![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on July 16, 2008, at 23:46:04
I was listening to a book about history today, and thinking of the truly horrific conditions my ancestors lived under. And the truly horrific conditions so many people have lived under. Conditions where it wouldn't really be all that hard to die. Conditions they had no real chance or hope of escaping. Conditions they probably expected, rightly, to live under for the whole of their not terribly long lives.
Yet people choose to fight on and persevere.
I don't get it.
It's always in the back of my mind that if things get too bad, I can always die. I can't wrap my mind around people living through things way worse than my "too bad" would likely ever be, and struggling to survive.
I recognize that I'm rather avoidant and in some ways lacking in will. I crumple at the first challenge.
But I really really don't understand.
Posted by Sigismund on July 16, 2008, at 23:58:48
In reply to Why do people persevere?, posted by Dinah on July 16, 2008, at 23:46:04
Dostoevsky said something like....
Man is a creature who will get used to anything, and that is the best definition of him.And (of course) they don't all persevere, hey?
They die, of this or that, kill themselves through acting unwisely, kill themselves outright.I have no idea how people survive in this world.
What do you think of the idea that happiness comes from lowering your expectations (all other methods having failed)?
(I managed a laugh out of that.)
Posted by Sigismund on July 17, 2008, at 0:08:24
In reply to Why do people persevere?, posted by Dinah on July 16, 2008, at 23:46:04
I see. You've been reading history. That's my cure fore depression.
What I would like to do is to *sell* the books I've read.I realised I'd gone too far when I found I had bought 2 copies of "The Origins of the Final Solution" by Christopher Browning (new argument, very important etc etc) which I guess I had read at different times, though that fact escaped me until I saw them together.
Maybe Phillipa could show me how to sell them on ebay?
On reflection, that is just silly. One of my few enjoyments is telling people I am too cognatively impaired to use a mobile phone.
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2008, at 0:23:21
In reply to Re: Why do people persevere?, posted by Sigismund on July 17, 2008, at 0:08:24
Yes, history is quite good for curing self pity.
Specifically today we were hearing (books on tape) about the Egyptian empire and those hard workers who spent their time hauling humonguous stones along primitive pulley systems to build the pyramids for their king.
But it led me to think of my many serf ancestors. Poor ragged wretches living in pathetic huts that would be periodically set ablaze by this lord or that fighting over control of their little part of the world. Having to grab their belongings and run for the castle, then hobble out to rebuild while their masters demanded more and more to pay for all their wars. All the raping and pillaging and death. And if they survived that there was the fact that a quarter of women died in childbirth. A small percent of babies made it to adulthood. The plague, smallpox, yellow fever. Bodies everywhere.
I try to remember that they had all the normal small joys. Falling in love, getting married, baby's first step, finding a turnip the pillagers overlooked, small triumphs and failures. The comfort of the magical words of a Mass in Latin. The comfort of alcohol. Never forget that one.
I try to remember that they really didn't have anything to compare it to. That they were born to this, fully expected to die to it. That they noticed it no more than we notice what to future generations may be the discomforts and misery of our world today.
Yet I wonder what sort of fortitude and spirit it took for these people to survive. To even want to survive and procreate. And I wonder where on earth it went, because I sure don't have it. All of the me's of prior generations would have cocked up their toes long before passing on their genes. So how did I come to be?
Posted by Sky Brite Line on July 17, 2008, at 1:22:39
In reply to Why do people persevere?, posted by Dinah on July 16, 2008, at 23:46:04
i get things done, i procastinate, but anger and anxiety drive me. Anger why i have limitation and publicly been humilated. I work much better with people that understand, and want to help. Leaving.......someone that has a disorder...kinda like leaving a kid to fix something complicated.
tremndous anger.... to be ready now for anyone who attacks me, verbally, emotionally. I was once had a good life, and that was the happist time of life. Today, i'm left as scrap, dad left, mom is gone for a while, I got orphaned.... But really, some of genetics, such as fear which runs in my family can cause the same thing to happen. But there is a term that is called "sh*t happens, get used it" thats not a term as an insult, i made up myself to tell people that "sh*t happens".
Here a joke: So whats happening in your life?: mmm basically sh*t.
I know that sounds trash-like, and it was used to be profane, but thats a rough like view of a bad life. But that is what has gotten me to awnser my question: why?
Adapting....is just 70%, taking control is 100% of every aspect your in.
Life's easier today because, its modern
Fear i think, and inferiority have something with this situation, or main issue. Life is hard...and i know it. Outthinking it, makes it easier.
-Coldness is the world, give it back a dish that is served cold.
Posted by Tabitha on July 17, 2008, at 2:07:32
In reply to Why do people persevere?, posted by Dinah on July 16, 2008, at 23:46:04
I wonder that, too. Maybe the answer is in memoirs of African American slaves or Holocaust survivors.
I guess humans are pretty resilient as a species.
Posted by daveuk08 on July 17, 2008, at 3:36:47
In reply to Re: Why do people persevere? » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on July 17, 2008, at 2:07:32
Existance is the only word that comes to mind.
Dave
Posted by Lemonaide on July 17, 2008, at 7:12:17
In reply to Why do people persevere?, posted by Dinah on July 16, 2008, at 23:46:04
I believe that they knew of nothing better, this is their life and you do what you can in the circumstances. It does make you stronger, facing adversities, soon stronger adversities become bearable because you are stronger.
Even with living this way, you still have your mind, and that can create comfort, you have your families and the cycle of life that brings some joys. They had music way back then that helped them. Even though they life to us looks horrible, they still had some good stuff too. Stuff maybe that nowadays we don't appreciate enough.
Then there is the "we are in this together" that brings together people.
I do believe some of have it easy now days but society has taught us to become weak. There are still people living in those horrible conditions, even now, and yet they have survived, or I should say the strongest out of those old colonies have survived. Evolutions plays a role also of the species, the stronger still survive, while the weaker die. Stronger isn't always physical strength, it can be mental or even genetic advantages.
Back then people didn't normally live to be in the 70's, 30 was old age. So I believe they did survive but overall the hard life did shorten their life expectancy. But I am sure they had their comforts, maybe not the same comforts we would consider today.
Even today, Americans do have it nice in area's of comfort that others in other countries can only dream of or live without even knowing.But I have a feeling if the average citizen of a comfort country had to go against the average citizen of "harsh living" country, both with the same weapons, and physical strength, the harsh living people would be eventually win due to there strength from living in harsh conditions. But this is just what I believe, I don't know if there any right answers in all of this.
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2008, at 9:47:32
In reply to Re: Why do people persevere?, posted by Sky Brite Line on July 17, 2008, at 1:22:39
Maybe anger does help. The fight response, in contrast to the flight response. I'm a fleer. So I don't understand the fighter more than a bunny would.
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2008, at 9:54:23
In reply to Re: Why do people persevere? » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on July 17, 2008, at 2:07:32
I've read accounts of holocaust survivors. I'm still bemused.
It's the helplessness of it all. I suppose people had rituals that gave them the illusion of control. Or dreams and hopes that someday things will change. Even my ancestors probably remembered days when there was peace in the land, or fair or benignly neglectful overlords. Or long periods of time without massive epidemics.
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2008, at 9:55:34
In reply to Re: Why do people persevere?, posted by daveuk08 on July 17, 2008, at 3:36:47
Why is survival such a strong impulse though? I can see it in animals who act purely on instinct. But why is the instinct so strong in humans?
Posted by sassyfrancesca on July 17, 2008, at 10:15:38
In reply to Why do people persevere?, posted by Dinah on July 16, 2008, at 23:46:04
I cannot answer for other people, but for me I must persevere; giving up isn't in my nature.
I call myself an overcomer and wounded-healer, and am so resilient. If I were not, I might be drooling in a corner somewhere.
Case in point: Grew up with a mentally and physically violent mother; never knew my father; extreme poverty: No phone, car, refrigerator or bathroom; molested by a drunken neighbor; had my hand held over an open fire by another drunken neighbor. Lived in a 120-year old tenement house w/cockroaches and rats, etc., etc.
Joined the army right out of high school. "Married" my original abuser (mother) and tried to fix the past. After 31 years of abuse, got a divorce....then experienced a kind of abuse I'd never heard of:
Spiritual (abuse) my church of 31 years voted me out of membership, with my name up on a big screen, followed by the words: "Conduct Unbecoming a Child of God." I fought the system for 18 months...the end result? www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com
In other words, I have always been able to make something positive come out of the ugliness of a lifetime of abuse.
I've written my memoir
Published in a psychiatric journal
Counsel abused women
Started school at age 61 and won a scholarship
For 10 years have been trying to get the message out there regarding verbal abuse. It affects 1 out of every 3 women in the country.
Joined the American Counseling Association and went to the Convention in Hawaii alone.
Submitted my paper on verbal abuse for next year's convention at the urging of the executive editor.
etc., etc.....why do I persevere? What is my alternative? Giving up. It is not part of my personality.I am now (being in a financial crisis) trying to get a counseling website going to bring in money so i won't starve, LOL.....I will call myself an Advocate for the emotionally abused. It is scary, but I have to do something.
Hugs, Sassy
I think people persevere because the alternative is so much worse. The human race would die if we didn't keep on keepin' on!
The most amazing perseverence I ever heard of was about my ancestor, Captain Sam (America's Oldest Bravest Soldier); he was 86 whe he fought the British; killed 3 of them; they beat him, stabbed him, shot off half his face, and he lived to be 97 years old!
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2008, at 10:18:16
In reply to Re: Why do people persevere?, posted by sassyfrancesca on July 17, 2008, at 10:15:38
Giving up is very much in my nature.
Clearly not a useful trait for perpetuating the species.
And yet I'm here. How did that come to be? Why didn't all my giving up ancestors die too young to have children, given that their circumstances were so horrible?
Posted by sassyfrancesca on July 17, 2008, at 10:21:40
In reply to Re: Why do people persevere? » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on July 17, 2008, at 9:54:23
...was (my ancestor): Captain Sam Whittemore; you ca find his story on the internet: "America's Oldest Bravest Soldier."
He was 86 years old just before the Revolutionary War (June 1776)....he went out and fought the British; killed 3 of them. They beat him, stabbed him, bayoneted him 14 times, shot off half of his face, and still he fought on.
He didn't die (miraculously!). He lived to be 97 years old! He is my hero!
I am thinking I have his genes....I persevered through a lifetime of abuse (except for 3 years in the army). www.psychiatricjournal.com, entitled: The Transcendent Child on Overcoming Verbal and Spiritual Abuse
It's all in my memoir!
The alternative to not persevering is giving up; I've never been able to do that; it didn't work too well in living with an abuser for 36 years, but I finally got that that kind of perseverence was not a good thing, LOL, LOL
Sassy
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2008, at 10:27:53
In reply to Re: Why do people persevere? » Dinah, posted by Lemonaide on July 17, 2008, at 7:12:17
I think of severe hardship as a crucible.
You may have heard my theories on the crucible before.
Many pieces of clay go through the crucible and come out cracked but serviceable enough. Some pieces shatter. And some pieces come out whole, and stronger and harder than ever they would have had they not gone through the crucible.
But saying the crucible is a good thing, a strengthening thing, is ignoring all the cracked and shattered pieces.
My crucible wasn't so very hot. Yet I am cracked. Were my crucible more intense, I've no doubt I'd have shattered.
How did my ancestors get through that? I know that in the far far distant past, it was good for the tribe to keep around a few highly sensitive or very intelligent clanspeople even if they weren't terribly strong or brave. They could help figure things out, or pick up small changes that allowed them to "predict" the future. So the tribe made sure they were fed and watered because they were useful.
That was less true of my less far far back ancestors. I'm not so sure that it was of immense value in the middle ages. So how did the people like me survive?
I'm having increasing wishes that I was dead. Not that I'm suicidal or anything, I'm not. But more and more as the stress and anxiety and hopelessness builds up I think of death. Not because I'm depressed, but because I'm a coward. In this day and age, I'd have to go out of my way to die. In those days, you didn't so much. It'd have been pretty easy to die. So I still wonder why they lived?
Posted by Phillipa on July 17, 2008, at 12:22:07
In reply to Re: Why do people persevere? » Lemonaide, posted by Dinah on July 17, 2008, at 10:27:53
Something I sense is wrong do you feel like sharing? Love Phillipa late on the thread
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2008, at 18:05:50
In reply to Re: Why do people persevere? » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on July 17, 2008, at 12:22:07
Nothing new. The same old mother problems. And I've been sick so much lately that work has piled up worse than usual. And I'm still not at the level of energy and concentration that I usually am lately, which of course if far less than it was many years ago.
Seems stupid when I write it down. But it all piles up and makes me want to go away.
Thanks for asking, Phillipa.
Posted by Phillipa on July 17, 2008, at 21:22:30
In reply to Re: Why do people persevere? » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on July 17, 2008, at 18:05:50
Dinah you're welcome was concerned. Love Phillipa
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on July 19, 2008, at 23:40:51
In reply to Why do people persevere?, posted by Dinah on July 16, 2008, at 23:46:04
Well, I dont mean to sound all Darwin-esque here, but I think a combination of genetic and personal skills make the answer. Before I got dxd with depression, I could do almost anything. I was a 19 year old who had a weight problem of being 6 foot 240 lbs. I said enough. So, I would go for 3 hour walks in the middle of snowstorms, every single night, for months on end, restrict my calories, and I got down to 145lbs. Now, Its all rebounded on me since starting psych meds, but I have a *major* problem with hormones, with testosterone. My doc is quite sure that once we get the testosterone up, my weight will come down a fair bit. But, I just started over the last week. I had a testosterone reading of 5. The normal reading is between 14-3014 still being at the lowest level. If I could get in the high 20s, I could be a lean, rockin machine, with lots of nice libido again. (ohhh..how I miss that. :(
So, I dont know, its a combo of many factors. I was told I was dumb as a kid, yet I have a university education with an A average, a very good job. The meds help with my learning disability (had it since birth), but I usually write others off AS THE ONES WHO have a disabilitylol. There is a beautiful song by the band Yes called Without Hope (You Cannot Start The Day), and it is soooooo true. Little bits of something, I try to grab on to tiny little pieces just to make a wee bit of some hope each day, no matter how hopeless I feel.Well, from this cornerthats my verbal hot air..lol
Jay
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.