![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on April 18, 2004, at 13:45:33
Sometimes it masquerades as agoraphobic tendencies. And sometimes I can separate enough from the fear that I'm not even aware of it. But sometimes it seems painfully obvious.
Like when I went to my son's activity yesterday and slid through the crowd trying to avoid anyone who looked familiar, and sat as far away as I possibly could trying to look invisible. I try to look invisible a lot. I sometimes think I don't mind being fat because fat plain people are invisible to most others.
So I think I'm going to give some thought to whether I'm really mildly agoraphobic or if I'm a social phobic instead. The funny thing is that I have no awareness of fear, just aversion.
Posted by Ilene on April 18, 2004, at 17:51:22
In reply to I really *am* socially phobic, I think., posted by Dinah on April 18, 2004, at 13:45:33
I think that depends on what you mean by socially phobic. Sometimes I do the same thing because I feel too depressed or foggy to deal with other people, not because I am fearful. I don't feel like I have the tools at the moment to deal with a social situation, but I'm not frightened. I would just prefer to avoid it. When I'm not depressed (that doesn't happen too much) I feel sociable.
Posted by zeugma on April 18, 2004, at 18:19:38
In reply to I really *am* socially phobic, I think., posted by Dinah on April 18, 2004, at 13:45:33
I wasn't aware that i was socially phobic until many of my other anxieties were under more control.
I would think wanting to look invisible would be diagnostic of social phobia. Wearing any kind of clothing that is at all attention-getting has brought me to the edge of panic on many occasions. One time I was wearing a shirt that a friend had bought for me, which was much more colorful than anything I would buy for myself. At work that day i had a panic attack while talking to my supervisor, who wound up instructing me to 'breathe deeply' (she was very sympathetic about it- but it was still humiliating).
sometimes I wish that I felt aversion from others, instead of fear. Then I would avoid others by choice.
Posted by Dinah on April 18, 2004, at 18:33:46
In reply to Re: I really *am* socially phobic, I think., posted by Ilene on April 18, 2004, at 17:51:22
I can't say I *ever* feel sociable. I'm so introverted that I'm surprised I'm not inside out. So I ordinarily figure I'm just being introverted. But the lengths I'm going to and the depth of my aversion make me wonder if I'm not more frightened than I realize.
My therapist and I have spoken several times about my belief that my offering people anything from caring to a brief chat is intrusive and the equivilant of offering them something icky and slimy. So maybe that's it. But then again, maybe not.
I certainly have no problem expressing my opinion if I feel strongly about something.
I think my feelings about being around other people are wrapped in so many layers, it may be impossible to find what is at the bottom of them.
Posted by Dinah on April 18, 2004, at 18:35:59
In reply to Re: I really *am* socially phobic, I think., posted by zeugma on April 18, 2004, at 18:19:38
I have no real problem wearing bright colors. But then I find I'm relatively invisible even in bright colors.
But trendy clothing is something I can't bring myself to wear. I can wear fuschia and still feel invisible. I wear cropped pants and feel like I'm wearing a neon sign.
Obviously there are some dysfunctional thoughts involved here.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2004, at 21:08:44
In reply to I really *am* socially phobic, I think., posted by Dinah on April 18, 2004, at 13:45:33
Dinah,
I do the same thing at times. Sometimes I just don't feel like being social. I avoid the phone, back out on parties I've said I will attend, and other similar things. I'm worse when it comes to dealing with groups of strangers. I have been known to drive across the state for a conference only to stay in my hotel room for one of the days with a "migraine". Truly I was just overwhelmed and could not stand the idea of another day of networking. Now that I am on an MAOI, it's better, but not totally gone.gg
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2004, at 9:08:06
In reply to Re: I really *am* socially phobic, I think., posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2004, at 21:08:44
I'd think that more if I *ever* felt sociable. But it might be a sort of conditioned learning thing that I need to overcome. Easier said than done though.
Maybe I'll start by calling my "best" IRL friend, who I haven't spoken to in over two years.
G*d, I'm depressed today..
Posted by All Done on April 19, 2004, at 9:30:55
In reply to Re: I really *am* socially phobic, I think. » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2004, at 9:08:06
Posted by octopusprime on April 19, 2004, at 10:13:23
In reply to Re: I really *am* socially phobic, I think. » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2004, at 9:08:06
well i'm glad to know that i'm not the only one here that doesn't call her friends.
dinah i wonder where the line is between preferring solitude and dysfunction. i generally despise small talk, so i do tend to hang by myself / want to be invisible in social situations where the conversations tend to "how's the weather?" and "how about <local sports franchaise>" ... i would imagine that a function for your son would be filled with that kind of conversation ...
and i would rather stay home by myself and read a book than socialize with the plastic drunks with no thoughts in their heads on saturday nights. and i don't feel bad about that either.
and i'm not the kind of person who calls up my friends without something to say. usually an invitation to an event where i don't want to attend by myself. and those are some rare events indeed ...
and i wonder how truly socially phobic you can be if you can tolerate your husband, son, parents, coworkers, vet, and internet buddies without feeling kind of homicidal ... i'm happy i live alone and get ample alone time ...
i usually find that being at work is enough social interaction for one day, and i follow more solitary pursuits to recover.
just some rambly thoughts ...
Posted by Penny on April 19, 2004, at 10:33:12
In reply to Re: I really *am* socially phobic, I think., posted by octopusprime on April 19, 2004, at 10:13:23
> well i'm glad to know that i'm not the only one here that doesn't call her friends.
>i'm happy i live alone and get ample alone time ...
Me too. :-)
P
Posted by spoc on April 19, 2004, at 17:24:56
In reply to Re: I really *am* socially phobic, I think., posted by Penny on April 19, 2004, at 10:33:12
> > well i'm glad to know that i'm not the only one here that doesn't call her friends.
>
> >i'm happy i live alone and get ample alone time ...
>
> Me too. :-)
>
> PMe three! It varies episodically but always an underlying need to recharge batteries alone, maybe for hours; often for days; lately -- over a year! NEVER feel lonely when alone, biggest downside just fear of regrets someday. No phobia, just more natural to be alone, and often too inward-looking to handle a phone call, even when in a good mood. You know, I kind of turn this into something to be a little proud of in a way, especially as a female. That no one has or would ever call me needy or clingy! ;- )
Posted by zeugma on April 19, 2004, at 17:52:46
In reply to Re: I really *am* socially phobic, I think., posted by spoc on April 19, 2004, at 17:24:56
> > > well i'm glad to know that i'm not the only one here that doesn't call her friends.
> >
> > >i'm happy i live alone and get ample alone time ...
> >
> > Me too. :-)
> >
> > P
>
> Me three! It varies episodically but always an underlying need to recharge batteries alone, maybe for hours; often for days; lately -- over a year! NEVER feel lonely when alone, biggest downside just fear of regrets someday. No phobia, just more natural to be alone, and often too inward-looking to handle a phone call, even when in a good mood. You know, I kind of turn this into something to be a little proud of in a way, especially as a female. That no one has or would ever call me needy or clingy! ;- )
I rarely call my friends too. i'm not much for small talk.My CB therapist told me that although males and females apparently suffer in equal numbers from social phobia, it's mostly men who seek treatment for it. Men are judged harshly by society if they appear too timid to talk to anyone.
>
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2004, at 17:57:51
In reply to Re: I really *am* socially phobic, I think., posted by octopusprime on April 19, 2004, at 10:13:23
And I don't know that they add up to social phobia or something else.
My very early years were spent on an isolated farm without playmates and I grew up to be an introverted dreamer of a child always in my own little world. But not the tiniest bit shy.
Sixth through ninth grades, I was the designated picked on kid and pretty much learned that social contact brought intense pain. That for some reason (oh, I dunno, smart nerdy skinny long dirty hair too long skirts never pressed added to dreamy introvert with an eccentric viewpoint plunked down in a bunch of middle school girls) I was socially unacceptable. Although I did make a friend that I have to this day, though I don't see her much.
Tenth and twelth grades (but not eleventh) my body was taken over by an outgoing socially acceptable (at least marginally) giddy-happy alien who was really delighted with her budding sexuality. I want Happy Dinah back. So does my husband. ;) I haven't actually made an IRL friend since twelth grade. Although one adopted me.
My mother is the pushiest woman imaginable. No idea of personal space. People back away from her. People ask me to tell her to back off, or leave them alone, or to tell her what to quit saying to them. I refuse, of course.
Added together to create me. I feel that there is something slimy and icky about me. Something that it is indescribably rude to foist onto others. And I am so careful not to bother anyone with talk or eye contact or social discourse or common courtesy that I can be enormously rude. And I know it and I can't stop it. Sometimes I'm ok, but sometimes all the will and dissociation in the world can't force me to be social with others.
Is that social phobia or something else? In addition to the introversion, which I have no real problem being.
Oh, and when I wrote that I hadn't contacted my IRL friend in over two years a little bell went off for me. My really best friend IRL (met her in tenth grade), we were each others maids of honor, she worked with me, etc. (although I still wasn't all that social with her or anyone else) died two years ago this month. I wonder if there is some sort of connection there. I usually contact my still living friend at least a couple of times a year...
Posted by spoc on April 19, 2004, at 18:29:50
In reply to Well, here's the facts, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2004, at 17:57:51
> And I don't know that they add up to social phobia or something else.
>
> ...Added together to create me. I feel that there is something slimy and icky about me. Something that it is indescribably rude to foist onto others. And I am so careful not to bother anyone with talk or eye contact or social discourse or common courtesy that I can be enormously rude. And I know it and I can't stop it. Sometimes I'm ok, but sometimes all the will and dissociation in the world can't force me to be social with others. >Dinah, while I have symptom overlap into several areas, I have no knowledge in this one yet (I am as yet *relatively* untreated/dx-ed, amazingly). But wanted to say -- although you have a million and one people here telling you this already -- how much I enjoy how you express yourself, and the range of emotions and qualities, including humor, that you convey so well even within just a few sentences. You have so much personality and so much to offer, people really are missing out with you feeling you're an intrusion and staying away! You're SO not icky -- I'm sure people get very excited to see that yours is one of the responses to a post, and in real life if more people knew you I'm sure they'd get happy to see you coming too! (But I do understand there's more to it than that.)
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2004, at 19:30:52
In reply to Re: Well, here's the facts » Dinah, posted by spoc on April 19, 2004, at 18:29:50
Thanks Spoc. I do appreciate it. I absolutely know that it's ridiculous of me to be really rude to avoid being what I think is being rude. I also usually realize that I'm not *really* slimy. I'm also not much in real life like I am in writing. But even so I'm aware that my feelings are irrational.
Yet I'm equally positive that they're spot on the money and I'm completely correct to protect others from myself (and myself from others).
Dratted dichotomies!
So, where are your symptom overlaps? I've only been formally diagnosed with cyclothymia, OCD, and on a few occasions depression. Informally, I think my therapist has diagnosed me as incredibly and stubbornly neurotic.
Posted by jane d on April 20, 2004, at 0:56:14
In reply to Well, here's the facts, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2004, at 17:57:51
> Added together to create me. I feel that there is something slimy and icky about me. Something that it is indescribably rude to foist onto others. And I am so careful not to bother anyone with talk or eye contact or social discourse or common courtesy that I can be enormously rude.
Dinah,
I don't know what it is but you've described it perfectly. I sometimes feel that avoiding people is just being considerate of their sensibilities.Jane
Posted by spoc on April 20, 2004, at 10:45:09
In reply to Re: Well, here's the facts » spoc, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2004, at 19:30:52
> So, where are your symptom overlaps?
---
I am still pretty much uncharted territory, ridiculously. Have never stuck with therapy. But seems it would be said: varying depression/dysthmia; OCD tending towards overfocus, compulsions & time wasting; *possible* adult ADD, although I think that was a hasty "why not" dx (definitely never fit the childhood symptoms)... So, I say "overlap" because I don't know what comes from what. I am driven to be alone yet have no phobia or aversion; so is it indeed social phobia, or is it just the depression, or is it avoidant, I don't know. I think waaaaayyyyy too much but it's often not exactly worry, it's too many thoughts/factors occuring to me all at once to be able to act or make decisions. So is that OCD or ADD? Or indecisiveness/procrastination due to depression? I lock onto compulsions like a pit bull and can't stop (i.e., Internet!!!), so is that OCD, addictive behavior, avoidant behavior, irresponsibility??? Am I depressed because of *or* due to X, Y, and Z; which leads to wanting to be alone because I'm so not proud of myself? It's more a which-came-first, chicken or egg matter. But clearly, bottom line is probably "*GET THEE TO A THERAPIST*" to sort it out.
---
> But even so I'm aware that my feelings are irrational. > > Yet I'm equally positive that they're spot on the money and I'm completely correct to protect others from myself (and myself from others).> Dratted dichotomies!>---
We are kind of opposite with the reprehensible-in-person vs. reprehensible-in-writing fears! I'm told I can be very self-deprecating, including in person, although I have often thought I was just doing a good neurosis-as-humor routine! But anyway I guess this shows I too feel I can be a burden and must qualify or add value to my presence at least. But funny, for me my feeling that I should spare others from myself comes more in writing. Every time I hit 'submit' and post anything anywhere, or click off an email to someone I don't know well, I reel with worry and regret. "Why why why, what was I thinking, who am I to say or ask!!!" And then sit back and expect to see repulsed responses coming in -- or none! (Even though I think with the right meds to help focus/channel/truncate me, I feel writing may be one of my best hopes as a skill.)---
> ...I'm also not much in real life like I am in writing.---
I often wonder about the kind of thing you're expressing there; whether in reality it still pans out to us simply not being comfortable enough with someone yet. I know some say that different brain hemispheres are in use and that makes a difference. But beyond that, I wonder what the difference could be once we've gotten to know a given person. I start to think, agreed -- I can often be animated in writing when in person I am very down or irritable and feeling worthless. Or, not capable of being clear or creative in speech. But then I ask myself -- if even at those moments, I were with my most comfortable, "old-pair-of-shoes" friend and we were just watching movies and laying around, could the "light side" of my misery indeed emerge? And yes, I think it could. Meaning, in that way, company/more company could be good if I gave it a chance... So may be true for you also? BUT it's hard to differentiate my co-existing drive to be alone a lot from the true results of the "test" referred to here. So there's the overlap again!Whew, anyway, hope today is a better day for you than you said yesterday was, and heck -- throw in tomorrow and a few other days too! :- )
Posted by Penny on April 20, 2004, at 12:36:16
In reply to Well, here's the facts, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2004, at 17:57:51
((((Dinah))))
Just wanted you to know that I am going to respond to this in detail once my brain is functioning again (hopefully this evening?), but that I'm thinking of you in the meantime.
P
Posted by Dinah on April 20, 2004, at 21:45:14
In reply to Re: Well, here's the facts » Dinah, posted by jane d on April 20, 2004, at 0:56:14
Jane, my sweet. I'm really sorry you understand. :(
Why is it it hurts more to think of other people feeling that way than it does to know that I do?
Posted by Penny on April 22, 2004, at 9:07:59
In reply to Well, here's the facts, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2004, at 17:57:51
> Sixth through ninth grades, I was the designated picked on kid and pretty much learned that social contact brought intense pain.
Me too - though I guess it was more accurately 5th through 9th grades for me...
> I feel that there is something slimy and icky about me. Something that it is indescribably rude to foist onto others. And I am so careful not to bother anyone with talk or eye contact or social discourse or common courtesy that I can be enormously rude. And I know it and I can't stop it. Sometimes I'm ok, but sometimes all the will and dissociation in the world can't force me to be social with others.
>
> Is that social phobia or something else? In addition to the introversion, which I have no real problem being.I don't know if this qualifies as "social phobia" or what - but it makes me sad that you feel this way about yourself, Dinah. You said somewhere else that you aren't much in real life like you are in writing - but I find that hard to believe. You may not be able to put forward that part of yourself in real life, but it is *who you are* ultimately. I hope so, anyway, because otherwise I suppose that my writing on here (which I hope others perceive as *good*) isn't really an accurate portrayal of me in real life...
That said, I understand what you are saying. For me, it's not so extreme that I am unable to be social with others - I am even able to open up to others to an extent. But I am so afraid to let others see the "real me", for fear that they will see me to be as *bad* as I fear I really am. I know, as you said, this isn't rational thinking. It is what it is, however, and is the primary reason that I have never been involved in a romantic relationship and, at the rate I'm going, never will.
I, too, have no problem being somewhat introverted. Especially when I'm feeling bad. I was explaining that to my grandmother last night. I *enjoy* my time alone. I don't feel lonely when I'm alone. I especially like living alone, where I don't have to worry about others in the house.
I also enjoy being social, however, once I get past the hurdle of actually putting myself out there. I do enjoy the company of others. But that hurdle - that initial first step involved in "being social" - is most often so great that I refuse to even attempt it. It's much easier and safer to stay home and be by myself.
I'm forseeing the topic of my therapy session tonight. :-)
Anyway - not that it will help, but I must tell you, Dinah, though I have never "spoken" with you, I have never met you face-to-face, just going by the pictures I have seen and the woman I know you to be on this board, there is nothing remotely "slimy or icky" about you. I mean that wholeheartedly. IMHO, anyone who is graced with your company and friendship should consider themselves extremely fortunate, because you are a wonderful person. I can't even list all the wonderful things about you, Dinah - from the love you have for your child and your dogs, to the concern you have for your parents, to your intellect, to your ability to say *just the right thing* to someone who really needs a kind word.
I am a better person for knowing you, Dinah dear. Really and truly. And I would be most happy to be an IRL friend to you, were we to ever meet. :-)
((((Dinah))))
P
P.S. - sorry it has taken me so long to respond to this post!!!
Posted by Dinah on April 22, 2004, at 20:53:08
In reply to Re: Well, here's the facts » Dinah, posted by Penny on April 22, 2004, at 9:07:59
Penny, you are such a sweetheart. I would love to be your friend IRL too. My therapist is happy that I can see that my thoughts are distortions and that I can conceive that it's possible that one day I'll feel differently. But he's sort of vague on how that's supposed to happen. Come to think of it, we've had several topics brought up lately where I am willing to believe that things could possibly be different, but then the topic just seems to stop. I ought to talk to him about that.
Translating rational thoughts into actionable feelings has got to be the hardest part of therapy!
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.