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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kara lynne on October 21, 2003, at 21:45:18
I feel like I'm having a breakdown. Some of my friendships seem threatened, and I'm very conflicted. Some are old and ready to go; patterns from the past where I had to compromise myself in order to be loved--or to appear to be loved. Others I'm unsure about--what is my part, what is theirs. A couple are email friends only, which presents another dynamic entirely.
In one instance I had been having a pretty steady dialogue with someone (email only) for a couple of months. We talked about some important things and she was initially very helpful. After a while I stopped hearing from her. I inquired a few times and got no response. Eventually, left with no information, I began to infer the worst possible scenario: this person had decided not to talk to me anymore because I'd done something wrong, but I didn't know what it was. I guess you could call that my family dynamic, and one I might go to as an unconscious default position. If someone isn't talking to me it means I have done something wrong, but I don't get to know what it is---just be punished for it with rejection and silence, and probably for life. So maybe I'm too quick to project. On the other hand, when someone is important to me I respond to them--it seems so basic to me. Unless there is some reason why I can't, or one of the natural things that come up in life occurs to cause a delay--which of course I understand can hapen to anyone.
So after a couple of months I finally wrote a letter expressing my distress, saying I had taken the friendship seriously and could only infer something happened to make her want to stop contacting me. She wrote me back about a month later (yesterday) with her response--after I had finally let it go in my mind. She offered her 'perception' that I am too sensitive and quick to judge and condemn others when they don't 'behave' as I like. She suggested that this was a pattern in my life; a life I may add, she knows precious little about in any meaningful way. Then she said I had done nothing to make her mad up until that point, but inferred that the last email would be just that impetus, if she weren't being big enough to grant me such a transgression. In the next sentence was a veiled threat that should I continue to get my back up because she wasn't able to respond, than maybe she wouldn't...followed by the lovely command to 'chill'.
I wrote her back and said that if my being honest was going to prevent her from writing then so be it. Also that perhaps I wouldn't be the only one to wonder about a friend not responding to a post for three months--and did that make me oversensitive, or she a little..insensitive?
Miraculously she was able to respond to this email the next day--where she just couldn't seem to be able to do in the preceding months due to endless computer problems. She said that she-- "this insensitive person" she mocked, does not take well to guilt tripping and wished me a good life.
I wonder: How is it alright for her to feel free to offer me her unsolicited psychological take on my oversensitivity--may I even say to trounce over boundaries which were not her's for the trouncing...and yet when I volley it back over to her side it's a resounding GAME OVER!
And here we are again: I was threatened that if I didn't behave a certain way she wouldn't be my friend, and lo and behold...Interesting, because I was the one ultimately judged and condemned, as she accused me of doing. God, I never asked her to behave, just to respond! There is a meaning behind that word 'responsible'...
In my estimation a true friend might not have taken that route, not that we're longtime real life buddies or anything. And let's say that I am oversensitive. I am, ok, I get it: I'm oversensitive! Does that mean I don't get to have friends? I'm willing to concede that it gets the better of me sometimes, but a little information and I'm usually just fine. I certainly would want to give the same to my friends, and I have many times.
Thanks for listening. There's more where that came from, but it's a start.
Yours truly,
Alienated in Cyberland
Posted by KellyD on October 21, 2003, at 22:24:36
In reply to Sensitive material, posted by kara lynne on October 21, 2003, at 21:45:18
I have been in your shoes in a similar situation. This cyper-friendship, relationship, whatever it is that develops, is difficult to sustain, or at least it is for me. It has worked for me, like the romantic relationships that are destined to end. Hard and fast in the beginning and then they seem to end. The analysis by your "friend" was rather uncalled for, in my opinion. Some of us feel "everything" and are easily hurt. (yes, we allow those feelings, but it hurts and effects our self esteem, none the less) I think we do need to be careful in using the big wide world of cyberspace to find friends. Knowing that doesn't keep me from still trying. I hope it helped to vent. I wanted to respond as I've been there, a number of us probably have. Not to mention, I've had at least one REALLY bad cyber-relationship. H*ll, I get ignored on this site half the time. Maybe, I lack cyber-developmental skills. I'm sorry your "friend" responded the way they did and you do deserve friends who are loyal and supportive - I'm just not sure how to find new ones on or off line.
Forgive the rambling.
Posted by octopusprime on October 22, 2003, at 0:33:05
In reply to Re: Sensitive material, posted by KellyD on October 21, 2003, at 22:24:36
kara lynne -
from what i know of you (which admittedly isn't much), i would say that your alleged "friend" was wrong on the count of being quick to judge and condemn. from what i have seen from your posts, you are anything but! you're always reconsidering positions and seeing people and things in new lights.
now here's where you and i differ - my default position is that i'm right and the person letting me down is a stupidhead. no fair. whine. stomp. but that's just me. :) and i do a lot of whining and stomping.
i really don't think it's oversensitivity on your part that's denying you of this "friendship". from where i sit, the alleged "friend" is not mature enough to handle the kind of emotional connection that grown-ups share in the real world.
it sucks to lose a friend, especially through no fault of your own. just say that over and over until you believe it. "it's not my fault." some people are just weird.
and vent until you're done here! we'll listen and not accuse you of negative personality traits.
boom-ba-boom-boom-ba-boom-boom-boom
Posted by octopusprime on October 22, 2003, at 0:48:03
In reply to Re: Sensitive material, posted by KellyD on October 21, 2003, at 22:24:36
> H*ll, I get ignored on this site half the time. Maybe, I lack cyber-developmental skills. I'm sorry your "friend" responded the way they did and you do deserve friends who are loyal and supportive - I'm just not sure how to find new ones on or off line.
Hi KellyD.
You make some salient points, especially about cyber relationships being entirely different animals than real-life friendships.Just wanted to make sure you don't feel ignored! :) Don't blame yourself for non-response. Many times people don't respond to you because they agree with what you have written, and don't have anything to add.
I have made good friends lately with my books and my drum. I could use a few more human friends too. But I suppose this isn't the "I feel like a loser" thread, so I'll take that rant elsewhere.
We all deserve loyalty and supportiveness from our friends! Now if only my friends wouldn't give me papercuts ...
Posted by kara lynne on October 22, 2003, at 2:27:58
In reply to Re: Sensitive material, posted by octopusprime on October 22, 2003, at 0:33:05
Hi octopus,
Nice to hear from you! Someone I haven't alienated! (yet, anyway...) Thank you so much for your reply; I like your default position much better than mine.I realized tonight that I do in fact, need a modicum of consistency in a relationship in order for there to be trust. She made it sound like my expectations were out of line--I would be very disappointed if that were so. She wanted to bail and that's ok. What I don't think is ok is that she stepped over the bounds, into an unsolicited analysis and judgement of my behavior patterns. I think it was veiled as 'her perception' of my behavior--therefore making it an 'I' statement. But it was really a 'you' statement thinly disguised as an 'I'.
I guess she thought it was too demanding of me to want to know why she hadn't responded. To have a personal reaction to it yielded a warning, and to have a response to the warning warranted complete rejection.
Are my expectations too high for anyone to fulfill? That's what my ex would certainly have you believe. My brother would say the same. On the other hand a woman at work won't be my friend because I didn't return a call to her six years ago.
So this person's 'case' could be made about me. Maybe she is surrounded by many loving people, while I precariously balance the few friends I have. Maybe my ideas about staying connected are distorted, and don't exist in reality. Maybe I need too much. There's another one! And yet asking why I hadn't heard from her didn't seem like too much...seemed like a good idea at the time.
Another one bites the dust.
Back in the boom boom room.
Posted by kara lynne on October 22, 2003, at 2:34:40
In reply to Re: Sensitive material, posted by KellyD on October 21, 2003, at 22:24:36
Hi Kelly,
Thank you for writing and understanding so well. I think it is tricky with these cyber relationships--two entire dimensions are left out of the equation. If we had been together and been able to see each other's expressions or hear each other's tone of voice, perhaps it would have ended entirely differently. It's strange to think about.I'm sorry you feel ignored on this site--I'm certainly prone to feeling that way. I guess it is a skill to keep on figuring out ways to connect when the ordinary responses aren't provided. Maybe we could start a class in cyber developmental skills, what do you think?
Thanks you for saying I deserve friends who are loyal and supportive. I'm sure you would make a good one.
Posted by galkeepinon on October 22, 2003, at 3:57:03
In reply to Sensitive material, posted by kara lynne on October 21, 2003, at 21:45:18
kara lynne, I wasn't going to respond to your post out of respect to *you*, because I thought you wouldn't want me to, in being as honest as I can get, but I'm choosing to take that risk because I want to be here for you and I can relate...
>>>>>She offered her 'perception' that I am too sensitive and quick to judge and condemn others when they don't 'behave' as I like. She suggested that this was a pattern in my life; a life I may add, she knows precious little about in any meaningful way.
Why do people do that? Judge us when they haven't walked even an hour in our moccasins?
I wish I could share more of what really is going on in my life, if nothing to help others here, but I can't.>>>>>She said that she-- "this insensitive person" she mocked, does not take well to guilt tripping and wished me a good life.
That just plain is pure m a n i p u l a t i o n, moreso unkind IMHO. It's so hard when at one time, we are friends with someone and this sort of thing happens in our friendships with others.
You're not alone...my family dynamics were just like that: silence and rejection. VERY emotionally damaging!>>>>Also that perhaps I wouldn't be the only one to wonder about a friend not responding to a post for three months--and did that make me oversensitive, or she a little..insensitive?
What are *we* supposed to think??? Really:(
You sound like you value friendships as much as I do, but sometimes I guess this stuff happens and it hurts~there's no doubt about it.
I just now say 'ok~I've forwarded jokes, inspirational stuff to (insert friend here), and haven't heard from her in days, sometimes weeks, sometimes months, so I'll back off'
I try with ALL my might to understand that my friends have lives, but so do I!! Yet I still make time to pass along a 'hey, how are things in your world'
Ya know?>>>>>In my estimation a true friend might not have taken that route, not that we're longtime real life buddies or anything. And let's say that I am oversensitive. I am, ok, I get it: I'm oversensitive!
sensitivity is a good quality IMHO, just learn how to use it wisely and not get hurt in the process~I hear you, but more important I do understand you!!!!!!
I read your entire post and I feel for you, all I can say is that I wish I could give you a hug right now, because I TRULY know how you feel!
I would post more, but 1) I don't know if you want me to post to you, and 2) I'm sick.
Take your power back kara lynne, I wish you nothing but the best, and you're not alone. I hope at least I made some difference by replying to your post, if not, that's ok, it's the risk I took.
Be well.
> I feel like I'm having a breakdown. Some of my friendships seem threatened, and I'm very conflicted. Some are old and ready to go; patterns from the past where I had to compromise myself in order to be loved--or to appear to be loved. Others I'm unsure about--what is my part, what is theirs. A couple are email friends only, which presents another dynamic entirely.
>
> In one instance I had been having a pretty steady dialogue with someone (email only) for a couple of months. We talked about some important things and she was initially very helpful. After a while I stopped hearing from her. I inquired a few times and got no response. Eventually, left with no information, I began to infer the worst possible scenario: this person had decided not to talk to me anymore because I'd done something wrong, but I didn't know what it was. I guess you could call that my family dynamic, and one I might go to as an unconscious default position. If someone isn't talking to me it means I have done something wrong, but I don't get to know what it is---just be punished for it with rejection and silence, and probably for life. So maybe I'm too quick to project. On the other hand, when someone is important to me I respond to them--it seems so basic to me. Unless there is some reason why I can't, or one of the natural things that come up in life occurs to cause a delay--which of course I understand can hapen to anyone.
>
> So after a couple of months I finally wrote a letter expressing my distress, saying I had taken the friendship seriously and could only infer something happened to make her want to stop contacting me. She wrote me back about a month later (yesterday) with her response--after I had finally let it go in my mind. She offered her 'perception' that I am too sensitive and quick to judge and condemn others when they don't 'behave' as I like. She suggested that this was a pattern in my life; a life I may add, she knows precious little about in any meaningful way. Then she said I had done nothing to make her mad up until that point, but inferred that the last email would be just that impetus, if she weren't being big enough to grant me such a transgression. In the next sentence was a veiled threat that should I continue to get my back up because she wasn't able to respond, than maybe she wouldn't...followed by the lovely command to 'chill'.
>
> I wrote her back and said that if my being honest was going to prevent her from writing then so be it. Also that perhaps I wouldn't be the only one to wonder about a friend not responding to a post for three months--and did that make me oversensitive, or she a little..insensitive?
>
> Miraculously she was able to respond to this email the next day--where she just couldn't seem to be able to do in the preceding months due to endless computer problems. She said that she-- "this insensitive person" she mocked, does not take well to guilt tripping and wished me a good life.
>
> I wonder: How is it alright for her to feel free to offer me her unsolicited psychological take on my oversensitivity--may I even say to trounce over boundaries which were not her's for the trouncing...and yet when I volley it back over to her side it's a resounding GAME OVER!
>
> And here we are again: I was threatened that if I didn't behave a certain way she wouldn't be my friend, and lo and behold...Interesting, because I was the one ultimately judged and condemned, as she accused me of doing. God, I never asked her to behave, just to respond! There is a meaning behind that word 'responsible'...
>
> In my estimation a true friend might not have taken that route, not that we're longtime real life buddies or anything. And let's say that I am oversensitive. I am, ok, I get it: I'm oversensitive! Does that mean I don't get to have friends? I'm willing to concede that it gets the better of me sometimes, but a little information and I'm usually just fine. I certainly would want to give the same to my friends, and I have many times.
>
> Thanks for listening. There's more where that came from, but it's a start.
>
> Yours truly,
> Alienated in Cyberland
Posted by galkeepinon on October 22, 2003, at 4:00:44
In reply to Re: Sensitive material, posted by KellyD on October 21, 2003, at 22:24:36
>>>>H*ll, I get ignored on this site half the time.
Just letting you know, from me, that I hear you and understand. And to let you know by posting this, that at this moment, you're not being ignored:-)
sending happiness your way...
Posted by galkeepinon on October 22, 2003, at 4:04:56
In reply to Re: Sensitive material, posted by octopusprime on October 22, 2003, at 0:33:05
>>>>>you're always reconsidering positions and seeing people and things in new lights.
yes she is!
>>>>> we'll listen and not accuse you of negative personality traits.
I PROMISE I will always listen to you, if you allow me to kara lynne.
>>>>>boom-ba-boom-boom-ba-boom-boom-boom
You can say that again;-)!!
Posted by galkeepinon on October 22, 2003, at 4:07:46
In reply to Re: Sensitive material/ octopus, posted by kara lynne on October 22, 2003, at 2:27:58
Posted by galkeepinon on October 22, 2003, at 4:13:18
In reply to kara lynne deserves the best!!!! believe that (nm) » kara lynne, posted by galkeepinon on October 22, 2003, at 4:07:46
I am sending friendly, happy, happy thoughts your way, because I want to.
All 3 of you are a gift to this world.
I wish you all nothing but serenity, peace, and the kind of friends you deserve, the same kind of friends I'm sure you are to people in your life.
Sincerely...
Posted by KellyD on October 22, 2003, at 7:32:46
In reply to kara lynne/ KellyD/octopusprime » galkeepinon, posted by galkeepinon on October 22, 2003, at 4:13:18
I got to "hear" some really nice things from all of you: kara lynn, octopusprime, galkeepinon. Thank you all for that. I wasn't going to make a "big deal" over the being ignored part but, it had started to bother me. I post a question, comment, rambling - no takers, or maybe one. Anyway, I am trying to not to over personalize it. You guy's kind words helped me. I'm sending best wishes to all of you, too! I think the future still holds some good healthy friendships for us all!
Posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 9:37:47
In reply to Sensitive material, posted by kara lynne on October 21, 2003, at 21:45:18
Hi, KL,
I wrote a lot here, but I think it was not very helpful. So this is all that's left. Just some hopefully comforting words from a fellow *very sensitive* person. :-)
> In my estimation a true friend might not have taken that route,
<<No, a true friend wouldn't have. But it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. :-(
>> And let's say that I am oversensitive. I am, ok, I get it: I'm oversensitive! Does that mean I don't get to have friends?
<<No, you just have to seek friends who are good communicators like you are. :-)You sound a lot like me. Very sensitive and quick to look at yourself to see if something's *your* fault.
But e-mail can really suck as a communication medium, especially to convey emotions, which is why I (obviously) am a big fan of those emoticons. And I can see one or two e-mails not being taken the way they were intended. But after that volley of correspondence, I think you two are on totally different pages, and it's best to let this friendship fade away. If nurtured despite this, it might cause you further pain down the road.
I know it's frustrating and hurtful. But I *also* think that changing,losing,making new friends is a *good* thing. It shows you know who you are, you are true to yourself, and you grow as the years go by.
Take care,
Susan
Posted by karen_kay on October 22, 2003, at 16:18:52
In reply to Re: Sensitive material » kara lynne, posted by Susan J on October 22, 2003, at 9:37:47
The thing with e-mail is that it is entirely inpersonal. I feel that it is truly hard to maintain a relationship with another person and make a personal connection without actually seeing the person and hearing their voice. Using all of the senses is extremely important in making a personal connection. But, for this reason others seem to forget that there is another person behind the e-mail. People see their internet buddies as expendible. I am sorry that this happened, and I too am one of those people who feel things deeply and gets hurt as a result. What you must realize is that you can use this as a learning experience and also judge this person's character by her actions. She may seem to forget that you are a person, but you seem to always remember that she is human. You sound very sweet and I would always return your e-mails. Don't forget that there are others out there who tend to get emotionally involved just the same. Keep your head up and your heart open. Karen
Posted by octopusprime on October 22, 2003, at 21:32:17
In reply to Re: Sensitive material/ octopus, posted by kara lynne on October 22, 2003, at 2:27:58
> Are my expectations too high for anyone to fulfill? That's what my ex would certainly have you believe. My brother would say the same. On the other hand a woman at work won't be my friend because I didn't return a call to her six years ago.
kara lynne, i just wanted to chat about expectations.
i don't think your expectations are too high. you expect a consistent friend that returns your emails in a timeframe measured in days, not months. that is not unreasonable. you expect to speak honestly about situations as they occur, and to address situations fairly. also not unreasonable.
however, some people can't meet your needs or expectations. that doesn't mean that your needs and expectations are wrong or too high. that means the people you are interacting with just don't have the capability inside themselves to meet your expectations. the reasons for this incapability are not important, and probably have absolutely nothing to do with you.
although we frequently assert that humans are rational beings, some humans behave irrationally and without regard to others' feelings in the best of situations.
lousy answer, i know. if there is a rock under which nice respectful people are hiding, people that return phone calls and emails in a timely fashion, please point it out to me! i'd like to meet some of these people too! i know they exist, somewhere ...
Posted by kara lynne on October 22, 2003, at 22:16:37
In reply to Re: high expectations » kara lynne, posted by octopusprime on October 22, 2003, at 21:32:17
Yes, you make a good point. I had a session today about this and the counselor brought up some good points as well. She said there are a group of people that fall under the category of 'angry caretakers' and if there is one shred of anything that threatens their (falsely) virtuous identity they have to attack and defend. Also that two viewpoints are never considered, but two must abide by their one view, and that they will never in a million years be able to see or admit it. Knowing that, why would I want to play? Easy, I wouldn't. And the less time I spend thinking about what I might have done wrong, and spend it instead bringing in people who would make good friends, the better. She also said at this point in her life she doesn't have friends if they can't offer some consistency, and that it is not too much to ask for.
Thanks, o.p.
Posted by kara lynne on October 22, 2003, at 22:20:18
In reply to Re: Sensitive material, posted by karen_kay on October 22, 2003, at 16:18:52
Thank you for the kind words and support. It's good to know there are other people out there who feel the same way I do.
May your emails also be answered!
Posted by galkeepinon on October 22, 2003, at 22:27:16
In reply to Re: Sensitive material karen kay, posted by kara lynne on October 22, 2003, at 22:20:18
Posted by Liligoth on October 23, 2003, at 3:11:08
In reply to Thanks to kl's post----, posted by KellyD on October 22, 2003, at 7:32:46
> I got to "hear" some really nice things from all of you: kara lynn, octopusprime, galkeepinon. Thank you all for that. I wasn't going to make a "big deal" over the being ignored part but, it had started to bother me. I post a question, comment, rambling - no takers, or maybe one. Anyway, I am trying to not to over personalize it. You guy's kind words helped me. I'm sending best wishes to all of you, too! I think the future still holds some good healthy friendships for us all!
it's not just you. Whenever I post to a thread it's usually completely ignored or the thread ends right there. I try not to take it personally as no-one here knows me so how could it be?
Posted by KellyD on October 23, 2003, at 7:27:03
In reply to Re: Thanks to kl's post---- » KellyD, posted by Liligoth on October 23, 2003, at 3:11:08
I'm returning the acknowledgment of the posting thing. Don't know one another, but love the ID name. Best to you. I try not to personalize it, really. At some of my more feeling times, the lack of "popularity" can feel like rejection, but I know it isn't.
Posted by Dinah on October 23, 2003, at 8:48:15
In reply to Re: Thanks to kl's post---- » KellyD, posted by Liligoth on October 23, 2003, at 3:11:08
Don't take it personally. Threads have a natural life. I'm formulating a theory that newcomers are cautious about adding to a thread and wait a while to do it, the momentums gone, and they get no reply.
However, all of us feel like threadkillers a fair amount of the time. That's because we forget the times that all went well, and remember the times we feel embarassed.
But don't worry about it. Release the post and then don't worry about response or lack thereof. There are just too many variables to consider.
(That's one of the advantages of lousy memory. Half the time I've forgotten I made a post.)
Posted by KellyD on October 23, 2003, at 9:56:18
In reply to Re: Thanks to kl's post----, posted by Dinah on October 23, 2003, at 8:48:15
Thank you, Dinah. I am not really upset about it. I know many variables go into if one gets responses. I think right now, there's a lot of dealing with "who is who" and such. That has been a topic of great discussion, no need to go further in this post. And sometimes, people just don't have anything to add or say. I'm an on again, off again poster - sometimes if I show up on a board I don't usually post on, well, I understand caution in the posters who are there alot.
This is the end of the thread.
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