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Dopamine raises + NE reuptake = worsing SAD ??? Michael Bell

Posted by Vincent_QC on March 1, 2009, at 11:46:16

In reply to Re: new study finds no D2 dopamine abnormality in Relapse, posted by Michael Bell on March 1, 2009, at 2:59:03

> If the anxiety you are suffering from is of the socially anxious and socially paranoid type (they are judging me, etc.) then my belief is that two classes of drugs will make those symptoms worse: drugs that raises dopamine levels (not including drugs that stimulate dopamine release) and drugs that act as norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors. In regards to your question about Seroquel - As much as people think APs are the work of the devil, I think that under the proper guidance they can be very effective in combination with SSRIs for social phobia, especially if there is a paranoid component to it (which there usually is).

Hi Michael,
Your post is a little bit confusing.

First, if I follow your advises, I should never uses meds who act on the NE reuptake and the raises of Dopamine...

So if i'm right, the following list of meds are not good for Social phobia and general anxiety as well as panic disorder???

MAOI's : They raises the level of the SE, NE and DA as well as bloking some others things like the alpha1 blockade, D2 blockade, H1 blockade, muscarinic blockade and 5HT2 blockade ... If it's the case, why the Nardil and the Parnate was the only drugs who act directly by giving some relief of my social anxiety ??? Especially the Parnate, who hit more the NE, as far as I know...because I had a lot of high blood pressure problem on it....but it was A WAY more effective than any newer drugs for the SAD and GAD...

TCA's: I'm now trying the Clomipramine, it's the only one TCA with the most potent effect on the Serotonin reuptake...with a metabolite who work on the NE reuptake as well as others bloking effect again on the alpha1, D2,H1,Muscarinic and 5HT2... So I will have to drop out the others TCA's like the Nortyptiline or the Desperamine, just because the blocking power of the NE is a lot more elevated than any others TCA's???

SSRI's: The Paxil is approved by the FDA for the SAG and GAD....but the paxil have some affinity with the bloking effect of the DA...as well as a small D2 bloking effect...it's the only one SSRI to have these effects... For the others recommended SSRI's or the SRNI's like the Zoloft, the Effexor-XR or the Cymbalta, they all have some effect on the NE... and what about the Wellbutrin, who act on the DA???

That's a lot confusing cause a lot of studies exist about abnormalities of a lot of receptors or transporters in the brains on SAD or GAD people...It's seem now that a lot of these studies demontrated different result about the same problem, that's what I call contradiction... I don'T think a small studies implies 32 volunters will make me change my minds about the way I will treat my SAD and the meds I will try...They discover newer things about SAD regulary but the meds never evoluated at the same time and they don't point out to some new target to treat in the brains...that's always the same SE, NE and DA with some blockage effect on others neurotransmitter...Studies about low level of oxycontin exist now for SAD people...now it's seem that the D2 is not anymore a part of a problem...they will discover in a couple of years that finally the SE, NE and DA is not implicated into the SAD or GAD problems??? That's a little bit ridiculous...

The facts is that we have to look into more basic causes... I don't argue about the facts that's SAD or GAD is not linked to a problem of one of the neurotransmitter in the brains, it have to comming from somewhere....but even if it's genetic or not, even if it's a problem inside the brains of the person who suffer from these diseases, the facts are that a lot of people who suffers from SAD or GAD had bad experiences and childhood. The brain adapt himself into this bad experiences and learn to find a way ton encounter the problem... no wonder why SAD is a lot linked into the drugs abuse problems or alcohol problems... That's make the person who suffer from SAD a lot more bitter and bitchy with the others...because a lot of those people are frustrated of their own life and the past experiences....The fact that they was not well treated or well accepted by the others in their chilhood augment the chance for them to became not very friendly and nice... I don't write that all the people who suffer from SAD are like this...but that's my case...frustration can make things more bad, you can trust me...

I'm like that... I suffer from more than 12 years of SAD with GAD, BDD, depression and others co-morbidities that come with all these diseases... I had a bad childhood, no friends to play with me, always alone, a lot anxious at school because I had to avoid a lot of places and a lot of peoples that always laughting about me and hurt me, physically and mentally, just because I was a fat kid... so now i'm 33 years old and I tend to judge a lot the others, that's a normal reflex I think, it's the way I find to feel augment my self-esteem and yes, I know it's not the good way...but i'm like that...I tend to be always negative and I have always something bad to say about someone else...I don't trust anyone, I feel disconnected with the society and the others, I just feel like i'm not a part of this world...and that i'm just sit and look at the parade but I cannott change or do anything...

All of this to say that a good CBT is as good as any drugs or meds to help someone with SAD or GAD...Learn to manage their own stress and anxiety is difficult and it's why we have to cope with these problems and try to find naturals solutions to help us to get more well...the addition of the meds help to stabilise the treatment...and make it work more longer...

Try to forget the past and move on is not always easy... and some meds don't help to stop the negatives thoughts inside our head...that's what I experience now on the Clomipramine... it make me a lot more nostalgic and I always think about my past on it...I suppose this side-effect will dissepear...

If you look into the developpement of the meds industry, in the last 60 years, nothing really improve in the mental illiness treatments... If you look at the newer drugs VS the older drugs like TCA's or MAOI's, nothing is more effective now...and they never find a newer way of work, any new targets to hit in the brains or neurotransmitters and hormones or anything else to treat more well the SAD, GAD or depression...

The newer drugs are just more safe and clean, that's it...but make them more cleaner doesn't make them work better...so it's why oldest drugs often treat more well resistant treatments patients and sometimes oldest drugs like the MAOI's can be the only way to get out of these mental problems... Yes, older drugs can give more side-effects, but no, they are not more dangerous if you take them by following doctor advises... The difference is that the newer drugs will never kill someone if taking in overdose....oldest drugs can kill peoples in overdose...The compagny who produce newer drugs don't want to be sue by family members of someone who die from an overdose of their products...and pay millions of dollars for this mistake... that's the main difference with newer and older drugs...since a lot of older drugs are now generic med...if an old drug kill someone, the small compaghy will just close, that's it... but newer drugs produce by well know compagnies will never be dangerous...

Anyway, all of this to say that we are all different, some people will react well to the SSRI'S or the SRNI's and they will find some relief of the SAD or GAD on them...Others people like me will try everything on-label and off-label to help them to feel more well and control their SAD or GAD but nothing will help them... I'm sure that's we don't have the same problems inside the brains, even if we all suffer from SAD or GAD...you cannot apply one technic to treat someone into everyone...it will be so easy like that...so for me, this kind of studies don't make any change...since the meds will never involve more... We will have soon newer drugs who will act on the SE, NE and DA at the same time, like the older MAOI's but with less side-effect, but i'm sure they will not be more helpfull for SAD or GAD or depression than the SSRI's or the SRNI's or the others drugs like the Remeron or the Wellbutrin or anything else... The fact is that everyone have to try and find their own way to treat themself...sometimes, the period of time to find the good meds combo is more long...it can take years to achieve it...and finally recover completly...sometimes only a partial answer will be reach...I think it's really hard to tell for now what is really implied into the SAD problem...

Well, that's what I think...

For my experience, I tend to say that older drugs work more well than newer ones...but have more side-effects for sure...the rest is not important for me...it's a try and fail process...


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poster:Vincent_QC thread:883142
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20090223/msgs/883201.html