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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by Mair on September 27, 2001, at 22:34:02
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Wendy B. on September 26, 2001, at 22:06:59
>I don't want to take sides here. Sar did sound insensitive, but we know that she is not unfeeling. I do think that this tragedy is so unfathomable- so much so that it's difficult to feel connected if it hasn't touched you in some personal way. I've tried to force myself to feel more connected - I read every possible article, particularly those about people who lost loved ones, but it gets pretty numbing. I think I will feel it's emotional effects more acutely as i see it changing my life and those of people around me. This can include things as seemingly mundane as trips not taken, income diminished etc. As shallow as it may sound, these are the things that may make some people feel the most "connected" to this.
Mair
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
> >
> > i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
> >
> > i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
> >
> > an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
> >
> > rilly.
> >
> > love,
> >
> > sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by Marie1 on September 28, 2001, at 8:24:23
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 26, 2001, at 2:11:46
Sar,
I'm assuming I was one of the "few" who misinterpreted your response to our national tragedy in the earlier thread. But after reading this, I don't think I did. I don't see how you can accept the crime against our country, as though it's something we must have deserved, when you read and watch the affects of it on the victims? How can these be separated? How can this horror ever be justified, on any level, political or otherwise? I'm really struggling to understand your position.
Marie> this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
>
> i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
>
> i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
>
> an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
>
> rilly.
>
> love,
>
> sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 28, 2001, at 10:56:10
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Marie1 on September 28, 2001, at 8:24:23
> Sar,
> I think I understand to some extent what you're saying - that it's just so far removed from reality for you? It's just that your post is quite instigating.
I wasn't going to post this, but I think I will.
People in Battery Park City are coming back to their apartments and finding body parts. There are body parts on the lower roofs in downtown New York, office furniture and pieces of people's clothing and pieces of them just sitting on top of a building.
Rescue workers are fainting because of exhaustion and because of the stinch. They have to sift through everything to try to find pieces of human flesh that can be identified.
The city is somber and empty. It's as if its heart was ripped out. People are still moving about, but their eyes are vacant.
Taoism has some good ideas re: living in the moment and accepting things you can't change. It does not call on you to ignore strife and tragedy.
- K.
Posted by Dinah on September 28, 2001, at 11:32:40
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-the horror in NY, posted by Krazy Kat on September 28, 2001, at 10:56:10
I wasn't going to post anything on this subject either. But I didn't want you to think you were alone in your opinions. The whole thing is so distressing, and it is bringing up a lot of reactions that are raw, and have a lot to do with our prior beliefs and feelings about our country. I myself am no war advocate, but I can see the difference between military actions designed to defend our country from any future unwarranted acts of aggression and retaliation. I am aware that there are those who would dispute my use of the word "unwarranted", but when you think of all those people going to work, or trying to help others, who were killed - and even worse, all the loved ones of those people, "unwarranted" seems to fit, regardless of any unwise decisions our government has made in the past.
However, I am still very much in the mourning phase, and the awed appreciation for the rescue workers and the passengers on the plane in PA and it is very hard for me to be supportive of certain posts, although I am trying hard to separate them (the posts) from the posters. I am trying to remember the flat unemotional feeling that I felt while on Luvox (I couldn't feel anything when my beloved dog died), and I am wondering if that has anything to do with sar's problems in feeling the intensity of our loss.
Thanks, krazy kat, for bringing us the images that TV doesn't show us and for reminding us of the humanity of this moment.
Posted by Noa on September 28, 2001, at 16:15:07
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-Wendy B, Krazy Kat, posted by Dinah on September 28, 2001, at 11:32:40
When I read Sar's post, it was hard for me to know how to read it, but I erred on the side of it being her honest description of what was going on for her emotionally, not necessarily a statement of philosophy. I think it is important to make that distinction. As Dinah points out, this is so enormous and so distressing for so many people, that we all deal with it in different ways.
I think for many of us, the turn off switch needs to kick in sometimes--to disconnect us from what could be overwhelming floods of fear and sadness and rage, etc. I think it is also why when a thread like this is started, it doesn't take long for the conversation to shift from our own individual emotional reactions to focusing on what the country should do about the attacks. It is just too hard to sit with the feelings for most of us, don't you think?
Sometimes I think it is very hard for people to feel connected to an event. The visual images were surreal, weren't they? For me, it was only after the media focused on some personal stories that it started to seem more real to me. Also, for some reason, the image of the towers on fire and collapsing seemed unreal to me, but when I saw the clouds of ash and dust billowing down the narrow streets and people running to escape them, I think I connected to the other (non-visual) sensory aspects of that (thought of being surrounded by this monstrous cloud, not being able to breathe, etc.) and that made it more real to me, although I continue to grapple with absorbing that this horrible horrible thing really did happen. I think our brains aren't very open to absorbing this kind of input--for me, anyway, I think it probably challenges everything my brain knows about my world and how I go along in my life assuming I will generally be safe.
ALso, I think the sheer numbers are too big to comprehend. I mean how often is it that you and I actually deal with six or seven thousand of anything? If we spend that much in dollars, it is usually a safe bet to say we don't deal in cash, let alone single dollar bills. I have never amassed any collection of six or seven thousand items. How many is six or seven thousand people? I guess I would need someone to give me an analogy of some kind of gathering place where I could actually visualize that many people. If there are about 200 people on a full airplane, that would be like 30 to 35 full airplanes of people. Even that doesn't help me imagine how many people. My brain just resists it. Or perhaps it would help to visualize the size of a neighborhood that would house that many people and their families, left behind. If someone could draw such an analogy and I could compare it to a neighborhood I am familiar with, maybe then the concept of the number of people killed would be something I could understand.
Posted by Kristi on September 28, 2001, at 18:30:33
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by Noa on September 28, 2001, at 16:15:07
Noa...
Very well said!That last paragraph especially... has me thinking. How to comprehend that number. Well, that'll keep me busy tonight.
Kristi
> When I read Sar's post, it was hard for me to know how to read it, but I erred on the side of it being her honest description of what was going on for her emotionally, not necessarily a statement of philosophy. I think it is important to make that distinction. As Dinah points out, this is so enormous and so distressing for so many people, that we all deal with it in different ways.
>
> I think for many of us, the turn off switch needs to kick in sometimes--to disconnect us from what could be overwhelming floods of fear and sadness and rage, etc. I think it is also why when a thread like this is started, it doesn't take long for the conversation to shift from our own individual emotional reactions to focusing on what the country should do about the attacks. It is just too hard to sit with the feelings for most of us, don't you think?
>
> Sometimes I think it is very hard for people to feel connected to an event. The visual images were surreal, weren't they? For me, it was only after the media focused on some personal stories that it started to seem more real to me. Also, for some reason, the image of the towers on fire and collapsing seemed unreal to me, but when I saw the clouds of ash and dust billowing down the narrow streets and people running to escape them, I think I connected to the other (non-visual) sensory aspects of that (thought of being surrounded by this monstrous cloud, not being able to breathe, etc.) and that made it more real to me, although I continue to grapple with absorbing that this horrible horrible thing really did happen. I think our brains aren't very open to absorbing this kind of input--for me, anyway, I think it probably challenges everything my brain knows about my world and how I go along in my life assuming I will generally be safe.
>
> ALso, I think the sheer numbers are too big to comprehend. I mean how often is it that you and I actually deal with six or seven thousand of anything? If we spend that much in dollars, it is usually a safe bet to say we don't deal in cash, let alone single dollar bills. I have never amassed any collection of six or seven thousand items. How many is six or seven thousand people? I guess I would need someone to give me an analogy of some kind of gathering place where I could actually visualize that many people. If there are about 200 people on a full airplane, that would be like 30 to 35 full airplanes of people. Even that doesn't help me imagine how many people. My brain just resists it. Or perhaps it would help to visualize the size of a neighborhood that would house that many people and their families, left behind. If someone could draw such an analogy and I could compare it to a neighborhood I am familiar with, maybe then the concept of the number of people killed would be something I could understand.
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:41:14
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Wendy B. on September 26, 2001, at 22:06:59
> sar,
>
> sorry, your post has me feeling kind of rawly upset.Wendy,
i'm sorry this happened, and i want to iron this out.
> i think what you say trivializes the incredible suffering and sorrow that millions of people are feeling right now about the WTC and pentagon horrors, whether they live in or near those places or not. you even have relatives who have been affected! it's hard to comprehend.
"it's hard to comprehend"--that's exactly right. it is difficult to comprehend because i'm not THERE. i posted that message rather offhandedly and somewhat obnoxiously, i agree, but i posted i on PSB. PSYCH-SOCIAL BABBLE. i am rather FUCT-UP emotionally, and i thought that this was an appropriate place to post how i truly feel, because do i feel threatened, scared, truly affected? no, not really. that's just the brutal truth. i'm not at all politically correct.
when i was in ninth grade, my dad read a newspaper story to me about a gruesome train wreck in which all or most of the passengers were killed. i cried intermittently all day. since that time, some crazy shit has happened to me, and my defenses have grown.
i spent half my work day crying in the bathroom, Receiving, and the lounge, but i had no idea why. the tears get all clogged up and burst out.
> would you extend your unconcern to jews in europe in the 1930s and 40s? what about black folks being lynched in mississippi and other places in the south, in the 40s 50s and 60s and beyond? what would give you the most bang for your buck in terms of the horror and death that's as close as your nearest television set? maybe nbc and cnn aren't doing good enough jobs representing to you the sorrow and the tears.
i cried when i read elie weisel's *Night.* i wrote a letter to Johanna Reiss in grade 6; she'd written a true-life account of being a hidden-away Jew during the holocaust and it touched me so much that i had to get in contact with her. she sent me a postcard in return, which i treasure to this day. i love the Free Mumia rallies. the racism i've seen in the southeast particularly has truly pissed me off. ever been to South Carolina? prepare to feel angry and helpless.
> how about a trip to downtown NYC, you could stand on top of the pile of rubble. "hey! i hear they're doing tours now! but it'll cost you a few bucks for the vicarious thrill..."yes, that's what it would honestly take. i have to see it firsthand. i'm trashy, i need the vicarious thrill, maybe i'm emotionally retarded and can't obtain it from the media. the still pictire of dan rather crying on dave letterman went to my heart, but i sell copy after copy of newsweek at work, i lead people to the koran, the suicidal part of me shouts, "bomb here!" let the cool new yorkers live...
> i like shopping as much as the next person, but please. what you have written is 'rilly' disrespectful.totally true! i am wrong, politically incorrect, disgusting, disresprectful. i'm not being snide or sarcastic, i'm being completely honest, my lack of feelings about these attacks and deaths BOTHERS me, which is precisely why i posted a semi-provocative but britally honest message on this board. this isn't a site about politics, manners, or patriotism--it's about psychological issues. my issue is that i don't feel much.
> i have shown a lot of concern and care toward you; i think i have tried to convey that many times in many postings to you. so now i must express my fear that you are so out of touch that you have lost your humanity. and you seem to be bragging about it. some things may be better left unsaid.Wendy, i've so appreciated all of the support you've given me, i dig you so much, and this misunderstanding bothers me. i really may have lost my humanity, that's true. the other day a friend of mine and i moved a dead cat out of the street and into some soft grass and informed the owner's neighbors. i can still see this bloody post-rigor-mortis calico in my mind. maybe i'm stuck in that freudian stage or whatever in which if i can't see it immediately before my eyes, it doesn't exist.
> i can't help wondering: do you think you are immune to this type of thing happening to you? ww III could be starting right in your back yard, the fanatics are trying to poison your drinking water and mine, too. those among the living in metropolitan nyc are worried about nerve gas in the subways, and now live in fear every single day that they'll be targets once again. and you won't be worried until you can't buy a new trinket, because your lifestyle will have had to change. poor you.yes, that's really true. i'm all-or-nothing. if i can't have banana republic i'd rather be a street urchin wearing a burlap sack. my perspective is all out of whack. i'm just being honest, i appreciate you helping to put things in perspective, but i don't think i should be flogged for my feelings, *particularly* because most of my hippie-type friends feel the same way. (i do have some military buds, and they are ready to be deployed. they've fire in their eyes.)
i respect both ways.
> have you seen the film 'Behind the Veil'? afghan women are being beaten, tortured, and executed by the taliban extremists, for failing to cover their bodies with enough clothes or veils. if anything shows through, they are subject to the most cruel human rights violations. shopping at the mall isn't on their agendas for today, or for any day, for that matter. they can't work, they can't have money... women who were teachers and professionals prior to the taliban forces taking over are now rendered helpless. they don't do anything unless a man says it's ok first. they can't get educations. you wouldn't endure 5 days of that, much less 5 or 10 years.
i haven't seen the film, but the oppression of women not only in the taliban but in africa really gets under my skin. the veils in the middle east, the clitoridectomies in africa--i am not unaware. i know of the mistreatment and am strongly afainst it; i haven't done anything proactively against it, but my opinion has been set since i started reading Jane Pratt's *Sassy* ten years ago: this worldwide mistreatment of the female gender is outrageous.
> bush and the flag-wavers are scrambling to try to figure out what to do, but we know it'll be foolish and careless. the lives of innocent civilians will be on the line, but who gives a shit about them, right? the terrorists will then hate us even more, and your future and mine will become even less stable.a co-worker of mine in his forties wears a tee-shirt that says MY SON IS IN THE AIR FORCE. today his son got all of his official badges and uniform, their family had a celebratory dinner, and my co-worker brought the son to out workplace to show him off. it warms my heart that he's so proud of his son, so confident in him, but i've already got flashbulb shots of this kid in my head: he'll be dead within the year. and i will be crushed.
> death and destruction and evil are real.
i agree.
> taoist? it's all just a sham.
taoism? or my claim of believing in taoist theory?
> i know i'm gonna be blasted for my post, by you and many others, and will likely get banned. but i'd rather be banned for feeling too strongly, rather than not enough. or not at all.
wendy, your post is completely appropriate. i only wish i could feel as appropriately as you do. when i step on a roly-poly, i feel like cring. when i think of world war, i feel nothing.
in my defense, i think this was all appropriate to post on PSB. i apologize if anyone took disrespect to it.
my post is just this: it has not HIT ME YET. yes, i would need to see the body parts and smell the stench. i would need to be around the victims to feel this. i don't watch television much or even read the paper more than once or twice a week--i'm self-centered right now. it's really disgusting.
and it's honest.
respectfully,
sar
> wendy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
> >
> > i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
> >
> > i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
> >
> > an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
> >
> > rilly.
> >
> > love,
> >
> > sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:58:43
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Marie1 on September 28, 2001, at 8:24:23
> Sar,
> I'm assuming I was one of the "few" who misinterpreted your response to our national tragedy in the earlier thread. But after reading this, I don't think I did. I don't see how you can accept the crime against our country, as though it's something we must have deserved, when you read and watch the affects of it on the victims? How can these be separated? How can this horror ever be justified, on any level, political or otherwise? I'm really struggling to understand your position.
> Mariedear Marie,
please read my response to Wendy, because that explains my position as eloquently as i can handle right now.
i am not a patritoic american.
am i upset that this has happened? yes, very much so. do i feel it viscerally? no. as i posted to Wendy, i don't want to get into any type of political argument. we are posting on PSYCHO-SOCIAL BABBLE, and i am only honestly revealing, somewhat flippantly, embarrassedly, horribly, how i truly feel. as i posted to Wendy, i'm not politcally correct. im' not proud to be an american. i feel we terribly exploit other countries and that most americans are not aware of the extent.
i wish i could feel more for new york, i wish it would make me scream and sob, i wish i wish i i wish i wish i wish i wish
but i don't& i don't lie
maybe i've lost my humanity, as Wendy suggests. in my mind thought, it's just that i can't comprehend: you know how they say no one can comprehend the size/space/time of the universe/cosmos? i can't understand this tragedy because i did not see it firsthand.
again, i want to stress that i wish to offend no one: i'm simply expressing how i feel where i feel it is appropriate.
sincerely,
sar
> > this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
> >
> > i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
> >
> > i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
> >
> > an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
> >
> > rilly.
> >
> > love,
> >
> > sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:59:58
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:58:43
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 2:07:55
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-the horror in NY, posted by Krazy Kat on September 28, 2001, at 10:56:10
> > Sar,
>
> > I think I understand to some extent what you're saying - that it's just so far removed from reality for you? It's just that your post is quite instigating.
>
> I wasn't going to post this, but I think I will.
>
> People in Battery Park City are coming back to their apartments and finding body parts. There are body parts on the lower roofs in downtown New York, office furniture and pieces of people's clothing and pieces of them just sitting on top of a building.
>
> Rescue workers are fainting because of exhaustion and because of the stinch. They have to sift through everything to try to find pieces of human flesh that can be identified.
>
> The city is somber and empty. It's as if its heart was ripped out. People are still moving about, but their eyes are vacant.
>
> Taoism has some good ideas re: living in the moment and accepting things you can't change. It does not call on you to ignore strife and tragedy.
>
> - K.dear K.,
i think this message moved me the most. i haven't kept up with the media for a few years. a friend of mine told me that jon stuart of the Daily Show lost it several times afetr one of his first airings after tha ttacks becaus ehis apartment overlooks the trade centers and he could se strewn-about body parts.
if jon stuart could fall apart on TV then i believe that it must be horribly tragic, and i appreciate the understanding nature of your post.
certainly taoism does not call on to ignore. i am scheduled to donate blood this saturday, have contacted my peeps with friends/relatives in the area..i don't know what more i can do. if i could afford to donate money, i would. if they'd fly me out to new tork to dig through the rubble, i would. i feel helpless. disconnected completely.
taosim calls on you to empty yourself in order to fulfill and be fulfilled. i have blood, lots of it, and i'll give as much as they'll let me.
love ya,
sar
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 2:12:01
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-Wendy B, Krazy Kat, posted by Dinah on September 28, 2001, at 11:32:40
the drugs have numbed me a bit.
i just don't feel terrified because--i would love to be bombed. i'm deeply suicidal. i do not value my own life, so how much can i truly value the lives of others? really?
i wouldn't mind dying by terrorist attack.
i feel my suicidal frame of mind makes it more difficult for me to sympathize.
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2001, at 4:17:56
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-Dinah, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 2:12:01
Hi sar,
I do understand all of that, and I'm sorry if that didn't come through in my post. I've felt the emotional numbness and know how awful it feels. In fact, to some extent I still feel it. The sheer magnitude of the tragedy is hard to comprehend. The videos often seem like a bad movie scene. The still photos affect me much more, as did Krazy Kat's description.
I also understand that not wanting to live does make it hard to feel scared. My deepest sympathy lies for those left behind to grieve. I can't imagine what I would do if it were my husband in those towers. I can't imagine what I would tell my son.
I hope that you have a good therapist that you can discuss your feelings with. I've been a mess since this happened, in ways that have seemingly had no connection to the tragedy at all. It seems as if the "sad" and "angry" and "generally upset" doors have all opened and are flooding out all over.
I hope you understand that I wasn't trying to be unsupportive or critical. It's just that this issue is a sensitive one to many people right now (and in different ways). That's why I really didn't want to post about it.
I'm sorry if my post in any way contributed to your distress.
Very sincerely,
Dinah
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 11:52:13
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2001, at 4:17:56
Dinah,
thank you for your kind understanding. it really pleases and amazes me that you can respnd with such empathy even though you feel completely differently than i do about what is, i agree, a national tragedy.
you did not contribute at all to my distress. it makes me feel a little bit lighter knowing that some understand.
intellectually, i can envision the photos i've seen, feel bad at the sheer magnitude of the numbers of people who died such gruesome deaths, i can think about all of this in my head, it just hasn't travelled down to my heart yet. my stomach only feels bad because i don't feel anything.
thank you.
sincerely,
sar
Posted by Marie1 on September 29, 2001, at 15:47:24
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » Dinah, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 11:52:13
Sar,
You are absolutely right - what you wrote in this thread is totally appropriate. You are being honest and open about your feelings. I apologise if I came across as being judgemental (actually I regretted posting as soon as I did. Where's the "undo"??). I was sincerely trying to understand how you felt - I'm a good one for wearing someone else's moccasins. And I think maybe I get it now. It's like how I quit wearing my seatbelt when at the worst in my illness. It's so hard to give a sh*t about anything. And physical proximity probably does count for some emotions. It makes me cry to read of a neighbor I didn't really know who was on the flight that crashed into the Pentagon. I truly don't think I could cope with body parts strewn over my neighborhood. And in all honesty- now don't get mad (:-)- I think age may be a factor here, too. I think as we get older, we hopefully become more compassionate and more aware of the fragility of the short time we spend here. (Please don't take that to be patronizing; I really don't intend it to be.)
Again, I'm sorry that I put you on the spot and that you felt the need to defend yourself. Take care, Sar.
Marie> Dinah,
>
> thank you for your kind understanding. it really pleases and amazes me that you can respnd with such empathy even though you feel completely differently than i do about what is, i agree, a national tragedy.
>
> you did not contribute at all to my distress. it makes me feel a little bit lighter knowing that some understand.
>
> intellectually, i can envision the photos i've seen, feel bad at the sheer magnitude of the numbers of people who died such gruesome deaths, i can think about all of this in my head, it just hasn't travelled down to my heart yet. my stomach only feels bad because i don't feel anything.
>
> thank you.
>
> sincerely,
> sar
Posted by Jane D on September 29, 2001, at 20:21:41
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-Dinah, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 2:12:01
> the drugs have numbed me a bit.
>
> i just don't feel terrified because--i would love to be bombed. i'm deeply suicidal. i do not value my own life, so how much can i truly value the lives of others? really?
>
> i wouldn't mind dying by terrorist attack.
>
> i feel my suicidal frame of mind makes it more difficult for me to sympathize.
Sar - I've been wondering when someone would raise this. I didn't have the nerve to do it myself. Over time I've seen people here report being unable to care about friends, relatives, even spouses and get understanding because we all know this is part of the nature of the beast. Why shouldn't the same understanding apply to being unable to care for strangers? I also think fear is a large part of most peoples reactions right now. As soon as it happened I started doing a mental analysis of just how near I lived to any other likely targets (and just how likely they were) and I know I wasn't alone in this. We focus our energy on the things that are the biggest threat to us personally. Not wanting to live is probably a greater risk in your life than terrorist attack. It is in mine. It will also impair your life far more than the loss of privacy, increased security checks or falling economy that others fear will.I wonder if this also ties in to the ongoing stigma attached to mental illness. The stigma on physical disabilities or illnesses* has been successfully attacked by repeating "Look, we're just like you. We value the same things - react the same way". The mentally ill can't always make that claim. How they react may be unpredictable and therefore legitimately frightening. Not people you want backing you up in a tight spot. Therefore stigmatized and shunned as a form of self defense.
Just talking out loud.
Jane
* I am using physical here to describe visible disabilites such as being unable to walk. Not causality.
Posted by Kristi on September 29, 2001, at 21:37:21
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:58:43
Sar,
Your honesty is refreshing... and you definately can't help the way you feel..... you can't make yourself feel something. I also feel very differently than you.... but would never fault you. I admire your courage to write something that I know you know you would have been attacked for. If there is one thing we've learned.... life may be very short for some.... so just in case it's you... or one of us.... be happy. I hate to hear you sound so pained. I really wish I can help. Hang in there.... I need you around. Love, Kristi
> > Sar,
> > I'm assuming I was one of the "few" who misinterpreted your response to our national tragedy in the earlier thread. But after reading this, I don't think I did. I don't see how you can accept the crime against our country, as though it's something we must have deserved, when you read and watch the affects of it on the victims? How can these be separated? How can this horror ever be justified, on any level, political or otherwise? I'm really struggling to understand your position.
> > Marie
>
> dear Marie,
>
> please read my response to Wendy, because that explains my position as eloquently as i can handle right now.
>
> i am not a patritoic american.
>
> am i upset that this has happened? yes, very much so. do i feel it viscerally? no. as i posted to Wendy, i don't want to get into any type of political argument. we are posting on PSYCHO-SOCIAL BABBLE, and i am only honestly revealing, somewhat flippantly, embarrassedly, horribly, how i truly feel. as i posted to Wendy, i'm not politcally correct. im' not proud to be an american. i feel we terribly exploit other countries and that most americans are not aware of the extent.
>
> i wish i could feel more for new york, i wish it would make me scream and sob, i wish i wish i i wish i wish i wish i wish
>
>
> but i don't
>
> & i don't lie
>
> maybe i've lost my humanity, as Wendy suggests. in my mind thought, it's just that i can't comprehend: you know how they say no one can comprehend the size/space/time of the universe/cosmos? i can't understand this tragedy because i did not see it firsthand.
>
> again, i want to stress that i wish to offend no one: i'm simply expressing how i feel where i feel it is appropriate.
>
> sincerely,
> sar
>
>
> > > this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
> > >
> > > i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
> > >
> > > i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
> > >
> > > an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
> > >
> > > rilly.
> > >
> > > love,
> > >
> > > sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by galtin on September 30, 2001, at 0:43:55
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 26, 2001, at 2:11:46
> this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
>
> i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
>
> i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
>
> an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
>
> rilly.
>
> love,
>
> sarthesecretmallratsar- It is hard for me to take in the "World Trade Center Tragedy" but am deeply saddened when I read about particular individuals who died. Is this a character defect? Maybe. But maybe it's also due to everybody talking too much (as I prattle on). And I find what people talk about often distracting and unsettling.
For example, I have heard scores of people pronounce that "nothing will ever be the same." I suppose we could debate the meaning of "nothing," but on a common sense level these assertions are silly. Sure, some things will change--airport security, access by care into NYC, people's sense of vulnerability. But these and other changes will either will eventually melt into "normalcy." But deeper changes in our national psyche, in our acquisitive nature, in our reliance on the estimation of others for our self-worth, in our frequent selfishness? History provides us with overwhelming evidence that none of this will change. Sure, there is going to be alot of self-congratulatory talk about how courageous, generous and relilient we Americans are. And it is true, sometimes. But by talking so damn much about it we suffocate the actual experience of being these things and substitute the surreal experience of hearing others and ourselves talk about it. Same with the tragedy itself. After awhile all the palaver, esp. on TV overshadows the tragedy itself and the almost unbearable sad fates of so many people. With our penchant for the overdramatization of our own reactions we dishonor those who died and those who will be without them.
And after all this self-inspection we will eventually wake up to realize that very little has changed. Maybe one of the reasons behind so much talk is that many Americans don't realize the this and far, far worse has happened innumerable times in the course of history. In the past year or two alone, tens of thousands have lost their lives to brutality and butchery.
In fact, we have mostly forgotten the ultimate lesson of the Titanic, the sinking of which produced a national crisis of confidence and a conflagration of soul-searching and "reprioritizing." What came of it all? Was everything changed forever?This recent disaster is a tragedy partly because untimately nothing redemptive or transforming will come of it. 99.9% of us will drift back into the ebb and flow of our lives and concerns.
What I am increasingly hearing is little in the way of sadness for the victims and much more in the way of a focus on our own feelings. And so, once again, the real topic of concern is. . . me. Yesterday I heard a person talk in excrutiating detail about her cousin's boyfriends, step-brothers uncle's angle of vision from New Jersey as the Twin Towers came down. I hear this stuff all the time. Along with the wearying platitudes about all evil giving birth to good, God bringing meaning from tragedy and other confidently stated certainties about what it all means. There is no ultimate meaning that redeems the loss of 6,000 lives. The world we live in is(was, and will be) subject to the passions of evil, the disinterest of the self-absorbed, our love of overdramatization, and to the impossibility of a perfect freedom from calamity and fear.
Maybe all it means is that like every century of human existence there are evil people around to provide fleeting reminders that we are always vulnerable, from attacks without and certainly from attacks that come from deep within ourselves.
I know that this is somewhat exaggerated. I know that many people have genuine feelings of sorrow and horror. These feelings have unassailable authenticity. They would be more ennobled if we quit talking about them and quit trying draw some lesson for life from it all.
Now I will try out my own entreaty, and shut up.
galtin
Posted by Wendy B. on September 30, 2001, at 7:40:58
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » Wendy B., posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:41:14
sar:
i'm an ass.......
i have to curb the impulse to make everyone try to feel what i do, when of course, they don't always.
i don't think you need to justify yourself. i don't want you to think you can't feel safe talking about your feelings, that would be bad for you and for the PS-Board. i'm glad you've written back, to me and the others. maybe it'll be a way to work out some of the numbness.
my tendency is to over-empathize, so as not to get to my own feelings - just focus on the feelings of others who are in pain.
next time i write: 'some things are better left unsaid,' i should take it to heart myself. i never meant to hurt you. and i should keep myself in check better. so please keep writing, i'll still be listening...
yer frend,
wemdy
Posted by shelliR on September 30, 2001, at 12:07:57
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 26, 2001, at 2:11:46
> an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
>
> rilly.
>
> love,
>
> sarthesecretmallratSar, generally I love your posts and have great feeling for you. The thing that is irriating me about your posts in this thread and the other is that you keep saying that you want to deal with your response on a emotional level, not a political level.
So I understand the feelings and the numbness. But I don't think you have been true to your word. At least twice you have mentioned, "i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree."
That to me that is not an statement; it is a political statement. And the fact that you say you do not feel patriotic or proud of your country. Those also are political statements. So I don't think you are being totally up front. I think you *do* have political feelings that are mixed up in this . Which would be fine if you didn't keep running away from that fact, and coming to the conclusion that no one is understanding you because you really want to have feelings, but you can't.
When I was much younger than you and marched against the Vietnam War, I felt it was my responsiblity to let our goverment know that I was totally against their policy. So that was a political statement. It was different in my mind from an unpatriotic statement, because the United States is my country, and I had (and have) the freedom to say that I believe that our government's policy was not a good one. So I do understand what it feels like to disagree with your own government.
But as you have said. This thread is not about political beliefs. (Or is it?)
Shelli
>
Posted by sar on September 30, 2001, at 22:53:58
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Marie1 on September 29, 2001, at 15:47:24
not at all a problem, i took no offense.
i do agree that age can be a great determining factor in ability to empathize.
at this point i'm only disgusted with the commercial aspects of this. at work we just received a shipment of WTC calendars. for every purchase, $1 goes to a widows & childrens fund. the intentions sound good but it still leaves a sick feeling in my stomach.
i'm just glad you understand. i'm not very good at putting myself in the other's mocassins, i'm afraid--it's a skill i'm still working on (starting to work on?)
goodnight, marie.
love,
sar
Posted by sar on September 30, 2001, at 23:09:13
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Jane D on September 29, 2001, at 20:21:41
well, i've always been a hellraiser & all... :)
over a period of months, i cried my eyes out over some close friend of mine who didn't understand my perdition. his way is to draw away when other people are down; my way id to rush to them. if i had the time and money, i'd be in NYC to help out. but down here in my texan existence, i've poor object-constancy.
are suicidal thoughts the greatest threat to your life? they are mine. that puts it in such bizarre perspective, all the go-getter WTC people murdered for irrational and disgusting reasons--i try to read about them in the paper individually so that i can care more, but sometimes it just swings back the opposite way, because you know what they always say about the deceased..."he was always a hero" etc what have you, even though it may be true it just gets redundant...
do you find that depression is largely a selish/selfless illness? the feeling of not existing mixed with being obsessed with that feeling?
so right you are about impairment. they can look through my bag but will the neurontin kick in, will i make i through the day?
you're a smartypants, Jane. it seems like you just hopped into PSB, i don't know if you're new or not, but i like what you have to say.
sar
Posted by sar on September 30, 2001, at 23:14:39
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-sar, posted by Kristi on September 29, 2001, at 21:37:21
dear Kristi,
i think you're an absolute feeler-sweetheart. how are you?
sometimes i like to be brutally honest so people can react however they will, and it helps me decide whether or not i'm a weirdo or not.
i've been pained in the past few days. i don't know what happened. i went from some sort of neurontin bliss to pure fucking hell. i think it may be physical, i've gotta go to a doctor, the suicidal feelings are always with me nothing new, don't worry about that, babe...
how are the casinos treating you? been smoking? i've been rationalizing my smoking by smoking pipe tobacco! hee hee...
love ya girl,
sar
Posted by sar on September 30, 2001, at 23:48:09
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by galtin on September 30, 2001, at 0:43:55
dear galtin,
i think the media loves a good stew for whatever it's worth. "things will never be the same again"--aaahhh, they love that one, it makes for a good pronouncemnt/headline...
on a micro-level though, things will never be the same for the 6500 or so dead or missing in the attacks, not to mention the countless numers of friends/family of these people. nothing will ever be the same for me when my mom dies, whether it be cancer, bullet, or fire.
so our national security has beem threatened. i am such i *naive* american that the morning of September 11, when my brother told me, "a plane just crashed into the WTC 5 minutes ago" i thought huh, a major news story of the day...it'll be over within 3 days...
then i learned of the death toll...
i think the american way of "self-congratulatory talk" fosters self-esteem, which fosters national pride and strength... i don't necessarily agree with these ideals, but i can see how the "we're winners!" declaration could contribute to a real sense of security and a false sense of reality...what is a "winner"?
i do think tens of thousands have been directly affected by this...whether they be survivors or airline workers and whomever else...
i do think that the media, at times, whores certain things out based on what's going on that's considered "newsworthy" or not. i worked for a newspaper for 6 months, and we always went for the gitziesty. out goal always being to beating out the factuality/writing-style/dramatic quotes of the opponent newspaper.
this attck, of course, requires immediate and constant reporting, it's just that...
i want to acknowledge the real hurt out there, the media frenzy just doesn't affect my head...Gulf War is over? oh, were we in a war (grade 7). heidi fleiss, arrested (awright, some glam there). downey in jail again? (boor babe). columbine? (my school had an unoffical "trenchcoat mafia too." they didn't kill people, but they did kilkl animals and make bombs...what, the embittered dorks bomb the school? rent *heathers,* please...
i've no lesson of life. i don't want to entreaty anything. i'm down here miles away from reality. i'm just grateful i'm not a complete alien.sar
Posted by sar on October 1, 2001, at 0:04:26
In reply to Re: Terror... sorry » sar, posted by Wendy B. on September 30, 2001, at 7:40:58
dear wendy,
you are not, by any means, an ass.
i like to try to make evryone what i belilve too, but it only rarely works completely...
your over-ability to empathize is a gift....i have to burn my hands on the stove over and over again to teach mysel a lesson and to learn from others. i can only empathize with what i know. (may i tell an anecdote here? i think i will. 3 of my friends were declared "depressed" by our other friends last year, as was i. these 3 , at the same time they were accusing me of being "bored with my life" and "directionles"--i thought they were completely suicidal and dead inside! can we say PROJECTION?
anyway, i don't know where i was going with that. as far as things being better left unsaid, i don't agree with that--not for myself, anyway. i like to bring up the taboo simply because i happen to feel it, i want to know if others do but they're not speaking; out of respect for any survivors of the WTC tragedy who might be reading this, i'm extremely and deeply sorry, but i know that there are countless others left only half-jaw-dropped to the event, and those are my kind, they're the ones i want to hear from, well i want to hear from anyone really, anyone anyone with thoughts on this topic...
you didn't hurt me. i was a bit taken aback by th rebel-like abrasivesness of yr post, but that's WendyB, n'est-ce pas? you're like that, i wouldn't have expected anything else. that you've been so supportive of me in the past bothers me that we differ so greatly on this one topic, but i'm hoping we can chalk it up to--differences in personality? age? proximity?
yr kb,
sar
Posted by sar on October 1, 2001, at 0:17:38
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by shelliR on September 30, 2001, at 12:07:57
ah ah ah my dear Shelli,
you are *damn* good at keeping things straight and in line. my claims as to the topic of these posts may easily be proven wrong...
i wish i'd been on debate team, damn! then i could have kept my shit in order....my posts are generally a drunken jigsaw of whatever i feel/think...i'm often wrong and contradict myself, but here are 2 things i can say in my defense:
1. politically, i'm very anti-U.S. even though i am a born & bred american. i do feel that we are exploitative, corrupt, and that most of the american population does not know of the horros we inflict upon others.
2. at the same time, i believe, the 6,000+ killed in the attatck certainly were not guilty for my above statement. they were innocents who died in a political attack. they were, to the opponents, pawns.
i cannot separate my emotional and political responses as they are so inherently tied to one another! what am i to think of abortion on an intellectual level? (Cruel, unjust.) What am i to think of it on a socio-economic/individual level? (Needed and justified.)
Shelli, i've been reading your posts for quite awhile and appreciate your attentiveness and ability to dissect arguments and discussions. but to be totally honest with you i post alot drunk, i post alot sober, i'm not good at forming formulaic arguments ABC, all i cab do right now is give you my wine-jigsaw-babblw response and hope that you'll make some sense of it...
i've respected your presence on te boards since i joined 6 months ago.
love,
sar
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