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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 118. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by zana on November 24, 2009, at 16:29:21
A Great Article on Exercise!
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/18/phys-ed-wh
y-exercise-makes-you-less-anxious/?emc=eta1
Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on November 24, 2009, at 22:41:57
In reply to A great article on exercise, posted by zana on November 24, 2009, at 16:29:21
Excellent article, Zana. Thanks!!
Posted by morganator on November 24, 2009, at 23:24:24
In reply to Re: A great article on exercise, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on November 24, 2009, at 22:41:57
> Excellent article, Zana. Thanks!!
I second that!
Posted by SLS on November 24, 2009, at 23:58:04
In reply to A great article on exercise, posted by zana on November 24, 2009, at 16:29:21
These investigations demonstrate prophylaxis, which is great, but they were not designed to study remediation. So, I guess the next step is to test how exercise affects rodents that have already been made to be depressed experimentally, either genetically or behaviorally.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on November 25, 2009, at 11:09:48
In reply to Re: A great article on exercise, posted by SLS on November 24, 2009, at 23:58:04
I couldn't get the article to open but know that at night when I excercise seriously I'm a different person. I wish I was a morning person and could excercise then. If you read a morning noon post of mine totally different at night after the excercise. Thanks Zana will try to access article later again. Love Phillipa
Posted by mtdewcmu on November 26, 2009, at 11:56:58
In reply to Re: A great article on exercise, posted by Phillipa on November 25, 2009, at 11:09:48
I am skeptical that exercise has any benefit for mood or anxiety beyond a placebo effect. All of the studies I have seen promoting the idea that exercise benefits mood have been flawed. In my personal experience, I started exercising during one of the worst depressive episodes of my life, and if anything I got worse.
The flaw in this study is that rats will exercise spontaneously when given the chance. Keeping rats confined in cages without the opportunity to run constitutes a stressor, so you would expect the rats that have been artificially prevented from running to look more anxious by any measure.
When you tell people that exercise will help cure anxiety, you are talking about exercise as a specific intervention, i.e. something that they would not do if they had not been told. I argue that forcing yourself to exercise when you don't feel like it constitutes a source of stress, not a relief of it. This is why people generally dislike manual labor.
In periods of human history when manual labor was more the norm, rather than the exception, I doubt that anyone would prescribe more of it to improve mood. I think that people in those periods would have favored relaxation and relief from physical work as a way to lift mood. The idea that fruitless physical exertion is good for what ails you is a conceit of the modern age, I think.
Posted by morganator on November 26, 2009, at 20:19:42
In reply to I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by mtdewcmu on November 26, 2009, at 11:56:58
Good therapeutic exercise and manual labor are two different things.
Whether it gives to a significant boost in mood or not, you cannot deny the health benefits. So, why not exercise??? Unless you don't want to be healthy. The best exercise is interval training like they do in spinning classes. This type of exercise is best for your heart and lungs.
Exercise vigorously and properly for 30 to 40(maybe longer if you are including weight training) mins 4 to 5 days a week for 6 weeks and stretch your whole body properly for 10 to 20 mins after your workout, then come back and tell me that you think exercise has a placebo effect.
Posted by Phillipa on November 26, 2009, at 22:53:05
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by morganator on November 26, 2009, at 20:19:42
Excercise is the only thing that boosts my mood. Must ride bike daily up and down hills six miles. Was a runner but older now and bad back never depression or anxiety when runing always got the runner's high. Weight training not crazy about so don't force that on myself anymore. Love Phillipa
Posted by mtdewcmu on November 26, 2009, at 23:13:35
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic » morganator, posted by Phillipa on November 26, 2009, at 22:53:05
> Excercise is the only thing that boosts my mood. Must ride bike daily up and down hills six miles. Was a runner but older now and bad back never depression or anxiety when runing always got the runner's high. Weight training not crazy about so don't force that on myself anymore. Love Phillipa
You don't feel anxious while you're running, but what about after?
Posted by mtdewcmu on November 26, 2009, at 23:15:33
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by morganator on November 26, 2009, at 20:19:42
> Good therapeutic exercise and manual labor are two different things.
>
> Whether it gives to a significant boost in mood or not, you cannot deny the health benefits. So, why not exercise??? Unless you don't want to be healthy. The best exercise is interval training like they do in spinning classes. This type of exercise is best for your heart and lungs.
>
> Exercise vigorously and properly for 30 to 40(maybe longer if you are including weight training) mins 4 to 5 days a week for 6 weeks and stretch your whole body properly for 10 to 20 mins after your workout, then come back and tell me that you think exercise has a placebo effect.You must not have read the part of my message where I wrote that I took up exercise during my worst depressive episode and it didn't help.
Posted by SLS on November 27, 2009, at 4:07:34
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by mtdewcmu on November 26, 2009, at 23:15:33
I think that this is another case of needing to acknowledge the interindividual differences that exist in the presentations of what we are all calling "depression". I never tried performing vigorous aerobic exercise every day for 3-4 weeks. I have lifted tons of weight, though. My exercise schedule comprised 4 times a week with alternating muscle groups. I did this for years without gleaning any benefit for my depression. There was a time when I did take brisk walks of 5 miles every day. Again, no help.
I think one needs to respect the potential for depression to render one nearly motionless with paralyzing psychomotor retardation and suffocating anergia. To intimate that a person with such a presentation can exercise if they were only to try hard enough can insinuate that they perhaps are somehow inferior and simply do not want to do what might be necessary to get well. Of course performing exercise is generally a good thing. But that doesn't mean that everyone is capable of it. Fortunately, there are other ways of treating depression. Exercise is not a necessary component of most treatment regimes. Actually, there are a few doctors who believe that intense anaerobic resistance exercise like weight-lifting can make someone feel worse instead of better - something about depleting brain amines. I don't know if I agree with this, though.
- Scott
Posted by Netch on November 27, 2009, at 10:02:25
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by SLS on November 27, 2009, at 4:07:34
> I think that this is another case of needing to acknowledge the interindividual differences that exist in the presentations of what we are all calling "depression". I never tried performing vigorous aerobic exercise every day for 3-4 weeks. I have lifted tons of weight, though. My exercise schedule comprised 4 times a week with alternating muscle groups. I did this for years without gleaning any benefit for my depression. There was a time when I did take brisk walks of 5 miles every day. Again, no help.
>
> I think one needs to respect the potential for depression to render one nearly motionless with paralyzing psychomotor retardation and suffocating anergia. To intimate that a person with such a presentation can exercise if they were only to try hard enough can insinuate that they perhaps are somehow inferior and simply do not want to do what might be necessary to get well. Of course performing exercise is generally a good thing. But that doesn't mean that everyone is capable of it. Fortunately, there are other ways of treating depression. Exercise is not a necessary component of most treatment regimes. Actually, there are a few doctors who believe that intense anaerobic resistance exercise like weight-lifting can make someone feel worse instead of better - something about depleting brain amines. I don't know if I agree with this, though.
>
>
> - ScottWell written Scott.
Exercise might help some with mild depression, but claiming exercise would cure depression would only be disrespectful to sufferers of severe depression.
Posted by mtdewcmu on November 27, 2009, at 12:06:37
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by SLS on November 27, 2009, at 4:07:34
> I think one needs to respect the potential for depression to render one nearly motionless with paralyzing psychomotor retardation and suffocating anergia. To intimate that a person with such a presentation can exercise if they were only to try hard enough can insinuate that they perhaps are somehow inferior and simply do not want to do what might be necessary to get well. Of course performing exercise is generally a good thing. But that doesn't mean that everyone is capable of it. Fortunately, there are other ways of treating depression. Exercise is not a necessary component of most treatment regimes. Actually, there are a few doctors who believe that intense anaerobic resistance exercise like weight-lifting can make someone feel worse instead of better - something about depleting brain amines. I don't know if I agree with this, though.
>I agree. Therefore, only less-depressed people will tend to exercise, which constitutes one form of bias. The other bias is, of course, the placebo effect.
For all the attention exercise gets vis-a-vis depression, you would expect there to be more controlled experiments to determine what are the exact benefits of exercise. It would be challenging, but not necessarily impossible, to find an adequate placebo for the control group in order to maintain blinding.
Posted by bulldog2 on November 27, 2009, at 13:09:41
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by SLS on November 27, 2009, at 4:07:34
> I think that this is another case of needing to acknowledge the interindividual differences that exist in the presentations of what we are all calling "depression". I never tried performing vigorous aerobic exercise every day for 3-4 weeks. I have lifted tons of weight, though. My exercise schedule comprised 4 times a week with alternating muscle groups. I did this for years without gleaning any benefit for my depression. There was a time when I did take brisk walks of 5 miles every day. Again, no help.
>
> I think one needs to respect the potential for depression to render one nearly motionless with paralyzing psychomotor retardation and suffocating anergia. To intimate that a person with such a presentation can exercise if they were only to try hard enough can insinuate that they perhaps are somehow inferior and simply do not want to do what might be necessary to get well. Of course performing exercise is generally a good thing. But that doesn't mean that everyone is capable of it. Fortunately, there are other ways of treating depression. Exercise is not a necessary component of most treatment regimes. Actually, there are a few doctors who believe that intense anaerobic resistance exercise like weight-lifting can make someone feel worse instead of better - something about depleting brain amines. I don't know if I agree with this, though.
>
>
> - ScottI agree with you Scott. I've fallen into depressions while involved in both cardio and combination resistance training programs. I recall once involved in a hiking program and I recall how poor my mood was and I did not respond to the program. The reality for me is I often have a desire to exercise when coming out of an depressive episode but exercise does not lift me out of depression.I to question how someone with a severe depression could complete the program that morganator describes. If you are capable of such intense activity are you just suffering from a milder form of depression or perhaps the depression is already lifting and one now has the ability to exercise??
I think my p-doc has a good equation in that good eating and exercise contribute perhaps 20% to ones recovery program. That is what he has seen with his patients. So perhaps as one starts to lift out of their depression the exercise may speed up the recovery?
Posted by morganator on November 27, 2009, at 14:57:13
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by mtdewcmu on November 26, 2009, at 23:15:33
> > Good therapeutic exercise and manual labor are two different things.
> >
> > Whether it gives to a significant boost in mood or not, you cannot deny the health benefits. So, why not exercise??? Unless you don't want to be healthy. The best exercise is interval training like they do in spinning classes. This type of exercise is best for your heart and lungs.
> >
> > Exercise vigorously and properly for 30 to 40(maybe longer if you are including weight training) mins 4 to 5 days a week for 6 weeks and stretch your whole body properly for 10 to 20 mins after your workout, then come back and tell me that you think exercise has a placebo effect.
>
> You must not have read the part of my message where I wrote that I took up exercise during my worst depressive episode and it didn't help.
>You may only respond to exercise when a medication is relieving at least 60 or 70 percent of you symptoms. I don't believe exercise alone can have a significant enough impact to wipe out depression, though it does work for some people experiencing more mild forms of depression. Also, when you are depressed you are less likely to exercise the way you would need to in order for it to have some benefit.
BTW, the best exercise for your heart and lungs is high intensity interval training. Of course you may have to exercise for a few weeks or a month before you are ready for interval training. Like I said before, spinning classes are a good example of this type of training.
There is another high intensity type training called Crossfit. This will get you in amazing shape without having to spend a lot of time at the gym.
If you do everything properly, including breathing correctly, exercise should help. There is a way to exercise vigorously or more relaxed where you breath from your diaphragm through your lungs using your mouth and nose in a meditative way. If you can do this you will benefit from exercise much more. If you take some air through your nose you are putting straight to your brain brain where it is needed. Just try it it's worth it. Sometimes I find myself in a zone where I'm just breathing through my nose. I often start off taking air through my mouth and finish off through my nose. This might sound a little ridiculous but it works for me and other people I know. You need to try to meditate in a way while you exercise, whether the exercise is intense or moderate.
Posted by morganator on November 27, 2009, at 15:03:31
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by bulldog2 on November 27, 2009, at 13:09:41
I agree that very severe depressives may not be able to exercise or even benefit much from it if they do. That said, I believe that if symptoms are relieved considerably and some depression and anxiety still exists, exercise help tremendously.
Scott, why not try cardiovascular exercise? I believe that is the type of exercise that really helps and creates changes in our brain chemistry. Again, I can not emphasize enough the benefits of intense exercise for those that are at a point where they can do it.
Posted by SLS on November 27, 2009, at 16:12:36
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by morganator on November 27, 2009, at 15:03:31
Hi.
> Scott, why not try cardiovascular exercise?
If we are talking about aerobic CV exercise, I simply cannot get myself to do it. It feels like it would be too much effort. I don't have that kind of energy reservoir to work with. I am happy to have returned to the gym for two workouts this past week. I have the motivation to perform resistance exercises, which are anaerobic. I can handle the sort of energy expenditure necessary to get through a workout. One can progress through the exercises at his own pace and allow for recovery of energy in between them. If I get to feel better and better, I will see if other types of exercise attract me.
- Scott
Posted by bulldog2 on November 27, 2009, at 16:49:11
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by morganator on November 27, 2009, at 15:03:31
> I agree that very severe depressives may not be able to exercise or even benefit much from it if they do. That said, I believe that if symptoms are relieved considerably and some depression and anxiety still exists, exercise help tremendously.
>
> Scott, why not try cardiovascular exercise? I believe that is the type of exercise that really helps and creates changes in our brain chemistry. Again, I can not emphasize enough the benefits of intense exercise for those that are at a point where they can do it.I agree with part of what you are saying that exercise can benefit those who are already recovering. But one has to be careful about the intensity of the exercise and the severity of the exercise. One has to find exercise that helps one recover and rebuild. If one's exercise plan is to intensive you risk sending the person back into the pits of depression.Remember that the depressed person is dealing with a lack of pyschic energy and the last thing you want is to deplete that energy.
Now this does not deal with depression but maybe makes my point. I recently had a hip replacement operation. Rehab was almost like learning to walk again as if one was a child learning to walk. To much intensity could have damaged the leg.
Posted by morganator on November 27, 2009, at 19:17:15
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic » morganator, posted by bulldog2 on November 27, 2009, at 16:49:11
I totally agree that you have to work your way up to being able to do certain types of exercise. One should take it slow in the beginning. It may be a few months of progressing for mild to moderate to more intense exercise.
Posted by morganator on November 27, 2009, at 19:28:15
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by SLS on November 27, 2009, at 16:12:36
> Hi.
>
> > Scott, why not try cardiovascular exercise?
>
> If we are talking about aerobic CV exercise, I simply cannot get myself to do it. It feels like it would be too much effort. I don't have that kind of energy reservoir to work with. I am happy to have returned to the gym for two workouts this past week. I have the motivation to perform resistance exercises, which are anaerobic. I can handle the sort of energy expenditure necessary to get through a workout. One can progress through the exercises at his own pace and allow for recovery of energy in between them. If I get to feel better and better, I will see if other types of exercise attract me.
>
>
> - ScottI hear ya. Maybe just going slow in the beginning would help. You could start walking on the treadmill or taking a slow stationary bike ride for 10 minutes. Hopefully you find a way to build up your conditioning and reap the benefits of cardiovascular exercise.
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2009, at 20:17:30
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by mtdewcmu on November 26, 2009, at 23:13:35
No when I ran it was starting up that was hard to do but after about l0 minutes got into the rhythm and kind of meditated as one thought or part of a song would be in my head and after cooling down if I had been thinking of an answer to a problem. Click it would just be there. Now at the time just anxiety as have Gad. I loved running. If only I could again. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2009, at 20:21:39
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by mtdewcmu on November 27, 2009, at 12:06:37
There was a psychiatrist in the 70's or 80's that conducted his sessions with depression while running with his patients and found they got better faster. Think the name began with a K? I will google later. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2009, at 20:26:36
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by SLS on November 27, 2009, at 16:12:36
Scott seriously as boring as it is treadmill or eliptical. There you can program into the machine your own ability to excercise pace, speed, time, intensity. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2009, at 21:16:31
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by SLS on November 27, 2009, at 4:07:34
Yeah I found it the book I read. I know four posts in a row but worth it. Read and decide. Phillipa boy this link better work!!!!
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,946869-1,00.html
Posted by SLS on November 27, 2009, at 21:34:59
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic » SLS, posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2009, at 20:26:36
> Scott seriously as boring as it is treadmill or eliptical. There you can program into the machine your own ability to excercise pace, speed, time, intensity. Phillipa
I usually start off my workouts by riding the bike for a few minutes - just enough to warm up my leg muscles for doing squats or leg-presses. I'll give some consideration to doing some aerobic work on my off days once I settle down into a stable exercise schedule.
- Scott
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