestingly, desmethylselegiline seems to have greater neuroprotective potency). In other words, sublingual selegiline produces higher levels of MAO inhibition than oral (swallowed) selegiline.
Posted by bulldog2 on April 25, 2008, at 14:58:28
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s » Alucard, posted by Phillipa on April 24, 2008, at 12:11:55
> Also welcome to babble see your're new. Lots of great info here and many boards to chose from Welcome again. Phillipa
believe me Phillipa will straighten you out!
Posted by bulldog2 on April 25, 2008, at 15:00:52
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by undopaminergic on April 25, 2008, at 0:51:01
You would think with the sublinqual it would be easier on a milligram by milligram basis to reach the point at which it would inhibit mao-a also.
Posted by Alucard on April 25, 2008, at 20:45:45
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on April 25, 2008, at 15:00:52
Well first off thanks for the welcome and the feedback, I've been pokin around the boards a bit and there is a LOT of great subjective and objective info in this forum, very helpful stuff.
I've been taking the Cyprenil for less than a week so far (not anywhere near enough time to notice significant effects according to most others who've taken it) but I took it with a meal the first 3 days and on an empty stomach the last 3 days, and I can't say I notice much difference, though I suppose it would be nearly impossible to notice immediately since there's such a delayed effect with this type of drug. I'm looking forward the big memory/focus boost at the end of week 3 that a few of you have reported, and even more so to the anti-depressant effects around week 5-6. I'll definitely keep up the daily dosing until at least then and keep you all posted on results, thoughts, etc.
In the meantime, throughout Week One I've noticed a strange calmness, a cool (as in not quite cold, but almost) detachment and objectivity about things in general. Definitely don't feel numb or anything, just a little more calculating, like I get an extra second or two to think about things before I have to feel them. Also, I haven't really been getting tired at night, but whenever I decide that it's late and I "should" go climb into bed and attempt sleep, I don't seem to mind just laying there and thinking until I doze off, even if it takes awhile (normally I'm stir crazy and avoid climbing into bed till I'm absolutely exhausted, or I have to read a book or talk to someone till I doze off). Odd, certainly, but none of these are strong effects (yet) so we'll see where this goes.
FYI - I'm taking 7 drops (mg) under my tongue around 9am and 7 more drops around 3pm, and mostly sticking to the MAOI diet just in case (not all that difficult since I'm pretty much a vegan, though avoiding soy sauce has proven interesting).
Thanks again!
Posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2008, at 8:17:52
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Alucard on April 25, 2008, at 20:45:45
> Well first off thanks for the welcome and the feedback, I've been pokin around the boards a bit and there is a LOT of great subjective and objective info in this forum, very helpful stuff.
>
> I've been taking the Cyprenil for less than a week so far (not anywhere near enough time to notice significant effects according to most others who've taken it) but I took it with a meal the first 3 days and on an empty stomach the last 3 days, and I can't say I notice much difference, though I suppose it would be nearly impossible to notice immediately since there's such a delayed effect with this type of drug. I'm looking forward the big memory/focus boost at the end of week 3 that a few of you have reported, and even more so to the anti-depressant effects around week 5-6. I'll definitely keep up the daily dosing until at least then and keep you all posted on results, thoughts, etc.
>
> In the meantime, throughout Week One I've noticed a strange calmness, a cool (as in not quite cold, but almost) detachment and objectivity about things in general. Definitely don't feel numb or anything, just a little more calculating, like I get an extra second or two to think about things before I have to feel them. Also, I haven't really been getting tired at night, but whenever I decide that it's late and I "should" go climb into bed and attempt sleep, I don't seem to mind just laying there and thinking until I doze off, even if it takes awhile (normally I'm stir crazy and avoid climbing into bed till I'm absolutely exhausted, or I have to read a book or talk to someone till I doze off). Odd, certainly, but none of these are strong effects (yet) so we'll see where this goes.
>
> FYI - I'm taking 7 drops (mg) under my tongue around 9am and 7 more drops around 3pm, and mostly sticking to the MAOI diet just in case (not all that difficult since I'm pretty much a vegan, though avoiding soy sauce has proven interesting).
>
> Thanks again!Anyone have any idea how much of the deprenyl is absorbed under the tongue? If there is a high conversion rate you could use the liquid as an AD and get mao-a inhibition. I hated the patch as you only have three sizes and they left big blotches and was just inconvenient. With the drops you can titrate more conviently.
Posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2008, at 19:32:28
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2008, at 8:17:52
Didn't know you had been on ENSAM? Phillipa
Posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2008, at 19:51:51
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s » bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2008, at 19:32:28
> Didn't know you had been on ENSAM? Phillipa
For a month at the lowest patch dose. Some insomnia and increased energy. No real AD effect but maybe needed to go to a higher dosed patch. Didn't make me jittery so I disagree with your doc that it might be to stimulating for you. Everydone reacts differently.
Posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2008, at 21:02:00
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2008, at 19:51:51
Bulldog but I have anxiety you say you have add or want something to perk up I want to perk down. Love Jan
Posted by Alucard on April 26, 2008, at 21:03:44
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2008, at 19:51:51
I think if you're having problems with too much stimulation, insomnia or jittery effects you could try combining the selegiline with 1500 mg of L-tryptophan daily, which would increase serotonin and melatonin levels to balance with the increased norepinephrine and dopamine from the selegiline. Take 500mg L-tryptophan on an empty stomach with some fruit juice three times a day and see how that works for anti-depressant and pro-healthy-sleep-pattern effects. From what I've experienced, L-trypophan (increased serotonin) leads to a "chill" kind of mood lift so that irritating things like traffic just don't bug you as much, whereas dopamine+norepinephrine boosters give a more active, energetic mood lift, but with less tolerance for irritable situations. Combining both seems well worth a shot for y'all with more serious depression. Actually I think I'll give it a shot myself, and post any good results. Anybody tried this particular combo?
Posted by undopaminergic on April 26, 2008, at 21:23:05
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on April 25, 2008, at 15:00:52
> You would think with the sublinqual it would be easier on a milligram by milligram basis to reach the point at which it would inhibit mao-a also.
>Yes. Note that there is no precise "magic" point where it starts to inhibit MAO-A. Rather, MAO-A inhibition is likely to be a (gradual) function of drug concentration and time. There is almost certainly a measurable - but not clinically significant - effect on MAO-A already at standard doses, especially after chronic treatment, perhaps in the range of 10-20%. Furthermore, the dose-response curve is not linear, but begins to flatten as higher levels of inibition are approached, or in other words, the last few percent of MAO are very resistant to inhibition, whereas the first 80-90% are very easily conquered.
Posted by undopaminergic on April 26, 2008, at 22:23:12
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2008, at 8:17:52
>
> Anyone have any idea how much of the deprenyl is absorbed under the tongue? If there is a high conversion rate you could use the liquid as an AD and get mao-a inhibition. I hated the patch as you only have three sizes and they left big blotches and was just inconvenient. With the drops you can titrate more conviently.
>One study found that 1.25 mg sublingual Zydis selegiline was equivalent to 10 mg of oral (swallowed) selegiline tablets, in terms of plasma selegiline contrentrations, while metabolite levels were much lower for the sublingual form.
Posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2008, at 23:29:19
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by undopaminergic on April 26, 2008, at 22:23:12
> >
> > Anyone have any idea how much of the deprenyl is absorbed under the tongue? If there is a high conversion rate you could use the liquid as an AD and get mao-a inhibition. I hated the patch as you only have three sizes and they left big blotches and was just inconvenient. With the drops you can titrate more conviently.
> >
>
> One study found that 1.25 mg sublingual Zydis selegiline was equivalent to 10 mg of oral (swallowed) selegiline tablets, in terms of plasma selegiline contrentrations, while metabolite levels were much lower for the sublingual form.we know that 10 mg of oral deprenyl by itself is considered safe and is basically an mao-b inhibitor. I haven't seen any studies comparing cyprenil to the oral form. So who knows what the ratio between the two forms is. We know that we have to get into the 40 - 60 range with the tablets to inhibit mao-a enough to be meaningful.I believe the tablets have an absorption rate of about 10 % would like to find the rate for liquid deprenyl.
Posted by Alucard on April 27, 2008, at 1:49:08
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2008, at 23:29:19
1.25mg sublingual citrate = approx. 10mg oral hydrochloride? Wow, no wonder such a difference in effects is reported between the two forms.
Interesting thought: everybody who's done any amount of research on selegiline has come across the rat (and other mammal) studies where selegiline extended potential life span so dramatically. My question is this - what was the method of administration and exact formulation (citrate, hyrochloride, freebase in saline solution, or some other form entirely?) of the drug in those studies? If I had to guess I'd say that injection was the route of administration, and if that's the case then the more direct the route of administration the better (i.e. injection > patch > sublingual > oral). Hmmmmmm.
Posted by bulldog2 on April 27, 2008, at 9:32:40
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Alucard on April 27, 2008, at 1:49:08
> 1.25mg sublingual citrate = approx. 10mg oral hydrochloride? Wow, no wonder such a difference in effects is reported between the two forms.
>
> Interesting thought: everybody who's done any amount of research on selegiline has come across the rat (and other mammal) studies where selegiline extended potential life span so dramatically. My question is this - what was the method of administration and exact formulation (citrate, hyrochloride, freebase in saline solution, or some other form entirely?) of the drug in those studies? If I had to guess I'd say that injection was the route of administration, and if that's the case then the more direct the route of administration the better (i.e. injection > patch > sublingual > oral). Hmmmmmm.The problem with the patch is there are only three sizes so there's not room for titration. Plus I found they fell off last summer when I sweated during exercise. Like to see zelapar used for depression. I imagine it would work like the patch since it bypasses the stomach and liver first pass.
Posted by Amigan on April 28, 2008, at 7:31:56
In reply to A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Alucard on April 23, 2008, at 21:56:46
I'm not sure of this, but i feel that oral administration works better for me. It improves my mood much better than the sublingual administration which does very little for my mood.
About the effects of Selegiline on NA that i keep reading about: Are there any evidences that Selegiline increases NA at MAO-B selective dose range and not just Dopamine and PEA?
Posted by undopaminergic on April 28, 2008, at 10:12:46
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Amigan on April 28, 2008, at 7:31:56
> I'm not sure of this, but i feel that oral administration works better for me. It improves my mood much better than the sublingual administration which does very little for my mood.
>
> About the effects of Selegiline on NA that i keep reading about: Are there any evidences that Selegiline increases NA at MAO-B selective dose range and not just Dopamine and PEA?
>PEA and the amphetamines dose dependently release dopamine and noradrenaline. Amphetamines also release serotonin, but less potently and at higher doses than for the catecholamines.
Many people find amphetamines to be effective mood boosters, but tolerance and addiction are potential problems.
There is some evidence that selegiline is more noradrenergic than rasagiline, and that is probably due to the amphetamines, but there are very few studies comparing the two MAO-B inhibitors, and it may be interesting to note that they are all co-authored by Dr. Youdim, the "father" of rasagiline.
Posted by undopaminergic on April 28, 2008, at 20:11:50
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Alucard on April 27, 2008, at 1:49:08
> 1.25mg sublingual citrate = approx. 10mg oral hydrochloride?
>No, sublingual hydrochloride.
> Wow, no wonder such a difference in effects is reported between the two forms.
>
> Interesting thought: everybody who's done any amount of research on selegiline has come across the rat (and other mammal) studies where selegiline extended potential life span so dramatically. My question is this - what was the method of administration and exact formulation (citrate, hyrochloride, freebase in saline solution, or some other form entirely?) of the drug in those studies? If I had to guess I'd say that injection was the route of administration, and if that's the case then the more direct the route of administration the better (i.e. injection > patch > sublingual > oral). Hmmmmmm.
>Sublingual beats transdermal (the sublingual tissue is more permeable than regular skin).
Dr. Knoll used subcutaneous injections of 0.25 mg/kg L-deprenyl three times a week in his famous experiment where some of the selegiline-treated rats lived longer than the documented maximum life span of the rat strain in question. The abstract doesn't mention which form was used, but I presume it was the hydrochloride, because it's stable and readily soluble in water, whereas the freebase is reportedly volatile and poorly soluble.
It appears that the EMSAM patches use the freebase, which is a yellow to colourless oily liquid.
From what I've been able to discern, the so-called liquid selegiline citrate products are actually the freebase stabilised with citric acid and possibly other preservatives. In fact, I've been unable to find any proof of the existence of other forms of selegiline than the hydrochloride salt and freebase, although it would almost certainly be possible to produce some.
Some liquid selegiline products are reportedly mere aqueous solutions of the hydrochloride.
What is your liquid selegiline like? Is it an oily yellowish liquid, or does it seem more like water?
Posted by bulldog2 on April 29, 2008, at 8:40:10
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by undopaminergic on April 28, 2008, at 20:11:50
> > 1.25mg sublingual citrate = approx. 10mg oral hydrochloride?
> >
>
> No, sublingual hydrochloride.
>
> > Wow, no wonder such a difference in effects is reported between the two forms.
> >
> > Interesting thought: everybody who's done any amount of research on selegiline has come across the rat (and other mammal) studies where selegiline extended potential life span so dramatically. My question is this - what was the method of administration and exact formulation (citrate, hyrochloride, freebase in saline solution, or some other form entirely?) of the drug in those studies? If I had to guess I'd say that injection was the route of administration, and if that's the case then the more direct the route of administration the better (i.e. injection > patch > sublingual > oral). Hmmmmmm.
> >
>
> Sublingual beats transdermal (the sublingual tissue is more permeable than regular skin).
>
> Dr. Knoll used subcutaneous injections of 0.25 mg/kg L-deprenyl three times a week in his famous experiment where some of the selegiline-treated rats lived longer than the documented maximum life span of the rat strain in question. The abstract doesn't mention which form was used, but I presume it was the hydrochloride, because it's stable and readily soluble in water, whereas the freebase is reportedly volatile and poorly soluble.
>
> It appears that the EMSAM patches use the freebase, which is a yellow to colourless oily liquid.
>
> From what I've been able to discern, the so-called liquid selegiline citrate products are actually the freebase stabilised with citric acid and possibly other preservatives. In fact, I've been unable to find any proof of the existence of other forms of selegiline than the hydrochloride salt and freebase, although it would almost certainly be possible to produce some.
>
> Some liquid selegiline products are reportedly mere aqueous solutions of the hydrochloride.
>
> What is your liquid selegiline like? Is it an oily yellowish liquid, or does it seem more like water?I believe the 1.25 to 10 ratio is for zelapar the new sublingual tablet for pd. So we don't know if the liquids are absorbed that well.
On a more disconcerting note Discovery who made the first liquid depreynyl citrate which is now off the market claims that selepryl and ceprenyl are fakes and are just liquid selegiline hcl.
I wrote the company that makes these meds and asked them about that and have not heard from them yet.
Posted by alucard on April 29, 2008, at 16:54:32
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on April 29, 2008, at 8:40:10
> What is your liquid selegiline like? Is it an oily yellowish liquid, or does it seem more like water?
undopaminergic - The Cyprenil I'm taking is a clear liquid the consistency of water that has a slightly bitter citric taste to it, so it's not the freebase.
>On a more disconcerting note: Discovery, who made the first liquid depreynyl citrate which is now off the market claims that selepryl and cyprenil are fakes and are just liquid selegiline hcl.
I wrote the company that makes these meds and asked them about that and have not heard from them yet.bulldog2 & undopaminergic & everybody - I too read Discovery's claim that Cyprenil and Selepryl were actually just liquid selegiline HCl intentionally mislabeled as the citrate, and I read that BEFORE I ordered the Cyprenil. Here's my thoughts on it:
First of all, as Discovery mentions on their website, they never actually made the liquid deprenyl citrate (LDC from now on) themselves, they contracted with a Mexican pharmaceutical company called Cyto-Pharma to make it for them. Apparently Discovery developed the PROCEDURE to make LDC, but then they licensed the use of that procedure to Cyto-Pharma so it could be made cheaply and then imported through Discovery. This is important because one of the so-called "fake" LDCs (Selepryl) is produced by a Mexican pharmaceutical company called...Cyto-Pharma. When Discovery's offices in Florida were raided and they were shut down in 1993, do you think all the chemists at Cyto-Pharma's lab in Mexico suddenly forgot the LDC manufacturing procedure? Definitely not, and on top of that chemists keep very detailed records of procedures. Furthermore, in the Mexican pharmaceutical market matters of licensing, patents, etc. are basically ignored, so Discovery getting shut down was actually just a free pass to Cyto-Pharma to sell their product directly to the American consumers of LDC under their own brand name (Selepryl instead of Discovery) with no competition (until Cyprenil came along of course).
Secondly, Discovery's claim that nobody else in the whole world has figured out how to make selegiline citrate is just plain ridiculous and insultingly unscientific, along with quite a few other claims on their website. I majored in organic chemistry in college and I can tell you this with certainty: practically any freebase that can be stabilized with hydrochloride can also be stabilized with citrate. Or, for that matter, with hydrogen cyanide (not that you'd want to use that particular one for ingestion), or any of a dozen other similar molecules. There are a few exceptions to this, BUT if one chemist can stabilize selegiline freebase with citrate, then so can anybody else with a year or two of organic chemistry training. It's just not that complex. So if Discovery can make selegiline citrate, then so can anybody else.
While we're on the subject of Discovery's claims about LDC, I may as well address this one too: Discovery claims that selegiline citrate is a "different chemical entity" than selegiline hydrochloride. This is technically TRUE, and it definitely matters when discussing subligually-absorbed selegiline. It doesn't matter if you simply swallow the LDC, because your stomach is filled with hydrochloric acid which will convert LDC to LD-Hydrochloride before it is absorbed. BUT if you absorb LDC through the mucus membrane under your tongue and in the rest of your mouth, you bypass that conversion to the hydrochloride form and allow the citrate form to go more or less directly into your bloodstream. Why is this important? Because sometimes stabilizer molecules (citrate, hydrochloride, hydrogen cyanide, etc.) have medically important effects themselves, and/or they interfere with the effect of the drug they are stabilizing. The stabilizer molecules can also aid or hinder absorption and use of the drug they are stabilizing. This can be seen most commonly in vitamins. Calcium citrate, for example, is better absorbed than tri-calcium phosphate, and is thus a better form to take if you must get your calcium from a pill. Both forms are "calcium", but they can technically be called "different chemical entities" because they absorb differently and are processed differently by your body. The same is true for selegiline citrate vs. selegiline hydrochloride, but ONLY when used sublingually or injected.
The Discovery scientists, while they were certainly pioneers of brilliant alternative therapies for many different ailments, appear to have become possessed by the persecuted-savior-complex. I have no doubt that they were intentionally screwed over and discredited by the FDA & Friends, but that doesn't mean that they are 100% correct about everything and beyond reproach. A good portion of their science and information is sound (including the majority of their "conspiracy" theories, in my opinion), but some of it is just a hysterical temper tantrum thrown by a toddler who's been treated unfairly. Like their claim that other people who are making LDC are liars and fakes. It sounds to me like they're just pissed that not only do they no longer have the LDC market cornered but they don't even have a little PIECE of that market any more. However, I have a hard time understanding why they don't just relocate to a foreign country if they really believe everything they write on their website. You'd think if you really believed you had cures for cancer and AIDS and old age, you might try a little harder to get them to the rest of the world? The FDA has no jurisdiction in Mexico or Canada or ANYWHERE except the U.S., and I hear Europe in particular is a lot more friendly to alternative medicine, but maybe I missed something...
Hope that was helpful and not too long or technical! For the record, I'll be ordering a few bottles of Selepryl to try after the Cyprenil runs out in 2 months and I'll post if I notice any subjective differences.
Posted by undopaminergic on April 30, 2008, at 13:53:58
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by alucard on April 29, 2008, at 16:54:32
> >On a more disconcerting note: Discovery, who made the first liquid depreynyl citrate which is now off the market claims that selepryl and cyprenil are fakes and are just liquid selegiline hcl.
> I wrote the company that makes these meds and asked them about that and have not heard from them yet.
>
> bulldog2 & undopaminergic & everybody - I too read Discovery's claim that Cyprenil and Selepryl were actually just liquid selegiline HCl intentionally mislabeled as the citrate, and I read that BEFORE I ordered the Cyprenil. Here's my thoughts on it:
>
> First of all, as Discovery mentions on their website, they never actually made the liquid deprenyl citrate (LDC from now on) themselves, they contracted with a Mexican pharmaceutical company called Cyto-Pharma to make it for them. Apparently Discovery developed the PROCEDURE to make LDC, but then they licensed the use of that procedure to Cyto-Pharma so it could be made cheaply and then imported through Discovery.
>I don't think Cyto-Pharma was given the procedure for making selegiline, only for formulating the so-called "Liquid Deprenyl Citrate" (trade mark). At least according to:
http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=303&st=0&p=2931&#entry2931Quotation of the relevant passage:
"The procedure to only formulate Liquid Deprenyl Citrate was given to Cyto Pharma, but not the procedure for manufacturing deprenyl. The procedure to manufacture deprenyl free base was given to another company in Mexico. The deprenyl free base was then provided to Cyto Pharma to formulate into Liquid Deprenyl Citrate."> > What is your liquid selegiline like? Is it an oily yellowish liquid, or does it seem more like water?
>
> undopaminergic - The Cyprenil I'm taking is a clear liquid the consistency of water that has a slightly bitter citric taste to it, so it's not the freebase.
>So you believe it's an aqueous solution of the citrate salt of selegiline?
Without further data, I would assume it's a solution of the hydrochloride, because no-one has (to my knowledge) ever reported the preparation of a citrate salt of selegiline. Therefore, the characteristics (melting point, solubility, stability, etc.) of such a compound are unknown.
Theoretically, the molecular weight of selegiline citrate would be 379.40. Therefore 2.03 mg of selegiline citrate would correspond to 1 mg of the freebase, or 1.19 mg of the hydrochloride. You would need to take this into account when determining the dosage.
Posted by bulldog2 on April 30, 2008, at 16:00:07
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by undopaminergic on April 30, 2008, at 13:53:58
So selepryl or cyprenil are really selegiline hcl?
Posted by undopaminergic on April 30, 2008, at 16:37:22
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on April 30, 2008, at 16:00:07
I think they very well might be. However, I'm just speculating. The truth would be easy to find out in theory, but who's willing to spend the money and effort on sending a sample of these products to a laboratory for analysis?
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.