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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by jerrympls on May 13, 2006, at 17:29:47
In reply to To: LOOPS, posted by Glydin on May 12, 2006, at 21:41:33
> > Glydin - I would really like to hear about your experiences with magnesium - you say it gave you pvps as well? What happened?
>
>
> ~~~ Hi LOOPS,
>
> Sorry to hear of your problems with Mag. Yes, I had PVC's along with inverted T waves and some other rhythm disturbances that were not consistent but showed up over a 12 hour monitoring time. It's not definately clear whether it was the diarrhea that messed up my electrolytes or a direct action of the Mag or a combo. At the time, my Mag level was not extremely elevated but measuring serum Mag levels doesn't always reflect what the intracellular level actually is and therefore the real action or impact. My K+ level was extremely low and that in and of itself can play havoc with the heart's electrical system.
>
> As far as how I felt, I did experience chest "flutters" related my heart rate. Of course, I was lightheaded as heck and generally felt awful. My co-workers reported me pale as a ghost. I got hooked up a heart rate monitor and it scared the bejeez out of everyone and they carted me off the the ER.
>
> It was a scary and unexpected experience from trying to use a mineral supplementation. It would seem such a benign endeavor with fairly low risk of untoward effects. It wasn't for me.
>
> Again, I'm sorry for your difficulties with it.
>
> Take care,
> Glydin
>
>I think it's important to remember that the use of vitamin & mineral supplements come with certain dosage windows, side effects, interactions and other cautions just as prescription medications do. Many people think since vitamins, etc are not "drugs" that they are harmless. One can easily take too much of a vitamin or mineral supplement causing toxic reactions and/or serious interactions when taken with prescription medications or herbal supplements. Also, for most supplements there is a therapeutic window. One should always talk to his/her doctor before starting any supplements.
Jerry
Posted by Glydin on May 13, 2006, at 17:48:18
In reply to Re: To: LOOPS » Glydin, posted by jerrympls on May 13, 2006, at 17:29:47
~~~ Exactly and Absolutely to your post.
I think the problem may be with the megadosing - which may be fine for some but not for others. I'm not dissing the use of alternative methods or substances. What I find is folks who can be very careful and quite open to the untoward effects of RX meds may not have the same attitude when it comes to substance that are not RX. I don't see that here as much as I see it in RL. It boils down to making as good as possible decisions and being open to assessment, as time goes on, to determine if whatever the treatment being undertaken is a good idea for oneself versus how it is for another individual.
Posted by jerrympls on May 13, 2006, at 17:59:16
In reply to Re: » jerrympls, posted by Glydin on May 13, 2006, at 17:48:18
> ~~~ Exactly and Absolutely to your post.
>
> I think the problem may be with the megadosing - which may be fine for some but not for others. I'm not dissing the use of alternative methods or substances. What I find is folks who can be very careful and quite open to the untoward effects of RX meds may not have the same attitude when it comes to substance that are not RX. I don't see that here as much as I see it in RL. It boils down to making as good as possible decisions and being open to assessment, as time goes on, to determine if whatever the treatment being undertaken is a good idea for oneself versus how it is for another individual.
I agree. I used to dismiss vitamin/mineral supplements as having the same effects as a sugar pill - but after starting magnesium, taurine and L-tryptophan my views were quickly dismissed. In fact, I took a bunch of L-tryptophan one night and experienced minor - but uncofortable - serotonin syndrome effects = dangerous. Also, when I ran of the magnesium taurate I was taking I had severe anxiety and depression rebound (magnesium taurate has been a "miracle" supplement for my anxiety and treatment-resistant depression).Luckily I'm in contact with a good friend who is a chemist and knows everything about supplementation and has helped guide me while starting new supplements. He's been VERY good at reminding me that just because they're supplements doesn't mean they can't be harmful or used in excess. (Thanks Larry!!)
Jerry
Posted by Glydin on May 13, 2006, at 18:55:33
In reply to Re: » Glydin, posted by jerrympls on May 13, 2006, at 17:59:16
I remember your posts over time and I know you have had some tough times and been in some rough places. I am thrilled for you, that you have found a treatment that is working for you and you sound as if life is so very much better for you. That is Wonderful -- it's what we all deserve. While my answer indeed turned out to be RX chemical based, there is NOTHING in this world that can compare to the feeling of wellbeing.
I'm very happy for you.
Posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2006, at 18:56:27
In reply to Re: » Glydin, posted by jerrympls on May 13, 2006, at 17:59:16
I get all my supplements at the VitamShoppe. Goggle it you can order online. I'm lucky to have one here and they guide me on how much and what to take. I take the Magnsium Citrate it helps with elimination too. And the B's and C's are water soluble you pee out with your body doesn't need. And they products are cheap I like their protein whey powder. Love Phillipa
Posted by LOOPS on May 13, 2006, at 19:33:38
In reply to Re:, posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2006, at 18:56:27
Glydin -
did you find anything very useful in your quest with vitamins etc?
I can't remember if you said, but do you still take magnesium (albeit a smaller dose?) - or do you take something like a cal-mag formulation?
Right now I'm actually still taking dolomite believe it or not! I'm still convinced magnesium could be very helpful to me, but I think I need calcium too (which is the standard in supplementing magnesium I think). I think there are some people like Jerry who really do need just magnesium. I read on the acu-cell site how some people seem to retain more calcium than magnesium and vice versa, so needs are completely different.
I guess it depends on genes, lifestyle, elimination etc. I'm not giving up on it yet though - but mineral balance is an odd thing. So for now I will keep taking both cal and mag and see what happens. I have a feeling I need slightly more mag than cal in the long run, but not by much.
Take care
Loops
Posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2006, at 19:53:29
In reply to Re:, posted by LOOPS on May 13, 2006, at 19:33:38
Loops I didn't mention all the vitamins I take as I take CA MG too. l500mg for post menopausal women. Omege 3's, flax seed oil you refridgerate recommended to me by my opthamologist for cataracts and dry eyes. I also take a new formulation for anxiety called theanine serene by Source Naturals. The vitamin shoppe sells all brands . They have a computer that looks up what you need. They have a silicon based one which helps with your hair. You try something and if it doesn't work don't buy it again. Love Phillipa Ps I stay away from herbs too many dangerous ones
Posted by Glydin on May 13, 2006, at 22:03:51
In reply to Re:, posted by LOOPS on May 13, 2006, at 19:33:38
> Glydin -
>
> did you find anything very useful in your quest with vitamins etc?~~~ Hi LOOPS,
Actually no - nothing I can use consistently.
Sometimes, I think I'm a physiological weirdo.... okay, maybe, I KNOW that. (Smile) Folks take cupfulls of stuff and do fine. Multivits and minerals, supplements make me feel awful.I seem to have strange effects with everything "addition". I'm not sure if I do it to myself (entirely possible) or if I can't find anything that the fillers aren't an issue or what it is. Not long ago I did try a Cal Mag formulation to combat some muscle aches and for PMS "fun" times. No big events this time but I had difficulty with initial tolerance and am unable to get through the getting through to see if it would improve. In terms of basic soundness of what my body might need, I kinda worry as my diet isn't the best, but I feel better then I'm taking only on my RX.
I hope you find a good mix for you.
Best,
Glydin
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 9:32:50
In reply to Oh no!!, posted by LOOPS on May 12, 2006, at 17:03:19
> After one (or was it more?) weeks of just doing magnesium I started getting heart palpitations and my insomnia came back full force. One night the palps got so bad I thought I was going to die. Anyone else get this from magnesium?
Only people who have problems with their parathyroid hormone level or responsivity. I really think you should see a doctor, and get your electrolytes and urinalysis done. And PTH level.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 9:40:59
In reply to Re: To: LOOPS, posted by LOOPS on May 13, 2006, at 9:48:48
> Any more ideas? I really want this to work for me! I spent so much money on different supplements and don't want to be back at the start again.
>
> Thanks
>
> LoopsActually, another thing occurred to me. Hypochlorhydria or achlorhydria, low or no stomach acid. Didn't you have a B12 problem, once upon a time?
In any case, poor digestion of fats is the result, and calcium and magnesium require fat to bind to the divalent cation pumps in the gut.
Helicobacter pylori infection can do this, too.
You end up with malnutrition, despite even consuming an excellent diet. Intake is not the same as uptake.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 9:44:55
In reply to Re:, posted by LOOPS on May 13, 2006, at 19:33:38
> I guess it depends on genes, lifestyle, elimination etc. I'm not giving up on it yet though - but mineral balance is an odd thing. So for now I will keep taking both cal and mag and see what happens. I have a feeling I need slightly more mag than cal in the long run, but not by much.
>
> Take care
>
> LoopsIf you're taking dolomite, you're crunching your stomach acid even further, if you have a tendency to produce too little in the first place. Dolomite is an antacid. See my last post to you.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 9:45:35
In reply to Re: » Glydin, posted by jerrympls on May 13, 2006, at 17:59:16
> Luckily I'm in contact with a good friend who is a chemist and knows everything about supplementation and has helped guide me while starting new supplements. He's been VERY good at reminding me that just because they're supplements doesn't mean they can't be harmful or used in excess. (Thanks Larry!!)
>
> Jerry
Thanks, Jerr.I'll get to your emails eventually.
Lar
Posted by LOOPS on May 24, 2006, at 12:45:57
In reply to Re: » jerrympls, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 9:45:35
Dolomite is an antacid? Ok - better not take that then.
I don't have any digestive problems, and my diet is high in fat (low-carb). I eat nuts, greens, most low-carb veggies, some cheese, butter, cream,lard, meat, fish and before tennis some carbs in the form of bananas or chocolate. I would say my digestion has improved about a bajillion since going low-carb.
If I had B12 issues before from being vegan (did that like 3 years ago) they have most certainly been resolved now as I eat a lot of animal products.
I can only think it must be the Ca:Mg balance. I've seen a couple of more absorbable supplements out there - one is a 1:1 cal/mag citrate, and the other is 2:1 cal/mag made up of different chelates. However I have a big pot full of magnesium malate, so maybe I should just buy a low-dose calcium supplement and take that in addition.
Loops
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 16:53:21
In reply to Re:, posted by LOOPS on May 24, 2006, at 12:45:57
> Dolomite is an antacid? Ok - better not take that then.
Absolutely. That's what makes up most of the antacid capacity in Tums. Carbonate ion uses up one acid to make bicarbonate. Bicarbonate uses up one more to become free CO2. You're down two acid molecules for every atom of calcium or magnesium, and you burp.
> I don't have any digestive problems, and my diet is high in fat (low-carb). I eat nuts, greens, most low-carb veggies, some cheese, butter, cream,lard, meat, fish and before tennis some carbs in the form of bananas or chocolate. I would say my digestion has improved about a bajillion since going low-carb.
>
> If I had B12 issues before from being vegan (did that like 3 years ago) they have most certainly been resolved now as I eat a lot of animal products.Did you ever supplement B12? B12 deficiency is one of those vicious circles. Being B12 deficient means you can't produce stomach acid. Being unable to produce stomach acid means you can't free B12 from food, and you just poop it out, even if there is a goodly amount in your diet. The only solution, if someone has gotten to that point, is megadose oral (mg doses, hundreds of times the RDA), or intramuscular injection. A B12 shot. Preferably, a series of shots.
As I said, this can be exacerbated by Helicobacter, which also produces hypochlorhydria by infecting the acid pumps.
> I can only think it must be the Ca:Mg balance. I've seen a couple of more absorbable supplements out there - one is a 1:1 cal/mag citrate, and the other is 2:1 cal/mag made up of different chelates. However I have a big pot full of magnesium malate, so maybe I should just buy a low-dose calcium supplement and take that in addition.
>
> LoopsAny of those is fine.
Lar
Posted by LOOPS on May 26, 2006, at 9:34:35
In reply to Re: » LOOPS, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 16:53:21
Hi -
well I've taken a multi-vitamin and sometimes extra B complex for the past 5 years. My recent multi I actually changed because it had absolutely huge amounts of B12 in it and smaller amounts of the other ones. I'm prone to high histamine which I think B12 raises, and I'm also pretty sure B12 is one of those B vits that increases my anxiety. I do better with higher B1 and B3, and lower amounts of the others.
Well I never got burping from the dolomite - but then my stomach seems to be made from steel as I can chew up fish oil caps on an empty stomach and not get any burping etc.
Have recently discovered that calcium makes me constipated, even with magnesium thrown in.
Loops
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 26, 2006, at 10:08:06
In reply to Re:, posted by LOOPS on May 26, 2006, at 9:34:35
> Well I never got burping from the dolomite - but then my stomach seems to be made from steel as I can chew up fish oil caps on an empty stomach and not get any burping etc.
I think you have figured it out. Fish oil on an empty stomach should give you rancid fish burps. If you don't get those, your stomach isn't acid enough.
Get some betaine hydrochloride. This time, not trimethylglycine freebase. The hydrochloride salt. Take as directed on the bottle, but the maximum suggested dose.
And bromelain. Pineapple enzymes that cleave proteins. Without sufficient acid, your own stomach enzymes can't work. Your stomach secretes pepsinogen, not pepsin. Without acid, it can't even start working. That's how your stomach won't digest itself. The enzymes only work in a highly acid environment.
Get some hydrolyzed protein. Whey protein, I would suggest, unless you are sensitive to dairy. Make sure it's hydrolyzed, not just whey powder. Your body cannot absorb proteins properly, because of the lack of acid. Hydrolyzed whey protein is pre-digested.
You may start feeling better right away, with these changes. I pray it is so.
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on May 26, 2006, at 16:07:49
In reply to Re: » LOOPS, posted by Larry Hoover on May 26, 2006, at 10:08:06
Lar I thought B complex was good for anxiety and helped to calm you? Love Phillipa
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2006, at 8:35:58
In reply to Re: » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on May 26, 2006, at 16:07:49
> Lar I thought B complex was good for anxiety and helped to calm you? Love Phillipa
There is no simple rule that covers all people in all situations. B-complex promotes resiliency to stress. You are less likely to feel overwhelmed. However, some of the B-vitamins are stimulating. Stimulation can be bad, if your body shifts into anxiety.
Anybody who has a chronic anxiety condition will have an enhanced need for B-vitamins. They're best used as a B-complex, a balanced blend containing all of them.
But don't forget, niacinamide is a form of vitamin B3, and it is calming. The B-complex might not be, because of counter-balancing stimulation. But there's nothing keeping you from adding extra niacinamide to calm things down again. Really, when I get wired, I take niacinamide 500 mg. It's never let me down, yet.
It also helps with hayfever/asthma. So much so, that I know I need niacinamide when my allergy symptoms exceed the capacity of my OTC antihistamine. When I do medicate for that reason, then I also notice the calming effect. It just hadn't reached my conscious mind that I was getting anxious. The allergy symptoms often precede my awareness of my anxiety.
Lar
Posted by LOOPS on May 31, 2006, at 12:35:26
In reply to Re: B-complex » Phillipa, posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2006, at 8:35:58
Hi -
well niacinamide actually made my allergies worse - I think it exacerbated my eczema and didn't help my hayfever. Also when I used to take it it would calm me down but also make me very depressed and antisocial - a bit like taking 5htp for more than one dose in a row. But that's just me!
I found B1 very useful though, and occasional B6 - the rest of the B vits I find useful in smallish doses - nothing above 10mg at a time.
YMMV of course!
Loops
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2006, at 16:08:09
In reply to Re: B-complex, posted by LOOPS on May 31, 2006, at 12:35:26
> Hi -
>
> well niacinamide actually made my allergies worse - I think it exacerbated my eczema and didn't help my hayfever. Also when I used to take it it would calm me down but also make me very depressed and antisocial - a bit like taking 5htp for more than one dose in a row. But that's just me!You know, if we had signature files here, mine would have to include a disclaimer. Like, this is how things are kind of sort of supposed to work, but anything is possible, and pay attention, dude!
I can feel niacinamide work, just like the literature said it ought to. It was must first real A-hah! substance. It takes 20 minutes for the niacinamide to kick in, and I'm golden.
The enzyme that switches niacin to niacinamide goes in both directions. It doesn't know front from back. Whichever "side" of the enzyme has more "stuff" available to it, becomes the input side. The product is produced until the enzyme is in a balanced concentration of reactants and products.
What I'm saying is, you may be one of those lucky people who turns niacinamide straight into niacin, which aggravates the situation that is trying to be manipulated the other direction.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2006, at 17:11:17
In reply to Re: B-complex, posted by LOOPS on May 31, 2006, at 12:35:26
> Hi -
>
> well niacinamide actually made my allergies worse - I think it exacerbated my eczema and didn't help my hayfever. Also when I used to take it it would calm me down but also make me very depressed and antisocial - a bit like taking 5htp for more than one dose in a row. But that's just me!
>
> I found B1 very useful though, and occasional B6 - the rest of the B vits I find useful in smallish doses - nothing above 10mg at a time.
>
> YMMV of course!
>
> LoopsDid you ever try Enada NADH?
Lar
Posted by LOOPS on June 1, 2006, at 9:06:12
In reply to Enada » LOOPS, posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2006, at 17:11:17
yes!
I took ENADA for about a week 3 years ago. However at the time I was just starting to get effects from sjw so was already a little off balance. I remember it kind of heightened the whole sjw experience for me - made me very energetic. However I think I got burnt out on both so ditched the ENADA. Also my insomnia was getting really bad - but I get this with sjw anyway.
As a side-note I have multiple bad habits - like I chew nicorette all day (I'm now addicted to the gum) and I still drink wine in the evenings. The only thing I've really managed to do is cut the wine down (due to low-carbing) - because more than 2 glasses and I'm really really sleepy and just go to bed. This is great, but I still drink every night, and sometimes at the weekend I drink more than two glasses. I'm pretty convinced this kind of addiction has led me to having deficiencies in just about everything - and I don't believe they know EVERYTHING to put in multivitamins. The whole magnesium thing is a good example. I didn't think for years that it is the one thing there is NEVER very much of in a bottle of vits - and guess what - it is depleted by smoking (prob too much nicotine as well from gum) and drinking alcohol etc.
I think I'm gradually getting better with things now - for one thing I no longer have to restrict calories to keep my weight down which means more nutrition, and also I have found some things very useful in the vitamin parade:
I love:
mag/ (balanced with calcium no more problems - sleeping like a log)
vitamin C balanced with zinc
vitamin E seems to help with insomnia
cod liver oil - I almost get 'high' off taking enough vitamin D in the Winter here - enough seems to be around the 1000IU mark for me but I get a lot of sun in the Summer
low-dose Bs as in Berrocca plus + occasional high dose B1 and B6
low-dose fish oil - good but I actually think my brain prefers the fish itself.
Melatonin - coupled with mag/cal 1.5mg very helpful.
Ginseng - give me more and more of the good quality stuff. Really seems to balance me out and even lift my mood a little. I like it because it seems to be a true adaptogen (other ones like Rhodiola seem to mess me up rather than help me adapt lol).That's it really these days. Oh sorry - there I go again having a bit of a ramble about myself. I don't know how I got onto that really!
So the ENADA was ok but I overdid it - maybe I could still use it occasionally. It was oddly calming and energizing at the same time I seem to remember - an effect I like.
Loops
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2006, at 10:13:50
In reply to Re: Enada, posted by LOOPS on June 1, 2006, at 9:06:12
> yes!
You need some. Methinks.
> The only thing I've really managed to do is cut the wine down (due to low-carbing) - because more than 2 glasses and I'm really really sleepy and just go to bed.
Low carbing.
If I invented a diet, would people follow it? Maybe that's what I should do. Write a diet book.
I'll call it the Throw Those Diet Books in the Trash Diet. It has one page. Guess what it tells you to do? [Hint: It's printed on recycleable paper.]
I think it is fine to avoid pure sugars, and bleached starches. But beyond that, moderation. Unless you're treating/managing specific symptoms. That's a whole different kettle of turnips from "the size 6 diet".
> This is great, but I still drink every night, and sometimes at the weekend I drink more than two glasses. I'm pretty convinced this kind of addiction has led me to having deficiencies in just about everything - and I don't believe they know EVERYTHING to put in multivitamins.
You know, all those other things we've been talking about take on a whole new light. Guess who would feel a whole lot better if she cut down on the ethanol intake? Trying to fix *that* with vitamins is a waste of time, you know.
> The whole magnesium thing is a good example. I didn't think for years that it is the one thing there is NEVER very much of in a bottle of vits - and guess what - it is depleted by smoking (prob too much nicotine as well from gum) and drinking alcohol etc.
Uh-huh. So, your requirement is increased, beyond your innate needs. You go into functional deficiencies, despite excellent diet, and increased supplementation.
> I think I'm gradually getting better with things now - for one thing I no longer have to restrict calories to keep my weight downSee earlier comment.
> which means more nutrition, and also I have found some things very useful in the vitamin parade:
>
> I love:
>
> mag/ (balanced with calcium no more problems - sleeping like a log)
> vitamin C balanced with zinc
> vitamin E seems to help with insomnia
> cod liver oil - I almost get 'high' off taking enough vitamin D in the Winter here - enough seems to be around the 1000IU mark for me but I get a lot of sun in the Summer
> low-dose Bs as in Berrocca plus + occasional high dose B1 and B6
> low-dose fish oil - good but I actually think my brain prefers the fish itself.Most people should simply eat more fish. But people like fish oil. Or something.
> Melatonin - coupled with mag/cal 1.5mg very helpful.
> Ginseng - give me more and more of the good quality stuff. Really seems to balance me out and even lift my mood a little. I like it because it seems to be a true adaptogen (other ones like Rhodiola seem to mess me up rather than help me adapt lol).Your adaptogen is my disruptogen, etc.
You have to do experiments. Reading labels only takes you so far. Reading labels helps you form the hypothesis. Experimentation is hypothesis testing.
> That's it really these days. Oh sorry - there I go again having a bit of a ramble about myself. I don't know how I got onto that really!I think it's about time. You've been leaving out some important details. ;-)
> So the ENADA was ok but I overdid it - maybe I could still use it occasionally. It was oddly calming and energizing at the same time I seem to remember - an effect I like.
>
> LoopsCalming and energizing at the same time, and you wonder if you "could" use it "occasionally"? Hmmmm. Let me think about that.
I'm exhausted, and I hope my sense of humour is coming through. I do not mean to be rude, at all. I just am nearly stupid with fatigue. So, please, some tolerance.
You said niacinamide makes you wired, if I recall. I can't speak to the influence of alcohol on that. But, the reason I asked about Enada is what Enada is. Nicotinamide is an older trivial name for what we tend now to call niacinamide. And, Enada is nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide. The H means reduced. Don't worry about that bit. The rest is what matters.
If your individual niacin equilibrium is such that it shunts niacinamide towards niacin instead of towards NADH, then your mitochondria are going to suffer. If your mitochondria suffer, you suffer. It's just that simple.
My personal recommendation to you, other than all the others I've been making, is to focus on getting a solid source of alphalipoic acid into you. You already feel the vitamin C and E. You will feel the alphalipoic acid, also.
You may be very sensitive to NADH. I found that I tolerated it much better with betaine. You may recall I also suggested that substance (as the hydrochloride) to you for your hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid). That betaine will go on to help with this other thing. The B12 also fits into this other, mitochondrial thing. It will help your stomach, and your energy.
I really don't think you can start to feel better, though, until your ethanol goes to zero. Or something close to it. If you crave the alcohol, get some taurine.
You're very much like me, biochemically. That's what I think. I feel very familiar with this pattern.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2006, at 12:13:33
In reply to Re: Enada, posted by LOOPS on June 1, 2006, at 9:06:12
I just found this quotation on wiki: "Because of the liver stress associated with heavy alcohol consumption, regular drinkers and alcoholics may experience antabuse-like reactions with pharmacologic levels of niacin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin
Not referenced, unfortunately.
If so, then very little niacinamide (perhaps less than 50 mg), taken as a pure substance, would be sufficient to invoke that outcome.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2006, at 16:55:26
In reply to Re: Enada P.S. » LOOPS, posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2006, at 12:13:33
> If so, then very little niacinamide (perhaps less than 50 mg), taken as a pure substance, would be sufficient to invoke that outcome.
>
> LarCould conceivably be sufficient....
I shouldn't post right now.
Lar
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