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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by tina on December 1, 2001, at 16:10:05
In reply to Re: I'm sure I'll be black-listed for this one but...., posted by NikkiT2 on December 1, 2001, at 14:45:54
I have tonnes of scars Nik and they don't seem to bother me much anymore. In this day and age with people who have been injured, badly burned, birth defects etc, I figure my scars won't attract any undue attention and I've had psoriasis all my life so having people ask me about this or that on my arms doesn't faze me.
Don't feel "crap" It's a small price to pay for having you still here with us!!IMO. Rub pure vitamin E oil into the scars for a couple of months if they really bother you. It does help fade them a bit.
love ya sweetie
Tina> Cutting has saved my life in my opinion... there are times when I am so bad, that I *am* going to kill myself, but my butting the pain gives me something else to concentrate on and thus I don't kill myself.
>
> I just hate the scars.. they make me feel... I dunno... crap!!
>
> Nikki
Posted by tina on December 1, 2001, at 16:12:20
In reply to Re: I'm sure I'll be black-listed for this one but...., posted by Greg on December 1, 2001, at 11:50:18
> > is cutting really that bad. I mean, i've been doing it since I was 16 or so and I'm 32 now. It helps. It makes me feel better when nothing else will. No amount of pills can help the way cutting can. So, I ask you, why is it looked upon as an "illness"? Why is it "sick" to do it??
> >
> > its' late. I'm wandering into that strange pre-sleep thinking too much mode as always.........hence my chronic insomnia.
>
> Tina,
>
> You and I have had conversations about this and I have read what I could about cutting. I have to admit that I still don't understand it. In my mind, I don't see how it would help me to do it. I have never done it and I probably never will. And maybe it's my lack of understanding, my way of thinking that leads some to label it as an illness or sickness, I don't know.
>
> While I don't understand why, I know this brings you relief from your pain. And while I may never fully understand why, it won't ever stop me from trying.
>
> Love you hun,
> GregI appreciate your willingness to keep trying. It's part of why you're such a great friend.
thank you for accepting me the way I am.....
LY2
T
Posted by Shar on December 3, 2001, at 2:25:21
In reply to Re: I'm sure I'll be black-listed for this one but.... » Greg, posted by tina on December 1, 2001, at 16:12:20
".....No amount of pills can help the way cutting can. So, I ask you, why is it looked upon as an "illness"? Why is it "sick" to do it"
T:
I don't know about 'sick' or an 'illness' but I do know cutting is self-destructive. The benefit derived from it--what makes you feel so good--is in your psyche. I've heard sometimes it is a control issue; when everything is out of control, cutting is something that CAN be done in a controlled way. Sort of like people who take control of their diets and end up eating very poorly and hurting their health (such as anorexia).I think the likely precursor is being overwhelmed. By stress, family probs, work probs, and other things. The lucky thing is that you might be able to do something about the thing that overwhelms you. Or, maybe not.
I've heard other theories as well. You can tell I don't have up-close and personal experience. I sure don't like the thought of you hurting yourself in any way--even if it feels good at the time, or helps you later on.
Could be a great topic to bring up with a counselor, if you have one or can get one.
I believe deep down inside you know that expressing yourself by harming yourself is not good for you. That is enough to take it off the list of options.
Take care, you!
Shar
Posted by Katey on December 3, 2001, at 7:38:25
In reply to Re: I'm sure I'll be black-listed for this one but...., posted by Shar on December 3, 2001, at 2:25:21
im tempted to agree with you. my therapist (before i got rid of him) yelled at me on multiple occasions for scratching myself. he didnt understand what it was about. i viewed it as completely harmless- it doesnt break the skin, it doesnt leave any marks, and it all fades away by the time im feeling ok. a lot of people would view it as destructive, but in a way its almost constructive. its a release of pain, and it also reminds me that i can still feel things. i dont advocate a large societal movement of cutting therapy, but to each his own.
Posted by Pamela Lynn on December 3, 2001, at 16:09:31
In reply to I'm sure I'll be black-listed for this one but...., posted by tina on November 30, 2001, at 22:28:30
I have "Borderline Personality Disorder"...hence, I used to cut myself up REAL badly as an older teen (I am 30 now). My opinion is that it is a cry for help, a cry out that some sort of cognitive therapy is needed. I cut myself 'alittle too deeply' one time, and I almost lost my life! Then I took on head banging...used to put holes into the walls, I would bang so darn hard! I got a concussion once from the head banging...then I got into therapy. I did my homework and called around, made sure I got a therapist who worked with cognitive therapy.
I just want to say, ESPECIALLY for the younger posters on this board, that cutting is SERIOUS stuff, as is head banging. I don't pass judgement on ANYONE, but....self-mutilation/destruction is just not productive. There are MANY other ways to release the pain, PLEASE, try alternative routes....Anyone in enough pain to cut/hurt themselves should be in some sort of therapy/or on meds. There ARE some good, caring people out there that can help..many hotlines you could call too, before 'cutting'...I am NOT trying to be insensitive, just realistic. I lived the cutting/hurting myself life. It not only has left me with horrible/ugly scars on my body, but has hurt my family and my friends, as well over the time that I was doing the cutting/head banging.
PLEASE, seek help for the cutting. It is not a natural thing to do...just like suicide isn't an answer to pain, to me, in my opinion, neither is cutting/hurting yourself an answer to the pain you are already in.
Thanks for listening to my two cents.
P.L.
> is cutting really that bad. I mean, i've been doing it since I was 16 or so and I'm 32 now. It helps. It makes me feel better when nothing else will. No amount of pills can help the way cutting can. So, I ask you, why is it looked upon as an "illness"? Why is it "sick" to do it??
>
> its' late. I'm wandering into that strange pre-sleep thinking too much mode as always.........hence my chronic insomnia.
Posted by adamie on December 3, 2001, at 22:16:08
In reply to Re: I'm sure I'll be black-listed for this one but.... » tina, posted by Pamela Lynn on December 3, 2001, at 16:09:31
i agree with pamela lynn. cutting not nice. cutting vegetables is okay
> I have "Borderline Personality Disorder"...hence, I used to cut myself up REAL badly as an older teen (I am 30 now). My opinion is that it is a cry for help, a cry out that some sort of cognitive therapy is needed. I cut myself 'alittle too deeply' one time, and I almost lost my life! Then I took on head banging...used to put holes into the walls, I would bang so darn hard! I got a concussion once from the head banging...then I got into therapy. I did my homework and called around, made sure I got a therapist who worked with cognitive therapy.
>
> I just want to say, ESPECIALLY for the younger posters on this board, that cutting is SERIOUS stuff, as is head banging. I don't pass judgement on ANYONE, but....self-mutilation/destruction is just not productive. There are MANY other ways to release the pain, PLEASE, try alternative routes....Anyone in enough pain to cut/hurt themselves should be in some sort of therapy/or on meds. There ARE some good, caring people out there that can help..many hotlines you could call too, before 'cutting'...I am NOT trying to be insensitive, just realistic. I lived the cutting/hurting myself life. It not only has left me with horrible/ugly scars on my body, but has hurt my family and my friends, as well over the time that I was doing the cutting/head banging.
>
> PLEASE, seek help for the cutting. It is not a natural thing to do...just like suicide isn't an answer to pain, to me, in my opinion, neither is cutting/hurting yourself an answer to the pain you are already in.
>
> Thanks for listening to my two cents.
>
> P.L.
>
> > is cutting really that bad. I mean, i've been doing it since I was 16 or so and I'm 32 now. It helps. It makes me feel better when nothing else will. No amount of pills can help the way cutting can. So, I ask you, why is it looked upon as an "illness"? Why is it "sick" to do it??
> >
> > its' late. I'm wandering into that strange pre-sleep thinking too much mode as always.........hence my chronic insomnia.
Posted by Cam W. on December 4, 2001, at 0:43:24
In reply to Re: I'm sure I'll be black-listed for this one but.... » tina, posted by Pamela Lynn on December 3, 2001, at 16:09:31
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2001, at 8:07:31
In reply to I agree, cut the cheese, but not yourself (nm) » Pamela Lynn, posted by Cam W. on December 4, 2001, at 0:43:24
I really don't understand. I mean, I am aware that there are cultural prohibitions, but what I really need is a list of reasons not to self injure to keep in mind when I have the urge to cut.
Obviously, it would be unwise to self injure in any way that could endanger my life or safety. But I self injure in ways that only occasionally leave minimal scars, so that isn't really a concern for me.
My family disapproves of it, but to be honest, in order for me to avoid my family's disapproval I would have to be an absolutely perfect person, so that doesn't really weigh that heavily with me. I do arrange it so that they usually know nothing about it.
The best reason I can come up with is that God gave me this body and I shouldn't deliberately deface it.
I'm currently trying not to self injure mainly because my therapist would rather that I did not.
I don't mean to offend, but general statements that cutting is bad don't really hit home with me. They just confuse me, because I really don't understand.
Posted by Cam W. on December 4, 2001, at 8:27:52
In reply to But why?, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2001, at 8:07:31
Dinah - The skin is an organ (check Trivial Pursuit™) that protects other body organs from infiltration from bacterial and viral parasites. By opening the skin, you are allowing an access point for potentially life-threatening infection. Opening the skin (ie. producing lesions) is the "only" way many fatal infections can gain access to the body. For example, HIV and the flesh-eating staphlococcus bacterium are two that come to mind. Really, unless it is absolutely necessary, skin should remain intact, to maintain homeostasis.
Just my opinion - Cam
Posted by akc on December 4, 2001, at 8:35:32
In reply to But why?, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2001, at 8:07:31
Adding on to Dinah's statements, the general don't do's also come across as very judgmental -- just adding to those already in my life who are disapproving, not understanding of my behavior. I can understand on an intellectual level that cutting is not "good" for me -- but I get a benefit, or I would not do it. And some of these responses just make me want to hide it even more.
I am so fighting the urge to cut right now. It is not a battle I am sure I am going to win.
Posted by mair on December 4, 2001, at 12:18:56
In reply to But why?, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2001, at 8:07:31
> I've cut myself some in the past, like you not horribly badly, and there are times when the urge is so great that it feels that it takes an act of will not to do it now. What I tell myself is that whether or not there is a short term gain, it is not a positive direction for me. It seems to be enough for me to tell myself that it is a step backward, not the status quo or a step forward, and that I don't want to move backwards. It also makes me feel like I haven't evolved beyond adolescense. It's not always easy - I have had to force myself to try to get involved in some other activity, or leave the room where there are rozor blades, but for the last couple of years the fear of moving backwards has been sufficient.
Mair
Maybe also the shame ond embarrassment of telling my therapist. I could tell myself that I won't tell her, but I'm pretty sure it would get out. She does know that the urge is sometimes there.
Posted by judy1 on December 4, 2001, at 18:09:50
In reply to Re: But why? » Dinah, posted by mair on December 4, 2001, at 12:18:56
I've self injured most of my life (since early teens). It is a coping mechanism, and there are many reasons people do it. For me it's a way to bring myself out of a dissociative state. For others, it's a way to express anger, release endorphins so they feel better, etc. I sought help because of shame and to face why I do it. I'm in therapy because it is a symptom of a larger disorder and I want to be well. If you aren't ready to stop, then you would be wasting your therapist's time and your own. I believe if you cut your wrists repeatedly, then there comes a time when the scar tissue won't heal, I think that and the risk of infection are the only physical reasons I can think of. In my case because I dissociate first, I run the risk of cutting myself more severely (and I have). Take care, judy
Posted by tina on December 5, 2001, at 8:53:05
In reply to Re: But why? » Dinah, posted by Cam W. on December 4, 2001, at 8:27:52
You're reaching Cam. This isn't the dark ages. A cut on the arm doesn't cause "morbid blood poisoning" anymore. I'm with Dinah. Cutting is a release that I find very helpful. It's like therapy only better.
Just MY opinion.> Dinah - The skin is an organ (check Trivial Pursuit™) that protects other body organs from infiltration from bacterial and viral parasites. By opening the skin, you are allowing an access point for potentially life-threatening infection. Opening the skin (ie. producing lesions) is the "only" way many fatal infections can gain access to the body. For example, HIV and the flesh-eating staphlococcus bacterium are two that come to mind. Really, unless it is absolutely necessary, skin should remain intact, to maintain homeostasis.
>
> Just my opinion - Cam
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2001, at 17:57:31
In reply to Re: But why? » Cam W., posted by tina on December 5, 2001, at 8:53:05
I just wanted to clarify that I'm not actually advocating cutting. I myself am trying to stop doing it. It's just that I'm not really clear why I'm trying to stop. I'm looking for clear cut reasons why I shouldn't cut that I can maybe write down and use when the urge seems overwhelming. And a sort of cultural "Because I said so" isn't much use.
The last several weeks I have been getting very strong, but intermittant, urges to cut or burn myself. I have so far resisted the urges, but it is hard and I guess I am looking for something to help me help myself.
Posted by akc on December 5, 2001, at 18:08:57
In reply to Re: But why? » Dinah, posted by Cam W. on December 4, 2001, at 8:27:52
Cam,
There are all sorts of things we do that are "bad" for us. Overeating has a definite link to heart disease and other problems. Not getting enough exercise, drinking too much, smoking. I could lengthen this list. But people reach out to these things as a way to cope. The problem with cutting is that it is not an socially "acceptable" coping form. Just your reaction to this thread is a perfect demonstration of that. Where you might encourage a friend to lose some weight or give up smoking because of the harm it does to one's body, you post about the risks of cutting came across as condescending and holier than thou -- not supportive.
I think one of the important things about having discussions about why people might cut is that it helps others to see it as a form of coping -- and then it hopefully will help others respond in a loving, gentle manner in leading them to less harmful ways of dealing with the extreme pain they are in.
And as I have said before here and elsewhere, just telling a person not to do something because it is harmful, wrong, stupid, etc. -- that does not work. Sometimes even offering them another option still does not do the trick. I'm making the choice tonight to take this "easy" road -- I'm in great pain, I don't want to be doped up on alcohol or a benzo (the xanax I could snitch from dog or the klonopin my doctor has offered) because I have a huge project for work I must finished -- but I need a break from what I am going through. And I have no better immediate solution than cutting. It works for me -- or I would not do it, nor would others.
I know it seems odd that inflicting wounds on one's body would offer a respite from emotional pain. Even all the reading I have done, it still amazes me that I make this choice. And while you might not understand the choice or agree with it, I hope you can learn some gentleness to offer those who make the choice.
akc
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2001, at 18:24:02
In reply to Re: But why? » Cam W., posted by akc on December 5, 2001, at 18:08:57
akc,
I'm so sorry for your pain.
If you do make the decision to cut, please try to minimize the damage. We care about you and would hate to see you inadvertantly injure yourself more than intended. And maybe you could make one more try at calling your therapist first? I think I remember that you've gone a while without self injuring and are justifiably proud of that. And by the way, a small dose of Klonopin never interferes with my ability to work or to stay up all night if necessary.
Keep safe.
Dinah
Posted by akc on December 5, 2001, at 18:51:09
In reply to Re: But why? » akc, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2001, at 18:24:02
I have spoken with my t and my pdoc in the past two hours. I've just reached this point where I have to do this. But thanks for the suggestions.
akc
Posted by IsoM on December 5, 2001, at 18:55:27
In reply to Re: But why? » akc, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2001, at 18:24:02
This may seem like the most ignorant question in the world to those who cut themselves, but I have no idea, & I figure only those who feel this way can answer it.
My question is - If you're preparing a meal & have to cut vegetables or more so, meat, does it ever give a similar feel of satisfaction or relaxation like cutting yourself does?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm a picker - I've managed to keep it enough under control that I just pick at the skin at the sides of my nails - sometimes till it bleeds. But I've found that if my fingers are busy picking away at other things, it feels just as satisfying. Not all things feel the same, it has to have a 'certain feel' to it & a resistance to be pulled off but I can substitute inanimate things for the feeling.
I was wondering if cutting into pieces of meat or something with a certain give would help satisfy those cravings or needs without injuring yourself.
Please forgive me if this question seems stupid. Not being a cutter, I'm not sure how exactly you feel about something. I'm not trying to take a holier-than-you approach - just looking for a substitute.
Posted by tina on December 5, 2001, at 19:08:22
In reply to Cutting Anything Else Feel Good?, posted by IsoM on December 5, 2001, at 18:55:27
IsoM
For ME anyway, it wouldn't be the same at all. Not satisfying. I need to 'feel' it myself. It's not the simple act of cutting, it's the release, the pain is the part I personally like. It distracts, releases and makes tangible what seems ghostly, intangible.
It's very hard to explain. Cutting something else just wouldn't suffice. Not in my case.
No question is stupid, I just don't know how to answer yours.
> This may seem like the most ignorant question in the world to those who cut themselves, but I have no idea, & I figure only those who feel this way can answer it.
>
> My question is - If you're preparing a meal & have to cut vegetables or more so, meat, does it ever give a similar feel of satisfaction or relaxation like cutting yourself does?
>
> The reason I'm asking is that I'm a picker - I've managed to keep it enough under control that I just pick at the skin at the sides of my nails - sometimes till it bleeds. But I've found that if my fingers are busy picking away at other things, it feels just as satisfying. Not all things feel the same, it has to have a 'certain feel' to it & a resistance to be pulled off but I can substitute inanimate things for the feeling.
>
> I was wondering if cutting into pieces of meat or something with a certain give would help satisfy those cravings or needs without injuring yourself.
>
> Please forgive me if this question seems stupid. Not being a cutter, I'm not sure how exactly you feel about something. I'm not trying to take a holier-than-you approach - just looking for a substitute.
Posted by tina on December 5, 2001, at 19:12:27
In reply to Re: But why? » Dinah, posted by akc on December 5, 2001, at 18:51:09
Try to keep the cuts small.
I'm sorry you're having such a rotten time akc. I know where you are coming from and I know how hard it is not to cut. I hope you get some relief.
Keep talking, OK....
hugs
tina
> I have spoken with my t and my pdoc in the past two hours. I've just reached this point where I have to do this. But thanks for the suggestions.
>
> akc
Posted by Katey on December 5, 2001, at 19:22:06
In reply to Re: But why? » akc, posted by tina on December 5, 2001, at 19:12:27
ive come to the conclusion that cutters are more in control than people like me who scratch. they know exactly how their doing it, just how hard to push, when to stop, and how to bandage. the only time that i scratch is when i lose control and everything spirals down. i dont break skin, i do it for the burning sensations and the 'art' of the marks left until they fade. i think it would be healthier, maybe not safer, but probably healthier to be a cutter.
Posted by IsoM on December 5, 2001, at 19:38:57
In reply to Re: Cutting Anything Else Feel Good? » IsoM, posted by tina on December 5, 2001, at 19:08:22
Thanks for letting me know, Tina. I didn't realise pain was part of it. Just another question - is seeing the blood flow part of it too, or could you substitute pain without actually getting cut?
My good feeling comes from pulling whatever I've picked off. Pain doesn't enter into it at all. I'm just the sort of person who's always looking for an answer to something, how to fix things. I'm a woman but I'm told I tend to think like a guy - you know how women will just listen to someone's problems, but a guy tries to fix it? That's me. I had to play the part of mother & father so I had to fit both roles.
> IsoM
> For ME anyway, it wouldn't be the same at all. Not satisfying. I need to 'feel' it myself. It's not the simple act of cutting, it's the release, the pain is the part I personally like. It distracts, releases and makes tangible what seems ghostly, intangible.
> It's very hard to explain. Cutting something else just wouldn't suffice. Not in my case.
> No question is stupid, I just don't know how to answer yours.
>
>
> > This may seem like the most ignorant question in the world to those who cut themselves, but I have no idea, & I figure only those who feel this way can answer it.
> >
> > My question is - If you're preparing a meal & have to cut vegetables or more so, meat, does it ever give a similar feel of satisfaction or relaxation like cutting yourself does?
> >
> > The reason I'm asking is that I'm a picker - I've managed to keep it enough under control that I just pick at the skin at the sides of my nails - sometimes till it bleeds. But I've found that if my fingers are busy picking away at other things, it feels just as satisfying. Not all things feel the same, it has to have a 'certain feel' to it & a resistance to be pulled off but I can substitute inanimate things for the feeling.
> >
> > I was wondering if cutting into pieces of meat or something with a certain give would help satisfy those cravings or needs without injuring yourself.
> >
> > Please forgive me if this question seems stupid. Not being a cutter, I'm not sure how exactly you feel about something. I'm not trying to take a holier-than-you approach - just looking for a substitute.
Posted by tina on December 5, 2001, at 21:12:26
In reply to Re: Cutting Anything Else Feel Good? » tina, posted by IsoM on December 5, 2001, at 19:38:57
Oh yeah IsoM, I need the blood too. I started out as a puncher and still enjoy the feeling of punching walls and other hard objects until I can see and feel the warm blood running down my hands and dripping on the ground. Same with the cutting. I love the feel of the blood and the pain. I push myself harder each time because my pain threshold gets higher each time. I prefer the punching of walls but I cut and scratch and burn too. For me, there's a lot of self-punishment feelings involved too. I am a spoiled brat from way back and I guess, since no one punished me for the nasty things I did and sometimes still do, I punish myself. I believe I am not a very nice or smart or attractive person so I need to be punished for that. No one agrees with me so I punish myself.
But I gotta say, I love the feeling of watching the blood run. It's warm. Sometimes its my only proof of life.
> Thanks for letting me know, Tina. I didn't realise pain was part of it. Just another question - is seeing the blood flow part of it too, or could you substitute pain without actually getting cut?
>
> My good feeling comes from pulling whatever I've picked off. Pain doesn't enter into it at all. I'm just the sort of person who's always looking for an answer to something, how to fix things. I'm a woman but I'm told I tend to think like a guy - you know how women will just listen to someone's problems, but a guy tries to fix it? That's me. I had to play the part of mother & father so I had to fit both roles.
>
> > IsoM
> > For ME anyway, it wouldn't be the same at all. Not satisfying. I need to 'feel' it myself. It's not the simple act of cutting, it's the release, the pain is the part I personally like. It distracts, releases and makes tangible what seems ghostly, intangible.
> > It's very hard to explain. Cutting something else just wouldn't suffice. Not in my case.
> > No question is stupid, I just don't know how to answer yours.
> >
> >
> > > This may seem like the most ignorant question in the world to those who cut themselves, but I have no idea, & I figure only those who feel this way can answer it.
> > >
> > > My question is - If you're preparing a meal & have to cut vegetables or more so, meat, does it ever give a similar feel of satisfaction or relaxation like cutting yourself does?
> > >
> > > The reason I'm asking is that I'm a picker - I've managed to keep it enough under control that I just pick at the skin at the sides of my nails - sometimes till it bleeds. But I've found that if my fingers are busy picking away at other things, it feels just as satisfying. Not all things feel the same, it has to have a 'certain feel' to it & a resistance to be pulled off but I can substitute inanimate things for the feeling.
> > >
> > > I was wondering if cutting into pieces of meat or something with a certain give would help satisfy those cravings or needs without injuring yourself.
> > >
> > > Please forgive me if this question seems stupid. Not being a cutter, I'm not sure how exactly you feel about something. I'm not trying to take a holier-than-you approach - just looking for a substitute.
Posted by IsoM on December 5, 2001, at 21:20:32
In reply to Re: Cutting Anything Else Feel Good? » IsoM, posted by tina on December 5, 2001, at 21:12:26
Ah well, Tina, it's something I can sympathise with but not empathise as I know if you don't have that particular mind frame, even the best-intentioned person can't understand it. I think my 19 year old son has what you have somewhat. He's got my type of depression but he loves to endure pain. He says it gives him a feeling of control to see how far he can test his body. He can't understand when I'm in pain from something why I can't just control it like he does. I never quite knew what he meant before. I guess I do now. When I see him again, I'll have to ask. He liked hitting things too but not to injure & wreck them but to test his strength & pain limits. It scares me sometimes on how our brains can be so screwed up.
Posted by akc on December 5, 2001, at 22:42:19
In reply to Cutting Anything Else Feel Good?, posted by IsoM on December 5, 2001, at 18:55:27
I think it is very different for every person who cuts. I don't like to feel any pain whatsoever. For me I like the challenge on seeing how deeply I can cut without causing any pain. The act of doing so, the concentration, I go almost into a dissociative state. Out of this, it helps stop the brain storm I am in. Usually, I become quite calm (too calm, sometimes -- it has worried an er doc or two). The blood is almost a nuisance to me. Cutting on something else would not do -- because of the need to prevent feeling the pain. That is part of the ritual for me.
I don't know if this makes sense at all -- it is quite different than why others do it.
I have wanted in the past to feel pain -- and have tried punching things, etc. But at heart I am a wimp, and cannot cause myself too much pain.
akc
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