Posted by bleauberry on March 30, 2018, at 6:58:10
In reply to Re: bleauberry » bleauberry, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 23, 2018, at 15:19:15
Sometimes people have to agree to disagree and call it good. Someone who wants to be an optimist instead of a pessimist, someone who wants to ask questions and learn new stuff instead of rejecting it at face value, those kinds of people can choose from the conversation what they think might apply to them or not.
Not meaning to be critical myself, it sort of might be mentioned that the same people who strongly disagreed with me 5 years ago, 10 years ago, never saw enduring improvement or remission, and still resist the lessons of success stories.
> Hi,
>
> I think it's great that you want to help people, but while you are claiming a holistic approach, you actually seem to be attributing almost everything to microorganisms - which is not holistic.
>
> I do understand that Lyme may be under-diagnosed in Europe, but that does not mean we should start attributing everything to that particular cause.
>
> >We do actually know......consistent symptoms.
>
> No, we don't know Blue. To say otherwise is quite presumptuous. It is not fair to imply good knowledge of someone else's symptoms and medical history due to reading some posts online - none of us here have that degree of information.
>
> I also don't think it's sensible to use a prior positive antibody test as evidence, after the claims you've made about the test. With false positives and negatives being possible.
>
> >He also responded in consistent manner to attempted treatment.
>
> Including, to an ear drop with limited penetration beyond the external ear canal. Which is not suggestive of Herxheimer.
>
> >Jeroen does. If you check the list of symptoms for DSM depression, most of them are the symptoms as Lyme also...think about that....
>
> Some of them are symptoms of multiple forms of chronic disease, with absolutely no specificity for Lyme at all.
>
> >There is no way to accurately pinpoint what is going on because available testing is so inadequate.
>
> Very true. Which is why I say, we actually don't know that an infection is present.
>
> >If you had been on my journey, it would likely be clear to you too.
>
> Yes, but it's not possible to apply your own personal journey to other people you've met online, based on limited information.
>
> >This is totally false. The entire paragraph is false.
>
> I understand that you have an exceptionally broad definition of what constitutes a Herxheimer reaction - markedly different to the original definition. I can see the possibilities... but I would not go so far. Many antibiotics cause a wide range of symptoms as standard side effects.
>
> >He Herxed like hell and then when he came out of it he was totally cured.
>
> I'd interpret that report as 'he had very unpleasant symptoms after taking an antibiotic'. Calling everything a Herxheimer reaction is a push, because you don't know that it was anything to do with Herxheimer. Could have been side effects. Secondly, most antibiotics used in Lyme are very broad spectrum and some have multiple unrelated non-antibiotic activities as well. So what you're saying is that someone no longer had nausea after taking an antibiotic. That is good news, but it certainly doesn't prove it was Lyme disease. Could have been literally anything.
>
> Personally, as an example.... I don't tolerate doxycycline well. It is a well known gastric irritant and it does nauseate me. Headache is also a common side effect. On the other hand, I tolerate minocycline and amoxicillin extremely well. I do not believe that my symptoms on doxycyline represent Herxeimer, but no doubt some people online would jump to that conclusion.
>
> I could go onto a Lyme message board now and say.... I've taken doxycycline for XYZ, I feel awful, really sick and have a headache.... and have people tell me I was 'Herxing'. But that isn't reasonable. A lot more information is needed before symptoms can be attributed to Herxheimer reaction.
>
poster:bleauberry
thread:1097287
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20180212/msgs/1097829.html