Posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2003, at 9:59:53
In reply to Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 23:18:25
> TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, I suppose it may be a LOT cheaper to just increase the TMG instead of me buying and taking SAM-e....but it seems that a lot of times when you try taking a precursor (i.e. the TMG) instead of the actual 'target' agent (SAM-e) that it doesn't work as well...that something gets 'lost' in the intended conversion process or just doesn't happen as well as it's supposed to.....taking actual SAM-e appears to have a much better effect on me than taking TMG.....
Yes, you will certainly over-ride your body's natural limits if you ingest products rather than precursors. If SAMe works better for you, fine. I'm just suggesting alternatives.
>is this the correct 'flowchart' by the way---TMG>methionine>Sam-e? (taking the SAM-e appears more effective TO ME than what the TMG & methionine were doing).
TMG + homocysteine --> DMG + methionine
methionine + adenosine --> S-adenosyl methionine
DMG is dimethylglycine. Where you see the arrows, there are enzymes. Other nutrients will probably affect the enzyme activities.
> >>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)
> I have no idea, but it's reasonable that there may be a feedback inhibition of SAMe synthesis if there's a lot of it floating around.
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, how would someone know which supps they were taking had such a feedback inhibition process? It would seem that any time someone took supplements on their own that they may be affecting the body's feedback inhibition process....and when/if they stopped taking the particular supp(s), they could be negatively affected because the body may have stopped or at least curtailed its own production of said supp(s)....which makes me hesitant to 'tinker' much on my own?
There's a difference between taking precursors and products, as I mentioned above. Moreover, nearly all of the supps I mention have the effect of enhancing your body's ability to process precursors. That's what the B-vitamins do. That's what the minerals are for.
I generally do not recommend taking products. I recommend precursors (e.g. DLPA, TMG, fish oil), or what are called enzyme cofactors (e.g. B-vitamins), or substances which are key components of enzymes themselves (e.g. minerals).
> Or, add in the "forbidden" supps, one at a time, and see if they do anything.
> >>>>>>>>>I LOVE that---the 'forbidden' Pfeiffer supps....lol...it's like Adam & Eve in the garden, only they're reaching for the forbidden folic acid instead of the apple!!!
There are lots of possibilities. Remember, I also suggested dropping some Pfeiffer recommendations. There is an interaction between inositol and lithium, for example. Maybe the combination doesn't suit you.
> I appreciate that. The reason I raised the issue at all is that you are paying Pfeiffer for advice that isn't working.
> >>>>>>>>>>It may be doing something, although apparently NOT according to their theory....it may be helping but it's definitely NOT because of lowered histamine levels.
Right. What matters is how you feel, not whether their theory has been validated. There are a some fringe theories about the value of eating a super-fresh vegetarian diet, under the argument that there are special "vibrations" in those veggies. However, I doubt the health benefits really arise from vibrations, even if a person is healthier on such a diet.
> All I can offer you is another form of advice. It may or may not be of any value to you, either.
> >>>>>>>>>> Your advice is ALWAYS very valuable to me Lar! I've learned a LOT from reading your posts on this board (I save many of them on my 'puter).
Please give similar consideration to your own experience. What works or doesn't work for you is not based on my advice. It's based on your own experience.
> Combining SAMe with SJW (and, presumably, while you're still on Remeron) would require careful monitoring. It can be done. It's a dose issue.
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, would SJW cancel out the need(purpose) of taking SAM-e? In other words, take enough SJW (in conjunction with the Remeron of course) and then the SAM-e isn't necessary? Or does SAM-e possess a mood-enhancing effect that SJW does not have?
I have no doubt that they have different effects. Whether you will "need" SAMe any longer, with SJW, can only be determined by experiment.
>I PREFER to take AS FEW of the "KEY" pills/supps that I can to get the same desired effect (i.e., I'd rather take EITHER choice (1) Remeron + Sjw OR (2) Remeron + SAM-e.
There's your hypothesis. Do the experiment.
> Any thoughts on which combo might be more effective?
Nope. Though I lean towards SJW.
> If you decide to try adding in SJW, just make sure that you are familiar with the early signs of serotonin syndrome, in case it becomes an issue for you, and your unique metabolism.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>OK, I understand that.....but wouldn't Remeron + SJW have a VERY low chance of producing serotonin syndrome, since Remeron + an SSRI is allowable?
Low probability, but not zero. If I've learned anything from discussions on Babble, it's that anything can happen. Anticipating adverse events is part of informed consent, IMHO.
>Again Lar, THANKS for all your help! IF I can use Rem/SJW or Rem/SAM-e for my anti-dep. that would be HUGE! Saying adios for good to SSRI's would be a godsend! TAKE CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get a plan, and give it a try.