Posted by Hombre on December 2, 2010, at 2:31:58
In reply to Re: supplement side effects, posted by jeaner on December 1, 2010, at 20:52:48
Unfortunately I do not know a lot about the endocrine system, but it is definitely an interest of mine. I don't have a thyroid condition, but my depression and my medications cause hypothyroid like symptoms, i.e. coldness, apathy, depression, etc.
I also know what it feels like to be overstimulated, with constant fast heartbeat, anxiety, agitation, inability to put on or maintain a healthy weight, insomnia, and phobias. Maybe similar to hyperthyroid, but not the same.
I found this:
http://www.longevity-center.com/thyroid_interview_2.html
"Alternative Medicine for Graves' Disease
Mary Shomon: Many patients who are in the throes of hyperthyroidism due to Graves' Disease are reluctant to try herbal medicine, because they have such acute symptoms - palpitations, high blood pressure, tremors, etc. Frequently they are being shepherded to quickly have radioactive iodine permanently disable their thyroid. Have you found any herbal remedies for hyperthyroidism that work quickly, or that can be pursued in conjunction with the use of antithyroid drugs or beta blockers that are used to help manage the acute phase?
Shasta Tayam: It depends on what you think quickly is. Generally, the more severe problems like hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism take a lot of treatments to get under control, and may need both western and eastern/complementary methods to treat and stabilize. The person's should always try to work with their whole environment, lifestyle, foods, medications, herbs, treatments, exercise etc. to get the best results. I have seen a combination of acupuncture (2 to 3x's a week), Chi Kung (exercise), less spicy and greasy foods and some herbal formulas with cooling uncongesting properties help a lot within two months. I have seen the fast pulse rate decrease and the protruding eyes go back in and a lot of the symptoms decrease with this more aggressive approach (3x's a week of acupuncture treatments for 3 months). The herbs used are again specific for the patient's constitution, sometimes strong Chinese herbs such as oyster shell and dragon bone are used, and in acute stages I have seen western herbs such as St. John's wort and kava kava along with valerian be used. Kava kava is very sedating and works quickly, however it is spicy and hyperthyroid people are too hot so this could create a problem, especially if used long term, so it is very tricky and should be monitored by a health care provider. I think it is safe to say that chamomile and peppermint tea (room temperature) along with Planetary Formulas Easy Sleep, Stress Free and possibly Bupleurum Calmative are good over the counter formulas. As far as taking herbs along with other hyperthyroid drugs, if the herbs are taken two to three hours from the drugs it would decreases the interaction and may help the body rebalance more quickly, but again this would need to be prescribed by a health care provider who was knowledgeable about herb drug interactions."
and this:
http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/chinesemed.htm
"Mary Shomon: How does Chinese medicine view a thyroid problem such as hyperthyroidism?
Dr. Purdue: Well, again, one can look at some of the classic hyperthyroid symptoms such as weight loss, rapid heartbeat rate, elevated body temperature, insomnia, and profuse sweating, but have other symptoms that would need to be factored in. So let's say we have a patient with the above symptoms who also has a reddish facial complexion, gnawing hunger, acid regurgitation, frequent belching, and ringing in the ears. This patient could not be treated with the same formula and treatment as someone with the same hyperthyroid basic symptoms but a different group of other symptoms. We would follow the same approach as described for hypothyroid cases which would involve a customized formula to treat the patient's uniquenesses, dietary advice, and other lifestyle suggestions as appropriate. Our medicine is based upon pattern diagnosis rather than a Western-style disease "label."
Mary Shomon: When someone has an autoimmune thyroid condition (such as Hashimoto's, Thyroiditis, or Graves' disease), what are your thoughts about using some of the common "immune-boosting" Chinese herbs such as ginseng, codonopsis, astragalus, schisandra, and isatis.
Dr. Purdue: This is a very good question to ask since a lot of people are under the impression that because TCM is "old," and autoimmune conditions are "new," that they would not have a treatment approach. So, if you don't mind, I'd like to explain our approach to autoimmune conditions briefly before answering your questions about whether or not the herbs you asked about would be appropriate.
Another famous Chinese physician from the past was a fellow named Li Dong-Yuan. He was one of the four great master physicians of the Jin-Yuan dynasties period, which spanned a period of time from 1115 - 1368 AD His classic work is a text entitled Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach. In this text, he proposed a very complicated set of diagnostic principles and a group of treatments that is so involved that this was not taught to us in school. I had to learn about it during numerous, extensive postgraduate programs. When one understands what he was describing as far as conditions and symptoms, it is clear that he was observing, diagnosing and treating what we would call autoimmune diseases. So there is definitely nothing "new" about these conditions. And though Dr. Li figured out ways to approach and treat these conditions he still approached the condition in front of him in the same basic way, pattern diagnosis based upon the four examinations, treatment principle, medicinal formula.
Now to answer your question about the herbs you mentioned. Once one understands the TCM description of these medicinals, which is completely different than the Western pharmacological description of their actions, one can safely determine if a medicinal is appropriate. In some, and certainly not all, conditions of autoimmune disorder there may be an appropriate use for the medicinals which are labeled as being "immune-boosting" in the West. Ginseng, codonopsis and schisandra are thought to be "adaptogens" in the West, meaning that they tend to normalize function. Astragalus has been found to increase the activity of white blood cells, and there are several doctors who use it heavily in the treatment of cancer patients as there is some evidence that astragalus can "switch on" natural killer cells, the specialized white blood cells that target malignancies. Isatis has shown to have anti-viral activity and has even been used in some AIDS research. And even in the Western literature it is somewhat controversial as to whether these herbs actually "boost" the immune system in a way that could be a problem for autoimmune patients. However, this has nothing to do with the TCM description of these herbs function. In addition, the formulas that we use are polypharmacy. Many ingredients are involved and the synergistic interactions of the medicinal ingredients changes the function of the herbs if they were used individually.
So the moral of this story is that patients should not experiment with these medicinals on themselves, particularly in autoimmune conditions, and should seek the skills of a TCM practitioner who knows how to work these formulas. This is not an easy medicine to practice. It is far from the simplistic Western herbal approach of "if you have a headache take feverfew, and if you have a bellyache take peppermint tea." It is serious medicine, and should not be experimented with lightly.
Mary Shomon: Are there any books or websites you think are of particular interest to someone who wants to learn more about Traditional Chinese Medicine?
Dr. Purdue: Sure. A great book that explains this whole thing about pattern diagnosis and so on is The Web That Has No Weaver by Ted Kaptchuk. Blue Poppy Press (1-800-487-9296) is a publisher of really excellent TCM textbooks used in the schools, and also has very good publications for the lay public."
Based on your post on my other thread, I think it is possible that former lifestyle choices, such as overdoing it, can cause deficiencies/weakness in the body, which can manifest as all sorts of fluctuations and problems with mood, energy, and anxiety. I spent a year in an almost constant state of fear, with chronic fatigue and insomnia. No matter what or how much I ate, I could not seem to get energy or calm down. Workouts made me waste away. These problems are now gone with psyche meds and herbs. It's night and day.
Also, a raw food diet may not fit your constitution, regardless of beliefs. Raw foods will quickly weaken your digestion, disrupting the normal production of digestive enzymes from your pancreas, gall from your gall bladder (leading to lack of courage), etc. I wouldn't be surprised if it caused obsessive thoughts and worries, as I had those symptoms constantly when I was in that weak, anxiety-filled state.
The main concern is that it will tax your digestive fire (maybe an enzymatic, chemical "fire"), and eventually start to burn out your kidney (adrenal) energy over time. Fear, anxiety, lack of willpower, memory problems - these are symptoms of that condition, along with urinary and water-balance issues.
I think the key would be to find an herbalist who specializes in endocrine/thyroid type conditions, and would thus be up to date on herb-drug interactions. While some herbalists may not have the background, a lot do have Western medical training and also apprentice with experienced doctors/herbalists who may have had even more medical training and experience working side-by-side with Western medical doctors in a hospital (in China or elsewhere).
A complicated situation for sure, but focusing on the root, not the branches, will surely yield results over time. I'm sure you are well on your way on this path, and I hope you stay open to all the options out there.
poster:Hombre
thread:971483
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20100930/msgs/972153.html