Posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 22, 2010, at 23:47:25
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by Hombre on November 22, 2010, at 20:51:32
OK, I hope this doesn't get too confusing! But I find it takes me MUCH less time to respond back if I go line by line, and I stay better on topic.
(> > * worry is mostly situational, but it does play a part in the adding of stressors which trigger depression or anxiety or both. Which then can tailspin into hypomania where I obsess and become extremely irritable
>
> My depression is like that. Very similar symptoms. I take Seroquel for the anxiety and insomnia, characterized by worrying spinning out of control and an inability to focus on one thing. My mind keeps jumping around and can't settle on one topic. The web is dangerous when I'm in this condition due to the non-linear format.)YES! When you have described your experiences in previous posts i felt that our symptoms were very similar, which is part of the reason why I am so interested in what you take, how you take it, and your thoughts behind it. well, that and that I am very much interested in TCM and most things of this nature which focus on the wholeness of "being." I also think internet is probably the thing I am having the toughest time with right now. it sucks me in and before I realize it I am up til 5 AM (like last night)...probably hypomanic right now. I was up 4 hours later at 9 AM, and I have not felt the least bit tired....BUT that said, I also was completely and utterly useless and unable to get motivated to do the things I could have done to make tomorrow easier, and I now will likely be up until 2 AM to get those things done...further current example, I just got back from the store 30 min ago. I was at the store to get what I needed to make up a couple of batches of holiday cookies when I am leaving late morning to fly out to visit family...AND I still have vacuuming and laundry to do, and a kitchen to clean up. LOL seriously! I have decided not to make the cookies thank goodness, but I think you get my point! lol
(> If I could do it again, I'd definitely treat Spleen and Kidneys with herbs first, both of which may lead to obsessive thoughts, worries, ruminating (esp. on the past), anxiety, fear, lack of ability to take action.
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> > * lack of motivation and depression, overall 'blah' mood, THAT hits the nail on the head...at least this seems to be the most dominant of my moods as of late, and the better part of the past 3 months (I'm not really in a depression, just very "bored" is the best way I can describe it)
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> Yeah, apathy and boredom can be there without sad/depressed mood. It's hard to separate them, but they are somewhat distinct. I still get this from time to time, and treating the Kidneys is the best method I've tried so far. Even single-herb adaptogens aren't specific enough to target this symptom cluster.
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> > * lack of sleep never struck me as an issue until I realized one day that I could not recall the last time in 2-3 years when I have gone to bed regularly at a "decent" hour (ex: it is currently 1:45 AM lol, and this is very typical)
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> I had this sort of insomnia for over a decade. I thought I'd never get to bed early or before 1or 2am. I think my meds do a good job of handling this, so I wont complain.
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> I once had my pulse taken by a CM doc in Asia and he asked me if I stayed up late. He was right, and he could tell because my liver was showing some symptoms. 11pm-1am is the time when the they say the qi is in the liver. This is an important time because this is when your liver does the majority of its detox.
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> I can't say for sure whether or not this is true, but I can say the quality of sleep is much better if I can fall asleep before 11. In fact, I shoot for this every night by taking my meds at 9pm. I feel more refreshed in the morning this way.
I HOPE I can get to that point soon! Getting to bed late I think really does put a lot of symptoms into motion, or can drive them into hyper-mode making the swings more extreme. And it messes up my natural internal clock. I used to always be a morning person when I was a kid, and now I'm quite obviously having a hard time getting up before 8 AM so I have missed about 2 hours that could have been very productive.
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> > Do you feel tired after you eat? Does your diet seem to affect your energy and mood?
> >
> > * hmmm, tired? If I eat heavy foods, yes. Otherwise, I don't really notice much difference in energy level, niether a lack nor a gain.
> >
> > * When I eat sushi I feel great...clean fresh energy, and mentall sharper as well. I really wish the fish oil caps did the same thing for me! I may need to take a less processed form though? Currently taking 4 Barlean's Fish Oil caps (orange flavor), total: 4000mg, 1440mg EPA, 960mg DHA
> >
> > * I do notice certain foods adversely affecting me, particularly dairy, heavy starches and caffeine. Interestingly enough, when I was curious about the blood type diet (I'm A-), it suggested eating mostly vegetables and fruits, plant based diet and to limit animal protein intake, even fish
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> I think this *may* mean that your Spleen is not too weak. Heavy, sticky foods that don't digest will cause stagnation, heat, and a heavy, lazy/tired feeling.
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> For me, I find I have to eat lots of protein in order to feel well. There are sound nutritional reasons for this, primarily the fact that I exercise a lot, and amino acids are the building blocks of most of your hormones and enzymes. Fat, too.
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> In fact, I do well on a diet of meat, fish, and some veggies with a smaller amount of complex carbs. I only eat brown+red rice and wholewheat bread. I'm sure you know about this stuff, just thinking out loud. Diet is so crucial, because without the basic physical energy, emotional energy and mental energy cannot be supported.I do NEED to get more aerobically fit. I am in good weight (very lucky to have inherited my Dad's metabolism!), but as far as fitness...I'm a dud and really need to work on it.
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> According to Chinese medicine and also energy management theories from Western sources, emotional, mental and even spiritual energy are just different states or frequencies of energy. Energy can transform from gross/material to more refined states of energy, and back again. That's why the condition of the body can never be excluded when considering mental disorders, but at the same time, your mind and spirit can affect your health as well.
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> The highest form of medicine (so they say) is dealing directly with the spirit, or shen. Mental disorders are ultimately disorders of the shen/spirit, housed in the Heart. Unfortunately, this aspect of healing is slowly being eliminated, or worse, demonized as archaic and unscientific. Whatever. It's only in the past decade that they've discovered that the brain can regrow. There are obviously tons of things that science has yet to understand, if it ever will.
YES! 100% agree. I see it all the time in the horses...the vets and trainers all focus on the physical symptom so much that the whole picture is lost. For instance, a horse who has ulcers ends up physically compromised its back and hind limbs and often becomes unwilling to move forward and overall just sour and unhappy. You see it in their eyes and the coat is often dull, and they also hold their abdomen close to their core. The vet will treat the joints, temporarily the back by injecting it on either side of the spine with something very similar to lidocaine (the longisimus dorsi ends up feeling like a plank of wood) and they'll treat the ulcers with omeprazole (which IMO just exacerbates the acid/alkaline balancee). BUT What started the ulcers in the first place? The food and supplements you are feeding the horse along with the fact that these show animals are almost never getting free access to fresh green grass. OK off my soap box!!! SORRY!! I could go on foreva on this topic. ;o) It is getting better, more open like it is in human medicine, but often these theories transfer quite well to horses. They are very very sensitive creatures.
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> > The thing with anxiety, at least from my experience, is that it is both physical and psychological. My mind can really psyche me out, but if I push past the initial uneasiness I almost always feel better having done whatever it is I wanted/needed to get done. Getting into the habit of confronting my fears is probably what I need to do more than anything.
> >
> > * The only time I feel the anxiety creep in at the moment is when I have to play the "salesperson" and my business requires a bit of that to get going...and I agree 100%, that the initial fear is usually put to rest once it is confronted and defeated...it's basically just making yourself grow and jump outside the box, but unless that happens the fear rules and can even develop into a phobia if not kept in check IMO. I do need to work on this a bit more myself. I'll be forced to do it anyway 6 weeks from now when I return to Florida for my busiest season! eeps!
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> That gives you time to try some new things, and I think there is every reason to expect and shoot for a more stable, comfortable base from which to work from. I just want to stress that this is possible, eventually. I really hope you will feel better about your busy season so you can continue to be successful in your business. I sort of envy where you're at in your career :)I hope so too! Thanks for the kudos...ahh, the front one has to uphold to make everything look like sunshine and roses! lol It is stressful for me to think about sometimes (ah! now that is where some anxiety would come in if I decideed not to take LiOr)...well, if I dwell on it too long anyway. The driving force for my posting here asking questions and trying to figure this out though, is because I lost 95% of my client base last season! I was under the covers for 3-4 months with a debilitating depression followed by a crazy, unconcious 2 month long manic episode. I was really lucky that I had met someone a few months prior to the episode of depression who happens to be bipolar. So here, a person I had only know a few months turned out to be the only person I could turn to and be 100% honest with...more so than any friends I had known for 8+ years, even family for that matter. He helped pull me out of my hole, and he gave me something to think about. I am forever grateful to him for this. BUT, I have a lot of work to do and a lot of ground to regain...and I am on the brink of hitting rock bottom. If I do, I lose everything I have worked for including the 2 horses I have bred and am currently raising (they are just 15 months old right now). I am finally down to 3 horses now from 8 this time last year...thank goodness, so that is a lot less financial pressure. This doomsday all said though, I can tell you that I am already in a better mental position right now than I was this time last year. And I attribute this to be conciously aware, acknowledging that I have to monitor myself a bit, AND realizing that I have a few outlets and support...and I am absolutely without a doubt including this sounding board in this rant of appreciation. It is excruciating when you feel that you have no one to go to for support, and I feel relieved to know that I DO have support and continue to build this network so that I can get back on my feet again, regain confidence, and be successful once again...hopefully even more so. In the long run, I believe I will be better for having to take this journey. K, off my box now for a min.
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> > * I feel like you just described me to a T! I absolutely fall into the "parasympathetic" mold!
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> > * I like the idea of the Golden Cabinet Kidney Pills...Can it be taken simultaneously with the Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan? This would take care of tonifying the liver, which for what ever reason, I keep coming back to. I feel like there is a bit of stagnant energy...which represents dampness, is that right? or am I confusing it with something else? and would that also relate back to spleen? Liver/spleen are a yin/yang pair, so tonifying the liver would help the spleen as well...did I get that right?
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> The two formulas can be taken together. The only thing to watch out for is too much heat from the Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan. If you feel too stimulated, or hot and thirsty, switch to Liu Wei Di Huang Wan. I don't think BZYQW causes much heat. I think it might have a few herbs to clear heat.
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> BZYQW works mostly on the "upper burner", a sort of made-up "organ" that refers to metabolic function in the upper third of the body. JGSQW works on the lower burner. You'll know it's working when you start to feel a comfortable, warm sensation in your lower abdomen or lumbar area. This area is key for your overall energy. If it gets too "cold", you get that apathy and other symptoms, like weakness in the lower back and joints in the legs. When the "fire" is just right, you feel comfortable, warm, and have more willpower. I know it sounds strange, but they specifically associate willpower with the kidneys. This will also affect memory.
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> Liver stagnation is almost always involved with mental disorders. When a person gets upset or frustrated, and cannot express this constructively, liver qi stagnation will occur. One way to express this is to say that the liver is involved in detoxing and neutralizing hormones. If the liver is not functioning optimally, stress hormones (glucocorticoids) and sex hormones (estrogen, ...) may not be broken down efficiently, hence liver stagnation can lead to irritability, anger, and a full/stuffy sensation in the ribs/chest area, or even a lump in the throat.
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> When the liver becomes stagnant, heat can build up. The stomach and spleen will often be affected, messing up digestion and weakening these organs' ability to transform food into blood and energy, and to transform and transport "fluids", leading to dampness, which will sort of muck up the works, causing dullness, apathy, etc.
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> I know it all sounds too simple, but the analogies are consistent with the treatments, and if the treatments didn't work, the whole model would have collapsed and never have survived this long. Herbs are classified in basic ways, according to what they do in the body. Their actions are well known, and the formulas have been time-tested to be effective, and to take advantage of natural synergies between herbs. I wish we could only say the same for meds and med combos. Mixing herbs is a fine art, very difficult. Harder than gourmet cooking. Mixing meds is...primitive, at best.
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> BZYQW tonifies the Spleen and assist the liver in upholding the "upright qi", basically that upbearing, structural energy I talked about. It's weird, but twice I've taken the formula and noticed that I felt like standing up really straight, which is hard for someone who has slouched all his life and still struggles to correct that. It's amazing how one's energy and mood are affected when the heart and lungs have ample room to function, and the blood vessels in the neck are not kinked from muscle tension and bad posture. Your mileage may vary, of course.
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> > * Well noted! How long do you give something a try before changing it up? Instinct says to stick with herbals for at least 6 weeks to get them well established in the system. Do you ever take them more often than 3x per day to get started? Say 5x/day for the first 3-4 days? Or, just more tea pills and just 3x/day?
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> It's hard to say, because the longer you've been ill/had these negative patterns, the longer it'll take to nudge things back to a balanced state. Lifestyle is obviously a huge factor. Maybe consider cutting back on "cold" foods, such as raw fruits and veggies, ice cream, ice water, stuff like that. They force your body to use energy to digest and warm up. You need every ounce of energy to maintain your mood.
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> That said, maybe a month or longer to feel a significant change. I don't know if you'd want to overdo the herbs too much, maybe up to 1.5 - 2x MAX per dose. Three times a day is probably the max. Taking tonic herbs thirty minutes before meals will help too. On an empty stomach is best, with warm water or broth.
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> > * Yes! Thank you! You are insightful as always, and thoughtful beyond measure for being so thorough! I really appreciate it!
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> It's my pleasure. And thanks for your advice and suggestions too. I hope I didn't ramble too much, but it helps me to put these ideas into words, because my experience is changing all the time as I continue to use and experiment with herbs. Nothing I say is more than the opinion of a hobbyist, so keep that in mind...I like your ramblings, so ramble anytime you wish ;o) Hobbyist or not, this all makes a lot of sense to me, more sense to me than the Western med approach to most things. You explain it well! I think you would be great to make this your career :0) it seems like you are happy and passionate about it with a genuine interest in helping others. Perhaps setting up a resource website for TCM with several forums and perhaps specifically honing in on mental 'disorders' (if I gave myself another 45 min to think on it I'd have a whole business plan written up for you...oh yes, I am def hypomanic right now! lol it's funny to me that I haven't noticed it until actually reaponding and seeing it in front of me, good practice I guess for fine-tuning my corresponding reactions to it) sorry! Too funny, I am the one with ramblings, now, my mind is a bit scattered. I'll decipher it later in a few days so that it makes better sense. Thanks again, I always look forward to your responses. Hope you are having a good one! Wish me luck on all of the packing up and getting ready that I can make my flight in time! lol
poster:BetweenDreams81
thread:966033
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20100930/msgs/971052.html