![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 51. Go back in thread:
Posted by ST on March 11, 2002, at 1:50:42
In reply to mind games, part 1, posted by trouble on March 10, 2002, at 14:33:31
Wow. I must have been totally oblivious. Mind games? I don't think I notice or ackowledge those things...
I'm sorry Dinah has left. I wish she'd reconsider.
Sarah
Posted by Lini on March 11, 2002, at 9:35:41
In reply to Oblivious, posted by ST on March 11, 2002, at 1:50:42
I don't understand what is going on? As a "lurker" on these boards, it is possible that I have missed something, but I went back through and read a bunch of old posts and I don't understand where all of this "mind games" stuff is coming from. Everyone is manipulative in someway or another - all we can ask is that the golden rule gets applied liberally and often.I am actually shocked that Dinah is not here. Actually, I am more shocked that I am shocked I guess, cause I didn't really think I cared too much about this board - more saw it as something to read, like a good book that talks back. But Dinah leaving makes this all very personal - like someone ripped out some pages or something. Why did she go? Can someone explain?
We're just people here. Fucked up in our own unique ways . . . I feel like if you have to actually come out and say you need to leave, then you're making a statement about "us" here on PB.(now I am actually including myself, and using acronyms!). I guess I am realizing that this place is kinda like family to me. You can say you're leaving, or be blocked or just not read anything for a few weeks, but you're always going to be related to "us" here. just like we didn't choose our family, we didn't choose the other people on this board, but here we are, and once you're in the mix of it, well it becomes a tattoo.
Oh man, I guess I am upset that Dinah isn't here. I mean, her posts were always soooo "trying" in that you could tell, she was always wanting to do the best for the person, always wanting to be thoughtful and diplomatic. I am sure it must have been exhausting, but I really appreciated it.
So anyway, now Dinah has turned into a distant cousin related through marriage. That sucks. I don't like people to leave.
Posted by Krazy Kat on March 12, 2002, at 9:06:54
In reply to Dinah's friends, posted by trouble on March 9, 2002, at 13:55:38
If anyone is knowingly playing mind games here - in other words, being deceptive - I want them to know that they will likely eventually cause many to leave. That's one thing that isn't tolerated by the folks I call my friends here - honesty is key when you're dealing with a community you can't see, or hear, or feel. As is being "blunt" to a point - there is no room for sarcasm that isn't clearly sarcasm.
One reason I'm not here really anymore is the "games" that have been popping up. It's a different and unsafe atmosphere.
- KK
Posted by ST on March 13, 2002, at 6:11:14
In reply to Mind Games, posted by Krazy Kat on March 12, 2002, at 9:06:54
KK,
I've wondered where you've been... Maybe I just haven't read those "mind game" posts, but I do hope you decide to come back.
Sarah
Posted by johnX2 on March 13, 2002, at 9:42:13
In reply to Mind Games, posted by Krazy Kat on March 12, 2002, at 9:06:54
Which newsboard were all these problems occuring on besides the obvious few outbreaks that I was aware of on the psychobabble board (the identity swizzle game).I guess I'm oblivious to this mind game thing
and this beligerent posting dealy. Maybe I do
a good job of avoiding those threads or just taking them with a grain of salt.Thanks,
John
> If anyone is knowingly playing mind games here - in other words, being deceptive - I want them to know that they will likely eventually cause many to leave. That's one thing that isn't tolerated by the folks I call my friends here - honesty is key when you're dealing with a community you can't see, or hear, or feel. As is being "blunt" to a point - there is no room for sarcasm that isn't clearly sarcasm.
>
> One reason I'm not here really anymore is the "games" that have been popping up. It's a different and unsafe atmosphere.
>
> - KK
Posted by trouble on March 13, 2002, at 12:22:24
In reply to Re: Mind Games, posted by johnX2 on March 13, 2002, at 9:42:13
I don't know what to say. It looks like most of y'all, including Dr.Bob have used the term mind games like a rorsarsch test, and it seems pointless to try but I just feel like I need to add something constructive before letting this go and I don't know where to start, please bear w/me.
Basically, the mind games Dinah spoke of were real, they were apparent and sad. If you look over her last week of posting, especially btwn her and myself it becomes clear that something painful was compelling her to feel badly about herself. In retrospect I believe her "gremlin" (the inner critic who is never satisfied until you're a puddle on the floor) had her by the balls, and I spoonfed that thing out of my own ignorance and narcissism. In retrospect, again looking over the posts it's clear, I see where things went off-track, it's all there in our discussions on anger and values and principles, she set me up, and this is a game, and it's not evil or deceptive or dishonest, god nothing is that simple, but her gremlin set me (really herself) up w/ her inquiries regarding middle class values, she wanted me, specificlly to share my ideas on middle class values, and this is where I should have asked why, why me, she knew on some level that she was throwing raw meat to a starving tiger, and I responded accordingly, like the passionate, grass-roots Marxist I am, boo to the middle class, that is to say I was talking from an ideological perspective when what Dinah needed was more therapeutic and validating in nature.
WE all dropped the ball when she asked for help about the bullying husband, when she came back and said forget it, that she was a terrible wife for talking about her marriage, that was an obvious "game" she had set herself up for that went completely over my head, busy as I was feeding her gremlin.
Then she proclaimed that a rest cure was in order, and would take a break from typing, and I applauded that. I believe that by this time everything I said to her fed the gremlin, and you can see that in the posts if you have the stomach for it. She came back that night and posted several times in game-speak, and I and others replied playfully in kind, which was our mistake.
By now she must have been grasping for whatever remained of her self-respect, you can almost see it draining out of her as she tried to regain her footing on PBA w/the That Was Beautiful, Dr. Bob post, which began, "As one who finds true beauty in justice..."Whoa, hold on there. Justice is a moral principle, and I had been attacking moral principles from a pedagological point of view, which, in my conceit, I didn't realize was taken by Dinah as a personal attack. I'm supposed to know all about mindgames and be so adroit at turning them around but I was blinded by my own narcissism run amuck.
Final and most poignant conversation btwn us was on PB when she, fresh from the rest cure gave someone advice w/ her usual creative wit and metaphor, and I posted Brilliant Wit, Dinah, You're Peaking Again! I hope it's apparent how stupid that was, how stupid Face Value can be. How do you think she took that? Her response made my hair stand on end. Had I been the least bit sensitive to the "dance" we were doing, and not the face-value intellectual boob that I was she'd probably still be w/us today.By the time I realized what went wrong it was too late and complicated, she was too demoralized.
So yes, I think it's important to grow up a little and look into what Eric Berne called the psychology of human relationships, or "Games People Play." They are more about pain, than they are The Talented Mr. Ripley.
trouble
Posted by Lini on March 13, 2002, at 13:42:42
In reply to Mea Culpa, posted by trouble on March 13, 2002, at 12:22:24
Maybe this is what happens when this board takes on too much significance for people. I mean, I think this whole chat thing is great, but this mind games things has thrown me for a loop. Are mind games being deceptive? Being sarcastic? Are mind games saying you'll tell a story but only one sentence at a time or if a certain condition is met? Are mind games logging in as two different people and then arguing with yourself? Are mind games answering everyone's posts, trying to make friends with everyone and becoming popular/known on the board? Are mind games saying one thing on PB, another thing on PSB and something else on PBA? Telling on people on PBA? Being offended by little remarks? Saying you'll never come back?Maybe if we had an agreed upon definition of what a mind game was, we could avoid it. Or if people simply explained when they're hurt and gave other people a chance to apologize/be supportive.
This whole thing has gotten so highschool. Can't we just take this all a little less personally?
Posted by beardedlady on March 13, 2002, at 14:37:31
In reply to Re: Mea Culpa, posted by Lini on March 13, 2002, at 13:42:42
I came to pb for some med advice and got it. I checked out the psb board and thought it was kind of neat to share ideas and advice. But I never took it so seriously that I got offended by something someone said.
The definition of support is a tricky one. Does it mean that you rah-rah-rah someone's ridiculous decision? Or does it mean that you help someone over tough times? And does that "help" mean saying only what the person wants to here?
I am certain this board is inhabited by some nice folks, some intelligent people, some caring individuals. But--and I mean no offense by this--if I want "support," why would I ask strangers? If I need crisis management, why would I come to this anonymous board and post my cry for help? I don't even know where any of you live!
Our families and our friends and our neighbors should be the ones we trust with the intimate details of our lives, the ones we go to in our times of need. I thought this was the place to commiserate, the place to be to not be alone, the FREE place to get an unbiased opinion from people who don't evaluate our situations by using our own histories against us.
I say this because I don't think people should be blaming themselves for another's decision to leave the board. I suppose I could see it if a bunch of people said, "We don't like you; go away." My feelings would be hurt a little, I guess.
But this has gotten out of hand. Because I have a DSL, it's easy for me to check the board a dozen times a day. It's easy to sit in front of the screen typing until my eyes blur. It's so easy, in fact, that I haven't done some really important things in the past two weeks. (And boy does my breath stink!)
So I'm blocking myself for an indefinite period. I will have to resist the temptation to give advice and express my bizarre political views and instead brush my teeth, shower, see the world.
I worry, too, that this board might hurt some people. I have noticed a few folks here who really need help (!), and I don't think this forum is healthy for them--either because they are too sensitive or because they seem to be missing life. But that's their business, not mine. It's just an observation.
Anyway, thank you so much for all of your glad tidings and good arguments and fun poems (sue doe) and great advice (JohnX2, Ron, Colin, and others).
I wish you all the best!
bearded lady : )>
P.S. The name is from an Ani Difranco song, "'tis of thee," from "Up Up Up Up Up Up." It's an excellent song, and I hope you can check it out. Here's the section:
"i ran away with the circus
'cuz there's still some honest work left for bearded ladies
but it's not the same going town to town
since they put everyone in jail
except the cleavers and the bradys"We are all bearded ladies on this board. It's hard to hide how special we are.
Posted by mair on March 13, 2002, at 16:34:22
In reply to Mea Culpa, posted by trouble on March 13, 2002, at 12:22:24
Trouble
I don't think you've analyzed this correctly, but I also think that it's pretty irrelevant since Dinah left choosing not to explain her reasons. She is free to come back and explain why she left to begin with and she is free to come back with no explanation and of course she is free to stay away. I hope she comes back (with or without explanation) as I trust do others, but I don't think you should engage in mental gymnastics trying to figure out what role you might have played in her leaving to begin with. The nature of the beast here is that we only get that kind of information if someone else chooses to give it to us. You can't confront Dinah as you might be able to if you actually knew her; you can't read anything from the tone of her voice, or her expression or her body language. In this respect the bearded lady is right in her assessments of the limitations of the Board.
I don't believe support has to be "rah rah;" I've seen plenty of instances where people communicated criticism in a civil and constructive manner. But no matter how familiar we all seem to one another after awhile; no matter how much you might feel that you really do sort of know someone after reading so much of what they've offered, none of us really does know people we encounter on this Board at all, and that's why I think that we all sometimes need to be careful how we deal with one another.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 17:43:54
In reply to Dinah's friends, posted by trouble on March 9, 2002, at 13:55:38
Well, if this posts it means that Dr. Bob didn't remove my registration. Thanks a lot Dr. Bob.
My therapist just gave me permission to start reading the board again and I was ... overwhelmed reading this thread and its permutations. He hasn't lifted his recommendation against posting, but since this thread concerns me, I'll give it a shot anyway.
Thanks everyone who had kind words and wished I would stay. I'm really don't think that I can. This board plays into my personal vulnerabilities in a way that is just not good for me. I can't begin to explain or even understand it, but oddly enough trouble was right. It has something to do with lack of ego strength and I still don't even know what that means, although my therapist and I spent an hour today talking about it. It's still all calculus to me.
IsoM, I'm sorry if you were upset about the e-mail address. I changed it after I sent it to you and I just couldn't remember who I had sent it to. I was not at my best.
I didn't mean to be in any way cryptic about my leaving. It just wasn't and isn't possible to explain the reasons.
And the agitated feeling I am getting reading the posts and writing my response feels so familiar. It is the main reason I left and the reason I don't think I am strong enough to come back.
I do want to say this most emphatically. I never played any games, unless you call my experiment with being totally open and vulnerable a game. (By the way, the results were not good and my personal recommendation would be against total openness and vulnerability on the internet.) Oh, and I will admit to a certain love of wordplay. So my posts may have been carefully worded but they were always honest to the utmost of my ability.
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 17:46:11
In reply to Re: Dinah's friend w/ADD » IsoM, posted by Zo on March 9, 2002, at 19:24:01
> I'm so glad to hear. I was an inadvertant player in one of those "mind games". . .because I lost my place on a thread! Tell her, it wasn't mind games, it was ADD!
>
> I was answering someone else entire, and by the time I figured it out, she was gone.
>
> Say hi, and that I was sad to see her leave,
> Zo
Hi Zo,
I must admit that I have no real idea which post you are referring to. I don't remember any post from you that wasn't clearly addressed to me and in context with the thread posted to. Perhaps you would give me exact directions to the post in question and let me know what post you were meaning to reply to?Thanks.
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 17:52:09
In reply to Re: Oblivious as well, posted by Lini on March 11, 2002, at 9:35:41
> Oh man, I guess I am upset that Dinah isn't here. I mean, her posts were always soooo "trying" in that you could tell, she was always wanting to do the best for the person, always wanting to be thoughtful and diplomatic. I am sure it must have been exhausting, but I really appreciated it.
>
Thanks Lini,
That actually was a large part of it. I did try very hard and it was exhausting. Add that to my Don Quixote complex and my OCD fears of causing harm to someone through what I posted, it left me absolutely exhausted and tearful on many an occasion. It also accounts for my frequent apologies. Unless I can overcome some of those problems in myself, I don't think I can be useful to the board or the board can be, overall, a positive thing for me. But it's my shortcomings, not anyone else's. Thanks for your kind words. I really appreciate that someone could see the effort I put into my replies. It is very touching to me.
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 17:55:58
In reply to Re: Mind Games, posted by johnX2 on March 13, 2002, at 9:42:13
>
> Which newsboard were all these problems occuring on besides the obvious few outbreaks that I was aware of on the psychobabble board (the identity swizzle game).
>
> I guess I'm oblivious to this mind game thing
> and this beligerent posting dealy. Maybe I do
> a good job of avoiding those threads or just taking them with a grain of salt.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
>
Do you mind my asking what is an "identity swizzle game"? Is that an internet term?Thanks
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 17:56:41
In reply to Re: Mind Games, posted by johnX2 on March 13, 2002, at 9:42:13
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 18:00:55
In reply to Re: Mea Culpa, posted by beardedlady on March 13, 2002, at 14:37:31
>
> I worry, too, that this board might hurt some people. I have noticed a few folks here who really need help (!), and I don't think this forum is healthy for them--either because they are too sensitive or because they seem to be missing life. But that's their business, not mine. It's just an observation.
>
> bearded lady : )>
>
You're right. And I'm one of those people. I am too sensitive and I admit it. I'm working on it but I think that is one therapeutic goal that will never be reached.
Posted by IsoM on March 13, 2002, at 18:14:36
In reply to Re: Dinah herself, posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 17:43:54
Dinah, I understand very much about feeling vulnerable. I don't get that feeling myself but I've seen it in my son who has Asperger from the time he was little, growing up in an uncertain & unsympathetic (to him) environment. He was often in tears about the hurt he'd experience from other mean kids, but he'd very often get hurt from children who meant no harm but he just didn't understand their social interactions. Children can sometimes be brutally cruel to each other. He took absolutely everything at face value. I learned how to talk with him in a very straightforward yet gentle manner. I wish far more people would be straightforward with each other but 'couch' their words with tenderness so even when there's disagreement or constructive critisism, no one is hurt.
If you wish to e-mail me back in the future, please feel free to. I truly value your views & perspective. If you'd rather not e-mail me, I won't feel hurt or take it personally. You're too fragile now, I'll understand.
Posted by johnX2 on March 13, 2002, at 18:21:51
In reply to Re: Mind Games, posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 17:55:58
> Do you mind my asking what is an "identity swizzle game"? Is that an internet term?
>
> Thanks
Hi Dinah,I'm not sure of your whereabouts at the
time, but I think this post best sums up
the "identity swizzle game" (a psycho-babble thread phenomena)http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020308/msgs/3426.html
Best Regards,
John> >
> > Which newsboard were all these problems occuring on besides the obvious few outbreaks that I was aware of on the psychobabble board (the identity swizzle game).
> >
> > I guess I'm oblivious to this mind game thing
> > and this beligerent posting dealy. Maybe I do
> > a good job of avoiding those threads or just taking them with a grain of salt.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> >
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 18:29:04
In reply to Mea Culpa, posted by trouble on March 13, 2002, at 12:22:24
Geez, trouble. You really need to look up the definition of mea culpa. That was more of a shea culpa. My gremlins? Setting you up? Yikes. I guess this mea culpa thing is new to you.
Don't worry about it though because I didn't find it particularly insulting. It was just too far off the mark. My self esteem is just fine, thank you very much. I have a very clear and accurate picture of my strengths and weaknesses and I have come to terms (for the most part) with both.
I will reiterate however, that my only game was not playing any games at all. I asked you about middle class values because you had expressed the sort of viewpoints that led me to believe that you would be able to explain what I had never clearly understood. I stated clearly that this was my reason for asking you. I wasn't at all insulted or wounded by your answer and didn't see it as a personal attack at all. And I left the board for the sake of my own mental health, which was frighteningly precarious at the time, not to play games with you.
The problem came about from your love of ambiguity and my fear of ambiguity. You don't like to spell things out. I do. And if things aren't spelled out, I tend to try to connect the dots myself. I may or may not do it correctly, but it is frightening to me. I think I actually told you this, although the point of my post may not have been clear. I told you that I was terrified of the Unspoken. And I am. Perhaps I should have been more clear.
Apart from the ambiguity, I always enjoyed our exchanges, as I not infrequently told you. It isn't often that I find someone of your wit and verbal abilities with whom to spar in a friendly manner. I wish that we could continue the exchanges. But I'm afraid that I overestimated my own ability and my own ego strength - not to mention my own mental health.
As I said before, no hard feelings. I wish you all the best.
I am again being totally honest and vulnerable. I hope that you can take it in that spirit and not be offended or angry. And if you find my reply pathetic and worthy of ridicule, I ask you to keep that to yourself. I know you don't suffer fools gladly and I fear that I have been very much a fool my entire time on this board.
Oh and thanks for the "her usual creative wit and metaphor". It means a lot coming from you. And I'll politely not notice the less flattering parts of this and the previous posts on this thread.
Fondly,
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 18:33:18
In reply to Re: Dinah herself and Her E-mail Address » Dinah, posted by IsoM on March 13, 2002, at 18:14:36
You appear to understand the situation perfectly. I appreciate your thoughtfulness.
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 18:34:16
In reply to Re: Mind Games » Dinah, posted by johnX2 on March 13, 2002, at 18:21:51
I found myself frequently confused trying to read this thread. Thank you for clearing that one up.
Posted by trouble on March 14, 2002, at 9:23:24
In reply to Re: Mea Culpa, posted by Lini on March 13, 2002, at 13:42:42
Ho Lini,
I'm almost bashful about responding since your post says it all, whether you *kmow* it or not, but let me tell you what comes to my mind when I pretend my life depends on providing an opinion on all that defines games and their playing, not that I've ever found myself in that situation...
I imagaine a child who has seriously hurt himself,
but remains absolutuely stoic about it.
take care,
trouble
> Maybe this is what happens when this board takes on too much significance for people. I mean, I think this whole chat thing is great, but this mind games things has thrown me for a loop. Are mind games being deceptive? Being sarcastic? Are mind games saying you'll tell a story but only one sentence at a time or if a certain condition is met? Are mind games logging in as two different people and then arguing with yourself? Are mind games answering everyone's posts, trying to make friends with everyone and becoming popular/known on the board? Are mind games saying one thing on PB, another thing on PSB and something else on PBA? Telling on people on PBA? Being offended by little remarks? Saying you'll never come back?
>
> Maybe if we had an agreed upon definition of what a mind game was, we could avoid it. Or if people simply explained when they're hurt and gave other people a chance to apologize/be supportive.
>
> This whole thing has gotten so highschool. Can't we just take this all a little less personally?
Posted by Krazy Kat on March 14, 2002, at 10:31:22
In reply to Mea Culpa, posted by trouble on March 13, 2002, at 12:22:24
O.K., I'm going to get into real "trouble" for this post. This is a case where I should go for a walk and then come back to respond. But I'm not going to - I'm going to let my anger guide me and this will upset Dr. Bob. I apologize beforehand.
trouble, I have no idea who you are. I have learned nothing about you from your posts. You are quite eloquent at times, but never forthright from what I have seen.
I have Absolutely no idea what you are talking about in this last post. I have paid attention to most of Dinah's posts b/c I enjoy her so much and none of this makes sense. It seems that you are placing some sort of psychosis onto her, when in fact, I Know, and You Know, that psychosis is in you. (ooo, that's cryptic, kind of like your posts - take it as you will.)
You've sort of "taken over" with your personality here, and that is actually one of the reasons I'm not around as much.
You Absolutely owe Dinah an apology for your instigations and you need to take a good, hard at yourself.
Posted by Krazy Kat on March 14, 2002, at 10:33:21
In reply to Re: Mea Culpa » trouble, posted by mair on March 13, 2002, at 16:34:22
You said it much better than I did.
Posted by Krazy Kat on March 14, 2002, at 10:42:13
In reply to Re: Mea Culpa » trouble, posted by Krazy Kat on March 14, 2002, at 10:31:22
Two clarifications:
By "the last post" I meant the one re: Dinah playing games (????) with you. She's completely forthright, there's just no basis for this.
And the final phrase should have been:
"take a good, hard Look at yourself".
And maybe get a little therapeutic help as well.
Posted by Lini on March 14, 2002, at 13:07:55
In reply to Re: Mea Culpa » trouble, posted by Krazy Kat on March 14, 2002, at 10:31:22
I read Trouble's last post as an apology, a realization that people are delicate and one must tread lightly. And Dinah seemed to actually be agreeing with alot of Trouble's points - they were coming from different places and crashed at the intersection of each of their own personal issues. It happens. Game, complication, PB addicition, whatever you want to call it, people over focus on this board and need/expect too much from it and then get let down. Learn from it and move on.Krazy Kat, as a trouble/Dinah fan I hate to see anyone taking sides and giving orders. I think that Dinah and trouble have both found a way to hurt each other and also a way to apologize and hopefully learn from their interactions. Trouble DOES have a strong personality around these here boards, but why not enjoy it? Why does everyone get so threatened by someone in love with this community? Trouble even admitted that it was kinda absorbing, and I am sure was working through it. And, Dinah has her own things to work out, and while trouble may exacerbate them, she didn't cause them and she can't be held responsible for their existence.
I think I have said this before, and BearedLady ala Ani, also pointed this out: we're an online community, and this type of relationship has limitations, no point in wanting, or needing more than "we" can give. I mean look at Lou - he's waiting for us in Tennessee for christ sakes!! So, let's just all relax and enjoy what we can give each other here, and find real live people for the things we can't.
the hopeless referee
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