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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on March 18, 2007, at 0:34:36
I think I miss it, even if it terrifies me. I'm not talking about "just" sex, it is more than that. Since I've been separated, there is no one to hold me, and no one to wrap myself around when I feel bad. As bad as things were between my husband and myself, I think being held every now and then had value.My son gives great hugs. But it isn't enough. Or maybe I just don't really know what I need. It could be an overall need to be taken care of and being held symbolizes that.
The thing is, I HATE to be touched. I'm one of those awkward huggers, I usually stick my hand out to avoid someone grabbing me. How do people get good at that? Or more comfortable?
This feels like one of those oxy morons - I miss being held but don't touch me.
*sigh*
Posted by Racer on March 18, 2007, at 2:08:20
In reply to Can we talk about touch?, posted by Daisym on March 18, 2007, at 0:34:36
Aw, sweetheart, it's not an oxymoron at all. In fact, it turns out it's not even that uncommon. In the book "Wasted" by Marya Hornbacher, she talks about hating to be hugged *because* she wants it so much. That's kinda how I feel.
Humans do need touch. It's like the monkey experiments -- the babies who didn't get touched, died. The babies with a choice between food and holding the terrycloth "mother" chose the soft, cuddly "mother." It's part of your evolutionary make up. And, considering you history, it's also not surprising that you're not comfortable with it.
What about your cat? My cat was my snuggle buddy, and that was always so good. Can you get some of your need met by your pusscat?
I know it's not about sex, and it doesn't have to be. Maybe just snuggling with a friend? Or a cat? I don't know what else to suggest. But I understand and empathize with you.
Posted by annierose on March 18, 2007, at 7:48:34
In reply to Can we talk about touch?, posted by Daisym on March 18, 2007, at 0:34:36
I know what you mean. I do find myself cuddling with my children more. Last night, my daughter massaged my head --- it felt so good.
I remember you saying that you didn't like professional massages. Have you ever tried a hot stone massage? For me, the stone acts as a barrier between me and the masseur so I can enjoy those. The more I get these, the more I relax and really sink into the moment.
Human touch is such a basic need. But when that trust has been violated it's hard to trust the intentions of the other person.
Posted by Phillipa on March 18, 2007, at 16:07:30
In reply to Re: Can we talk about touch?, posted by annierose on March 18, 2007, at 7:48:34
Well I haven't been taken advantage of in my eyes and I love to tough others learned as a nurse ask first and then establish touch to do a proceedure to the patient they seem to relax. And I like snuggling the best. Love Phillipa AA and places like that do a lot of hugging for support and caring. And I miss Lar's big bear hugs.
Posted by Kath on March 18, 2007, at 16:21:28
In reply to Can we talk about touch?, posted by Daisym on March 18, 2007, at 0:34:36
Awwww. I'm sorry.
What about 'virtual hugs' ((((this kind)))
You know, I KNOW they're not real, but when people do that, it always feels nice. Just wondering because I was going to give you one, but didn't want to trivialize your feelings.
And yeah....I know what you mean....sex is totally different.
I am very happily remarried. BUT in my former marriage there was lots of cuddling sleeping. We'd spoon against each other. Whoever turned, the other person turned & spooned again.
This marriage (13 years old now) is with someone who wasn't married before & who WANTS TO SLEEP. He's used to sleeping alone & THAT's what he wants to do ..... sleep!!!!! And to him, that generally doesn't include much in the way of touching. CERTAINLY not spooning!!! :'(
SO ....that's been a huge adjustment for me.
I have read that Caesarian section birth folks need WAY more holding; touching than normal birthed people. I was C section so maybe that explains what I feel is a big need for holding.
I have a friend & we will say "hey wanna cuddle?" if we're at either person's house. She is single; & I'm cuddle deprived, so it works...felt really weird at first, but now it's comfortable.
But for you, who is also uncomfortable about being held, it poses quite a challenge.
I send you my loving thoughts anyhow.
Kath
Posted by Iwillsurvive on March 18, 2007, at 23:36:43
In reply to Can we talk about touch?, posted by Daisym on March 18, 2007, at 0:34:36
My chest hurt when I looked at the header on this thread. I was kinda worried bout reading it, I was ready to x it away fast as need be.
But it was OK.
Thats exactly what my little inside kid says, touch, don't touch me. She's dying to be touched, but absolutely terrified. Occasionally my T will accidentally touch me, and I mebbe flinch or something (I asked her what I do, but then she went away on hols, I still await an answer on what it is I do when touched, cuz I obvo do something cuz she notices and says sorry).
And yet I hug people downtown that others would be reluctant to hug???? Mostly I automatically immediately dissociate w/touch, its instant, but once in awhile there's a hug thats just so, and I FEEL it, oh its SO wonderful! But it don't happen very often. Very rare. Usu just a blank out.
I think pets are great for touch, dunno why, but it feels real good to hug my dog.
And I definately think some need touch more than others. My son is not fond of touch mostly, my daughter is totally touchy.
I dunno even what I'm saying, I'm freaking myself out a bit, cuz just the word kinda bugs me.
Sorry.
But there seems to be some good suggestions on other posts.
I don't think I need touch much myself.
But I dunno.
Itsa bit of a minefield isn't it.
Take care.
Sorryn this is garbled, but I am OK
Posted by Kath on March 19, 2007, at 11:21:23
In reply to Re: Can we talk about touch?, posted by Iwillsurvive on March 18, 2007, at 23:36:43
Dear Iwillsurvive,
I'm sorry you have so much pain around the touch issue.
I find it interesting that your 2 children are different with regard to touch.
It does seem to be an individual thing.
luv, Kath
Posted by scratchpad on March 19, 2007, at 12:43:02
In reply to Can we talk about touch?, posted by Daisym on March 18, 2007, at 0:34:36
My yoga teacher used to end a class by having me hug myself and rock gently back and forth. It's a sweet and loving feeling. If I do it more often I might start to believe in it.
There aren't enough hugs in the world.Scratchpad
formerly ClearSkies
Posted by Kath on March 19, 2007, at 14:13:38
In reply to Re: Can we talk about touch? » Daisym, posted by scratchpad on March 19, 2007, at 12:43:02
What a lovely thing to do!!!
Thanks for telling us.
hugs, Kath
Posted by Dinah on March 19, 2007, at 17:11:11
In reply to Can we talk about touch?, posted by Daisym on March 18, 2007, at 0:34:36
As you know, I have similar issues.
Standing and giving a hug is so awkward to me that I would just as soon never ever do it, although a cousin of mine gave me a great bearhug that felt just right. But that's one hug out of how many? I don't know how people get good at that. They must have fewer body parts, because it seems like one or another of mine is always in the wrong place.
You're a cat person, right? One of my favorite types of touch is lying in bed surrounded by warm furry bodies. Or even just one curled up under my arm.
I think that with the exception of my husband, pets would be the best bet for contact for me.
Posted by 10derHeart on March 19, 2007, at 17:47:52
In reply to Can we talk about touch?, posted by Daisym on March 18, 2007, at 0:34:36
No, actually, I can't talk about it. Not so far. Not IRL ever, or even in T. except to dance around it. So uncanny you should bring this up just now.
I think my last 2.5 years of therapy has probably been circling around this issue - that what is essentially "wrong" with me, and leads to depressive episodes and most other MH problems at this point in my life - is the lack of this. And what that means to me - all the whys around believing very bad things about being lovable or touchable any more. It's not just the lack of any primary relationship with a SO (the pain of which I've just recently been able to even speak of out loud to my T.) but specifically the idea that I think *adults* also, in a sense, wither up and die (at least part of us) without being touched :-(
> I think I miss it, even if it terrifies me.
That must be so confusing sometimes. I mean, I'll bet you can intellectually understand it, but emotionally, that push-pull, love-hate, want-don't want - Lord, it's just exhausting to experience, no doubt. We have very different pasts, Daisy, but somehow I get this so well when you write it. I'm not terrified of it - that I know of- yet still, I get it.
>Since I've been separated, there is no one to hold me, and no one to wrap myself around when I feel bad.
Yes. It's been since October 1995 for me. I try not to think about it - ever. But that quit working a while back. And even in that three year relationship (which ended by me getting dumped in a voice mail in Dec '95) I wasn't *really* being held or touched out of love - lust, maybe, but that's all. Sad. So, who knows how long, really? It's a concept so distressing, some protective, authority-voice says, "This we do NOT think or talk about."
>As bad as things were between my husband and myself, I think being held every now and then had value.
Of course it did. It still does its work, its magic on us, physiologically and emotionally, even if the relationship with the person overall isn't what it should be. One of those times where the brain makes no distinctions, but just takes what it needs to keep us healthier?
> My son gives great hugs. But it isn't enough.Yup. So does my grown daughter (she did learn to be physically affectionate from me, I'm proud to say) and my closer friends at church. But it's never enough. It's not on the same level of intimacy we crave. And I find it's a painful reminder of what I really want/need, you know?
>Or maybe I just don't really know what I need. It could be an overall need to be taken care of and being held symbolizes that.
Well, it may symbolize that in a bigger way, true, but it also *is* that - literally. I think in a close, loving, healthy marriage, taking care of each other naturally includes lots of loving touches of all sorts. Not sure exactly how I know this must be true, but I do
> The thing is, I HATE to be touched. I'm one of those awkward huggers, I usually stick my hand out to avoid someone grabbing me. How do people get good at that? Or more comfortable?Well, maybe, practice, practice, practice? I'm not completely comfortable, but because my circle of friends does this *all the time,* it's grown on me - slowly, but it has gotten easier. I dunno. I like to be touched, nearly always, unless someone I don't know well catches me off guard. Then I may recoil and get a bit defensive. Depending on each of our past experiences, I'd imagine it would be much harder, much more frightening and potentially triggery for some than for others.
> This feels like one of those oxy morons - I miss being held but don't touch me.
Yeah, like I said above, so da*n confusing to want it both ways. To move one way or the other seems almost impossible. More touching - too scary, can't stand it, don't want it. Less touching - stay feeling isolated, longing and unsoothed (if that isn't a word it should be!)
> *sigh*
I join your sigh, Daisy, I really do. This issue is *gigantic* for me and I'm glad you brought it up.
Posted by Kath on March 19, 2007, at 19:46:41
In reply to Re: Can we talk about touch? » Daisym, posted by 10derHeart on March 19, 2007, at 17:47:52
I would like to thank all of you who have been so open & vulnerable about his.
love, Kath
Posted by Daisym on March 19, 2007, at 20:24:01
In reply to Re: Can we talk about touch?, posted by Kath on March 19, 2007, at 19:46:41
This is definately not one of those things that I can say "I'm glad it isn't just me" about. It is so sad to not have safe touch in our lives. I think adults *do* wither some without touch.
My therapist and I talked about this some today, about how masterbation isn't the answer nor is sex really even the question. Which of course took us away from the topic into abuse issues - but still. He wondered if massage/holding therapies might eventually help. And he said that he thought I needed someone to be tender with me - touching or not. It was a sweet thing to say, poignant, kind of.
I'm leaving for a conference in a few days. Way too many people there who will want to hug me. I'm thinking of making one of those circles with a line through it for my name badge. Think people will get it?
Posted by 10derHeart on March 19, 2007, at 23:51:15
In reply to Re: Can we talk about touch?, posted by Kath on March 19, 2007, at 19:46:41
Posted by Kath on March 21, 2007, at 16:56:32
In reply to Re: Can we talk about touch?, posted by Daisym on March 19, 2007, at 20:24:01
> He wondered if massage/holding therapies might eventually help. And he said that he thought I needed someone to be tender with me - touching or not. It was a sweet thing to say, poignant, kind of.
***********that made me think of a Hawaiian (sp?) form of massage that I had many years ago. It was called Lomi Lomi & would totally freak out anyone with touch issues I'm sure. It was pretty weird, but I did some amazing emotional healing about some emotions that came up during the treatment.****
> I'm leaving for a conference in a few days. Way too many people there who will want to hug me. I'm thinking of making one of those circles with a line through it for my name badge. Think people will get it?********Jeez I think I'd make up something more specific if you really plan to do a badge.
Maybe something like:I welcome a gentle handshake. Hugs aggravate a medical condition :')
Or you could put physical instead of medical. The thing is, I guess you'd have to be ready for people to ask you about it. If you decide to do it, & want to explore how you'd reply, I'd be happy to discuss it!
love, Kath
PS my 30 yr old daughter has Multiple Chemical Sensitivities. She reacts VERY badly to scents...handcreams, hair products, aftershave, perfume, the smell of laundry detergents on people's clothes & (a really bad one) scented dryer sheet smells on people's clothes. Our society is SOOOOOOOOO polluted by scents. I had no idea how bad it is until she developed this problem. If she goes out, she has to wear a mask. She wouldn't even be able to go to a conference! Anyway, having this situation in our family, I'm used to trying to solve situations that involve contact with others.
Kath
Posted by Kath on March 21, 2007, at 17:16:56
In reply to That was a lovely thing to say ((Kath)) (nm) » Kath, posted by 10derHeart on March 19, 2007, at 23:51:15
Thanks. I truly meant it.
I want to apologize ahead of time & let you all know that my memory is bad.
If I end my posts with hugs, or do (((( ))))
I don't mean to upset anyone. I tend to do that, & I am afraid I will forget who is uncomfortable or not.If it would REALLY bother you, please let me know & I'll try to put a 'sticky' paper on the computer screen or some way of reminding myself.
luv to all, Kath
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