Posted by Elroy on January 12, 2010, at 9:40:08
In reply to LDN and depression » casse, posted by tea on January 12, 2010, at 2:54:50
> this post suggests (they also don't know)
> Site suggests:
> Serotonin Levels
> Endorphins decrease serotonin levels.
> "Endorphin- and serotonine-metabolism are closely related, and opioid peptides can directly inhibit serotonine release. (23) Therefore, besides sleeplessness, opioid peptides can also cause depressions. In chronically depressed people, free endorphin level is 3 fold higher (24) (because part of endorphin receptors have been destroyed)"
> Is this information correct...?
> If so LDN takers need to watch out for decreasing levels of Serotonin ?!
> I too have no idea!
> I do know you should be very cautious when you first try ldn as I experienced pretty scary depression that night, and first few nights ,
> I think ldn is more powerful than it is considered and does at least in me have side effects. I've been reading of many side efefcts and it expalins many of the things I've experienced lately and hadn't linked with the ldn.. but couold be coincidence.. like itchy skin even?
Please post links showing "many side effects" of LDN. I would greatly enjoy reading them.
The three top level experts (2 USA and 1 UK) have consistently reported ONLY "weird dreams", "vivid dreams" (for "up to a week") and "periodic occasional mild leg spasms" (only in MS patients - and then only for first 2 - 4 days) as side effects for LDN.
In fact, LDN has been one of the extremely rare drugs that has been legally classified by the FDA as being in the category of drugs that "Do No Harm"!!!! And the FDA reports that on a per capita basis that LDN has "fewer side effects than normal doses of aspirin" and that LDN has a "significantly better safety record than aspirin at normal doses"!!!
I think that you take so many multiples of meds and switch from one thing to the other and throw various supplement items in that you try just briefly (like ONE bottle of Lactoferrin??? Lacctoferrin or "The Milk Cure" takes a minimum of four weeks to be effective and has to be done under very controlled conditions with no other major supps or meds to seriously work), that, well, you really have NO idea as to what is causing what symptom or side effect is being caused by what!
But what you posted was simply to a web page of a Forum where people state their opinions (*) and can post links to studies, etc. The ACTUAL STUDY that you (apparently) are referring to is - and is quoted in the Forum page that you posted - is actually located at:
By the way, the article mentions ONLY Naltrexone - and NEVER once LDN and refers to Naltrexone in the concept of a possible treatment of autism (this is ALL older information and as I recall, the study was NOT too successful). It does NOT mention LDN at all... anywhere!
And it (the original source web page)says:
An Excess of Endorphins:
"But OPPOSING evidence CONTRADICTS this hypothesis stating that perhaps it is not a lack of endorphins, but rather an excess of endorphins, OR even that endorphins ARE NOT A FACTOR in the depression question at all."
The History and Future of Endorphins in Depression
"Endorphin- and serotonine-metabolism are closely related, and opioid peptides can directly inhibit serotonine release. (23) Therefore, besides sleeplessness, opioid peptides can also cause depressions. In chronically depressed people, free endorphin level is 3 fold higher (24) (because part of endorphin receptors have been destroyed)"
Interpretation: Their studies repeatedly showed varied results, that excess endorphins MAY or MAY NOT have a causation with Depression.. but then if you read further, it is clear that it is the Depression causing the excess Endorphins - if that connection IS true as, I quote: "In chronically depressed people, free endorphin level is 3 fold higher (24) (because part of endorphin receptors have been destroyed)" So chronic depression causes (possibly) up to a three fold EXCESS of Endorphins --- BECAUSE THE CHRONIC DEPRESSION DESTROYED THE ENDORPHIN RECEPTORS!!!! How did you possibly get an LDN connection out of that??? More on EXCESS Endorphins later...
Some OTHER causes of release of Endorphins:
Pain: The release of endorphins is caused by all pain, including eating spicy foods;
Overexposure to Light: Endorphins are released by overexposure to light.
Other Causes: Endorphins are released by both laughter and stress; sexual activity; exercise; endorphins cause euphoria
Now this is talking about when Endorphins are released into the body in normal range amounts, OPTIMAL Range amounts (what LDN does)and even highly elevated amounts - as when you orgasm (And I don't EVER recall being depressed or getting a headache or anything bu the greatest feeling in the world during and for several minutes following orgasm... because you just got a very high blast of Endorphins - but note that it didn't last for hours and hours and hours - Endorphins have a half-life and spurts of high levels of Endorphins (as with orgasm - no pun intended) fairly quickly resolve themselves... unless you are a heroin, opium, morphine, or other opiate user in which case the DRUG is causing an excess of Endorphins to continually flood the system...
And THAT is what full-strength Naltrexone does, what it does is to completely - or almost completely - shut down that Endorphin release to rid the body of that excess of secretion of opiate drug induced Endorphins... it is the opiate drug causing that excess and NOT the Naltrexone, - in fact it is the Naltrexone that is fixing the problem so that - eventually - the serotonin levels will gradually return to normalized levels (in other words your interpretation is completely opposite... PLUS this involves the workings of Naltrexone and NOT the LDN therapy doses which work on a completely different principle that what is outlined anywhere on this web page)!
They then get off track and start talking about everything from general "New Age" therapies that have NOTHING to do with Endorphins or Naltrexone, etc. for some time, before EITHER Endorphins or Naltrexone (full strength) are mentioned again.
BTW.... another interesting quote:
What are Opioid Antagonists?
"The exact action of opioid antagonists is not fully understood, but they probably block the release of certain brain chemicals (neurotransmitters), especially dopamine."
Naltrexone and Autism.
"Naltrexone blocks the action of endogenous opioids at opiate receptors; endorphins are opiate-like substances in the brain and are associated with pleasure (e.g., runners' 'high,' sexual activity) and/or an anesthetic-like feeling. One theory states that autistic individuals have too much beta-endorphins in their central nervous system. This theory goes on to posit that naltrexone blocks the action of opiate receptors, and thus, reduces the level of endorphins."
I repeat.... THIS THEORY GOES ON TO POSIT THAT (FULL STRENGTH) NALTREXONE BLOCKS - REPEAT "BLOCKS" - THE ACTION OF THE OPIATE RECEPTORS AND THUS, REDUCES - REPEAT "REDUCES - THE LEVEL OF ENDORPHINS!!!!!
And - once again - you are quoting the mechanisms and effects of Naltrexone and not understanding that that is NOT how LDN works!!! LDN simply stops the secretion of Endorphins for 2 -3 hours which causes the resumption of Endorphin production (when the LDN wears off) to increase to where Endorphins are increased into the Optimum level range. LDN is incapable of - like an orgasm - secreting Endorphins into the excessive levels range. Only into the high normal or "OPTIMAL Ranges"....
Naltrexone is an FULL TIME opioid receptor antagonist used primarily in the management of opioid dependence and, to a much lesser degree alcohol dependence. It is marketed in generic form as its hydrochloride salt, naltrexone hydrochloride and is approved by the FDA for such purposes in its full-stength dosage of specifically 50 mg.
Low Dose Naltrexone is NOT a full-time opioid receptor antagonist and is used primarily to (A) bring AEndorphin levels - especially when reduced - to an OPTIMAL range, (B) repair disease caused neurological (nerve) damage, and (C) rebuild or modulate the Immune System.
Again.... Please post links showing "many side effects" of LDN (specifically LDN and NOT full strength Naltrexone). I would greatly enjoy reading them.
Also, read and try to full grasp the actions and processes of LDN as differentiates between LDDN and Naltrexone...
And - again - understand that LDN is NOT a treatment for Depression or Anxiety that are psychologically based or based on neurotransmitter deficiencies or imbalances.
LDN has been shown to work significantly to very strongly on the following diseases (most of which involve Immune System Disorders, Autoimmune System Disorders - LDN is an Immune System "Modulator" - it corrects too inadequate of an Immune System yet will reduce an overactive, over-aggressive Immune System, and heals - to a significant extent - neurological damage - as with MS patients, neurological damage caused by hypercortisol, etc., etc.).
* Bladder Cancer
* Breast Cancer
* Colon & Rectal Cancer
* Liver Cancer
* Lung Cancer (Non-Small Cell)
* Lymphocytic Leukemia (chronic)
* Lymphoma (Hodgkin's and Non-Hodgkin's)
* Malignant Melanoma
* Multiple Myeloma
* Ovarian Cancer
* Pancreatic Cancer
* Prostate Cancer (untreated)
* Renal Cell Carcinoma
* Throat Cancer
* Uterine Cancer
* ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease)
* Alzheimer's Disease
* Ankylosing Spondylitis
* Autism Spectrum Disorders
* Behcet's Disease
* Celiac Disease
* Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
* CREST syndrome
* Crohn's Disease
* Emphysema (COPD)
* Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS)
* Multiple Sclerosis (MS)
* Parkinson's Disease
* Primary Lateral Sclerosis (PLS)
* Rheumatoid Arthritis
* Stiff Person Syndrome (SPS)
* Systemic Lupus (SLE)
* Transverse Myelitis
* Ulcerative Colitis
* Wegener's Granulomatosis
* AND... Recovering Cushing's patients through mechanism of rebuilding Immune System and repairing cortisol-induced neurological damage.
Note that neither depression or anxiety is on the list...
However ...LDN actually CAN help with anxiety and / or depression in one round-about manner.
If you are depressed because you have MS and it is worsening and you go onto LDN Therapy and have a couple of very light relapses over the first years and then NO relapses after that (one lady so far has gone 12 years without an MS relapse - and has had only one in 17 years because she thought she was cured - she wasn't as her MS was too advanced when she started LDN - so she stopped it for a week after 5 years and got another relapse --- had she not done that, she would have gone SEVENTEEN YEARS without a relapse... and very well may NEVER have another relapse!) Now, I definitely believe that such Blessed Relief would rapidly clear up here depressive state!
IMO - and I am no doctor, simply a well-researched layman (who does "Internet and Open Source Records Research" part-time on the side for law firms and private investigators for "spending money" over and above my pension check... so am a court-recognized "Internet Researcher"), I would recommend that unless you have a primary condition that LDN is designed for and are not using it to try and treat primarily depression or anxiety AND unless you are willing to give it AT LEAST a 3.0 mg LDN dose for a 90-day time period, that YOU most definitely SHOULD not waste your time or money... nor post its "ill effects" when you are clearly having trouble differentiating between LDN and regular Naltrexone!!!
"But what you posted was simply to a web page of a Forum where people state their opinions... "
It is EXTREMELY obvious that even the individuals posting here are relatively clueless about the major differences between Naltrexone (which they repeatedly cite and state) versus LDN... (individuals who are NOT doctors, not scientists, not researchers, just individual layman looking for a longevity boost - in fact this site promotes chemical ways to eventually produce Human Immortality --- so I tend to give this site quite a bit of a "Quack-Quack" rating)