![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 131 to 155 of 200. Go back in thread:
Posted by kiddo on February 11, 2002, at 22:41:55
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 11, 2002, at 10:11:49
Yes, I have been in a mental hospital and on the ‘locked’ ward…I’m not now nor have I ever said dysthymia, cyclothymia, major depression, manic depression or any other form of depression was more or less severe than another. What I’m saying is that you seem to be downplaying, minimizing, and/or trivializing others’ experiences if they aren’t suffering from major depression.
Major depression, as all of the mood disorders ARE mental illnesses, with physical symptoms…from my understanding, they are classified as a psychiatric disorder. Severe mental illness may cause a change in the brain, but not all of them originate that way…for example, severe childhood trauma (physical, sexual, emotional, etc..) can cause those changes…hence ‘mental illness’ not physical.
Sorry, but I learned long ago about trusting, and don’t trust anyone that says “Trust me”…no offense, just how I am. I think all of us ‘mentally ill’ people would be taken more seriously if our society was educated on the truth, there are too many stereotypes/stigmas attached because people are uneducated.
Thank you for admitting they are ALL real depression, that’s what I’ve been trying to say all along…it is you not me that used ‘real’ depression vs. ‘dysthmia’, etc…(not quoting that mind you)
Again-side effects seem rather trivial too you…
I don’t know what you are talking about when you say “LOL-Again it’s obvious you never had real depression before”. Although I’m not sure, I can’t recall you saying it before, and if you had, I chose to ‘not see’ it there…I take offense at your claiming to know what I have or haven’t been Dx’d with, what I have or haven’t been through in my life, and if I’m suffering more or less than you; especially if you are claiming it’s this ‘obvious’ from reading the very few posts I’ve made to PB….
The truth of the matter is you don’t know me at all, so please don’t pretend that you do. I may have been through a lot more than you or anyone else on this board, and then again maybe not, but I don’t claim that I have, don’t think my suffering is any greater than anyone else’s here, because I honestly don’t know. Something that I’ve dealt with may not have bothered someone else, or may have sent them to the psych ward…I don’t downplay or trivialize another’s experience for that very reason…you really don’t know unless you’ve walked a mile in their mocassins. True?
For the record, I have been ‘nailed by the big one’. Again, you are basing your knowledge on the fact that I’m not agreeing with you, so I must not have had the ‘real’ thing, or at least that’s how it is in my opinion. I’m glad you find it funny, because I never have and wouldn’t, especially if I had been there and supposedly knew that someone else hadn’t.
You didn’t give me a definition of ‘real mental illness’, you gave me mental disorders. I know those, but thanks for answering.
My meds have helped me, and I’m still here; no, I’m not cured either, but improving, and care about the people I’ve met and become ‘friends’ with. I was only asking about your meds, and how you were doing. I feel like I’m being treated as if I crawled from under a rock, I haven’t.
I’m sorry, but I don’t remember you ever saying that meds weren’t successful for you-I apologize if you have.
Kiddo
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> > I disagree. Real depression IS the sadness/hopelessness/suicidal thoughts “stuff” you are talking about. People respond to depression in different ways…because you have insomnia doesn’t mean that if someone sleeps 22 out of 24 hours doesn’t mean they aren’t clinically depressed. Severe depression can also make you GAIN thirty pound without trying and not increasing your appetite. Real depression affects different people in different ways…as for the dry ejaculation, I can’t comment, as I’m a woman. However, I don’t understand if REAL depression is not being able to get it up, how could you even have a dry ejaculation…but again, I’m “only” a woman…depression regardless of how ‘severe’ is still REAL DEPRESSION!!!!! Suicidal thoughts with or without other symptoms of clinical depression are a very serious matter, and someone that’s suffering from fake depression doesn’t have suicidal thoughts.
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> Look, I am just trying to make you aware that there are varying degrees of severity of mental illness. Have you ever been to a mental hospital and been to the "lockup" ward? Where the psychotic people are? Where the doctors just keep you drugged up for days. Are you going to honestly tell me that "dythymia" is as severe or as serious as that?
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> There are varying degrees of severity when it comes to mood disorders. For example, classic manic depression (bipolar disorder) is WAY more serious than dysthymia. And the melancholia subtype of major depression (severe sleeping, eating, sex drive and cognition probs) is way more severe than dysthymia.
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> A person with dysthymia can usually still generally function in the world, still work some type of job, etc. It is irritating to read about people who stop modern class antidepressants for trivial reasons (sexual dysfunction, weight gain, dry mouth) when your depressed as dirt, cant sleep good and losing weight like crazy and cant work cause you cant think clearly.
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> > > Real depression is a physical disease. Its not mental illness. All "mental illnesses" should be formally reclassified as Neurological diseases. I get irritated as hell when I read sleep problems in depression being described as "somatic" complaints. Fuck psychiatry. Its way more than a "somatic complaint." If you cant sleep good, your "mental health" as well as your physical health is going to deteriorate.
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> > Depression is depression and I’m not going to argue the matter of physical vs. mental illness. Why should it be formally reclassified as a Neurological disease?
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> Because all severe forms of mental illness are brain based illnesses. Severe mental illness causes changes in the brain. Things would be much better for all of us if society just started thinking of these problems as neuro diseases and not as "emotional" problems. Trust me on this, all of us "mentally ill" people would be taken much more seriously if our society perceived our problems as physically based, neuro diseases of the brain.
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> All behavior, both normal and abnormal, is mediated thru neuronal function ie, the brain.
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> > What if you sleep ‘too good’? Is your physical health going to deteriorate as well? Your symptoms are not the only symptoms of depression. There isn’t only “one” way to be depressed….Different people process things differently, the same disorder/disease can have different effects on different people. If that weren’t the case then we’d only need one med for each disorder, right?
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> > > Im sorry to put things so graphically for you, but Im just trying to point out some major differences between REAL depression and mild depression. There ARE differences.
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> > Thanks for the apology, you are graphic…I realize you are trying to point out the differences between the different FORMS of depression, and I agree there are differences…BUT they are all REAL DEPRESSION!
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> Sure its all real depression, but there are degrees of severity. Some cause disability more than others. Dysthymia or situational depression rarely causes longterm disability.
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> > > A person with the severe kind of depression is just grateful for any relief they get thru meds. They are grateful for just a good night of sleep...hell, just being able to sleep at all for some is a feeling of wonderment and joy. Drug side effects seem rather trivial compared to this severe kind of depression.
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> > I disagree again…ppl become REALLY depressed (vs. unreal) by weight gain, lack of sexual desire/performance, and other side effects of medication.
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> LOL...again its obvious you never had real depression before.
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> >True, being able to sleep is a relief, as well as WAKING UP can be. To you drug effects seem trivial, however, that isn’t the situation with everyone.
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> Sure its not the situation with everyone. For people who have milder forms of depression, these folks havent yet experienced the severe breakdown in basic physiological bodily functions that severe depression causes. What psychiatry classifies as "somatic" complaints. For someone who hasnt yet experienced the real thing, SSRI side effects are bothersome.
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> All I have to say about that is wait til you get nailed by the big one. Real melancholic SEVERE major depression. Or psychotic depression. Or manic depression. LOL hehehe Trust me, you wont care about "SSRI side effects" anymore. You will thank God just for the fact you have these drugs so you can sleep and not end up going crazy.
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> > > Im sorry to put it this way, but its just the way it really is. Too many dysthymic depressives and people with "life stress" are taking SSRIs in my opinion and obviously they get turned off by these side effects. But guess what? Many of them dont really have real depression to begin with. A lot of these kind of people just need to do the talk therapy thing and stop partying so much, cut out the booze and increase the aerobic exercise.
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> > I’m sorry you put it that way too. It’s really sad because you know; people with “life stress” kill themselves everyday. Why do you think these people party so much, and drink too much alcohol? Why do you think they aren’t really depressed in the first place?
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> A person with true depression...clinical depression wouldnt even be partying to begin with. Plenty of people with dysthymia or mild depression self medicate with booze and recreational drugs however.
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> I found after I became clinically depressed my response to booze totally changed. I found out that I didnt get a beer buzz anymore and booze didnt make me feel loose and happy anymore. Booze just made me sadder, more depressed, cry more and made my insomnia MUCH worse.
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> Many cases of "mild depression" and dysthymia are caused by or exacerbated by alcohol. And too often the person doesnt even realize its the booze causing their dysthymia. Cut out booze totally and see how your mood lifts if you have dysthymia.
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> > > Thats why I wish psychiatry was just formally merged into Neurology. Let the people who have real mental illness go to Neurologists. And let the people who just have mild depression or "Woody Allen depression" go to some talk therapy asshole. I dont have the patience for all this psychology/psychobabble crap after what Ive been thru. It gets on my nerves and its an insult to me after what Ive been thru. I have a REAL PHYSICAL disease and I am not going to stop taking my meds cause of "sexual dysfunction" or "dry mouth."
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> > Your attitude regarding Psychiatry really concerns me. I’m amazed at your hatred toward the mental health field. What exactly do you consider ‘real mental illness’?
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> Here is my personal definition of "real mental illness."
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> 1) schizophrenia and all psychotic disorders
> 2) classic manic depression AKA bipolar type 1
> 3) major depression, especially the melancholia or psychotic depression subtypes
> 4) all of the anxiety disorders
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> >I don’t know what a psychiatrist did to you to warrant such venom toward all psychiatrists, but it sure seems that way. I don’t have much patience either, and I’ve been through more than my share of bad things in life.
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> > Have your meds cured you? Are you now functioning, sleeping, eating normally, and being a normal person in society?
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> Hell no. Im hanging out on psychobabble arent I? What do you think people who hang out here are like? Many of them are treatment resistant.
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> >I’m not trying to be facetious, sarcastic and/or whatnot, I’m honestly curious as to how your meds have helped.
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> As Ive already told you several times, meds dont work for me very good. Somewhat, enough to keep me afloat and alive but thats all. Im hardly in remission which is what Id like. Like I said, Id gladly trade some "SSRI side effects" for a drug that sent me into remission and kept me there. Antidepressant side effects are rather trivial to me.
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> Old School
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> > Kiddo
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Posted by rxcuriousity on February 11, 2002, at 22:44:18
In reply to Re: Sexual Side Effects SUCK (ok, bad choice of words), posted by petezz on February 11, 2002, at 21:43:04
Neither do I advocate the use of any illegal substances, but I too found "pot" to be extremely effective at temporarily relieving the sexual side effects (especially anorgasmia) of various antidepressants.
Posted by Denise528 on February 12, 2002, at 9:44:02
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 11, 2002, at 10:11:49
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> > I've got to say I totally agree with Old Schools views on Real Depression. I am not saying that I have cornered the market on "Real Depression" but if you have truly suffered with it then SSRI side effects are not an issue. I wish I was well enough to even care about whether or not I had a sex drive or whether I'd put a bit of weight on. It makes me angry when I read peoples complaints about these things. I'm not saying that these problems are insignificant but in comparison to real depression they are extremely trivial.I put a lot of weight on with Paxil but I was so grateful to be feel normal and alive again that the Weight gain wastn't an issue.
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Posted by sid on February 12, 2002, at 10:15:32
In reply to Dry Mouth and Constipation, posted by IsoM on February 11, 2002, at 19:42:55
Hi IsoM,
you toughed it out though, until something else was available that could help you. I can understand switching if it's severe and once something potentially better comes along.
I read stories of people switching for benign reasons, sometimes not even waiting for a month or so, when side effects usually decrease, and I find it sad because meds are discarded that could help some people. I was tempted to stop after 2 days of Effexor XR, but I called my doc who reassured me that the worse side effects would go away. I continued and found out my body got used to it and adjusted. I still have problems (sleep and constipation), but I try to manage them because I can see the good that Effexor XR does to me.- sid
Posted by IsoM on February 12, 2002, at 11:58:17
In reply to Re: Dry Mouth and Constipation » IsoM, posted by sid on February 12, 2002, at 10:15:32
I wonder if some of these people who stop are those who never waited long enough to see if it was effective, or others who perhaps waited a long time but had very little relief from their depression.
It's incredible the negative view some have about meds. They've been so brainwashed the other way that all meds are harmful & poison to our system. My 20 yr old son suffers from quite severe depression. He can function in the world but barely at times. He's thin to begin with & has lost 15 lb the last 3 weeks - I'm really worried about him but I can't force him to do anything. He HATES meds. so many different kinds have been tried on him with limited success & sometimes nasty side-effects. He was overjoyed when Celexa worked on him, but when it pooped out 2 months later, he wouldn't even bother trying to increase it. Urrggg! It did the same for me, but an increase made it work again & has for 2 years now.
I have no idea why some people are so adverse to taking meds!!! I've questioned him but he can't even explain to himself why, let alone me. When his depression lifts, he's reasonable & logical again. But how can I get it to lift if he refuses meds?
Posted by Ella on February 12, 2002, at 12:47:53
In reply to Re: Dry Mouth and Constipation » sid, posted by IsoM on February 12, 2002, at 11:58:17
I feel that it is usually depression when disrupive thoughts, feelings, andother symptoms of depression interrupt a persons life more than a "regular person's" problems would. And if a person is not truly depressed, they still have problems and could use the help of meds and therapy.
My depression is a milder long term one, I have not been hospitalized, but I know I have depression. I have been so lucky to not have to do much while depressed, if I would have had to I would have ended up in a hospital for sure.It is true that there are people out there that have more severe depression than I, but it has been the hardest thing to deal with in my life.
We all have major challenges as people and everyone's problems are inportent.
Ella Miatabamboo
Posted by Reneeb on February 12, 2002, at 16:41:50
In reply to Varying Depression, posted by Ella on February 12, 2002, at 12:47:53
Hi Guys, I can understand the frustration you must feel when you read the many complaints there are (I am one of them) about meds that make you gain weight, have sexual side effects, etc.,and think I would be estatic if thats the only things I had to worry about.
I took my Mother to the doctor for a regular check up, two days later she was diagnosed with a terminal form of luekemia and was told she probably would only have a year left. I was completely devasted, I could only imagine what my Mother felt. This was a woman who at 72yrs old , went on vacations by herself, golfed at least 3 times a week, went out dancing every weekend - I couldn't even keep up with her LOL. She started chemo right away. After that it was more chemo, blood transfusions monthly sometimes weekly, many hospital stays which would last for a month at a time. The doctors told us that the level of pain she was in (levels from one to ten), was a ten. It has been almost a year now and I have never heard one complaint or I have yet to see her feel sorry for herself. So, you could understand how I would feel when I'd hear someone complaining about something "I THOUGHT" had little significance and would say "You don't have a clue what pain and suffering really is."
I have learned thru my year of discovery that I needed to be more tolerant of others pain and suffering. No matter how trivial I think their problem might be compared to mine - they are just as devasted.
I can't imagine what it feels like to be so depressed that it takes everything you have just to get up in the morning. I only know that even though some of us couldn't possible understand the depth of suffering - doesn't mean that we are uncapable of giving support.
I would feel terrible if anyone that came to this site to find support and comfort was discouraged because after reading some of these threads are turned away because they feel that their problems weren't severe enough to warrant help.
Thanks for letting me vent,Renee
Posted by Mr. Scott on February 12, 2002, at 19:00:27
In reply to Re: Sexual Side Effects S***, posted by rxcuriousity on February 11, 2002, at 22:44:18
> Neither do I advocate the use of any illegal substances, but I too found "pot" to be extremely effective at temporarily relieving the sexual side effects (especially anorgasmia) of various antidepressants.
Wow! It worsened mine?!?!
Posted by sid on February 12, 2002, at 19:21:06
In reply to Re: Dry Mouth and Constipation » sid, posted by IsoM on February 12, 2002, at 11:58:17
Refusing to take meds may be a symptom of the depression itself. I refused to take them for a long time (years), and I was told that.
He may feel like he has to make it on his own, that his depression is his fault and that meds woudl be a cope out (sp?). I'm not saying this is how he should feel here, but some people do feel that way. Try telling him that as long as he cannot justify his decision to you and especially to himself, depression is winning. If depression did not affect his thinking and moods, he'd think meds are a good idea.
I don't like meds myself. That's why I'm sticking to Effexor XR and I bear the side effects... The faster I get through this, the faster I may be med- and simultaneously depression-free. I had to have most symptoms of major depression lift before I saw things that way though... so I can understand him. I wish I'd taken meds sooner. Now however, I'm just glad I finally took them. They work on my dysthymia and that's a great feeling.
- sid
Posted by IsoM on February 13, 2002, at 12:58:04
In reply to Re: Varying Depression, posted by Reneeb on February 12, 2002, at 16:41:50
Renee, if it's been a year now since diagnoses & treatment began, is your Mom improving at all? Is it for a certainty terminal?
I love your attitude. We can't trivialise anyone's pain - we're not inside their head knowing what it feels like. Everyone experiences things differently. We're here for support, not to 'best' one another in degree of suffering.
I'm so sorry for you & your dear Mom. She sounds like a wonderful lady & she obviously did well in raising you for you to have such a caring personality.
Posted by IsoM on February 13, 2002, at 13:06:39
In reply to Re: Dry Mouth and Constipation » IsoM, posted by sid on February 12, 2002, at 19:21:06
> > "...Try telling him that as long as he cannot justify his decision to you and especially to himself, depression is winning. If depression did not affect his thinking and moods, he'd think meds are a good idea."
That's a wonderful idea! Thanks - I will try it with slight modification to fit his reasoning.
I had a long visit with him yesterday. When I pointed out to him how much better he'd initially felt on Celexa, he couldn't even remember. I know from my experience & my other son's, that depression sure screws up your memory in a major way! Our vist which started off terrible (he didn't want to see ANYONE) ended up close & sweet. I love him with all my heart. He's the sort of person people automatically love. He exudes some sort of charisma, warmth, & empathy for others that draws people to him. I wish with all my heart, he was feeling better.
I know his father (my ex-) screwed up his mind so much. My son feels duty-bound to visit him & help him out financially but has no love or respect for him (he's come out bluntly & told me). I feel like he's a leech, draining my son but it's my son's decision & I won't involve myself as I hardly think I'm objective about it all.
Posted by Reneeb on February 13, 2002, at 13:16:41
In reply to Re: Varying Depression » Reneeb, posted by IsoM on February 13, 2002, at 12:58:04
> IsoM, Thank you for the kind words. I just sense such anger when I read some of these threads and the anger seems to come out when someone is actually trying to help. I understand why and I know its frustrating but, I think we need to remind each other every now and than that we are here to support - not take their punching bags.
Thank you also for asking about my Mom. Yes, it is terminal. She is doing well as this moment, but this disease is so fickle it could turn around tomorrow and that would be it. I just try not to think about that and consentrate on everyday she is able to celebrate life. I will miss her terribly. I will miss her love for life and how when she walked into a room she would brighten the mood of everyone. She is one of those people that just has that magic.
I have a feeling this is going to be redirected -LOL
Thanks again for being so kind,
Renee
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 13, 2002, at 18:16:58
In reply to Redirect: Some Men's Attitude Towards Women, posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 9:26:53
> Now this is *definitely* something that should be at Psycho-Social-Babble instead of here. :-)
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020202/msgs/18205.html
Bob
Posted by Gabbi on July 10, 2002, at 13:39:53
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by OldSchool on February 10, 2002, at 23:38:38
Why do People insist on having this argument. If it interferes with your life, its DEPRESSION Its not a bloody competition. If you have these depressed feelings that have broken free of their external causes and taken on a life of their own ITS DEPRESSION.
As for the drug detractors, well in a perfect world no one would have to take prescriptions for anything, or wear glasses.But, and here I thank Andrew Solomon for his book "The noonday Demon" READ IT it is the ultimate book on depression, and though its not a 'self help" book its the only thing thats ever helped me feel better during a breakdown.
We don't know what the side effects of all these anti-depressent drugs... true, but we DO know the side effects of untreated depression and that is at the very least a 15% suicide rate.
In addition if you have your first depression treated it can prevent further breakdowns, however if you cycle on and off medication (and I did, I hated taking all those pills) and have subsequent depressive episodes, eventually those episodes have a great chance of increasing to the point where a technically minor disappointment can launch you into a major depressive episode. I think when this happens it must be the time when people who have never had depression think its a character flaw a "wimpy" quality: because it really must look silly to other people, but it is absolutely real to the person suffering. Whether or not they fit into someones arbitrary decision about what "depression" is.
Posted by Geezer on July 10, 2002, at 15:48:39
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by Gabbi on July 10, 2002, at 13:39:53
Hi Gabbi,
Very well said!!
Geezer
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 10, 2002, at 22:24:22
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by Gabbi on July 10, 2002, at 13:39:53
> Why do People insist on having this argument. If it interferes with your life, its DEPRESSION Its not a bloody competition. If you have these depressed feelings that have broken free of their external causes and taken on a life of their own ITS DEPRESSION.
> As for the drug detractors, well in a perfect world no one would have to take prescriptions for anything, or wear glasses.
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> But, and here I thank Andrew Solomon for his book "The noonday Demon" READ IT it is the ultimate book on depression, and though its not a 'self help" book its the only thing thats ever helped me feel better during a breakdown.
I dont know if Id call it the "ultimate" book on depression. I havent yet seen a book that adequately described my severe depression symptoms. In fact, most of the books Ive read that covered this topic were rather poor.Probably the best book Ive read so far when it comes to the topic of severe depression is Max Fink's "Electroshock: Restoring the Mind." I felt that book did a pretty good job of explaining how Ive felt like at times in my severe depression. Most of the books written about depression tend to focus on the purely emotional or psychological aspects of it and the people tend to introspect a lot in the books. Most books Ive seen covering mood disorders the vegetative problems (severe deterioration in sleep) arent talked about enough.
One thing that always gets on my nerves is when I read stuff about depression where its intellectualized. Like the person tries to read poetry or make their illness into an "issues" kind of thing. Mental illness has been intellectualized too much, largely because of the way its thought of by lay people (its just a "psychological" problem).
> We don't know what the side effects of all these anti-depressent drugs... true, but we DO know the side effects of untreated depression and that is at the very least a 15% suicide rate.
> In addition if you have your first depression treated it can prevent further breakdowns, however if you cycle on and off medication (and I did, I hated taking all those pills) and have subsequent depressive episodes, eventually those episodes have a great chance of increasing to the point where a technically minor disappointment can launch you into a major depressive episode. I think when this happens it must be the time when people who have never had depression think its a character flaw a "wimpy" quality: because it really must look silly to other people, but it is absolutely real to the person suffering. Whether or not they fit into someones arbitrary decision about what "depression" is.Its very true that going on and off antidepressants too frequently, bouncing on and off them, can cause these meds to lose their "punch" and effectiveness. I personally think a fair amount of treatment resistant depressions develop that way.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 10, 2002, at 22:30:41
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 10, 2002, at 22:24:22
> Probably the best book Ive read so far when it comes to the topic of severe depression is Max Fink's "Electroshock: Restoring the Mind." I felt that book did a pretty good job of explaining how Ive felt like at times in my severe depression.
Let me clarify the above. I thought this book did a pretty good, but far from perfect job of describing the symptoms of severe depression. Like I said, I have not read a book yet that really described it correctly. If it was described correctly, it would sound like more of a physical problem than a "mental illness."
Posted by Bob on July 11, 2002, at 0:12:57
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 10, 2002, at 22:24:22
> > In addition if you have your first depression treated it can prevent further breakdowns, however if you cycle on and off medication (and I did, I hated taking all those pills) and have subsequent depressive episodes, eventually those episodes have a great chance of increasing to the point where a technically minor disappointment can launch you into a major depressive episode. I think when this happens it must be the time when people who have never had depression think its a character flaw a "wimpy" quality: because it really must look silly to other people, but it is absolutely real to the person suffering. Whether or not they fit into someones arbitrary decision about what "depression" is.
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> Its very true that going on and off antidepressants too frequently, bouncing on and off them, can cause these meds to lose their "punch" and effectiveness. I personally think a fair amount of treatment resistant depressions develop that way.
--------------------------------------------------Possibly there is some merit to the theory that TRD depressions can develop from med cycling. I wouldn't be one to argue with you, as I've done a great deal of med changing, and have only gotten worse. However, I don't think the patients can necessarily be blamed. I think people often find it very crushing to their spirit and physical feeling of well-being on the meds (I think the thought of enduring the side-effects for the rest of one's life, or at least long-term, is often horrifying for people) and so they go off them, or they try other meds that they pray don't have the unwanted side-effects. It's a harsh sentence to endure these meds for the rest of one's life. The current armamentarium is not very "patient-friendly", and we need to eventually come up with more tolerable treatments. If the treatments were tolerable and effective, people would not be playing musical meds nearly as much. It's only human to try to escape from the unnatural oppressive effects and feelings the meds cause.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 11, 2002, at 0:33:26
In reply to Re: Real Depression » LostBoyinNC1, posted by Bob on July 11, 2002, at 0:12:57
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>
> Possibly there is some merit to the theory that TRD depressions can develop from med cycling.Possibly? I think more than possibly. Its a known fact that repeatedly going on and off the same antidepressant can cause it to lose its effectiveness and its activation. This is especially true if you "bounce" on and off the same AD within a short time frame, say a couple month period of time.
>I wouldn't be one to argue with you, as I've done a great deal of med changing, and have only gotten worse. However, I don't think the patients can necessarily be blamed. I think people often find it very crushing to their spirit and physical feeling of well-being on the meds (I think the thought of enduring the side-effects for the rest of one's life, or at least long-term, is often horrifying for people) and so they go off them, or they try other meds that they pray don't have the unwanted side-effects. It's a harsh sentence to endure these meds for the rest of one's life. The current armamentarium is not very "patient-friendly", and we need to eventually come up with more tolerable treatments. If the treatments were tolerable and effective, people would not be playing musical meds nearly as much. It's only human to try to escape from the unnatural oppressive effects and feelings the meds cause.
I dont agree with you. I think most of the modern class antidepressants have a quite good side effect profile. What bothers me more is having to live in the "hell" of severe clinical depression. Thats ten times worse to me than living with some medication side effects.
Of course, there are a few drug side effects which are truly severe and unacceptable. Such as the EPS/TD movement disorders that atypical anti-psychotics can cause in depressives. Or blood sugar increases from Zyprexa or Seroquel that induces diabetes. Or MAOI hypertensive crisises. These are serious side effects to be avoided totally.
What I dont understand is people who think SSRI type side effects (weight gain, sexual dysfunction) are worse than living with the depression itself. I always come to the conclusion that most of these sorts of individuals dont have very severe depression to make the decision to go off an anti-depressant for what I consider to be trivial side effects.
I guess what Im saying is Id rather be able to sleep decently and be able to concentrate than have some weight gain or delayed orgasm side effects. Off ADs, my sleep and concentration fall apart, as do many other things.
Oddly enough, I find my sex drive increases on antidepressants. What kills my sex drive is untreated severe depression.
Posted by cybercafe on July 11, 2002, at 1:08:05
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 11, 2002, at 0:33:26
> I dont agree with you. I think most of the modern class antidepressants have a quite good side effect profile. What bothers me more is having to live in the "hell" of severe clinical depression. Thats ten times worse to me than living with some medication side effects.
Yeah for sure there are no side effects so bad that I am willing to put up with severe depression for the rest of my life. And that includes movement disorders, .. or even growing a third eye... or if I found out meds took 20 years off my life.... (Discounting the existence of ECT,rTMS,MST, psychosurgery etc of course)...
However... I am sure that when people stop taking their meds they do not believe the symptoms are going to return. Or if they do -- they can't remember how serious they were -- just like when you're depressed it's difficult to remember the happy times in your life...
> Of course, there are a few drug side effects which are truly severe and unacceptable. Such as the EPS/TD movement disorders that atypical anti-psychotics can cause in depressives. Or blood sugar increases from Zyprexa or Seroquel that induces diabetes. Or MAOI hypertensive crisises. These are serious side effects to be avoided totally.
Ummm... I would rather cut out aged cheeses from my diet then have no libido :).... of course there are always augmentation strategies for SSRI users...
... I actually picked up a bit of a tremor from Effexor...
> What I dont understand is people who think SSRI type side effects (weight gain, sexual dysfunction) are worse than living with the depression itself. I always come to the... I can't imagine that.... I think it's more likely they don't think their depression will come back.... now why severe bipolars, psychotic individuals, those with histories of suicide, etc have to dump all of their medication within a day or two... take extreme measures like flushing it down the toilet.... this just doesn't seem like a good idea to me
>conclusion that most of these sorts of individuals dont have very severe depression to make the decision to go off an anti-depressant for what I consider to be trivial side effects.
Yep... ! Or to go take it even further... I have felt sorry for a lot of people who seemed to whine like they had serious problems... but when you offer them advice they just seem totally apathetic... like "yeah maybe i'll try that... or ... maybe i'll just do without medication... " DO WITHOUT MEDICATION?? ... the reason i'm on medication is because the only other option for me is suicide (or ECT etc etc)....
... i just wish i had started Parnate sooner... i love this med :)
> I guess what Im saying is Id rather be able to sleep decently and be able to concentrate than have some weight gain or delayed orgasm side effects. Off ADs, my sleep and concentration fall apart, as do many other things.actually sleep and concentration are secondary to relieving what i would call "unbearable suffering"...
.. that is why i am quite happy when i get a 20% response from a med... sure my life might still be in shambles... but at least i can go on ...
> Oddly enough, I find my sex drive increases on antidepressants. What kills my sex drive is untreated severe depression.... this coming from another Parnate user of course :)
Posted by Bob on July 11, 2002, at 10:43:38
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by cybercafe on July 11, 2002, at 1:08:05
> > I dont agree with you. I think most of the modern class antidepressants have a quite good side effect profile. What bothers me more is having to live in the "hell" of severe clinical depression. Thats ten times worse to me than living with some medication side effects.
-----The fact that, for you, the side effects don't bother you enough to stop the meds says nothing about other people. I've seen more than one article stating that antidepressants have worse side-effects than most prescription meds, save for maybe AIDS and chemo meds. That doesn't sound "good" to me.
-----> Yeah for sure there are no side effects so bad that I am willing to put up with severe depression for the rest of my life. And that includes movement disorders, .. or even growing a third eye... or if I found out meds took 20 years off my life.... (Discounting the existence of ECT,rTMS,MST, psychosurgery etc of course)...
-----You are talking about side effects that pose a significant and recognizable danger to physical health. I'm referring to side effects that reduce quality of life over the long term. Remember, I was trying to explain why I think people stop taking their meds, even when they're "working" so to speak.
>
> However... I am sure that when people stop taking their meds they do not believe the symptoms are going to return. Or if they do -- they can't remember how serious they were -- just like when you're depressed it's difficult to remember the happy times in your life...
-----Yes, in a way I believe you are correct. I also think that what happens in many cases is, people start feeling better psychologically, and then they are left with mainly the side effects as problems in their life. They may have come to terms with the fact that they need some sort of med, but they figure there MUST be something better out there than what they're taking.
-----
>
> > Of course, there are a few drug side effects which are truly severe and unacceptable. Such as the EPS/TD movement disorders that atypical anti-psychotics can cause in depressives. Or blood sugar increases from Zyprexa or Seroquel that induces diabetes. Or MAOI hypertensive crisises. These are serious side effects to be avoided totally.
-----Again, you are referring to health destroying side effects, not quality of life side effects. How about chronic constipation, weight gain on the order of 10% or greater, reduced or eradicated libido and ability to orgasm, constant sweating, hypersomnia, tiredness and fatigue, apathy, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc?
----->
>
> Ummm... I would rather cut out aged cheeses from my diet then have no libido :)
-----Sounds like Parnate is working wonders for you. What if (and God forbid) it didn't work for you any longer, and you had to try Nardil, or the host of other antidepressants, where you would have to cut out aged cheeses (and other things also) yet you didn't have a libido and gained significant weight, and were dizzy and weak all the time?
-----
> > What I dont understand is people who think SSRI type side effects (weight gain, sexual dysfunction) are worse than living with the depression itself. I always come to the
>
> ... I can't imagine that.... I think it's more likely they don't think their depression will come back.... now why severe bipolars, psychotic individuals, those with histories of suicide, etc have to dump all of their medication within a day or two... take extreme measures like flushing it down the toilet.... this just doesn't seem like a good idea to me
-----Well, it probably doesn't seem like a good idea because it isn't. However, one hallmark of mental illness is impaired judgement and irrationality. BTW, these diseases run the spectrum from minor disaffectation to full blown, "I'm going to commit suicide in the next 10 minutes" type depression. That's why many people aren't willing to put up with the way the meds make them feel. They have dysfunctionalities in their lives that they are trying to improve upon, but are not necessariy severely suicidal or physically incapacitated. Unfortunately, the same medecines are used for all conditions.
----->
>
> >conclusion that most of these sorts of individuals dont have very severe depression to make the decision to go off an anti-depressant for what I consider to be trivial side effects.
-----You may consider them trivial, but (if not most) don't. I don't hear very many people on an AD claiming that they love taking the drug and it is practically transparent for them. I just don't hear it. The side effects may seem trivial for you because if you don't take the med you know you will be facing suicide. Also you may be getting a pretty decent response from the meds. Many people don't.
----->
>
> Yep... ! Or to go take it even further... I have felt sorry for a lot of people who seemed to whine like they had serious problems... but when you offer them advice they just seem totally apathetic... like "yeah maybe i'll try that... or ... maybe i'll just do without medication... " DO WITHOUT MEDICATION?? ... the reason i'm on medication is because the only other option for me is suicide (or ECT etc etc)....
-----Yes, but that is not the case for everybody. Some people have mental problems that aren't necessarily causing suicidality, but are impairing their quality of life. It's a trade off that's as unique as the person taking the meds. No two illnesses are the same.
-----
>
> ... i just wish i had started Parnate sooner... i love this med :)
-----I'm glad to hear that med is working so well for you, and I hope it continues to help you.
-----
>
> .. that is why i am quite happy when i get a 20% response from a med... sure my life might still be in shambles... but at least i can go on ...
-----If you are happy with 20% response to meds, then you have obviously have given up on getting significantly better. I think the public expectation for mental health treatment is much, much higher than that. Progress has to be made.
-----
>
>
>
> > Oddly enough, I find my sex drive increases on antidepressants. What kills my sex drive is untreated severe depression.
-----I think having you sex drive increase on antidepressants definitely puts you in the minority.
-----
>
> ... this coming from another Parnate user of course :)
Posted by Geezer on July 11, 2002, at 10:56:27
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 10, 2002, at 22:24:22
Hi LostBoy,
Not only do I agree with what you said I wish I could have said it as well.
I get very angry when someone intellectualize this illness. As soon as I hear "working on issues, relationships, recognizing triggers, blah, blah, blah" my blood pressure kicks up a notch. Psychology has nothing to do with real heavy duty depression (be it recurrent major depression or the bipolar version). As an illness it is much closer to a "slow rolling seizure disorder" where the intervals and severity of episodes may be to some degree controlled with medication. I have given up on any hopes of the lay public understanding this but I do resent the current theory, by the pdocs and tdocs, that the best treatment for real depression is the combination of drugs and cognative therapy.
If a doctor had chosen to give me the HONEST FACTS about this illness when I was very young his message would heve been brief and to the point. "From this day forward there will be times when your life will be a living hell. You will be faced with a 15% chance of killing yourself and all the talking in the world won't change a thing. Take your meds and do the best you can".
Thanks for your post.
Geezer
Posted by waterlily on July 11, 2002, at 13:58:01
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on July 10, 2002, at 22:24:22
> One thing that always gets on my nerves is when I read stuff about depression where its intellectualized. Like the person tries to read poetry or make their illness into an "issues" kind of thing. Mental illness has been intellectualized too much, largely because of the way its thought of by lay people (its just a "psychological" problem).
I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. I get depression even when I'm on medication, and I end up blaming myself for it which makes it even worse. Even though I know intellectually that I have a hereditary depression (I'm third generation, my daughter is fourth), I still keep thinking that if I wasn't so week I would be able to shake this off. To this, my therapist asks "What makes you think that?" She sees this thing as a disease too and tries her best to get me to accept that, but I have a hard time internalizing it. I do defend the use of antidepressants when the subject comes up. My co-worker started talking about how too many people take antidepressants and that all you need to do is go shopping to shake depression. I just told her that you cannot truly understand major depression until you've suffered from it. Case closed.
Posted by Bob on July 11, 2002, at 15:49:20
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by Geezer on July 11, 2002, at 10:56:27
> Hi LostBoy,
>
> Not only do I agree with what you said I wish I could have said it as well.
>
> I get very angry when someone intellectualize this illness. As soon as I hear "working on issues, relationships, recognizing triggers, blah, blah, blah" my blood pressure kicks up a notch. Psychology has nothing to do with real heavy duty depression (be it recurrent major depression or the bipolar version). As an illness it is much closer to a "slow rolling seizure disorder" where the intervals and severity of episodes may be to some degree controlled with medication. I have given up on any hopes of the lay public understanding this but I do resent the current theory, by the pdocs and tdocs, that the best treatment for real depression is the combination of drugs and cognative therapy.
>
> If a doctor had chosen to give me the HONEST FACTS about this illness when I was very young his message would heve been brief and to the point. "From this day forward there will be times when your life will be a living hell. You will be faced with a 15% chance of killing yourself and all the talking in the world won't change a thing. Take your meds and do the best you can".
>
> Thanks for your post.
>
> GeezerWell... now I'll chime in and say that I wish I had posted what YOU just said. Very, very well put. Especially that last paragraph, as a simple, straightforward summation of our condition. Everybody always harps on me getting therapy, which I do. However, I really don't think it has ever provided an ounce of help. For me, I've only seen changes with meds. Therapy starts leading to self-blame for your condition. I honestly believe that.
BTW, FWIW, if the doctor told people what you posted in your last paragraph there, it would cause a lot of up front consternation. They would never do that obviously. Besides, many people are afraid of the truth.
Posted by cybercafe on July 11, 2002, at 17:34:16
In reply to Re: Real Depression, posted by Geezer on July 11, 2002, at 10:56:27
> I get very angry when someone intellectualize this illness. As soon as I hear "working on issues, relationships, recognizing triggers, blah, blah, blah" my blood pressure kicks up a notch. Psychology has nothing to do with real heavy duty depression (be it recurrent major depression or the bipolar version). As an illness it is much closer to a "slow rolling seizure disorder" where the intervals and severity of episodes may be to some degree controlled with medication. I have given up on any hopes of the lay public understanding this but I do resent the current theory, by the pdocs and tdocs, that the best treatment for real depression is the combination of drugs and cognative therapy.
Yeah I agree with you totally except I would add that having someone to talk to can really help -- at least in more reactive/vegetative/atypical depressions (perhaps not retarded/melancholic/typical depressions)....
... I consider myself really smart + educated + wise and insightful... and used to think psychology probably isn't necessary for myself...... however... i was wrong ;)
... i think anything that breaks social isolation... especially if it is directed towards positive thinking can help in many cases...
.. but yes i totally agree there is NO WAY psychotherapy alone would allow for a 100% recovery.... i mean i would suspect many people would have difficulty getting to a psychotherapist without a decent med ....
... same for anxiety + agitation in my case ...
.. it helps... but 100% recovery? ... i can "face my fears" time and time again and they are still not reduced...... in fact i remember reading that clozapine is thought to decrease suicidality in psychotics by the break in social isolation you get from having weekly blood checks .... as well as relieve of negative symptoms, of course...
>
> If a doctor had chosen to give me the HONEST FACTS about this illness when I was very young his message would heve been brief and to the point. "From this day forward there will be times when your life will be a living hell. You will be faced with a 15% chance of killing yourself and all the talking in the world won't change a thing. Take your meds and do the best you can".a pleasure speaking with you gents ;)
cybercafe
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